Apple Marketing Hypes New PowerMacs 1022
Wacky_Wookie was only one of many who wrote in with a mention of Apple's "leak" of specifications for a new line of PowerMacs to be dubbed "G5", apparently running the new PowerPC 970 CPUs. No offense, but anyone who thinks it was a mistake or leak doesn't understand marketing. :) Update by J : In case those linked sites get taken down too, try
MacNN.
Macminute took down the specs screenshot (Score:5, Informative)
Also more on the story here [thinksecret.com].
Re:My analysis of why this is fake. (Score:5, Informative)
the posted specs went far beyond the expectations of...anyone.
To spell it out: the specs (Score:5, Informative)
* Up to 1 Ghz processor bus (!!)
* Up to 8 GB of DDR SDRAM
* Fast Serial ATA hard drives
* AGP 8X Pro graphics options from NVIDIA or ATI
* Three PCI or PCI-X expansion slots
* Three USB 2.0 ports
* One FireWire 800, two FireWire 400 ports
* Bluetooth & Airport Extreme ready
* Optical and analog audio in and out
Quite a leap from the current dual 1.42Ghz G4 boxes, with a 166Mhz bus...
The specs are on Apple's Support forums (Score:2, Informative)
A little history lesson... (Score:5, Informative)
* ATI leaks news of updated PowerMac G4s (and summarily gets poor product placement in them afterwards, with Apple favoring Nvidia for years to come)
* Time Canada posts story of new flat-panel iMac before paper issue even hits the streets.
I'm sure there have been more, but those seem to be the most important.
This one will go down as probably the most significant leak in quite a while.
G5 name is taken.... (Score:3, Informative)
Otherwise, with those specs, it's about time. When it does come out, it will at least give Intel/AMD a run for the money (remember, the 64 bit stuff will be out by then), instead of eating their dust.
Re:My analysis of why this is fake. (Score:1, Informative)
Re:My analysis of why this is fake. (Score:5, Informative)
a lot of G4's shipped with just. plain. awful sound cards. this is welcome news.
Maybe, maybe not. (Score:5, Informative)
Newsflash, kiddo: neither Motorola nor IBM sell a CPU called the "G4". "G4" was a "marchitechture" term coined by Apple in the spirit of Motorola's internal "G3" codename for the PPC750. The chip inside any "PowerMac G4" is some flavor of a Motorola PowerPC 7400, no matter what Apple calls it.
You can pretty much bet the farm that Apple will call every varient of the PPC970 they ship a "PowerPC G5".
1GHz bus? gimme a break. Intel hasn't yet reached this. Two points impossible.
Ahem. [hypertransport.org] ("1ghz" is probably apple marketing-speak, but it's always been known that the PPC970 will have a stupidly fast FSB -- Intel isn't the only company that can innovate in this field, eh?)
Almost believable, but for the moment Apple are phasing out the use of NVIDIA cards in their machines.
Simply and 100% wrong. Apple has been doing pretty much exactly the same thing for the last three years on this front: providing whichever of the two offered them the best OEM pricing as the default configuration, and offering the other as a build-to-order option. They will continue to do this.
Also, Apple have a long standing habit of using Firewire instead of USB 2.0
Here, you may be correct, but there are two issues that may force them to start shipping "USB 2.0" connectors: first, the USB consortium has recently declared [theinquirer.net] that all USB ports are "USB 2.0" (yes, this is weird and stupid), and secondly it's actually getting a bit difficult to source USB controllers that only support the 1.0/1.1 specs.
Once again use of the verbal "One" instead of the numeric. Only one FW800 port? Why would Apple stick with FireWire 400 anyway? I mark this impossible
FW400 and FW800 use different connectors, and there are not yet many FW800 products on the market. This is called "covering your bets" and "not pissing off your customers". BTW, 1x FW800 and 2x FW400 is also the configuration on the 17" AlBook, so they've already shipped one machine in exactly this "impossible" configuration.
optical audio in a graphics machine? I'm sorry but this sounds like wishful thinking.
No, it sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about. Do you have any idea how many macs are used in audio production? Are you aware that Apple sells their own high-end audio composition program [apple.com]? The only surprise about a PowerMac with optical TOSlink is that they didn't do it years ago.
Re:My analysis of why this is fake. (Score:2, Informative)
For more credibility... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:But... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:My analysis of why this is fake. (Score:5, Informative)
Bzzt. Wrong.
G3 and G4 are both Apple marketing terms, not CPU specifications from IBM or Moto.
IBM was expecting low yields of the 2ghz chip but it was always on the roadmap for this year... or have you not been paying attention?
I'm writing this on a Powerbook G4, not a Powerbook 7450 (PPC 7450 is Motos term for the cpu running this beastie).
1GHz bus? gimme a break. Intel hasn't yet reached this. Two points impossible
Bzzt. Wrong. One word for you:
Hypertransport.org
The FSB runs at half the clockspeed of the CPU. A dual 2ghz 970 would have FSB of 1ghz.
The rest of Apples site would say "3 USB Ports" not "Three". Also, Apple have a long standing habit of using Firewire instead of USB 2.0. I take this as one point impossible
The current G4s ship with USB 2.0 chipsets. Firewire and USB2 are NOT in competition. THey have different applications. If you don't belive me, then I ask you to point to a USB2 uncompressed SDI interface? Oh. YOu can't? Shit.
Once again use of the verbal "One" instead of the numeric. Only one FW800 port? Why would Apple stick with FireWire 400 anyway? I mark this impossible
My dual 1.4ghz G4 has a FW800 port and two FW400s. FW800 is a different physical interface than FW400. I'm sure the chipset is also slightlly more expensive.
Bad grammar, but optical audio in a graphics machine? I'm sorry but this sounds like wishful thinking. One more point impossible.
Marketing has always made a habit of playing with grammar.
Macs are not just graphics machine. In fact, the dual 1.4ghz mentioned above is primarily an audio workstation. It has digital audio out already on board.
Optical in/out is a surprise, but not unlikely - it has its advantages.
This is accurate. Like it or not. Apple is back in town where it belongs - on the top.
Re:My analysis of why this is fake. (Score:3, Informative)
Wow let's take this one point at a time...
It's not a G5, it's a PPC970, completely different beasts. Not to mention neither Motorola or IBM have 2GHz chips in their roadmap until 2005. Bzzzt One point impossible
Errr... From a marketing perspective G5 is better then 970, it's also consistant with how Apple have named PPC processors in the past, so Bzzzt minnus one for you Plus one for Apple.
1GHz bus? gimme a break. Intel hasn't yet reached this. Two points impossible
Wow! I don't know where to begin with this one. If you really understood anything you were talking about you would know two things: 1. The 970 bus speed runs 1/2 the speed of the processor, so for a 2Ghz Processor, 1 Ghz sounds about right. 2. WTF does Intel have to do with anything? Apple has worked with AMD on the Hypertrasport BUS which should (and apparently does) toast Intel (And Intel has been slower then most with BUS speed lately anyway, even little VIA who have a fraction of the budget of Intel/AMD/ or Apple
The rest of Apples site would say "3 USB Ports" not "Three". Also, Apple have a long standing habit of using Firewire instead of USB 2.0. I take this as one point impossible
Apple was first with USB, and many many many Apple peripherals use USB (i.e. Keyboard and Mouse to name a few important ones). The cost of USB 1.1 vs 2.0 is about nothing so it's a no brainer to use USB 2.0. Also Since you seem to have grammatical issues the image (see below) "three" is grammatically correct "3" isn't.
Almost believable, but for the moment Apple are phasing out the use of NVIDIA cards in their machines. I highly doubt they'll be used. Half a point impossible
Apple isn't phasing out Nvidia, Have you read the specs for the newest Powerbooks? They use Nvidia instead of tradtional ATI. Apple has offered choice in desktop G4 systems for awhile. (It's Microsoft who are phasing out Nvidia in the next XBox)
Once again use of the verbal "One" instead of the numeric. Only one FW800 port? Why would Apple stick with FireWire 400 anyway? I mark this impossible
You and your verbal numbers... get a life. I don't know where you are coming from on this one. The Apple spes are perfectly logical and similar to the latest 17" PowerBooks
Bad grammar, but optical audio in a graphics machine? I'm sorry but this sounds like wishful thinking. One more point impossible
In a graphics machine? Well they are great at graphics, so I'll give you that, but have you ever heard of Digidesign ProTools? How about Apple's own Logic? How about the fact Apple has an entire segment devoted to Music right off there home page (and only part of it it the music store and iPod)? Apple is doing Music big time, and at a very high professional level, optical audio is an unexpected, but very logical addition to the G5
Hmm... there go your 4 1/2 half impossible points (or whatever? heck this is almost desperate... are you the person from Apple who accidently posted this in the first place and this is a lame attempt to counteract the damage before Steve fires your ass?)
Re:Parent is deluded (Score:4, Informative)
Bad grammar, but optical audio in a graphics machine? I'm sorry but this sounds like wishful thinking. One more point impossible.
This one does puzzle me slightly, but Apple don't consider their machines "graphics machines". Macs are all-purpose. It's no fault of Apple if they are pigeonholed by others as "only for graphics". Also, even if they were "graphics machines," video editing kind of requires sound..."
Not only that, but unless you've been living in a hole, you'd know that within the last year, Apple has purchased Logic [apple.com]. This computer would compliment that nicely.
They're not pigonholed for just graphics (Score:5, Informative)
There are many uses in non-consumer audio for optical i/o. I mean, shit, my cheap little Shuttle Spacewalker has a coinnector card for optical audio. For them to include it now is obviously smart since we know they're also targeting more musicians (specifically dj's) now as well as graphics people.
Frankly, this guys 'impossible' post is a lot of bullshit for many reasons listed above and throughout.
I now must find a way to ditch my PB G4 1ghz. G5, here I come! *drools*
Re:My analysis of why this is fake. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:My analysis of why this is fake. (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, I can see why they'd want to keep 400s. The 800 connector is different from the standard 400 cable, and even with the availability of adapters to convert from 400->800, it's still easier for them to simply include 400s on the computer so people who buy it can plug their devices in as soon as they assemble the computer, rather than having to go out and buy a special cable just to use their cameras, etc.
Re:Yay! (Score:5, Informative)
I can't wait to grab one of these new Apples - good work Apple & IBM, I say!
Re:The specs are on Apple's Support forums (Score:1, Informative)
this may enforce the impression that it is an internal mistake.
VDM
Re:mmmmm, NUMA! (Score:1, Informative)
The only difference is that the MacOS(OSX included) is not CHRP-compliant. It requires a Mac ROM(or modern equivalent). LinuxPPC(RIP) has been around for a long time, and there are at least 3 other Linux distros for PPC that I can think of(and they're current!). I bet you could get other PPC OSes running on a Mac with little trouble(I haven't tried, so I don't know for sure).
I'm quite sure Apple hasn't abandoned PPRP/CHRP.
*PPRP stands for PowerPC Reference Platform, and was a precursor to CHRP back in the early days of Mac clones.
Re:New Mac (Score:5, Informative)
http://osx.freshmeat.net/
True, not all of the 28,888 projects on freshmeat run on Mac OS X. But the OS X-specific section continues to grow, and many *nix applications have been ported or simply work already.
Optical Audio == mLAN (Score:5, Informative)
mLAN essentially allows the transfer of all audio-related signals - be they MIDI, audio, whatever - over 1 firewire cable.
yamaha press release, mlan, 2000 [yamaha.com] [opens in new window]
Now, why would Apple release a G5-based PPC with a dedicated mLAN port? I think Apple's hiring of Doug Wyatt - the guy who invented MIDI Timecode at Opcode - as well as Apple's aquisition of eMagic - in addition to their collaboration with Yamaha on the mLAN spec - would give Apple every incentive to put an 'mLAN' port on the back of their computer, even if it is only another firewire port.
Keep in mind that OSX has MIDI capability built-in - unlike any other OS. ALso, with the addition of a simple mLAN port, Apple can now state that their PPC is music-production ready right out of the box.
Doug Wyatt hired by apple [xmidi.com]
eMagic Corporate info [emagic.de]
Re:PCI-X ??? Already ??? (Score:3, Informative)
You're looking at PCI-X 2.0, which will run at 266/533MHz (and higher) when it's released. The PCI-X 1.0 spec (66/133MHz) is not as insanely fast as 2.0 or Express, but it has the slight advantage of being already in use [google.com].
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Insane speed! (Score:4, Informative)
Almost. The dual 2GHz G5 would be like a 6-10 GHz Pentium 4.
Quite honestly, this would be true of any dual 2GHz UltraSPARC III, Itanium 2, or recent Alpha (if these CPUs ran that that clock rate). If you extrapolate the numbers at spec.org, the Pentium 4 looks really weak by comparison (e.g., the Alpha fp-rate numbers blew me away--it's really too bad HP is marketing the Itanic). Even the often-slammed UltraSPARC III is a fp-rate monster (it just lags in the integer stuff).
Re:Nope--no CAD software (Score:5, Informative)
None to be found anywhere. [architosh.com]
Certainly no links to be found about Mac CAD. [thearchitectureroom.com]
What a shame.
Re:My analysis of why this is fake. (Score:2, Informative)
Live Broadcast at apple.com/quicktime/qtv/wwdc03 (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/wwdc03/
Re:Optical Audio == mLAN (Score:2, Informative)
Sounds more like Apple have built TosLink into Macs. Roll on 5.1 Surround Sound out of the DVD Player!
Re:Live Broadcast at apple.com/quicktime/qtv/wwdc0 (Score:3, Informative)
That will not be a live broadcast.
Apple will run a loop of the broadcast starting a few hours after the live presention is over.
Re:Parent is deluded (Score:3, Informative)
Yes it is backwards compatible. It does use an improved connector, but I believe they currently ship 800/400 adapters with all of their Macs that have 800 on them. The reason to still have 400 on it is that it typically hasn't been maxxed out yet and the iPod still has a 400 connector on one end.
Re:Optical Audio == mLAN (Score:3, Informative)
Re:excellent, Smithers (Score:3, Informative)
The performance will be quite different from your P4/2.8, as well. Until realworld benchmarks on real production machines come out, comparing an PPC970 Apple to an Intel or AMD machine is really quite silly. And that's not even comparing a 64-bit OS X (which by rumours may be _after_ the 64-bit hardware).
I doubt the prices will change much. Apple's prices have little to do with how much the CPU costs (and the CPUs probably cost less than the previous Moto chips). That's what the market will bear, so that's what they charge. *shrug*
Re:Yay! (Score:5, Informative)
The PPC970 wit its Power4 core, clocked at 1.6GHz completely trashes a 3GHz P4. Faster bus, faster integer, and completely outclasses the P4 for FPU and SIMD.
And it looks like Apple's going to ship a dual 2.0 GHz. This ain't your grandma's G4 (In fact, at the same clock, it looks like the PPC970 has a 1.5x or more advantage for integer and 2-2.5x advantage for FPU/SIMD over the G4, and the G4 is, clock-for-clock, the fastest CPU currently in the desktop and laptop market, it's only real disadvantages are low clock speed and the slow system bus, both of which are problems the PPC970 doesn't have).
Remember that Athlon is only clocked a couple of hundred MHz faster than the 970, and isn't nearly as fast, clock-for-clock.
Re:Well then... (Score:2, Informative)
system 6/7/Win 3.1/95 release dates (Score:3, Informative)
Jun 1988: Mac OS 6.0
Oct 1990: Mac OS 6.0.7
May 1991: Mac OS 7.0
Oct 1991: Windows 3.0
Apr 1992: Windows 3.1
Aug 1992: Mac OS 7.1
June 1994: Mac OS 7.5
Aug 1995: Windows 95
Mac OS 6.x and Windows 3.1 never went head to head as shipping operating systems - Mac OS 7.0 was released nearly 6 months before even Win 3.0 . Win 95 didn't make an appearance for four and a half years after System 7.0.
mac prices (Score:4, Informative)
macs *usually* fall into a pricing structure and somewhat stay the same after updates. it's not like these (if they are real) will be stacked on top of the current machine's prices and start at $4,000..... the G4 some poor citizen buys today will be dropped in price by hundreds of dollars monday if these show up. sometimes they sort of shift up and down a step according to conditions of the market. For example, for a long time there has been an emac/imac right at or around $999. I guess this pricing method is what caused their price protection deal where if you buy a machine and the price officially drops in 2 or 4 weeks (depends on who you ask?) they will refund the change.
Re:Insane speed! (Score:3, Informative)
UltarSPARC III got a high fprate by having the only compiler that was smart enough to run a loop in one of the benchmarks 'backwards', so the array striding occurred efficiently. If you look at the individual scores, you'll see one that stands out as an outlier.
Basically, US III is a fairly slow processor - despite any marketing hype from Sun.
Re:Yay! (Score:5, Informative)
Oh, you want to compare 32bit P4s to 64bit 970s? Why, because you're really in the market for a 32 bit processor and need to distort everything into a P4=center of the universe worldview. Grow up. Something new is coming. It will likely run rings around Itanium. It *may* run rings around the P4s for stock 32bit applications and will very likely beat it when comparing code that's similarly optimized for the two chips.
Let's see it unveiled and let's see the benchmarks then let the chip wars begin again!
Listen (Score:2, Informative)
Re:G5 Specs (Score:2, Informative)
Hard to answer, it depends on what you are doing.
For integer performance the PPC 970 should be around 1.3-1.5x clock for clock against a P4. For floating point it should be around 1.4-1.6x clock for clock against a P4. For SIMD (vector calculations) it could well into 2+x clock for clock (don't have solid numbers for this). This is based on SPECint2000 & SPECfp2000 published/estimated numbers and assume linear scaling with clock speed, neither of which is true in general.
In other words a PPC 970 @ 2GHz aligns approx. with a P4 @ 3GHz for int and floating point and a P4 @ 4+GHz for SIMD.
Also the PPC 970 can move a little more data over its FSB then a P4 can at the moment (assuming the PPC 970 @ 2GHz is true). P4s @ 3GHz can move around 6.4GB/s and PPC 970 @ 2GHz can move around 7.1GB/s (for the later I am accounting for overhead, not sure if the P4 numbers are doing the same).
Anyway we will have to see how things do once they get out into the real world. At the least the new PowerMacs should be on par with P4 based systems.
Nope not PCI Express but most likely the existing PCI-X standard (133MHz/64bit).
Very unlikely. Most likely he will show off 64 bit support, PPC 970 optimizations, HyperTransport support, evolutionary extensions to the audio sub-system, evolutionary (possibly revolutionary) extensions to Quartz 2D / QuartzExtreme, and a few new things that we havn't really thought of, etc.
Re:Optical Audio == mLAN (Score:4, Informative)
A dedicated "mLAN port" makes no sense. It's a FireWire port, why confuse the issue? Just put a third FireWire port on and be done with it.
Yamaha's mLAN is currently only a specification for connection management; FireWire audio specs are covered by various standards organizations (though many were originally developed at Yamaha as part of mLAN). MIDI is covered in the FireWire audio specs as well.
Re:64 bit? (Score:3, Informative)
As the other reply to your poster noted, the maximum addressable physical memory on a machine with 32-bit virtual addresses can be >4GB, and is, in fact, >4GB on several processors, including the PowerPC's he mentioned, as well as Pentium Pro and later x86's from Intel (and probably some 32-bit x86's from AMD as well).
Only 4GB of it can be accessed at any time, however, as linear virtual addresses are 32 bits. If you're trying to use more than 4GB of physical memory, you have to map it in and out of that 4GB window. (The segmentation hardware on x86's doesn't help, as it translates 48-bit segmented addresses into 32-bit linear virtual addresses; you'd have to mark segments that don't fit into that address space "not present", and map the pages of those segments into and out of the 4GB window in response to "segment not present" faults.)
That could be done directly by privileged code, and could be done with system calls such as mmap in non-privileged code.
Re:Don't believe it. (Score:3, Informative)
My guess is they have SATA. We do, and we're smaller than Apple.
Re:New Mac Complaints (Score:1, Informative)
yes [blizzard.com], yes (scroll to bottom) [blizzard.com], yes-yes-yes [strategyplanet.com], yes [apple.com], and yes [mac-gaming.com] to the titles you mention by name.
Emulation options exist for every platform you mention.