New G5 Power Macs "Fastest Desktop In The World" 1283
Beyond the many numbers, the bottom line is that the new machines have a new architecture, and that the memory speed is now the bottleneck, not the processor or bandwidth speeds. So they can have up to 8GB of 128-bit DDR RAM, as it is efficient to keep data in memory. The memory bandwidth is one of the most talked-about features of the new architecture.
USB 2.0 is now included, as are FireWire 400 and 800, Bluetooth, AirPort Extreme, and digital audio in and out. The 4x SuperDrive is now standard, and it can house up to 500GB of internal storage.
For video, the GeForce FX5200 is standard on low-end models, Radeon 9600 Pro on high-end models.
The case of the new machines is redesigned too, from the ground up, focusing on decreasing noise and heat. It is an aluminum enclosure, with ports for FireWire and USB on the front, and a door on the side to get into the box. It has four distinct "thermal zones" with computer-controlled cooling with its nine (yes, nine) independent fans. And it is much quieter than its predecessor.
The G5 is 10 percent slower than the P4 and Xeon in SPEC int scores in single-proc units, but 20 percent faster in FPU scores, and the dual-proc G5 beats the dual-proc Xeon in all SPEC scores.
The models are a single 1.6 GHz ($1999), single 1.8GHz ($2399), and dual 2GHz ($2999). They will ship in August. A 3GHz processor will be available from IBM in 12 months.
Apple notes that recompiling apps for the 64-bit architecture is easy, and in some cases can be done in minutes.
There was no word about the heavily anticipated redesign of the 15" PowerBooks.
Announcing 3Ghz within a year? (Score:5, Interesting)
The Dream System. (Score:5, Interesting)
â 8GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 8x1GB
â 2x250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
â ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
â Apple Cinema HD Display (23" flat panel)
â Apple Cinema HD Display (23" flat panel) + Apple DVI to ADC Adapter
â AirPort Extreme Card
â Bluetooth Module
â SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
â Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
â Mac OS X - U.S. English
â Logitech Z-680 THX 5.1 Speakers & Monster 2-meter Cable
â AirPort Extreme Base Station (with modem and antenna port)
â APP for Power Mac (w/ or w/o display) - Enrollment Kit
Subtotal $12,632.95
Fastest vaporware? (Score:0, Interesting)
Fastest desktops.. now? When you can't have one? You see, when these ships, we'll have Athlon64 on the desktop too, so you're not competing with P4s or 32bit Athlons any more.
Worlds first 64bit desktop ? (Score:4, Interesting)
So this is just my imagination ?
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/ [microsoft.com]
First? As if! (Score:3, Interesting)
I am quite sure there are some people out there who used Alpha-based workstations back when Digital made them.
Yeah right. (Score:1, Interesting)
Overtaking the "Slashdot effect" (Score:3, Interesting)
Is this the new Slashdot effect? Mac users going ballistic over Apple's latest release and posting and reloading their favorite sites continually?
On a side note, is it just me, or is the new design very "bland," even "unoriginal."
For music (Score:5, Interesting)
So, Steve, I'm going to be saving my money again to get one of your products. The last one, a 9500 bought in 1996 has lasted very well. I wish I could say the same for the Pentium PC I bought in 1997.
I look forward to making tons of recordings and music with this new rig!
SPEC results (Score:5, Interesting)
However, the most interesting part is that they used GCC to compile the SPEC suite, and not some special compiler to make hardware look good in benchmarks (in contrast to some vendor compilers). Given that all the software I run has been compiled by GCC (with the exception of a few Lisp programs), the numbers are a bit more relevant than the usual SPEC results for me.
On the other hand, you could claim that Apple chose GCC on the Intel platforms to make them look bad in this comparison...
I guess I'm a "switcher" now (Score:1, Interesting)
--zb
Oh, man - about time! (Score:5, Interesting)
From what I can tell of the WWDC pictures, things have finally changed. These things look sweet, even if they do look just like the last 5 years worth of towers. Plus it sounds like they kick ass performance-wise. All I have to do now is convince myself why I should go and drop 3 grand I can't afford for no other reason than to connect with the iPod I don't have.
Re:Worlds first 64bit desktop ? (Score:4, Interesting)
What PC and Mac users can't seem to understand is that 64-bit desktops were commonplace in the early 90s among the very large technical computing market - everything from universities to engineering firms to Hollywood studios. I am incredulous at all the hype that both Apple and Intel are spreading - for almost 10 years, it's been unusual for me to only use 32-bit processors!
I wonder how one of these Apples would stack up against an SGI Fuel with an R16K.
Re:The Dream System. (Score:5, Interesting)
Boy, if SGI and Sun were in trouble before.......
Apple is claiming Fastest SPEC (Score:5, Interesting)
normally they just brag about photoshop. but this time they're actually breaking out SPEC.
Dual 2.0 GHZ G5 is supposedly 3% faster in interger and 42% faster in FPU than a dual 3 Ghz Xeon. might be worth the premium that Apple charges.
though come to think of it, $3000 is pretty sweet. i can't imagine where you'd find a dual Xeon for $3000.
SPEC results are bogus (Score:4, Interesting)
"world's first 64-bit desktop processor" (Score:4, Interesting)
Introduced: 1995
Aquired, used, for a few hundred bucks and running on my desktop: 1998
iSight and iPod (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course it would be much easier if you could display color video on your iPod... and generate it on the fly...
The SPEC benchmark comparison is disingenuous (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, the opteron, using intel's compiler, manages to beat the 970 in int and fp.
Fastest desktop processor? No.
i just bought one (Score:2, Interesting)
Bluetooth Module
250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
Dual 2GHz PowerPC G5
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
512MB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 2x256
Apples ram prices are just silly i will pick up 4gb elsewhere
Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
Accessory kit
AirPort Extreme Card
Fibre Channel PCI Card
Mac OS X - U.S. English
Logitech Z-680 THX 5.1 Speakers & Monster 2-meter Cable
AirPort Extreme Base Station (with modem and antenna port)
iSight
total $5,273.79
Still no Workstation Class Graphics....?!?!?!?!? (Score:1, Interesting)
And how well do these Macs scale? (Score:2, Interesting)
Sun's primary market isn't 1, 2, or even necessarily 4 processor markets. Their big market is in the E10000, Sun Fire 12000, and Sun Fire 15000 machines--the smallest of which is limited to a maximum of 52 processors. While their midrange pushes up to 12 processors, and even their entry level servers can push as many as 8 processors. Not only that, but Sun machines are known for scaling incredibly well. Quite simply, Apple does not compete in these markets, IBM does, and for this level of scaling, IBM's Power4 is the high end.
If anything, Apple's highest end box is in a similar position as Sun's highest end workstations--supporting role for massive servers acting as computational farms (render and HPC--IBM's target) and high capacity transaction processing (Sun's target). Yes you can use smaller machines for some of these tasks, but when you NEED that capacity, Apple simply does not exist in that market.
To address your comparison with the Blade 2000 workstations--what if I happen to need a 3DLabs Wildcat or Oxygen graphics board for my CAD box? Can Apple support that?
Yes, one day desktop machines will catch up, but today isn't that day yet.
Bullocks! (Score:1, Interesting)
A common miscinception, which I used to share. Apples are VERY upgradeable [sonnettech.com]. There are a lot of people running OS X on ancient beige Powermacs. Having spent years in the peecee world, I know how big of a fallacy the "upgrade a piece at a time" theory is -- I generally wound up gutting the machine every year and a half, keeping only the case (if that) and drives. I fully expect to get a lot more life out of my Macs than that, and spend a lot less time screwing around with them in the interim.
Re:For music or otherwise (Score:4, Interesting)
That's the painful part about Macs. They keep putting out these machines with a high drool factor that you just have to buy, but the old one is still more than adequate. What to do, what to do. . . .
That's great.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Why only 8-gig of RAM? 64-bit CPUs supports terabytes. I guess it's not a server, but 8 gig isn't that much any more.
Some comparisons with the Opteron (or, to be more fair, Athalon64) would be nice. Of course, since you can (or will be able to) select from a slew of motherboards, it will be tough to get a decent comparison.
One other thought just struck me (I can feel a bruise developing) - Apple never releases their stuff to independant hardware vendors. Never seen an Apple product (other than an iPod) reviewed at Anandtech, Toms Hardware, TechExtreme, Ars Technica, etc. Would be interesting to hear what a site like that had to say.
Re:3 drive bays?! (Score:2, Interesting)
LET ME PUT IT ALL TO REST FOR THE IDIOTS OUT THERE (Score:1, Interesting)
Apple's SPEC scores are false. (Score:1, Interesting)
They say they're specing against "3.06 GHz Dual Xeon-based Dell Precision 650".
According to Apple, the Precision 650 has a SPECint of 836 with a SPECint_rate of 16.7, and a SPECfp of 646 and a SPECfp_rate of 11.1.
But according to Spec, the Precision 650 has a SPECint of 1089, with a SPECint_rate of 21.7, and a SPECfp of 1053, with a SPECfp_rate of 15.7
Which puts the Dell Precision 650 FAR ahead of the Dual G5... I can't believe there are such blatant lies on Apples website.
Re:Yeah right. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The Dream System. (Score:2, Interesting)
However, if I were a semiconductor company (I worked at one), I'd be banging on the vendors doors right now to do a port.
- Cheap 64-bit computing
- Easy to use office software
A lot of us used to either run 2 machines (1 SUN and 1 PC for documentation) or run 1 SUN and huge-ass Citrix server for every small group.
You could do away with that in one swipe.
1 Mac for engineering and documentation (and other stuff). Decreased maintenance!
Yes, HP, Sun should be running scared right now.
Previously we would not even consider switching to PC's for engineering work because it was not stable enough (when you _need_ your machine to stay up for days), and because of the scripts.
OS X, *BSD and *NIX script compatible and stable and easy to use. YEAH!
Re:Knock yourself out! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Huh? (Score:1, Interesting)
Comparison for Mid-High End Gaming machine? (Score:5, Interesting)
$85 - AMD XP 2600+
$140 - 1 Gig (2x512) Kingston 2700 DDR ram
$150 - Chaintech Nforce2 board (raid 0, surruond sound, ethernet)
$160 - 160 GB (2x80) Western Digital Special Edition drives, 7200rpm, striped raid 0 for speed
$360 - Radeon 9800 pro 128
$230 - Sony DRU-500A mutliformat DVD burner
$120 - some descent computer case
$180 - Win XP
$50 - Descent keyboard and mouse
Total - $1475
A comparable (except obvious diff of OS and processor) 1.6 Ghz Apple system comes to $2820, and that's without the raid harddrive setup. How much better is the apple system going to do at games? I realize that's not the entire (or even a big part) of the computer market, but it is MY market
Re:Announcing 3Ghz within a year? (Score:4, Interesting)
Indeed it is laughable that Mot would be able to turn out something with that high of a clock rate a year from now, but for IBM I'd be highly surprised if it doesn't happen.
Re:The Dream System. (Score:1, Interesting)
That's still a requirement I have for any serious workstation. I wonder if the G5-based Xserves that will eventually be released will have ECC?
Re:Announcing 3Ghz within a year? (Score:5, Interesting)
I compared the specs with a Dual Xeon System from dell, and the G5 was almost $1000 less.
It's even cheaper to get a dual 2Ghz G5 than an "Ultimate" G4.
Apple Posts G5 Performance Primer (Score:2, Interesting)
I agree (Score:2, Interesting)
Everything about the Mac shines, except software tittles available, but give it time, something Apple (NOW) has!
I can't wait for the 3Ghz versions to come out, so I can snap up one the 2Ghz at heavily reduced price.
Re:I'm Jealous (Score:3, Interesting)
Speaking for Synopsys (I worked there in the 90s), the migration from Unix to NT was a mid-90s thing that was driven more by industry perception ("Unix is dead; time to move to NT!") than customer demand. The rise of Linux stopped that dead in its tracks. Synopsys's "primary platforms" are now SPARC Solaris, HPUX and Red Hat Linux, and have been for years. NT support, where it exists, is considered "secondary" (along with DEC Alpha, AIX, etc.). I've worked in two EDA startups since then, and neither has seriously considered releasing Windows software (SPARC and Linux are the big players, with HPUX coming in a distant third).
Linux support was driven by customer demand. Once there was enough demand, the folks at Synopsys got over their Linuxphobia ("all Linux users build their own custom kernels! How can we support that ?!?") and started releasing Linux ports.
If you want a MacOS X port of EDA software, and you are a user of EDA software, talk to your vendor. If enough people ask, there will be a port. Though not without some resistence: there are quite a few people in this industry for whom the important thing is not that the box be fast and run Unix, but that it not have that fruity little logo on the front. But that opinion will change given enough cash.
Probably Solaris. I wonder how much Apple has leaned on their software vendors for OS X ports. Not enough, apparently.
Where is the PB G5 15"? (Score:5, Interesting)
1. The 12" (or perhaps the 17") motherboard could fit in the 15" case, so from a tech standpoint, I can't see the motherboard design being 6+ months behind that of the 12" (or 17"), it would be nearly impossible to be that far behind.
2. Steve wants to be the first to ship a 64 bit portable. (No one is closer than Apple now).
3. Bluetooth, AirPort Extreme. Plenty of people want those in a portable, but don't want a 12" screen or a 17" screen. (me for one
All this points to the fact that something significant is going on. It is something like the G5 or, perhaps, a higher-density screen. I doubt it would be the higher-density screen because that should NOT be that huge a tech issue, and I can't believe they'd delay the product 6+ months for that when they could've shipped it with a regular screen and then updated it now.
My scenario about the 15" delays is this:
They intentionally held back on the 15" in Jan/Feb 2003 and kept it as it was so that if there were huge problems with the 12" and 17" (e.g. long(er) delays, engineering/manuf issues etc) they'd have a proven machine that was shipping. They were planning that the PB 15 was supposed to be updated in May at WWDC with a G5 (or very shortly thereafter) and so didn't waste any design and engineering resources on updating it to the specs of the current 12" and 15" because (back then it would have been May 2003 for WWDC, so only about 3 months wait for it). They intended to make it the 1st 15" G5 and have it ready with the PM G5s.
However, they are a little behind for some reason, just like they were with the PM G5s - that's why they pushed back WWDC a month.
Until they know when they can ship them in volume they're not announcing it for at least two reasons: avoid killing 12", 15" and 17" sales; and so they'll get even more bang for the buck when the announce "the world's first 64-bit portable," just like they got with the "world's 1st 17 inch portable". It will be on its own and won't get overshadowed by the PM G5s.
Face it, Apple loses sales because of some of the factors above and they don't want to lose sales. Therefore there is some BIG reason for the delay. The only logical one is a 15" PB G5, followed as quickly thereafter as possible with a 17" ("The world's 1st 64-bit 17 inch portable) and a 12" ("The world's smallest 64-bit portable). Followed thereafter by G4 iBooks.
I can see a 15" PB G5 announcement within 1-3 months (e.g. by the end of the summer). Apple *has* to do something to update the 15" PB to current specs (speed, AEX, Bluetooth) and if they've invested engineering in the PB G5 they don't have time to go back and do the engineering to make it a G4 - which is why I think it will be soon. If it was going to be > 3 months then they'd have time to do a 15" G4 to match the 17", BUT then they would've done it well before now.
I don't think it is wishful thinking because Apple is not dumb. They wouldn't hold up 15" PB sales for more than 6 months without a great reason. (Plus I read somewhere that 15" PB supplies were low.)
Apple blowing smoke up everyones arse again! (Score:2, Interesting)
I find it kinda strange how the SPEC results varied quite markedly between what Intel [intel.com] had listed and what was on display on the Apple [apple.com] website. So, I decided to look into it. First thing I did was goto Veritest's site and look at how they did the benchmark [veritest.com].
I noticed something odd... Veritest decided to run TWO different tests in the P4, one with and without Hyper-Threading enabled. Hyper-Threading is enabled by default on the P4 processor. Odd.
Then I decided to goto www.Spec.org [spec.org] and do a benchmark search for Intel P4:
SPEC.org results:
SPECint2000 [spec.org] : 1200
SPECfp2000 [spec.org] : 1229
SPECint_rate2000 [spec.org] : 14.1
SPECfp_rate2000 [spec.org] : 13.7
Apple.com results:
SPECint2000 : 889
SPECfp2000 : 693
SPECint_rate2000 : 10.3
SPECfp_rate2000 : 8.07
And yes, I did choose the latest results for the Intel P4.
It is very clear that the results obtained by Veritest and put forth in their report is of a P4 3.06 GHz with Hyper Threading DISABLED. The last I checked, HT is a feature which is enabled by default. WHY would someone purposely disable HT? Purposely make their CPU run SLOWER? Hmmm...
Come on Apple, do a serious system comparison, the best versus the best. Not the best versus a crippled system.
Re:New Apple PC Sun Workstation (Score:2, Interesting)
Not entirely. They have the power, and surely they may be adopted
in some instances, but in many cases Sun workstations are installed
as part of a package deal ("enterprise solution") with the Sun
servers and business-field-specific application suites. These
suites of business software in some cases are specifically written
for Solaris (not Unix in general, but Solaris specifically). The
G5 isn't going to be compatible for that, so it would be not just
an upgrade-type replacement but a full switch.
So there will be Sun workstations for years to come. A similar
argument applies to AlphaStations (though there are fewer of
those than SparcStations, and VMS may be passing away faster
than Solaris, what with the nested buyout and resulting FUD).
> It will take an excellent sales and marketing team
That part Apple could handle, but to break into the workstations
market they'd have to sell their platform to solutions vendors,
who would then in turn target it with their next major product
line, which would be 2-4 years out from release in most cases,
and after it's released most of the customer sites drag their
feet for 2-4 years before doing the migration.
For example, in the field of library automation software: some
time in the mid 90s Microsoft managed to sell Gaylord Information
Systems (makers of the Galaxy library catalog/circulation suite)
on the merits of going from VMS to NT. Circa 2000 GIS announced
the release of Polaris, their replacement for Galaxy. There are
still *way* more Galaxy installations than Polaris at this time.
The library where I work is not planning to move from Galaxy for
two more years at least. Ad interim, we're still buying DEC
hardware, maintaining a maintenance contract with HP (who own
Compaq and thus DEC).
[I'm about to seem to wander off-topic, but it relates back...]
Oh, and I would prefer to change jobs before we migrate to
Polaris, for three reasons. One, all the staff have to be
retrained, and Polaris will require mouse and GUI use, and
some of our staff are sufficiently technophobic that this is
an excruciating prospect. Galaxy tells 'em what buttons to
push (literally: the word printed on the key on the keyboard
appears in inverse video after "Press "), but Polaris requires
knowledge of how standard widgets work -- scrollbars, drop-down
lists ([shudder]),
catalog terminals (VT510s) with Windows PCs -- a bunch of
extra Windows PCs out in parts of the library where patrons
have unobserved physical access to them, whee. Three, the
web catalog will run on IIS. Oh, and four, VMS is solid (in
terms of never needing any maintenance, other than changing
out the backup tape, and never stopping running unless the
hardware breaks -- every VMS problem I've seen was hardware
failure); I'm less confident about NT, even recent versions
of NT. ObTopic...
As you can imagine, IT folks (and even execs) in various other
industries may feel similarly about switching from what they
know and are comfortable with ("FooSolution", which runs on
Solaris or whatever) to something else different. So it takes
years for the vendors to get all their customers migrated.
That means _even after_ a new server & workstation maker sells
their platform to the ISVs, it's _years_ before the revenue
pours in.
So, just because the G5 is as powerful as a SPARC and a lot
cheaper doesn't mean the SparcStations will all be replaced
with PowerMacs any time soon.
Re:Still easy to open (Score:2, Interesting)
mind I'm talking just about the cases, but those new Dell models,
the cases *rock*. You push in two easy buttons, and the thing
opens just like a book. Drives on one side, motherboard on the
other side -- so the drives don't block access to any part of it.
Very very cool. If I were buying a prebuilt PC (instead of
building my own, as all true geeks do in order to individually
select each component) I would be seriously tempted to get a Dell
just so as to have a nice case to work with. Apple should make
cases like that (but with more Apple-ish external decoration; the
Dell cases look okay, but they don't look Applish, if you know
what I mean).
Re:denied (look at ADC) (Score:1, Interesting)
Now, rationalize it by getting that discount on a G5, going to WWDC next year, buying an iPod (30gb for $399), perhaps getting a second machine, etc.
If you're a developer, the hardware disccounts you get can add up pretty quick. And then there's the software seeding, etc...