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Handhelds Hardware

New Palms: Zire 71 and Tungsten C 221

Posted by michael from the stuff-to-fidget-with dept.
securitas writes "Today Palm released their latest in the PDA arms race: the Zire 71 and the Tungsten C. The Zire gets a color screen, digital camera and multimedia capabilities such as MP3 playback and 640x480 VGA video playback -- interesting since the screen is 320x320. The Tungsten C gets 802.11b (WiFi) connectivity and a VPN client to protect your data while in transit. More at InternetNews, PC World and Business Week/CNet."
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New Palms: Zire 71 and Tungsten C More

New Palms: Zire 71 and Tungsten C

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  • NO Bluetooth (Score:5, Interesting)

    by makapuf ( 412290 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @09:47AM (#5789026)
    It's a shame such a prodoct doesn't have bluetooth : I think It would have been much cheaper and battery saving than to use WiFi ?
    Any Ideas why it hasn't been included ?
    Besides, it's important noting those PDA have an integrated keyboard.

    • Re:NO Bluetooth (Score:4, Informative)

      by rosbif ( 71236 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @10:01AM (#5789114)
      Because Bluetooth is for connecting peripherals together, 802.11 is for providing TCP/IP-style networking. I could see Bluetooth for connecting your wireless headset (maybe), however you can get Bluetooth cards for this.
      • Bluetooth can also be used to sync a Palm with iSync on a Mac.

    • Re:NO Bluetooth (Score:5, Informative)

      by DrXym ( 126579 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @10:02AM (#5789119)
      Well the Palm Tungsten A has bluetooth so take your pick. No doubt Palm will be selling expansions that provide the missing functionality if you absolutely have to have both.


      Of the two I would guess that 802.11b is much more useful for places like restaurants / shops etc. that might use wireless for stock control or whatever. Bluetooth is neat but how many people have other devices to sync up with? Personally I'd just prefer 802.11b.

      • Re:NO Bluetooth (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Alan Partridge ( 516639 )
        yeah, but the (much more attractive) Tungsten T DOESN'T use the faster(?) CPU. This is a really dumb move by Palm - their Tugsten T product is REALLY nice, but using a different (better?) CPU in the C naturally causes one to ask "why shouldn't I just wait for them to upgrade the T to the newer Xscale chip?".

        So which is better? OMAP or Xscale? And why is the C so fugly?

        • Ugly (Score:2, Interesting)

          by Oculus Habent ( 562837 )
          I may be crazy, but I don't want a miniature keypad that mimics Graffiti! If your interaction system is designed around pen-based text input and you get rid of the pen-based text input isn't it time to re-design the interface?!

          Graffiti is easy to learn and becomes accurate with use - I don't want a keyboard in my pocket.

          • Re:Ugly (Score:2, Interesting)

            by Alan Partridge ( 516639 )
            I tend to agree. I'm a Newton 2100 veteran, and always found that a pen based system - if done properly - has certain features that are impossible to equal using a keyboard/pointer combination. Pen interfaces have drawbacks too, but I still have never found a match for the Newton (paper excepted) when it comes to note taking on the go. My Tungsten T has Bluetooth as it's main USP for me - Palm's implementation JUST WORKS - and this finally makes a mobile email solution for me that hits the spot. The Palm ju
      • Well I happen to have Bluetooth on my laptop. Would be nice to use and I suspect would be easier on batteries than 802.11b for palm type devices. Plus it would be nifty to have my cell, palm and laptop all able to communicate without any wires or other silliness. (too bad the software on my laptop, mozilla in this case, isn't up to the job yet)

        But you are right in that it is definitely less common. Most folks would have to get a Bluetooth USB key or something similar to make it work. Not a big problem
        • Uh, what does Mozilla have to do with anything? Surely bluetooth integration would/should be handled by the OS?


          Rich

          • Mozilla is my address book, email and calendar. While it is true that bluetooth doesn't directly matter, since my addressbook and calendar cannot easily synch with any given PDA, bluetooth (or any other connection for that matter) doesn't really help much.

            Sorry, that wasn't entirely clear of me...
            • Ah, so what is needed is a multi-protocol standard address/calendar sync interface (that can work over bluetooth, TCP/IP, serial, USB etc) in the same way that twain works for scanners. Then Mozilla needs to implement *that*.


              Gotcha :)


              Rich



      • I'm not going to spend $500 on a PDA, thats ridiculous, $300 is reasonable and maybe $50 for a wifi card.

        $500 is too expensive as much as I want 802.11b, I'd rather just be ale to expand on the Zire later on w hen I have an extra $50-100 and use something else in the meantime.
    • Well, in my opinion, it's more of a shame that they have such fast processors. The Dragonball was never meant to run much faster than 66 MHz and they designed PalmOS very efficently while they had that limitation. Using a 66 MHz Dragonball (or even one of those tweaked 200 MHz ones that Sony uses) would have cost less and it would probably be more efficent in terms of power useage.

      Bluetooth should have been included. It was meant for connecting devices to each other over short ranges, wheras WiFi can be

    • Re:NO Bluetooth (Score:4, Informative)

      by Stalus ( 646102 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @10:45AM (#5789439)
      The short answer, because it's easier to add Bluetooth. I currently own a Tungsten T, which is the first Palm I've actually loved, but it has two main flaws from my view and both of these are fixed in the Tunsten C.

      1) T comes with Bluetooth built in, but I can buy a Bluetooth card from Palm. I can't seem to find an 802.11b card for the life of me. Though different companies claim to have card designs that they've sold to other people, nothing has made it to market yet that I'm aware of.

      I could be up and running with 802.11b, but since I have Sprint, and Sprint hasn't come out with a bluetooth phone yet (Though SonyEriccson is rumored to have the T608 coming out this quarter), I have no internet connectivity with my Palm.

      2) I used to own a Treo 300, which had a keyboard and I must say it's a heck of a lot faster to type on that mini-keyboard once you get used to it than to write grafitti. I'm kind of neutral, but somewhat leaning toward keyboard designs - especially now that the OS supports some keyboard navigation.

    • Re:NO Bluetooth (Score:5, Interesting)

      by tyen ( 17399 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @10:56AM (#5789562) Journal

      Any Ideas why it hasn't been included ?

      IMHO, it is because Bluetooth recognition/adoption by both manufacturers and users has been slower than WiFi. Also, the implementations of Bluetooth have been pretty uninspiring. I can create a Bluetooth net with a Tungsten, headset and SonyEricsson, and with the phone in my briefcase place a call using the Tungsten. Neat. When a call comes in however, the Caller ID information is not passed back to the Tungsten through the Bluetooth net so I can see on the Tungsten who is calling (the Mac OS X Address Book supports this). Almost a textbook illustration of flashy demo technology that is impractical in daily use.

      Palm's choice of data architecture unfortunately makes it difficult to take advantage of these technologies that bring a Unix-like philosophy to devices (make 'em small and usable in different contexts, allow users to combine and recombine, sometimes in ways the original designers never thought of). These types of devices really come into their own when they can fluidly share data between themselves; their utility grows far beyond the hardware's core benefit, and is only limited by the software. The Apple Newton's Lisp'ish soups data architecture [cbbrowne.com] held a lot of promise, and worked really well when vendors took advantage of it.

      Manufacturers also share some responsibility however for lacking some marketing foresight. Not being able to reprogram the Bluetooth support in their devices limits their future utility. It also places a cap on possible revenue streams for software upgrades, implementing features for increased and diverse uses, often driven by businesses, that the market finds. These uses sometimes fall outside of the original vision of the device, and add revenue streams from unexpected places. And That's A Good Thing (tm). A lot of people who hear about Bluetooth, and it seems these people might include the device manufacturers, do not understand that simply implementing the Bluetooth transport doesn't make magic happen. Just as simply expressing your invoices into XML doesn't replace your EDI system overnight. The magic happens because a protocol is exploited by both sides of a transaction. Locking up your protocol support implementation into non-replaceable firmware means you just locked yourself out of exploiting different uses of your hardware that become apparent later on. This drives up the useful lifecycle of your product line's core implementation, drives down R&D costs, and drives up the number of revenue sources to tap into.

      These are a very rich vein of sales and marketing possibilities that Palm and manufacturers spending R&D money on Bluetooth support for their product lines have failed to grasp. They implemented Bluetooth without grasping these possibilities and taking action upon them, then stood aside expecting the world to beat a path to their door. When that didn't happen, they charged off to chase the next chimera of profitability, which you see today.

      • Re:NO Bluetooth (Score:4, Insightful)

        by WinterSolstice ( 223271 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @03:33PM (#5792702)
        What I have found in my personal Bluetooth net (Apple G4 desktop, Powerbook G4, S/E T68i, Palm Tungsten T) is that Bluetooth is an almost technology. It almost solves all your problems. It almost is awesome, and it almost is worth the trouble.

        For example, I love the SMS bluetooth stuff on the Tungsten. I can feel my phone buzz during a meeting, and just hit my hotkey on the palm (which I was taking notes on) to see/respond to the message. But I can't send attachments or text via SMS unless I use the email program to dial my ISP. WTF?

        Again, I can hotsync with my Mac using Bluetooth. This is super awesome. But, I can't hotsync repeating appointments with my phone. Only single occurance appointments. WTF?

        The bluetooth headsets which could be so hot for gaming/chatting/etc if they would work with every device (the SOCOM/CS/Diablo implications are fantastic), but OS 10.2 doesn't have the voice gateway working properly for the headset, and the Palm ignores it entirely! WTF?

        See, my point is that everything Bluetooth can do is already implemented in hardware, but all the developers are still pushing beta software for it. If the market people will just cool their jets for a bit, it will become amazing. Too bad we'll probably lose the single coolest Super Local LAN due to the lack of good software.

        Sounds like OSS to the rescue?

        -WS

    • Bluetooth capability is available as an insert for the SD coard slot:

      http://www.palm.com/products/accessories/expansi on cards/bluetooth/

      However, this is only compatible with the older i705, m515, m505, m500, m130 and m125 handhelds. $129, for those who don't want to change their PDA, just upgrade the capabilities.
    • That was the first thing I noticed as well. Most of the time you won't be using WiFi. There simply are not enough Hotspots around. In the inbetween times you are likely to use GPRS. And to use that you need to connect to a phone. For that you could use IR to phone (line of site an crap) or Bluetooth to phone (Perfect).

      Of course you could buy an add-in Bluetooth SD card but then that ties up your SD slot which may be needed for things like a GPS unit, which in turn may need a GPRS connection to download loc


      • I live in boston and theres hotspots everywhere. Where can I find a bluetooth hotspot?
        • So you are telling me you can roam the entire city of Boston without losing a connection via WiFi? Not likely.

          Also I wasn't saying that there are Bluetooth hotspots, what I was saying is that you use your Bluetooth to talk with your mobile phone which in turn connects to a GPRS network. The GPRS network is far more widespread than WiFi and fills in all/most of the areas. having this access is key for a mobile worker. /b


          • Actually you can, this is a college town, most of Boston is wired, you can go all around Cambridge, Harvard Square or anywhere and be connected.

            GPRS is nice but I hear it costs money. WiFi hotspots are free and yes they are all over Boston.


    • I want to buy a PDA, I'd like to be able to get online, check my email, get icq/aim/msn msgs, play the occassional mp3, and take notes.

      I'm a college student, I dont really want to spend $500 on a PDA, but I like the WiFi ability.

      What are my options? The Zire71 is perfect in design and features but it lacks the internet so what good is this?

      Is there an expansion slot? can I buy a WiFi card with this device? Or else what are my options? I want to be able to connect remotely to my desktop and run or mess w

      • Re:Can I ask you all for some advice? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by steveha ( 103154 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @02:37PM (#5792056) Homepage
        Your requirements are pretty stiff for a PDA. I use a PDA for these things: appointments, phone numbers and email addresses, todo lists, notes, reading novels, playing games, taking notes, and listening to music. Almost any PDA will do all these things well (maybe not the music part; lots of PDAs don't do music).

        You could buy a Microsoft-based PDA, a PocketPC, and that might meet your specs. However, I hate Windows CE, much preferring the Palm system.

        I have a Palm Tungsten T, and I love it. But there is no 802.11b for it yet. It should otherwise meet your specs, including the ability to play MP3 and Ogg files.

        Personally, I think you would be better served with a really compact laptop. If you really want to check mail, upload/download files, listen to music, remotely run things on your desktop... a laptop really is the way to go. A Lindows Notebook PC is $800, and you can always install some other OS if you don't like Lindows. You can check eBay for a used tiny notebook. You could probably get a Libretto cheap, and that's really tiny!

        You might even want to get a NEC MobilePro. That's a Windows CE based subnotebook: it's like a really big PDA with a really big screen and a really big keyboard. Jerry Pournelle uses one to take notes, and he gave it his "Cold, Dead Fingers" award (as in, if you want to take it away from him you will have to pry his cold dead fingers from around it).

        If you insist on something in your pocket, maybe you should check out the Zaurus PDAs. Since they run real Linux, you can make them do lots of stuff, and I hear they are great. I've never used one yet so I don't know.

        Good luck.

        steveha

        • well no I dont need a powerful CPU, a huge harddrive , etc etc.

          I need something better than a toy however, which is what most PDAs are. Why cant I pay bills and buy stuff with my PDA? why cant I check my email? sure its cool to take notes, but a PDA should do momre than just let you take notes.

          Zaurus is good, its only problem is,its not good at taking notes.
          • well no I dont need a powerful CPU, a huge harddrive , etc etc.

            Nor did I say you need them. The MobilePro has no hard drive and a weak CPU. An old Libretto from eBay has a small hard drive and a weak CPU. But both of those have relatively large screens (at least compared to a PDA), and touch-typable keyboards, and expandability (such as a PC Card slot). You want to do things like remotely control your computer, those features will be nice.

            Why cant I pay bills and buy stuff with my PDA? why cant I ch
      • My vote is for getting one of the combo phone/PDAs. I have a Kyocera 6035 and love it. Of course, the 7135 is out now, which has a color screen and can also play MP3s, but it's also around $600.

        You can pick up the 6035 for under $200 if you look. The two things about it that I want now are: more memory (it has only 8MB), and a better screen (it's one of the black/ green ones).

        I recently purchased a hard drive-based MP3 player, which is fantastic. I can't imagine going back to being limited to one or a few

    • Re:NO Bluetooth (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Casal ( 229055 )
      Palm sells a Bluetooth SDIO. This page (http://www.palm.com/products/accessories/expansio ncards/bluetooth/) [palm.com] doesn't state it's compatible with the Tungsten C but that may simply be because Palm's pages haven't been updated yet. The Tungsten C can take SDIO cards.

      --
      Santiago Oleas
      Strada Consulting Group Inc.
      http://www.stradasystems.com [stradasystems.com]

  • With this new hardware... (Score:5, Funny)

    by levik ( 52444 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @09:50AM (#5789044) Homepage
    ... you can finally do what people probably wanted to for a long time - keep track of your appointments in glorious 320x320 full screen anti-aliased 12 bit color 3D!

  • Making the connection (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Mattygfunk1 ( 596840 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @09:51AM (#5789051)
    Yet more mobile devices that provide the hardware but can't see the posibilities of software features. Almost every current model mobile phone and gradually more PDAs are getting the combination of a camera and wireless / infrared connectivity. Why not spend a little extra time programming and create a webcam feature?

    No extra hardware increases the value to the user without the cost of production. What's the hold up?

    __
    cheap web site hosting [cheap-web-...ing.com.au] on linux

  • And why would I upgrade? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by digitect ( 217483 ) <digitect&dancingpaper,com> on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @09:51AM (#5789053)

    Funny, my Palm m100, upgraded to 8mb still does everything I need. Sure it doesn't play 31337 videos and MP3s, but 95% of what I need a PDA for can be satisified by an Ebay m105 for

    Sorry, Palm. I love ya and all, but until you make a PDA that can replace the usefulness of a cheap laptop, I've got no reason to upgrade.

    • 1) Color. I look at lot of graphs and charts on my Palm and color makes a big difference.

      2) Wireless access. Being able to retreive e-mail without going back to the desk is great.

      3) Audio and video playback. I don't want a Palm to replace an iPod, but it is good for watching business announcements that are streamed.

      If you do none of these things, fine, stick with the m100/m105. However, I think most handheld users will find at least one of the three compelling enough to get a new model.

    • Re:And why would I upgrade? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by RevAaron ( 125240 ) <revaaron AT hotmail DOT com> on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @10:17AM (#5789228) Homepage
      Believe it or not, different people have different needs/wants.

      For me, a Palm m100 is mostly worthless. For that matter, any current Palm OS model is. I use my PDAs like a 'real computer,' it is just as useful (or perhaps even more so) than a cheap laptop.

      But then again, as you say, until Palm makes a PDA that replaces a cheap laptop, you'd have no reason to upgrade. And I would have no reason to buy a Palm OS device. Perhaps by Palm OS 6, the POS will both be good enough for me and compelling enough for you. For someone who uses a PDA as an overpriced organizer and gimpy gamestation, darn near any model of POS device works great. My girlfriend has a very old Palm Pro, and besides the hardware sucking, I does pretty much everything the vast majority of what POS users do with their Palms. No wifi, no color, but eh. POS is POS, how useful is that stuff without a real OS backing it?

      The main PDAs I've used were a Newton MP2100, a Jornada 720, and a Zaurus. The first two managed to be great for both using as a computer as well as a PDA- the Newton was 100% perfect for notetaking. The Jornada wasn't perfect, but it was pretty damn good. (No reflective screen, so I had to say bye-bye)

      The Zaurus is another story alltogether- it kind of sucks as both a small 'real' computer as well as a PDA. No decent notetaking app exists for it and the software can often be slow, memory-hoggish, and flakey. Oddly enough, I honestly think that there has been more Unix software ported and adapted to WinCE (which I used on my Jornada 720) than for the Zaurus. Take for instance LaTeX- I could certainly cross-compile the full distro. I could even show that I'm super l33t and run LyX under X11... But why the hell would I want to waste my time doing that? With WinCE and PocketPC, there were a couple nice packages that gave you an integrated LaTeX front-end. Tap on a button and it would compile the TeX and display it in a port of WinDVI. Not so for the Zaurus... it seems people are too busy cheerleading that no one has time for any software development.

      And yes, I'm taking matters into my own hands and working on Dynapad, a PDA OE/OS which manages to already pack more functionality is a number of ways than the Zaurus does- 1 developer (me) vs all of them. Heh.
      • Take for instance LaTeX- I could certainly cross-compile the full distro. I could even show that I'm super l33t and run LyX under X11... But why the hell would I want to waste my time doing that?

        You probably don't have to complie anything, just grab the right packages from debian-arm.
        http://www.debian.org/distrib/packages
        As far as note-taking, have you tried IQnotes?


        Not so for the Zaurus... it seems people are too busy cheerleading that no one has time for any software development.

        I don't think
        • Yes, I've tried IQNotes. See my post about notetaking on the Zaurus [slashdot.org] in this same story... IQNotes falls woefully short. For now though, that is what I am using on the Z- at least I can get some organization to the notes.

          You probably don't have to complie anything, just grab the right packages from debian-arm.

          Again, what good would that do me? The LaTeX package for debian-arm would be good to have, but I am still stuck without anything useful, as there is no practical front-end for LaTeX on the Z. Fu
      • Perhaps by Palm OS 6, the POS will both be good enough

        Now, now, PalmOS may not be perfect, but there's no reason to call it a "POS".

        steveha

    • Extra features not a bad thing (Score:5, Informative)

      by amnesty ( 69314 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @10:35AM (#5789347) Homepage
      You know, I've agreed with your sentiment for a long time. But recently I bought a Sony Clie SJ33 as a birthday gift for probably the most amazing, beautiful girl in the world, and after seeing her daily use with it, I've changed my mind on this.

      I started with Palms ever since I got a Palm 1000. You know, that boxy dark-grey thing that had 128kb of memory long before Palm realized that independent developers would write thousands upon thousands of applications for the platform. Back then, they did one thing and one thing well--organize. Finally, there was some device I could hold in my hand that could actually improve my day-to-day life. Something that wasn't merely a toy but a real, useful tool.

      I eventually moved up to a Palm Vx for the 8mb RAM, LiIon battery and small form-factor. To me those were great features that complemented the key point of it all--to organize. I loved my Palm Vx and shook my head with disgust as the Palms that came after disappointed me. The next Palms traded battery life for fancy colour screens and suddenly you were paying extra for features that didn't matter.

      Well, this Clie SJ33 has changed my mind. Now they are actually coming out non-organizer features that are actually useful. The MP3 playback integrated with the Palm alone makes this handheld amazing. Sure, you can carry around your Palm, music playing device and cellphone. I've done that before, but I always had heavy, bulging and uncomfortable pockets as a result. The best solution I've seen is more than three years old, and it's the eholster [eholster.com] which tucks your miniature high-tech devices under your arms. Unfortunately they aren't actually usable because they actually look like real gun-holsters and pulling out a PDA has made a few people around me jump as it looked like I was drawing a gun. Practical, but doesn't work too well in this post 9-11 society. This girl that I speak of prefers wearing pocketless skirts over bulding pants, so integrating the music player with a small form-factored Palm works perfectly for her.

      Digital cameras on a Palm also work very well, found on the Zire 71 mentioned in this Slashdot article and also the memory stick cameras, not to mention the built in one on the Sony CLIE PEGNX70V or PEGNZ90. Sure, they are barely 1 megapixel, but they are a lot of fun. Basically if you're like me, you're going to have your Palm on you at all times. But I only think to bring my camera to social events. So now you have the ability to capture anything, anytime as you go through life. See a funny subway ad that you want to show your girlfriend? See Natalie Portman walking down the street and want to take a picture with her? End up spontaneously at a party and want to take some pictures? Sure the quality won't be up there, but you can still capture some memories at unexpected moments.

      I could go on with the many more features available, but my point being that mere organizing changed my life, but now they are adding features that can also improve my day-to-day life, and everyday these features dive cheaper and cheaper.
    • Mod down parent. This is offtopic. We're discussing Palm here, not your particular needs. For every device there is a person who says "I can't see the use" and for every such person there are 10 others who can see the use. Please don't upgrade but please don't feel the need to tell us all about it.

  • 640x480 VGA video playback? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ardiri ( 245358 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @09:57AM (#5789090) Homepage
    >> 640x480 VGA video playback

    well, thats not really true. the screen is only 320x320 - so, your limited to that. the Zire 71 has the ability to take up to 640x480 pictures. infosync.no has some good examples of the pictures taken at day and night with the Zire 71.

    the Tungsten|C is a nice unit - definately up there now with the Pocket PC equivalents. very fast.

  • Zire Product Name (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Christopher_G_Lewis ( 260977 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @09:58AM (#5789097) Homepage
    It's quite interesting that Palm selected the low-end Zire name for the 71. It 3 times the price of the original Zire, 8 times the memory, a much faster processor and a *much* better display.

    If I recall, the Zire was an attempt to get the "its just a little too expensive" consumer crowd to buy into the Palm family.

    BTW, my non-techie wife loves her Zire. It's just good enough to do the things she wants (calendar, address book) but nothing more.
    • The Zire product line is aimed at home users, the Tungsten line is for business. Palm had said earlier that there would be high-end Zires and possibly cheap tungsten devices.

    • Re:Zire Product Name (Score:3, Informative)

      by enjo13 ( 444114 )
      Just to clarify. The Zire brand is not aimed at 'low end' devices, but rather is focused as the consumer brand for Palm. So Zire == Consumer oriented devices, while Tungsten == professional.

      Or something like that.

  • Zire 71 review at infosyncworld.com (Score:4, Informative)

    by GQuon ( 643387 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @09:59AM (#5789099) Journal
    Review on infosyncworld [infosyncworld.com].

    The main gripe they have is the lack of Bluetooth, and that the IR diode isn't any stronger.

    But are there not Bluetooth cards for the SD port?

  • Palm screens too small... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dethl ( 626353 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @10:02AM (#5789122)
    I can't stand Palm's, or anything with that small of a screen. This is one of the reasons I sold my PEG-N710C and got a Newton. No, I'm not trolling for Apple, I'm saying that Palm needs to look back at what jumpstarted the industry: larger screen and non-grafitti handwriting recognition (the Newton had what was called Rosetta, still unmatched, even Apple's Inkwell on Mac OS X can't beat it).

    • Re:Palm screens too small... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by tuffy ( 10202 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @10:14AM (#5789196) Homepage Journal
      I'm saying that Palm needs to look back at what jumpstarted the industry

      Before Palm, where wasn't much of a PDA industry. The Newton was a great piece of hardware, but Apple didn't stop production because they were selling too many of them.

      (Sorry about the blank post, had a bit of a mouse slip-up)

      • Apple didn't stop production because they were selling too many of them

        Sure they were [apple.com]. But Newton was a Scully project (who Jobs hated), and, serendipitously they were signing a deal with Microsoft to keep Office on the Mac, and Microsoft was desparetely trying to get WinCE off the ground. Microsoft asked Apple to 'knife the baby', meaning at least Quicktime, but many feel Newton was included as well. There's little doubt that Apple could have delivered a Palm-sized Newton to keep in the PDA market if
    • While POS devices have typically had very tiny screens, with these models they're the same as what you can get in the PocketPC world. The Sony models at 480x320 have the same res of a Newton screen, but are physically smaller and Palm OS still lacks the advanced features of the Newton OS. Some non-PocketPC WinCE PDAs have a screen about the size of Newton 2100, but they're overpriced and hard to find. It is a damn shame- it is a huge pain in the ass to take notes on a tiny 320x240 screen, especially wh
    • I'm saying that Palm needs to look back at what jumpstarted the industry

      What jumpstarted the industry was Palm. Apple did it first, but Palm did it successfully: small enough to fit in a pocket, accurate recognition with minimal training, extensive battery life, simple functionality.

    • Absolutely! (Score:3, Informative)

      by metamatic ( 202216 )
      I'm thinking about getting a Sony with a 480x320 screen, but even those are kinda small.

      I can't believe nobody makes a handheld with a screen the size of a paperback book. I don't even care what it runs, so long as it's not WinCE...
      • Just slightly smaller than a paperback would be better. I've often found that th average paperback will perfectly exactly just not fit into most coat pockets.
    • You forgot the key words. Too small for you. I got glasses years ago and have no problem. I've probably read 30 MB of books now on my 'tiny' screen with no problem.

  • MB (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jmays ( 450770 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @10:03AM (#5789129)
    Granted, I could add an SD or MMC card but really ... 16MB is pretty weak. I would like to see Palm at least have 256MB on board, especially if I am going to use this for any type of music or video!

    $300 better spent on a 5GB iPod. I can use my phone for PDA functions.

    PS. I have and use a Palm m125.

    • Re:MB (Score:3, Interesting)

      by RevAaron ( 125240 )
      256 MB on board wouldn't be possible as far as regular RAM is concerned. I guess they could have flash built-in, such that you'd have 16 MB of regular RAM and then the 256 MB Flash, which would basically just be an internal SD card.

      Why do we see POS devices top out at 16 MB? That is, until Palm OS 5.2.1 and the Tungstep C... That is because, until a few days ago, POS devices couldn't have more than 16 MB of internal RAM! You see, Palm did us all a favor and had a major breakthrough in technology, allowin

  • No, I'm not bitter... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Rude Turnip ( 49495 ) <valuation.gmail@com> on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @10:04AM (#5789135)
    God fsckn' damnit!!! I just did a 5-second snipe on a Tungsten T last night on eBay and I see this in the morning!

    Overall, I think I still would have bought the TT over the TC. I bought my Palm mostly for portable editing of Word & Excel files (Palms do this better than PocketPC apparently).

    In connection with the foregoing, I intend to buy the full-sized Ultra Thin keyboard. I've seen a lot of nice Clie's with built-in keyboards already, and I think for any real work a bigger keyboard will be better, supplemented by grafitti for quick note jotting.

    The Wi-Fi built-into the TC would not be of much use to me. In fact, I have no use for the Bluetooth built-into the TT. If I ever need to use Wi-Fi, there's always SDIO add-in cards.

    • Re:No, I'm not bitter... (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Actually, the TC and Z71 have been available from various Targets and Circuit Citys for a few days now. It's all over the boards at brighthand.com and palminfocenter.com. People posted pics and specs. Shoulda done a little research! :)

      I'm with you though, I like my TT better than the TC. It's still smaller and lighter and Bluetooth is now a must have for me.

      And as of now, there aren't any SDIO WiFi cards. They're pretty much all coming Real Soon Now.

      On top of that, there are reports that current SDIO imp

  • Still Love my CLIE (Score:3, Interesting)

    by EvlOvrLrd ( 559820 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @10:05AM (#5789145)
    With WiFi and Bluetooth becoming standard (or at least peripheral), I am waiting on the applications to make my PDA even more usefull than it already is. Like an SSH client and true IMAP, POP3 email client.
    • ssh client available, pop/imap client, synchronises over tcp/ip, so can sync with your PC over usb, wifi, ethernet etc. Has a CF camera, can act as a camera server.

      Having said that and having been impressed with the connectability and flexibility of having a linux box as a palmtop, the Psion Series 5 and Revo are miles better as personal productivity tools. Try creating a pie chart in the Zaurus spreadsheet, try pasting the pie chart into the word processor. Try adding voice notes to a document, to a prese

  • Data ROMs? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by astroview ( 105285 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @10:07AM (#5789157)
    Most people I know that have PDAs download dictionaries, thesauri, maps into their RAM. Would it be possible and realistic for manufacturers to sell PDAs with ROMs that have data like the aforementioned dictionaries, thesauri, & maps? Perhaps this static memory would include music files, and books from Project Gutenberg that are in the public domain.

    I guess this would make the PDAs akin to the Hitchikers Guide to the Universe.

    Does anyone know if this is feasible?

  • Tungsten = Heavyrock (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    It's worth noting that the word Tungsten comes from the swedish words tung and sten meaning 'heavy' and 'rock'. Heavyrock C, anyone? If you don't believe me, check out Merriam-Webster [m-w.com].

  • Internetnews review (Score:5, Funny)

    by Jacco de Leeuw ( 4646 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @10:26AM (#5789283) Homepage
    We've also worked hard to extend the battery life to give you a full 8-hour day of work on one 1500-amp charge."

    1500 Amp? Yikes! :-)

  • " 640x480 VGA video playback -- interesting since the screen is 320x320."

    That's just like going to a store and looking at all those "HDTVs". They don't advertise resolutions, and when asked, the sales pud seems to think they can all handle all resolutions. "when you switch channels it says 1080i right on screen". When you tell him that's just what it's receiving - not displaying - he gives a blank stare, then says we can go look up specs on the internet.

  • Since the VPN client could obscure both the origin and destination of Internet traffic.

    Bad Palm!

  • What do you use your PDA for? (Score:3, Informative)

    by angle_slam ( 623817 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @11:10AM (#5789687)
    I think that a lot of people in the general public don't know exactly what you can do with a PDA these days. That is why I delayed my purchase of one. A friend of mine bought a Handspring Visor and barely used it. I finally bought mine, a Sony SJ 30 (already discontinued and replaced by the SJ33 [sonystyle.com], even though it is only 6 months old), without really knowing what to expect. I'm happy with it, but I don't think I'm getting the most out of it.

    I use DateBK5 [pimlicosoftware.com] for appointments, I store contact information in the default appointment book, and I use Plucker [plkr.org] and Avantgo [avantgo.com] for offline browsing of documents and various readers for ebooks. Of course, I also play games.

  • I feel kinda cheated buying my Clie.

    I mean, the SJ33 is in teh same price range, and it's key +point is that it plays MP3. Not only doe steh Zire 71 play mp3s, it' has a faster processor, newer OS, and a phreaking CAMERA!!!!!!!!

    sigh.... anyone want my Clie?
  • I just bought the tungsten T.
    Basic reasons:
    -bluetooth
    -nice screen
    -small yet large enough for pda use (the p800 is a bit too small for a pda and a bit too big for a phone and I don't need both all the time)

    The only thing i dislike is the missing thumbboard. Jot makes up for alot and there might be one in the future who knows? This didn't stop me (could have waited for the clie sj-50 which has bluetooth and keyboard) because it does email and web/wap but still small. My phone (a siemens s55) does email and
  • The VPN capability of the Tungsten-C is PPTP only....no IPSec capability.

    Is this really useful?

  • Who'll be first with "Build your Own"? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by dschuetz ( 10924 ) <.gro.tensad. .ta. .divad.> on Wednesday April 23, 2003 @12:21PM (#5790453)
    I'd like to know who's going to be the first to market with a "Build your Own PDA" system. It seems that a lot of the discussion today is centered around why this or that feature is or isn't included. Ultimately, it probably comes down to some combination of price / power / volume.

    So why can't Palm (or someone else? Handspring, are you listening?) build a fairly modular inner chassis, slap on different plastic shells, and allow people to select which features they want?

    For example:

    Size:
    * Regular (1.7 cm thick) [$200]
    * Thin (1 cm thick) [$300]

    Display:
    * Traditional - 320x320 (with grafitti area)
    * QVGA - 320x480 (virtual grafitti area)
    * No Grafitti - 320x320 (with thumb keyboard)

    Standard options (any or all can be removed):
    * IR
    * BlueTooth
    * SD/MMC slot

    Major Expansion (not avail on thin model) [+ $150]
    + 802.11
    + GSM
    + CDMA
    + CF
    + Camera

    Minor expansion: [+ $50]
    * 2nd SD slot
    * mini-SD
    * XD
    * Audio chip (for music playback)

    To do this, they'd need:

    * 3 CPU cores (corresponding to display options)

    * Four cases (thick and thin models, with and without thumb keyboard) with knockouts for different options

    * Internal "expansion card" space for WAN wireless, Camera (like the old memory card space was)

    * Second internal expansion space for additional SD, mini-SD, XD, or audio playback

    * Removable internal daughterboards for IR, BT, and the main SD slot

    I really don't think this is so impossible. You'd have 39 (27 regular and 12 thin) standard configurations, and I'd bet only 5 or so would be really popular (and can be mass-produced in advance and sold at retail). Drop XD, mini-SD, and maybe CDMA, and you're down to only 24 configurations (18 and 6).

    Including removal of standard options obviously increases the number, but very few customers will be likely to take that route (think "Palms used in a classified environment"). Include a grayscale option and double the count, but realistically, you can keep a separate, non-modular, grayscale model for $100 as a stocking-stuffer target).

    Finally, you could even sell some of these as after-market items, so people could buy the basic model today, and then add the camera later with just a little screwdriver and some patience.

    Is this so crazy?

    • I can't comment on how crazy it is, although IMHO this is not as easy engineering-wise as you think for hardware. Also, software would be a problem too in terms of supoprting those options, for example QVGA on Handera required their new version of PalmOS.

      However, one place where you're dead wrong is the grayscale part - unless and until someone comes up with a color screen that doesn't eat up batteries any faster than grayscale one, i'm opting for grayscale, and i'm sure many other people too. I don't need
  • I'm not sure how many of you know this but I only found this out the other day and think it's pretty cool. This Zire 71 (and some other new Palms I think) ses a TI OMAP processor which is a C55x DSP with a ARM core on chip. So it's able to do fast DSP routines and fast microprocessor routines.

  • Palm Zire 71 Review (Score:2, Informative)

    by nacs ( 658138 )
    There's a Palm Zire 71 Review at PDABuzz [pdabuzz.net].
  • i just got the tungsten t, and though i like it, the battery life sucks compared to previous models. i have to keep the thing in a charger every day. my old USR palm pilot went weeks before a new battery. i understand the need to keep up with the pocket pc's but one thing palm shouldn't emulate is battery life.
    the blue tooth is cool though, and eats up less batteries than wifi. i'm tempted to get a bluetooth access point with a bigger coverage. voip would be cool too.

    the most effective way to use your

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