Small Footprint Computers

Robert Cliff writes "VIA's Mini-ITX based computers have been covered in Slashdot before, but not by this company. This product is interesting because it is a SiS based, fanless 233 MHZ system measuring only 4.75 x 6.25 x 1.9 inches, and it can run off BOTH AC and DC. If you need something larger / powerful, they have other Mini-ITX based systems, which they claim is built "on same factory that builds the cases for many high-end audio products". These guys seem to be heavily promoting Linux."

SiS

[Iron Monkey]

From my experience, at least with my vid card, SiS and linux don't mix all that well...

Bah! That thing is ugly check out

[Anonymous Coward]

this: http://www.hushtechnologies.net/

Re:SiS

[GigsVT]

SiS laptop video series don't do acceleration well under linux, but who uses the acceleration with this type of computer/chipset?

The SiS video isn't much faster than a old TNT or so, even when accelerated.

I've used Linux with ECS K7S5A and K7SEM and used the onboard video with no trouble, albiet not accelerated.

Soekris

[ziegast]

Another company uses the same concept with more of a specialty for diskless firewall products and wireless. The have good support for OpenBSD /w hardware crypto acceleration as well as Linux and FreeBSD.

http://soekris.com/

-ez

Advantech

[pokka]

If you want to build your own system, go to Advantech [advantech.com] and choose "Biscuit SBCs". They have fanless, VIA-based 667mhz computers that are roughly the size of 3.5" Hard drives. The computers include almost everything you need: audio, ethernet, VGA, TV out, IRDA, USB, IDE, and CompactFlash support. The only things you need to do yourself would be finding/building a case and finding a stable 5VDC power supply.

Re:I've been begging

[i.r.id10t]

Look into the PJRC MP3 board - http://www.pjrc.com/tech/mp3/ . No need for a full computer.

233MHz? Try 100MHz

[tbase]

From the "Details" Page: "For example, at 100 Mhz, the SiS 55x offers the same computational power as a 233Mhz MMX."

Re:Damn, I thought this was mini-itx NOT FROM VIA

[merlin_jim]

There are a couple of companies releaseing to the mini-itx standard now, but not a lot. And though others have claimed good linux support I have yet to get a distro to install on my first gen mini-itx... I've tried SuSe 7.1 personal, 7.1 pro, 8.0 pro, and Redhat 8.

For all your mini-itx goodness, checkout www.mini-itx.com daily.

Re:I've been begging

[throbbingbrain.com]

Now all I need to tack down is the touch screen LCD interface for it

Try a Matrix Orbital [matrixorbital.com] VFD. It's bright enough for viewing in direct sunlight.

It's not touchscreen, but it works well and there's already Linux based software [cajun.nu] to drive it as an MP3 jukebox

I used a VFD 20x4 display, an IRman IR reciever, and a credit card size remote control in my car. Works great.

Re:I've been begging

[YrWrstNtmr]

Now all I need to tack down is the touch screen LCD interface for it

Here ya go - EarthLCD (LCD's and kits) [earthlcd.com]
and EzScreen (Touchscreen kits) [ezscreen.com]

Re:ac _and_ dc?

[bdc0]

Not enough details provided to tell. Given the cost, I would put a part before it, e.g. a step up/down switcher [ti.com] and some caps to handle (electrical) noise.

Re:Small game machine recommendations

[merlin_jim]

E-mail me for details or questions or pictures (James {dot} McCracken {at} stratapult {dot} com), but here you go:

VIA M10000 - 1GHz Nehemiah processor (good enough) - $150
512 MB RAM (hell 256 MB is probably enough) - $???80???
HDD (size and type doesn't really matter) - $70
Video- Two options here:
1. Get a PCI video card. I know it seems archaic but they still make them and these have decent enough performance compared to having to buy a shuttle.
2. Get a PCI-AGP converter (www.mini-itx.com has them) and a half-height AGP card. Again non-ideal.

Either option is gonna cost you about the same but option 2 actual gives you more options for performance than option 1. You'll get good enough performance for most non directx-9 games with this configuration. If you splurge and get the ATI A-I-W (there's a 9000 radeon PCI version for under $100), then you can turn this machine into a TiVo for free (no additional parts required) when you're not gaming.

Morex Cubid 3677 ($60) is a REAL nice looking case and you could mod a handle into it... or for the same price, get the power supply from the Morex line of cases, and get some acrylic to custom make your own case.

Totla cost: about $460. If you can scrounge some of the parts you'll get off cheaper, of course. I went without a video card, which still gives you good enough performance... 2000 3dmark2001 score... I can play AVP2 with a lot of the eye candy turned off and the res set down to 640x480... and I ended up building it all for $250.

Re:Let me get this straight....

[Spamlent Green]

Since your problem is with Samba (which I assume is just on the LAN side), this might not really help, but I also run CC and I've had some problems with my public connection dying. I found a few suggestions on the CC forums which mostly focus on doing some bandwidth limiting to keep things from overloading. Someone there frequently suggests using a bandwidth-managing app called Wondershaper (not included with CC). Maybe that could be configured to just manage the LAN-side NIC.

Anyway, there are a few gurus on the forums there who seem willing to help -- you might just post your problem and any relevent log files (if you haven't already).

OpenBrick

[73939133]

A similar machine is the OpenBrick [openbrick.com]

One difference is that the Northtec uses a harddisk, while OpenBrick uses CF cards by default.

Does anybody have any further experience comparing these two machines?

How well does the video input on the Northtec machine work?

Re:OpenBrick

[merlin_jim]

Keep in mind that CF cards are only rated for 100,000 writes, usually.

They are not a good replacement for a hard disk. Especially if your operating system is gonna put a pagefile on it. In one test case, the MTBF was 1 month.

That's about 3,000 page swaps a day. Not unrealistic considering that these mini computers are usually underpowered on RAM...

High Performance Model

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been using their high performance (MicroServer HP) model for a few months. At 667 MHz, it is powerful enough for a wide variety of applications and is also virtually silent (the hard drive makes a very small amount of noise). They have a very unique heatsink solution that allows for fanless operation (I've had mine running for weeks without a problem). Definitely worth checking out.

Re:Too bad

[orpheus2000]

The SiS chipset is the least of your worries for this purpose. You either need an MPEG-1/2/4 hardware decoder/encoder, or a > 1Ghz processor, either of which will throw your form factor off in various ways. 233MHz is pathetic for MPEG work (yes the TiVo has a proc about that fast, but it also has embedded encode/decode chips).

The guys at MythTV [mythtv.org] have discussed this at length; there is just no small, quiet, cheap, Linux friendly way to make a TiVo. Sorry.

Re:Damn, I thought this was mini-itx NOT FROM VIA

[fishbowl]

Shuttle will run you $300 for a bare system, $700 with RAM, an Athlon XP CPU, a disk drive, and a DVD/CDRW combo, maybe you can get by for a little less. Now, the Shuttle is a hell of a good system, but that's not the point.

An EPIA-800 and a case should be closer to $125.
Big difference. But it will also run about as fast as a K6-300. Might not even be worthwhile.

I'm sure there are MiniITX systems that bridge the gap between epia-800's and Shuttle XPC's, and others that go way beyond, but I don't know about them. I do have both a Shuttle SN41G2 and an EPIA-800 box. There's really no comparison between these two, but I bought one for a toy because it was cheap, and the other for a workstation for my music studio.

Re:Portable DVD Player

[Cpt_Kirks]

Actually, I said less than $100, but the "less than" sign got cut off by slash code.

Here is one:

http://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?invtid=PCM-4

There are others, but I'm going to be a greedy pig and not reveal the source...until I get mine!

Re:Diskless terminals.

[juniorkindergarten]

Unfortunately the are in us.dollars - quote: MSRP (US$): The prices exclude installation of any software. Prices also exclude shipping.

I've been using these for about 8 months

[firewiretech]

My company has been using machines very similar to these for about 8 months now. The housing is black and silver but the exact same shape and size. They are not marketed or sold by the company mentioned in the article.

They work very well. You would think there would be heat issues packing it all in that little box, more compact and together than in a typical notebook that has more displacement area, but there are none.

We use them in 35 of our convenience stores, they hold up to the dust, dirt, and other threats in your typical c-store very well.

I like them!

Re:You better like it the way it comes...

[ocelotbob]

Who said you need to remove the cover? These machines support PXE, so all you do to recover your box to pull a kernel off the network and a minimal root filesystem, and *bam* you're in business, no drives of any sort needed. It's a bit tougher in Windows, but still very possible.

Re:Perfect for cisco router replacements.

[Loopy]

Ya know, I see this statement all the time. If it were truly the case, you'd see these boxes all over the place as low-cost replacements for a whole host of hardware devices. The main reason you don't see that is because these cheap PCs are too slow. Average latencies in the op cycles of hardware routers are in the nanosecond range, whereas most op cycles for PCs for the same work are in the millisecond range. That doesn't bode well for scalability. Granted, for most people, the extra latency wouldn't be an issue since they don't serve millions of hits per hour (or per day, even). In companies that do, it makes a big difference.

Re:Damn, I thought this was mini-itx NOT FROM VIA

[Alan Cox]

Current XFree86 has 2D drivers. I also finally figured out the remaining problem with audio and gnome today (see 2.4.21-ac3) so the sound is great.

VIA have released 3D driver source and further video stuff. I'm currnetly working with them on getting it integrated. The 3D needs other people as its XFree 4.2 not 4.3 based.

VIA seem to be quite serious about good Linux support for the EPIA/EPIA-M.

Re:$400?

[Sanction]

I just don't see how those specs could be enough. How do you install your OS without USB to hook up the boot media (most people won't set up a network boot for their NIC). Anything you run in more than text mode will require more than 32MB of RAM. I think the box would need the 128MB and USB if it is to have any versatility at all.

The main problem is that, yes, things like this are more expensive. Laptops also cost more than comperable PC's, it's about form factor. The other usual cost booster on these is a certain amount of ruggedizing, given a lot of their target markets. I just don't see how you can have a box that can run more than a handful of very limited processes with specs much lower.

Re:Portable DVD Player

[RGRistroph]

Nice, but it's not a computer monitor. That may not matter if you have TV out or something. I don't think you can hook it up the norhtec device, but some of the mini-ITX boards might have a hookup (especially the ones designed for use in building DVD players and digital video recorders).

I think there are 640x480 VGA LCDs for sale in Circuit Cellar and Nuts n' Volts and similar places. That would be fine for my purposes, which is basically a linux text-only console, but I think they are generally higher than $100. The prices will come down though.

Re:The Price Problem--It's In The Cards

[LuxuryYacht]

You can find low cost mini-ATX mainboards at O.N.E. Technologies [onelabs.com]. They produce all mainboard formats including mini-ITX mainboards at costs much lower than embedded vendors and nearer to the costs of mass produced mainboards. They will custom tailor mainboards to your specs and turn around protos in only a few weeks.

Re:Damn, I thought this was mini-itx NOT FROM VIA

[daniel23]

SuSE 7.1 looks a bit dated, doesn't it? But I'm not suggesting there is anything bad with it, I just didn't test it with mini-Itx and it may actually have been packaged before Via purchased Cyrix.
I tried w2k, Knoppix, SuSE 8.0, RedHat 7.3 and FreeBSD 4.7 on an Epia800 with some noName Ram with results degrading in that very order. Actually, w2k was stable, Knoppix dubious, SuSE a crasheroo and the rest just wouldn't do. SuSE has an memTest boot option and that finally taught me to use brand Ram. After I fed it some Micron 256mb SuSE 8.0 installed and ran acceptable.
I#m not sure if audio ever worked with SuSE as the little box runs headless as a personal server and I never have had much luck with running KDE on SuSE. With Knoppix it worked like a charm.

...in a rack, or mobile, with built-in UPS.

[leonbrooks]

This Western Australian company [motium.com.au] does a mini-ITX in what I call a 2/4RU case. The box is 2RU high and you can fit four of them together in a layer, so four units in a 2RU. I'm setting up Unit #3 to go into a datacentre today, but Motium have been too busy filling orders to put the box up on their site. I'll publish a review sometime in the next few days and offer it to SlashDot.

It includes LAN, serial, 2xUSB, parallel, 2xPS2, sound, VGA (Savage4) and composite video out. There are some other wonderful options coming which I can't yet tell you about, but amongst other things it's possible to make them completely fanless if you're happy with 533MHz and can guarantee a low environmental temperature - or a single maglev fan and any temperature you yourself can stand.

The first-run unit I'll review has Flash instead of a HDD and is also capable of taking a PSU to which you can attach a battery and treat it as a built-in UPS (or potentially run it from batteries). There is a ruggedised version of the PSU which will cope with automotive voltages (and fluctuations) but more work is needed to cope with the extreme vibration inherent in outback roads (it kills show-pony four-wheel drives, you can imagine what it would do to a computer).

/me waves to Alan and Telsa.

Re:The Price Problem--It's In The Cards

[istartedi]

OK... I've clicked all around their site, and so far I don't see any prices. In fact... I've now navigated their entire site and it's all marketing fluff. It looks like another one of those dealies where they want you to communicate with sales. I automaticly bypass those when searching. Why? Because I'm not mass producing. The time cost of interacting with sales is a factor. Also, I'm inclined to boycott any company that does business like that, because the whole point of such a strategy is to get you "engaged" and "committed to working with us". It's a form of vendor lock-in.

Now, if they can offer custom work that competes with Wincomm's pre-packaged solutions, that's great. Why don't they put some case studies, with specs and costs, on their website?If I have anything to say to sales, it's "do that, and maybe I'll get back to you".

Tiny form factor full P3 machine

[wirespring]

My company wirespring [wirespring.com] uses these [medeawiz.com] little P3 machines for kiosk and digital signage deployments all the time. They're only slightly longer than the nOrhTec product, and they're based on the i815 chipset (great linux support). Our FireCast Linux OS runs MPEG1,2 and 4 on these things great (and there's XV support to boot). Plus, if you can't live with a fan, you can pop out the Celeron/P3 and stick a VIA Eden or C3 in for silent running. On the flip side, the manufacturer [kingyoung.com.tw] also makes the product with a different case, and they even have models [kingyoung.com.tw] configured with P4s.

Re:OpenBrick

[axxackall]

RAM is cheaper than CF, so buy enough RAM. And make sure that you just boot from CF. Well, you may write (save) some application data at the end right before shutting down. But keep it read-only the rest of the day.

If you don't know how to do it than read the latest Gentoo Weekly News [gentoo.org], the section about "LiveCD on USB/CF". With Gentoo it's already clear how to it.