CDMA vs. GSM in Post-war Iraq 1439
An anonymous reader submits: "Congressman Darrell Issa (R-CA) is pressing congress to favor CDMA over GSM for mobile phone service in U.S.-funded reconstruction plans. One reason for pushing this is that a CDMA system would benefit American companies, such as California-based Qualcomm, while GSM would favor European companies. Currently, GSM is the most widely used mobile standard in surrounding countries."
My thoughts (Score:3, Insightful)
CDMA rocks! (Score:5, Interesting)
GSM phones can exist in the same area as CDMA, I know this for a fact because all my friends have GSM...
What will probably happen is that the standard competitive environment will emerge anyway -- company A puts up GSM towers, company B puts up CDMA towers, and both try to convince the public that their system is better. Some people buy one system, some buy the other, based on what's important to that individual. This is, in my opinion, a much better system than relying on one technology -- and it's a system that will emerge without any form of legislation. Why can't political leaders just keep their noses out of it?
Re:CDMA rocks! (Score:4, Insightful)
1. As for GSM vs. CDMA, no self respecting idiot would bring a CDMA phone to Europe, so only self serving people would choose CDMA over GSM.
2. GSM may or may not be a better channel today, but GSM is the upgrade path to GPRS and UMTS, not CDMA.
3. Having America as the monopoly, will other providers enter the country, and who soon after the reconstruction? In a fair playing field CDMA would die out very fast in Iraq. Having the US dictate a (wrong, selfserving) decision for CDMA would cause nobody but downturned American companies grief.
Re:CDMA rocks! (Score:3, Insightful)
The "upgrade path" of GSM is... CDMA. Specifically, TD-CDMA and W-CDMA.
asshole (Score:3, Insightful)
Personally, I don't give a rats ass either way, it's fucking phones for Christ's sake. I say build whatever would be best for the Iraqi people, screw everything else, because it's the right thing to do. But assholes from both sides of the pond will lobby for what they personally
Re:asshole (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree in that criticizing americans as whole is unfair, but claiming that "coalition" is much more than just US is ignoring the facts. Only UK is sending significant amount of troops (Australia some), and rest are either good-weather friends that think it's beneficial (ie. they need US favours), or have right-wing leader
Re:My thoughts (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, of course. Most mobile networks in Australia are GSM but we also have CDMA because it's better in rural areas.
And yes, someone on a GSM phone can talk to someone on a CDMA phone and vice versa, just like someone on a mobile can talk to someone on a land line.
Seriously though, everything I've ever heard about American mobile phone networks seems really weird and backwards. I hear for example that the numbers are indistinguisable from land line numbers so the caller doesn't know they're calling a mobile and that consequently the recipient of the call pays for it. Elsewhere in the world the number is noticeably different and the caller pays. So I would personally be against the Americans setting up the mobile phone network in Iraq at all, whether it's GSM or CDMA! (On the other hand you guys are better at broadband so I'll let you take care of the cable roll out!) (Very magnanimous, I know!
But yes, it seems a little trivial when we're still at war and people are dying.
One question to ask would be: What was used in the reconstruction in Afghanistan?
Re:My thoughts (Score:3, Informative)
Well, it does for me. I admit that I don't really pay too much attention to what mobile phone calls cost here in the UK (I don't have a landline, and the quality of this GSM only system makes a landline unnecessary), but from memory the cost is normally based on the network dialling code. So some are 07954 and some are 07713 etc.(they all begin
Re:My thoughts (Score:4, Interesting)
Oh, come off the high horse for just a minute and think rationally.
Here's a country with no effective mobile phone system. It needs a new one, and one's going to be put in place over the next few years. If you're a mobile phone company executive who is not slavering over this opportunity, you're not doing your job.
The Congressman's proposal is a perfectly valid one: here's an opportunity that has arisen (more accurately, that will arise) as a result of the war. Let's give American companies first swing at it.
Whether this proposal will ultimately be a good idea or not is up to the various House committees to decide.
Who's war is this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Who's war is this? (Score:3, Insightful)
How? Do you propose to take a door-to-door survey of 25 million people? Remember, Iraq is under the rule of a totalitarian dictatorship. They have no representative legislative bodies that could make this decision for them. They will have, but not for months at least and possibly years, and the US and US-based companies and organizations that carry out the reconstruction will need a mobile phone system long before then.
So it's a case of either letting the US do it however we damn well ple
Re:My thoughts (Score:4, Insightful)
You said it so yourself, "autonomy is the keystone of responsible self-government." If I am paying for the system with my money, then I want a say in how that money is spent. If the Iraquis have a problem with that, then they can build their own cell phone infrastructure.
That would be fair if you did not break their existing phone system. What you are actually doing is - breaking their phone system and now you think you will be doing them a favor by fixing it.
I would not be surprised if it was me and you, but it's sad that people in high positions - CEOs and Ministers - should be so selfish and narrow minded.
Re:My thoughts (Score:5, Insightful)
Quite the contrary. Mobile phones will be critically important for everyone from Red Cross workers to those distributing food aid to Doctors Without Borders to the firefighters who are already trying to cap the burning oil wells. Without this piece of infrastructure in place, the relief and reconstruction effort will be severely hampered.
Re:My thoughts (Score:5, Insightful)
Bush needs a war to be re-elected.
Re:My thoughts (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, when somebody kicks my ass, I'm ever so greatful when they throw me a fiver afterwards. And hey, if I only have to pay back six bucks by Friday, all the better! I actually feel GOOD about being bruised and battered!
Considering the vested interests of America's Big Oil El Presidente going after a country with such large oil reserves, once again 'accidentally' lobbing some of the most high-tech, modern, "smart" guided weaponry into markets et al. and terrorizing the very citizenry he claims to be helping, I don't think you should be patting yourselves on the back for your proposed rebuilding efforts.
Re:My thoughts (Score:3, Insightful)
If you compare this to English colonilism in America, you are justifying any abuses the England played on you. Isn't that ironic. I am sure there will be some unimportant or ad-hominim statement following, so lets cut to the bull.
America is occupying Iraq. That is undeniable. If you follow UN laws as stupid as you think they may be, then you would have at least done it with the might
Re:My thoughts (Score:3, Insightful)
The U.S. is going to spend upwards of $75 Billion dollars on the war alone, with who knows how many more Billions rebuilding Iraq, and when all is said and done we probably won't even get a thank you card. Even if half of the aid was in loans it would still be a good deal. This is especially true considering that the loans are likely to be given at ridiculously low rates. Loans at below market rates is still basically free money. Study up on the time value of money if you don't belive me. Sure there will b
Re:Yay (Score:5, Insightful)
and apparently you havent noticed the american government doesnt give a shit about iraqi people, their just in for the money.
because if they did give a shit, they would realize that GSM is better for them, because every other nation around them uses it!!!.
but no, they'll force them (because thats what the US government is used to do) to use CDMA in the interest of a couple of greedy corporations.
and btw, who the fuck is the US congress to decide which mobile phone service protocols is the iraqi people going to use ???
operation iraqi freedom indeed...
If GSM is selected... (Score:2, Funny)
After all these years, you would think we would have grown beyond the same old game of 'empire'.
Talk about counting chickens (Score:5, Insightful)
I can tell this esteemed Rep. has his priorities straight.
Re:Talk about counting chickens (Score:5, Funny)
Too late, the Bush Dinar has already been designed. [bizarsite.nl]
After all, the US might lose (Score:5, Interesting)
There are many ways the US can lose this. For example:
-
Iraq succeeds in cutting the supply line to the spearhead approaching Baghdad, they run out of fuel and ammo, and surrender or die in place. That's a classic.
-
US troops get bogged down, the war drags on with high body counts, and US public opinion demands a pullout.
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Other Arab countries join with Iraq, either militarily or in the form of an oil embargo.
-
Iraq really does have weapons of mass destruction and uses them.
-
North Korea makes their move on S. Korea and US troops have to be pulled out and moved to that theater.
None of these scenarios are likely, but it's quite possible for the Administration to bungle its way into one or more of them. Quite a few US war plans have failed in this war. "Decapitation" didn't work, "Shock and Awe" didn't work, "Blitz to Baghdad" didn't work, and "Basra Revolt" didn't work. That's just the first week. Not a good record.Historically, when an initial attack is far less successful than anticipated but isn't a total failure, the result is a long, bloody campaign. In a long campaign, the scenarios above become more likely.
Yet a Congressman is worrying about the cell phone industry in postwar Iraq. That's sick.
Re:After all, the US might lose (Score:3, Insightful)
Totally. The commies tried that in Vietnam and it didn't work then either.
Re:After all, the US might lose (Score:3, Insightful)
There has been shown war crimes on the Bittish and US sides, aswell, e.g. bombing of civilians, shooting at soldiers who has given up (white flag), etc.
In addition, I think you underestimate the power of the belief that you, your country and you familly are under attack, and must be protected from the evil forces who will reap your wife and your doughter and kill you and your son _afterwards_.
People
Re:After all, the US might lose (Score:4, Interesting)
Stop watching Al-Jazeera. Briefly, there are enough American and European media outlets that hate the war that if the colatition was doing anything fishy there would be massive coverage. The best amnesty international could do is bitch about taking out a TV station. War crimes [amnesty.org]. And Amnesty hates the US, they give four times as much space to the TV station as they do to Baathists killing civilians and false flags of surrender.
Killing civilians is not illegal, intentionally killing civilians is. By the Iraqi goverments count less than two hundred civilians have died. That is one for what, every hundred bombs? There has never been a more careful war in history.
As far as showing Iraqi POWs on TV, there have been a few shots of Iraqis while surrendering, eg live TV coverage of combat. Generally with their faces too small or grainy to see. This is vastly different than a dog and pony show of POWS put on by the goverment. Or government footage of executed POWs.
You can be against the war or hate the coaltion and its members. To pretend the two sides are fighting the war equally dirty is farcical.
Re:After all, the US might lose (Score:3, Interesting)
- Declassified documents point to US war crimes in Iraq [mediamonitors.net]
u.s. treatment of "enemy combatants" has been extremely questionable. the spirit of the geneva convention leans towards the prisoners - who are the most vulnerable. the u.s. likes to think just because they are "enemy combatants" and not prisoners of war that they can treat them entirely different. well - they're still people.
Afghan prisoners beaten to death at US military interrogation base [worldrevolution.org]
Re:Talk about counting chickens (Score:5, Insightful)
Given that the US has made so much fuss about bringing "democracy" to Iraq shouldn't it be the Iraqis who make decisions on how to rebuild their infrastructure?
Of course left to their own devices they'd probably pick a system used by most of the planet. Rather than be stuck with something US specific. That's just from a practical position.
Re:Talk about counting chickens (Score:5, Insightful)
1) The US is amoral (note to the clueless: this is different from 'immoral') . So is pretty much every other country out there. Our actions are decided not by "right" and "wrong" but by our interests. In the '70s, the US fought a war against a country when their people chose a government the US did not agree with. Throughout the late 20th century, the US propped up oppressive dictatorships because it benifeted them. US sanctions on Iraq have not only resulted in the death of tens of thousands of Iraqis (not counting the 75,000 that died as a result of the Gulf War) but made Saddam into a hero in many Arab circles. Were any of these actions "right?" Hell no. Were they good for the US? Certainly.
2) Money is not a big issue for the US. We have tons of it, and if we need more, we can always make the deficit a little larger. What he don't have is a stable energy supply, something which Iraq does. And anyone who says oil isn't the issue here is flat out misinformed. Even several ministers within Great Britain agree that a stable energy supply is the #1 reason for a way. Look at it this way: Iraq is a country with only about 25 million people. The US plans to spend over a hundred billion dollars on it. In comparison, the total population of the developing countries is in the billions. To relieve the entire developing world of their foreign debt would cost only $65 billion (much less if you don't count Indonesia). Developing countries suffer heavily under the interest payments due to foreign debt. In some countries, up to 25% of the budget could be freed up with debt relief. Now, what makes more sense: taking a country of 25 million people, that already has well-established infrastructure, blowing everything up, and rebuilding it at a cost of over a hundred billion dollars, or allowing a much larger number of countries to get their budget on track by relieving their debt? If "right" and "wrong" were our only concerns, we would certainly be doing the latter.
3) The whole "democracy for everyone!" idea is bunk. What makes you think that a system of government that works well for a rich, industrialized nation will work equally well for a decentralized nomad country (Afghanistan) and a very conservative religious society (Iran). Take Iran as a test case. The current government was put into place by a revolution of the people. That's the government they chose. If given the option, right now, they'd choose it again. Is it "right" to remake their country in our own image?
All this has no bearing on whether the war is necessary. I have my own opinions about that, but I won't try to convince you of them. But the truth of the matter is that the US is going to war to protect its own interests. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, one can make a strong arguement that the purpose of a government (much like a lawyer) is not to necessarly do what's morally right, but what's in the best interest of its people. It also doesn't mean that democracy is wrong. I'm very fond of the idea myself. I strongly believe that the ultimate direction of all governments should be towards democracy, and the international community should pressure all governments in that direction. But I also realize that history works at a scale much larger than the 4-year term of a President, and further, I believe that prostelyzing our system of government is against our fundemental values.
A parting thought: In the 10 minutes it took me to write this post, 240 children died of hunger. What did you do about it? What did I do about it? Everytime anyone starts to get to full of themselves, or too proud of their accomplishments, think about that. Realize that while our country may very well be the greatest in the world, that's not saying much, and it's nothing to be proud of. Humility is a part of every religion. There is a fundemental reason for this...
Re:Talk about counting chickens (Score:5, Insightful)
That statement itself implies that it's wrong (ahem) to say that something is right or wrong. Then you proceed with a long-winded rant on what's right and wrong. I think this is what they call in psychology "cognitive dissonance."
Re:Talk about counting chickens (Score:4, Insightful)
> wrong with that.
Up to a point, Lord Copper. The US is being completely thrashed in the propaganda war, not just in the Arab and Muslim countries (not the same thing of course) where they obviously have an uphill battle from the get-go, but in the rest of the world as well. The Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft/Perle/Wolfowitz regieme are really playing into the hands of the extremists who have been trying to depict this as a neo-colonial war of aggression and conquest - a 'crusade' (and Bush actually USED that word! What a schmuck!) In the last couple of days in the UK media there have been hints that the US wants to *run the country* after the war (which will no doubt be over by Christmas...) I cannot imagine anything they could do, short of rounding up and executing Muslims, more calculated to inculcate suspicion and hatred of the USA and by extension the UK, Australia, and, as far as the Al Qaeda types are concerned, all infidels.
This is shaping up to be the worst foreign policy blunder by the USA since... well, I can't remember a bigger screw-up. It's a disaster. And there's nothing to do but press on with the war.
Re:Talk about counting chickens (Score:4, Insightful)
Those interests include protecting its people and providing a safe, free environment for them to live and work in. (emphisis added)
With the NY Times publishing a blacklist and the old "if you don't like it, get out" line making a come back, I'm waiting for the free environment to make an appearance here. If we can't protect freedom here, we don't have a chance to export it.
It has been argued before that that's exctly what we're doing (the US). No UN resolution gives us the authority to determine the compliance of Iraq. We went to war under the UN banner, and passed a cease fire resolution in the UN. None of this puts us into control. You can say it's self defence, but that's a different story.
But, I support the President and the rest of the coalition, which have more knowledge and information about the true happenings within the government and organizations that I do...
Since the shit hit the fan, it's good that you're behind them. It's worth noting that France, Germany, and Russia have world class intelligence services as well. They didn't seem to think Iraq was a big enough threat to override their national interests.
That has never been proven. It has never been shown to be a probability. They have no means of delivery to our territories except via terrorist; and why would a terrorist go to a heavily watched country like Iraq. Iraq has been secular for the whole history of the Baath party. Why not go to Pakistan for nuclear material? Why not N. Korea? CB weaponry? Why not go to the domestic sources that supposedly manufactured it in US labs? It would seem that Iraq is the least of our problems.
You're entitled to your opinion, and this is mine.
I'm glad to read this. It seems the least common view in America today. Keep up your support. Keep your eyes open.
Re:Talk about counting chickens (Score:3, Insightful)
Have you ever heard of Corporate Welfare?
Taxpayer money will be given to American companies to rebuild Iraq. It's the "right thing to do," indeed, if you happen to be an elected official whose campaign contributions come from those very same companies who will be getting the handouts to do the
we've been shafted already (Score:3, Informative)
USA is not the only ones "paying" for this and yet there are no open tenders, even within the USA economy, stuff is going directly to the republican cronies of GW Bush.
Eg Cheney's company Halliburton [abc.net.au] has the oil well capping project already, nobody else got a look in.
Surely if the USA people are paying for this (which I dispute that they are the only contributors), then shouldn't they be getting the best value for money available - which usual
BZZZZZ, Wrong answer ! (Score:3, Insightful)
If we weren't thinking about what's best for Iraq, we wouldn't be bothering to plan for a postwar reconstruction at all.
Uhh ???? The 'reconstruction' will be paid for by Iraqian Oil to (presumably) US companies.
we're planning on spending up to more than a hundred billion dollars to rebuild the country's infrastructure and to help them establish their own government.
Wrong, again, "*the* reconstruction will cost more than hundred billion dollars", but it's the Iraqi oil that will pay for
Re:Talk about counting chickens (Score:4, Informative)
Percentage of budget of US foreign aid: 1.0% (dead last among western nations).
Percentage of that dedicated to military aid to allies: ~50%
Percentage of total aid that comes directly back to US companies: ~70%
Percentage of people polled that think we spend too much on foreign aid: 75%
Average response to the question, "how much should we spend on foreign aid?": 8.4%
Well... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Well... (Score:2)
Re:Well... (Score:3, Insightful)
GSM is standard in every country but the USA. I can SMS anyone anywhere in the world without any problem. GPRS can be tacked on at little cost to provide 2.5G services. The correct choice is clear. However, the US seems particularly vulnerable to lobby groups.
Phillip.
If Qualcomm really wanted to be patriotic... (Score:2)
They could forfiet their patent royalities on that technology which was originally developed for the military at taxpayers expense.
hah! (Score:5, Insightful)
Come on people, war hasn't even finished, and all they can think about is US cellphone company's benefits? what about FOOD, WATER, MEDICINE?
sheesh...
Re:hah! (Score:4, Funny)
Uhhh (Score:5, Informative)
No one ever died from a cold (Score:3, Insightful)
No one ever died from a cold, but a cure for the common cold would be far more lucrative than a cure for cancer by the sheer fact that people get colds more often than they get cancer. But if you're actually interested in saving people's lives, we really should pursue the cure for cancer instead of the cure
Re:Uhhh (Score:3, Informative)
During the -91 Gulf war media reported about Iraqi soldiers entering maternity wards and pulling babies out of their incubators, about women being raped and murdered, and men having their ears and toungues cut off. These incidents were one of many that helped swing the public opinion.
After the war, investigation revelaed that that inf
Re:hah! (Score:3, Funny)
Oh, and I'm also a plasmoid being from a distant solar system.
Re:hah! (Score:3, Insightful)
Uh, because American companies ARE making money already, you knob! You still don't see how things work, do you? The US is not one single big pocket. It consists of one very large pocket called the government, and many smaller pockets called companies. The objective of the game is to shovel as much money as possible from the parge pocket into as few as possible of the small pockets. Let's call some of the small pockets Raytheon, Lockheed Martin,
Re:Bull... (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, that's right. It's all about oil. We want the oil, must have the oil. Got to have the oil.
Let me ask you a question, though. This war, including the postwar reconstruction, is probably going to cost us around 200 billion dollars, and that doesn't count the cost of the munitions we're using. We've used over a billion and a half dollars' worth of cruise missiles alone so far, and the war's only a week old. Two hundred bi
Re:Bull... (Score:3, Insightful)
Ah, yes, there's the funny thing. "We're not in it for the oil, see, because this war is costing so much, the profit that will be made from Iraqi oil is very small compared to not going to war and just buying the oil". But you have to consider that the government is paying for the war. The government gets his money through taxes, big corps, small corps, inviduals, they all pay the taxes. Government money is taxpayers money. It's not like Bush is spending for the war from his pocket. It's not his money.
So,
Re:Bull... (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not quite that simple.
Most of the money that's spent on the war is actually spent paying US companies for products and services (those cruise missiles were actually bought from someone) + salaries for servicemen.
That money is thus transfered from the US government to other sectors of the US economy.
From the point of view of the global US economy, most of the money spent on the war stays in the US.
Now, if we assume that after the reconstruction the entities that will benefict the most from the new status quo in Iraq will be US oil companies, then what this war ammounts to is:
- Having the US government spend taxpayer's money in the Defense industry to subsidize the US oil industry.
-------------
Please note that i'm only touching the economical side here. There's the whole human side (lives lost in both sides, the future of the surviving Iraqui people); political side (Bush's approval rates); and geopolitical side (will the rest of the world still trust the US?).
Re:Bull... (Score:3, Interesting)
Hmm, well, that's about $700 per capita per American, so it adds up to a couple of months of energy supply. Iraq has, what 15 % of the world's pro
This is a joke right? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously folks, in percentage of population, the US Military has already killed more Iraqi civilians than 9/11 killed Americans. Let's not worry about what cell phones the Iraqis will use after we win, and worry instead about whether or not it's possible for us to win.
Peace. As salaam alaikum.
Re:This is a joke right? (Score:5, Informative)
The obvious response to this is: so what? Percentage of the population? That's a pretty meaningless metric.
However, it's worth noting that you're actually correct... or may be, depending on how the numbers turn out.
September 11 killed about 3,000 Americans, out of a population of about 280 million. (All figures are rounded, of course, because I'm just too lazy to look them up for an argument as ridiculous as this one.) That's 0.0011%.
The Iraqi government claims that about 350 civilians have died during the war. Of course, they claim to have destroyed dozens of our tanks, too, so we know their claims are far from perfect. But let's go with the Iraqi number, just for kicks. There are about 25 million people in Iraq. That comes to 0.0014%. So by those numbers, you're right.
However, we only have confirmation of about 25 civilian deaths in Iraq. That's going to be too low, obviously, because we don't have confirmation of every single civilian death, but just to put a bracket around the numbers, that comes to exactly 0.0001%.
So whether or not there have been more Iraqi civilians killed as a percentage of total population than were killed on 9/11 remains to be seen; the percentages could be quite close, or they could be off by a factor of 10, depending on how the final math turns out.
But this is all just an exercise in arithmetic. It means nothing. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, so we're not there to exercise vengance. And if we were, we would still have a long way to go, because Iraq would still be 2,650 civilians short of the mark.
Let's not worry about what cell phones the Iraqis will use after we win, and worry instead about whether or not it's possible for us to win.
Nobody has the slightest doubt that we'll win. This has been, by some interpretations, the most successful military campaign in history, and that includes the ratio of civilians killed per ton of ordinance employed. In other words, this has been the most benign war in history so far, and yet we're still virtually unopposed. Our biggest concern right now, apart from avoiding civilian casualties, is harassment from irregulars behind our front lines. The biggest campaign of resistance the Iraqi forces can mount against us right now qualifies as a nuisance, and not even a significant nuisance.
There's no question that we're going to win.
Re:This is a joke right? (Score:3, Insightful)
September 11 killed about 3,000 Americans, out of a population of about 280 million.
We might be reminded that nationals of dozens of other countries were killed on 9/11. Look it up if you don't believe. Like a couple of hundred "non-Americans". It was the WORLD TRADE CENTER for Crissake. Sixteen bloody Jamaicans died! What the hell did they do to anyone? Do the math on the % harm to Jamaica. It was crime against humanity to be sure. The massacre in Rwanda doesn't make two lines in the newspaper,
Re:This is a joke right? (Score:5, Interesting)
How come? I mean, so far things have been going something like this:
Iraq: We shot down an Apache gunship!
US: Nope, we haven't lost any helicopters
Iraq: Well, here is a video-clip of that downed Apache
US: Uhhhhh, yeah we did lose a helicopter
Iraq: Our forces are still fighting in Umm Qasr
US: Nope, Umm Qasr is secure
Journalists: From what I saw, there's still fierce fighting going on there
US: OK, OK. We are still fighting in Umm Qasr
To me it seems that the Coalition denies or plays down any casualties or problems they face, untill they are proven to be wrong one way or the other. So when Iraq says they have destroyed dozen Abrams (we do know for sure that US has lost several tanks) and US denies it, I wouldn't take the word of US as gospel (I wouldn't take the word of Iraq as gospel either).
Re:This is a joke right? (Score:2, Interesting)
At about 220 civilian dead now for a country of under 25 million, compared to 3000 or so for a country of 300 million, I'd say the comparison is about right.
Now add millitary casualties that wouldn't have happenned without this warmongery. Hell, you might as well add in the US and British "Friendly Fire" casualties while you're at it.
Re:This is a joke right? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not talking about the people who starved during sanctions, as I'm aware that Saddam didn't spend all his oil for food money, and he stole as much of it as he could. I'm referring only to people who were killed by the current invasion.
Next time you're watching the bombs explode on CNN, remember how you felt on 9/11, and realize that the same thing is happening in Iraq, right now.
War Body Count < Pre-War Body Count (Score:5, Informative)
Re:This is a joke right? (Score:3, Interesting)
Even if this was completely true- it isn't- This is just even more justification to persecute the war- shouldn't we clean up our own mistakes?
Re:This is a joke right? (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/88244_sean2
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/publications/ira
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/01/17/iraq.chemical.s
Defend your viewpoint, ass!
Neutral arbitrators? How about Lebanon. (Score:2)
public good (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Financial benefits for US companies
or
2. The ability for US citizens to use their cell phones internationally and foriegn visitors to use their cell phones here.
Would the financial impact to US companies be short term? Would they benefit more from visitors paying for international roaming charges if they took the hit now?
Is Congressman Issa trying to improve the local economy of his constituents or does he believe this is the best course of action for the country?
Honestly, I have no idea.
this was my much better submission... (Score:5, Informative)
According to an article [theregister.co.uk] in The Register, Congressman Darrell Issa (R, CA) [house.gov] is pushing hard for CDMA to be the cell network of choice for Iraq. Why? Because GSM(Groupe Speciale Mobile) is French, and he claims that the only source of GSM equipment would be French/German companies(except for, say, Lucent [lucent.com], Motorola [motorola.com], and Nortel [nortelnetworks.com])...and we all know how popular the French are [cleveland.com]. Putting aside concerns about winning the war first and having your priorities in order(such as getting food there, before worrying about aide workers having Enhanced 911), Issa claims(incorrectly [google.com]) that only CDMA offers GPS integration for E911. I'm sure the large campaign contribution by Qualcomm to Issa [opensecrets.org] has absolutely nothing to do with the bill [loc.gov]. Talk about people who need to be introduced to a cluebat [userfriendly.org].
Whee here come the parasites... (Score:2, Insightful)
Honestly, the opportunists will take anything they can get. Especially when they have the ear of our unpresident. I can't believe that corporate hounddog got into office...But I guess we have to live with it. Even if you don't care about the other countries, you have to admit that they have every reason to hate us. We would hate us if we were in their position. Truly, if you were being shoved out of every economic situation and opportunity by the world heavyweight, wouldn't
GSM Phones (Score:2, Insightful)
Use FSM instead (Score:2, Funny)
Competition or GSM (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Competition or GSM (Score:5, Funny)
Exactly. Which is why we need to liberate Iran, Saudi Arabia and Syria next, and help them standardise on CDMA.
Btw, what are they using in Afghanistan now?
more info on rebuilding effort (Score:2)
Cryptome [cryptome.org] is hosting more information on the whole rebuilding effort in Iraq. One such article is this one [cryptome.org] which is the text of a new york times article and two pdf's from USAID. Should be of interest to anyone who's following the whole Iraq war and is interested in the aftermath.
CDMA Bias by Issa (Score:5, Insightful)
I THINK NOT.
This is just another example of politics being influenced by corporate desires and lobbying.
-davidu
Re:CDMA Bias by Issa (Score:2)
Another example: Halliburton (Score:3, Informative)
More than just US-centrism... (Score:2)
CDMA has a lot of things going over GSM, technically-wise, which I'm not going to bother to get into, because I haven't had several years of education in data encoding and communications so I can't speak with any great deal of force, but I do know that CDMA offers high-bandwidth, very reliable service (assuming the network is built properly), it's a newer
Re:More than just US-centrism... (Score:3, Interesting)
Keep hoping, because CDMA networks are not set up for GMS-style portable accounts, and they don't use SIM cards. Yes, CDMA2000 has some more features (though it's NOT broadband, even though they like calling it 3G it's really only 2.5G like GPRS), but it bloody well should, considering how much newer it is. You can do a lot more signal processing in cheap silicon nowadays than back when GSM was designed in the 80s, and
Greedy Fingers (Score:5, Insightful)
In other news (Score:5, Interesting)
The more damage US military does to Iraq's infrastructure, the more money will US corporations make on rebuilding. US government is planning to use Iraqi oil to pay for this enterprise.
Re:In other news (Score:5, Informative)
I'm sorry, but thats incorrect. The quote below with source proves it....
"Cheney divested himself of all interest in Halliburton, the largest U.S. oilfield services company, after the 2000 election." CNN Money [cnn.com]
Hope that helps clear things up
JOhn
Re:In other news (Score:5, Insightful)
What neither quote makes clear is that Cheney didn't think that maintaining stock options was a conflict of interest - he said words to this effect in public. It was only after a relatively large hoohaw in the press that he finally acquiesced. It is doubtful that he has changed his mind, divestiture was purely a face-saving political move. Given that, you can be pretty sure he (or rather his accountants) will have worked every angle and loophole to indirectly keep him "on the payroll" with Haliburton and who knows how many other companies.
For another example of this kind of mindset, look at Richard Perle who, after a couple of weeks of denial-tactics finally became too much of a liability, just like the stock options, to keep around. This guy, former Bush Sr top-dog and until today a Bush Jr top-dog too, was given $700K to convince the DoD that it would be ok for Global Crossing to self off to the Chinese. Why? Because his official top-dog title was "Chairman of the Defense Policy Board," an advisory panel to the Pentagon - making close to, if not the civilian with the most influence over the DoD. Not to mention the even larger issue of his ties to arab-owned corporations. Conflict of interest? Not in any dictionary of his.
This crony capitalism mindset is endemic in the current administration and as far as I am concerned is 100x more of a moral defect than boffing an intern or two, or even ten. Because instead of just screwing a few people, it screws most of the country for the benefit of just a few people. These guys (and democrats too, but they at least know enough to be embarrassed about it) have taken the term, "spoils system" to a whole new level.
Re:In other news (Score:5, Interesting)
In sparsely pop'd Oz CDMA goes a longer -distance- (Score:4, Informative)
If you leave the last big town, to go bush
in Australia, you might as well leave your
GSM handset behind, in favor of a CDMA unit.
Cheaper than sta.phones, the CDMA had greater
range (over flat terrain) & about the same
air-time costs as GSM, here...
So, that's the terrain of Iraq like, then?
Interesting Stuff Concerning Rep. Darrell Issa (Score:3, Interesting)
CDMA in Iraq: right choice, wrong reasons (Score:3, Insightful)
China is rolling out a WCDMA network, folks. Qualcomm isn't necessarily the flagbearer for the technology or the platform; it's no longer a US-only phenomenon.
GSM will be phased out over the next decade, cohabitating with WCDMA, as peoples' handsets are replaced by shiny new models with ridiculous multimedia features they won't use for years. Check the market for dual-band WCDMA/GSM mobile phones and notice how many of the major manufacturers are producing them.
Regretably, none of that matters to our friend, Mr. Issa. He and his backers are interested solely in making a quick buck. It's obvious to me that Iraq would be better served by allowing a privatized Iraq Telecom corporation to arise from the ashes of the old state-run telecom. Iraq Telecom should make its own decision about what kind of cellular technology to deploy, perhaps with the help of a US bank loan. That would be a minor boon for the US and a blissful telecommunications future for Iraq.
But, honestly...what'd you expect, from a politician?
GSM vs CDMA on technical issues (Score:5, Interesting)
GSM not as universal as most think.
CDMA is head and shoulders above - look at where the highspeed wireless is going - CDMA, not GSM. Plus CDMA is more efficient in its bandwidth usage than GSM. Remember GSM is still TDMA at its roots. So CDMA has better spectral efficiency.
Example: GSM provides 8 slots in a channel 200 kHz wide, while IS-136 provides 3 slots in a channel only 30 kHz wide. GSM therefore consumes 25 kHz per user, while IS-136 consumes only 10 kHz per user.
Plus you should take into account the terrain and desnity - Iraq probably is not all that population dense outside of Baghdad and Basra. CDMA really comes into its element when you are out in the countryside with few sites covering large expanses of land. Under these conditions CDMA provides extremely stable audio with few frame errors to mess things up. This is because Channel Pollution is almost non-existent in these situations. Under similar conditions TDMA suffers too readily from interference and it will often blank the audio. Many people who use CDMA systems in sparsely populated areas have given this technology extremely high marks.
Nex you should look at GPRS versus CDMA2000/1xRTT, and the costs to upgrade from these technologies to genuine 3G communications. Without going into the specifics, CDMA holds a slight advantage here as well.
So despite the obvious political motivations behind this decision, technologically speaking, it s actually a good decision to favor CDMA.
Re:GSM vs CDMA on technical issues (Score:5, Insightful)
It's very universal. Changing frequency doesn't mean having to change chipset design, infrastructure, etc.
CDMA is head and shoulders above - look at where the highspeed wireless is going - CDMA, not GSM.
They have different roots. GSM was specifically designed for voice data.
Plus CDMA is more efficient in its bandwidth usage than GSM. Remember GSM is still TDMA at its roots. So CDMA has better spectral efficiency.
TDMA vs CDMA was examined in depth in deciding the GSM standard. The committee decided that the TDMA system was superior (easier to build more accurate and reliable base stations was one of the factors IIRC).
Plus you should take into account the terrain and desnity - Iraq probably is not all that population dense outside of Baghdad and Basra. CDMA really comes into its element when you are out in the countryside with few sites covering large expanses of land. Under these conditions CDMA provides extremely stable audio with few frame errors to mess things up. This is because Channel Pollution is almost non-existent in these situations. Under similar conditions TDMA suffers too readily from interference and it will often blank the audio. Many people who use CDMA systems in sparsely populated areas have given this technology extremely high marks.
GSM is a compromise, which allows it to work well under both conditions. It had to satisfy all the members of ETSI, including Switzerland (sparse, all mountains) and Holland (totally flat, with large cities).
So despite the obvious political motivations behind this decision, technologically speaking, it s actually a good decision to favor CDMA.
It's not, because you restrict the technology (handsets, base stations, etc) to a couple of US companies. With GSM you can invite tenders from every company in the world, with an already mature market providing a lot of CHOICE for both handsets and infrastructure.
Phillip.
Re:GSM vs CDMA on technical issues (Score:4, Interesting)
Tell that to my 3 year old tri-band phone . Almost wherever I go (including most larger US cities) the first thing I do when I step of the plane is turn on my cellphone. And most of the time it'll pick up a provider that I can roam with immediately. It's so much more convenient than being without a cellphone or having to resort to renting one at ridiculous rates.
Whatever technological advantages you might think of, there are a couple of huge advantages with GSM: There's a much larger production volume for GSM handsets (face it, Europe tend to get the newest handsets before the US, and we have a much wider selection), and with a decent handset you'd be able to use it in practically any country in the world (including other countries in the region).
Considering the deployment of GSM it is clear that GSM is good enough, and that technical considerations therefore should be a secondary issue for most people considering building out a network - cost and convenience for the users should be much more important as that is what will drive sales.
That said, I think the important part of this is the idea that the idead that the US should have any say whatsoever over what Iraq does when "liberated" is disgusting. The US lost all legitimacy when it violated the UN charter and attacked a sovereign nation, and any hope for the US in getting any sort of credibility back will be lost if there's even the slightest little hint of US colonialism after the war.
An Insult to The Fighting, The Dead and Dying (Score:5, Insightful)
Women and children are being killed. Our friends, neighbors, brothers and sisters are killing them/being killed, and what is the US media reporting? What do we hear about?
Who makes the bucks from war.
Never mind that has already taken a heavy toll on any US legitimacy (the founding principles of the nation itself are threatened to be as illegitimate as its current "president"). Never mind that it's at a cost of billions in tax dollars (that our children, and their children will be paying for). Never mind that it will cost thousands of lives before it is finished (and possibly hundreds of thousands of lives as the ranks of Al Qaeda grow). Never mind that it's barely even begun!
Have you no decency? If you want to report on Iraq, report on something legitimate. Report on what's happening rather than the propaganda puff-pieces.
Report on the 28 year old plumber who drowned after being ordered to cross a canal in full battle dress. Or the 20 year old lifeguard who drowned trying to save him.
Report on the seven year old girl lying in a pool of her own blood, her intestines laying beside her.
Report on the fact that the people of Iraq don't want to be "liberated." And that our friends and families will be the ones to pay the highest price of all because of the dreadful mismanagement and miscalculation of the bush administration.
Fuck rebuilding. Fuck Saddam. There's an unjust war being wrought upon the innocent civilians of Iraq, as well as the innocent soldiers of the United States. This is not their war, this is the war of a few greedy people who don't even legitimately hold the positions they currently abuse.
The bush administration has shown time and again that it has no care for legitimacy, or truth. From the moment the first Florida recount started, they have shown that they care only for protecting their own interests. They have never had the interests of the US in mind. They have never cared about those men and women who are suffering and dying right now.
With a smug smile they say, "We will liberate you from your God, your money, and your dignity."
Re:An Insult to The Fighting, The Dead and Dying (Score:3, Insightful)
"Have you no decency? If you want to report on Iraq, report on something legitimate."
You are correct in that there are more important things going on with Iraq right now than what cell-phone system they get. However, as ludicrous as this all might sound, it is still important: the cell phone system Iraq eventually chooses or has chosen for them will indicate not only the real motiations behind their 'liberation', but also what choices they have on any number of aspects of their future. They can expect
Re:An Insult to The Fighting, The Dead and Dying (Score:4, Informative)
And everybody knows it was an accident. But okay, let's have it your way. Oh no, blood and gore! Let's end the war! Would ending the war end the suffering? Saddam would like us to pack up and go home so he could resume power and get back to the tyrant's regular business of inflicting suffering of a brutal and excruciating nature on his subjects; this kind of suffering as opposed to the comparatively few, inadvertent casualties due to the war.
Having no war in Iraq allows persecution. Having this just war is causing suffering for a time, but will end most of the suffering in the long run.
Horrible suffering like what you mentioned is imposed affliction du jour in Saddam's regime. Its torture methods include: [state.gov]
Report on the fact that the people of Iraq don't want to be "liberated."
Nine in 10 Iraqis welcome US invasion [asia1.com.sg]
With a smug smile they say, "We will liberate you from your God, your money, and your dignity."
"You just arrived. You're late. What took you so long? God help you become victorious. I want to say hello to Bush, to shake his hand. We came out of the grave. [guardian.co.uk]" - liberated Iraqi
Listen to the experience of a former human shield in Iraq [telegraph.co.uk]:
Re:An Insult to The Fighting, The Dead and Dying (Score:3, Insightful)
Report on the 28 year old plumber who drowned after being ordered to cross a canal in full battle dress. Or the 20 year old lifeguard who drowned trying to save him.
Report on the seven year old girl lying in a pool of her own blood, her intestines laying beside her.
Report on the man who kissed the Americans and asked them why they didn't come sooner. His son had made disparging remarks about Saddam so he was taken beaten, tortured, and final
Re:An Insult to The Fighting, The Dead and Dying (Score:3, Insightful)
Legitimacy makes all the difference.
If the bush administration was actually working through the UN then I would be right there cheering this on. I am in no way a Saddam supporter, but I don't think that the US has any right to do this without the support of the United Nations and a real, legitimate coallition.
Unless it is attacked first, the UN is the only organization which has legitimacy in addressing any problems that the US may have with another country. The bush
Right now ... (Score:4, Insightful)
So here comes a US senator whose only concern is what mobile phone system one should install when it's all over. Quite frankly, this is so cynical. Not only against the iraq people but also against US soldiers. As a soldier, I'd really like to get the message: 'Go soldier, risk your life, so we can open up some market for mobile phones.'
If some European politician made any such proposal or in fact any attempt to "secure a market" at this point in time he'd be thrown out of office.
That is what makes people turn away from the US. The lack of tactfullness. Double standards (Yes, we respect the Geneva Convention - whenever it is useful to us). Turning one or two blind eyes (Who gave Saddam weapons of mass destruction when he was the bulwark against Iran?). The will to break international law whenever it serves the purpose.
The rest of the world may be afraid of the US. But there is no respect.
"Terrorism is the war of the poor and war is the terrorism of the rich. I can't see any difference between them."
Sir Peter Ustinov, UNICEF
I think Iraq wants food and water first... (Score:3, Insightful)
And the US of A can only talk about cellphones. I don't know but then you really are out of touch with reality. Give the iraqi people food and water and let them rebuild basic infrastructure first. This will cost a few years. After that the debates about the unnecessary gadgets can begin.
"most widely used" (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't you love half-truths when you see 'em? GSM is not only the most widely used standard "in surrounding countries", it's the most widely used standard, period.
GSM: 330 million world wide users
CDMA: 67 million world wide users
But, it seems more important to purchase national patriotic technology than good technology. (That must be why Americans still use Windows. After all, Linux originates in Europe and must so be inferior, by definition. ;)
Let's buy steel from US companies, even if it's more expensive because they neglected to modernize their factories (in Europe, just about everything was rebuilt after WW2 - and the debts for foreign help, also from the US, have long since been paid. It was a very painful process, but it paid off). And because foreign steel is now cheaper and better, phone George to introduce some nice import taxes.
Forget that the white "paint" which is used for most national buildings (eg. white house) is made in Germany. Forget that most of the cars that run the US are produced in Germany or by German companies. (BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagen, anyone?). Forget that under the hood of most cars made in the US you see European labels like Bosch, Siemens, Philips, etc.
While you're at it, ban not only french fries, french toast, and french kissing, but also french red wine (which might be considered a merciful fate for the wine, considering that Americans mix it with Coke!). And all that just for the fact that - understandably - most of Europe has a problem with war, for any reason whatsoever. It's even in the German constitution: Germany is not allowed to participate in non-defensive warfare. The constitution which was written by the US after WW2.
I'm waiting for the USA to ban Hamburgers, which originate from Hamburg (the 'ham' story is a myth!), Franfurters, Schnitzel, Mortadella, etc.
I remember a quote from a demonstrant in the US: "If we had invested the money now spent in war in proper education soon enough, the war wouldn't even have started."
Right.
READ THIS (Score:3, Informative)
Core points:
1. There already is a limited GSM network in Iraq, KurdTel 900
2. The Iraqi government has ordered a GSM network to be installed, but UN sanctions have delayed it
3. gsmcoverage.co.uk has this article on the subject:
Plans to deploy a CDMA network in Iraq (28-Mar-03)
The California, USA, Congressman Darrell Issa has initiated a campaign to promote CDMA as the technology of choice for any future mobile phone network in Iraq. He has written to U.S. Agency for International Development demanding that the American CDMA system be used in preference to a system that he considers inherently European, and specifically French.
His letter harks back to the older, and long abandoned name for GSM - Groupe Speciale Mobile, presumably for its French language overtones, as opposed to Global System for Mobile Communications, its anglophile name today. He says that if "European" GSM technology is deployed in Iraq, much of the equipment used to build the cell phone system would be manufactured in France, Germany, and elsewhere in western and northern Europe. Furthermore, royalties paid on the technology would flow to French and European sources, not U.S. patent holders.
He seems to be under the impression therefore that Motorola has no interest in bidding for a GSM infrastructure contract - nor would Lucent, or Canada's Nortel Networks. This may well concern the shareholders of those companies who would be expecting them to bid for any available contracts.
He also says that CDMA phones incorporate GPS location technology, which may be a surprise to the vast majority of cell phone owners who will be hunting through their handset manuals looking for this function. His legitimate concern is that relief workers could be kidnapped or attacked, and a location aware handset would then enable them to be found. However, inserting GPS into a cell phone is nothing to do with whether it is GSM or CDMA - but down to the handset manufacturer simply implementing a location based solution. Also, GPS is not the only solution for locating a cell phone, network based solutions exist that can be deployed on both technology platforms. The fact that a GPS handset will be able to give its location anywhere in Iraq is pointless if the phone is out of cellular coverage though.
Of course, the greatest irony could be that a CDMA network is deployed - and Nokia wins the bulk of the handset sales contracts. Ironic, as Nokia, one of the "northern Europe" companies that Issa wants to block from working in Iraq makes CDMA handsets, but uses its own proprietary chipsets and doesn't pay royalties to Qualcomm.
It may be worth noting that Congressman Issa represents San Diego, hometown of Qualcomm who owns the CDMA technology used in cell phones. Also, in January, the US government's, National Communications System (NCS) awarded a priority connection contract, ensuring phone service would be unaffected by network congestion to T-Mobile, a GSM network.
GSM is not French (Score:5, Insightful)
GSM may be an an abbreviation for French words, but GSM is a global standard originally designed by a group of European companies and organisations. Loads of countries were involved, not just France.
This argument that French products shouldn't be used is racist. I know Americans like their country, but this is racism and xenephobia on a huge scale. Shame on you all.
Finally, who gave the USA permission to build this stuff? Privatising the services in Iraq doesn't benefit them, and definately isn't democracy - it's THEFT. The services and infrastructure belongs to Iraq and after they have a democratic elected government the choice of how to run public services belongs to them.
Please note that I am not against Americans in any way, but your government really pisses me off.
Re:GSM is not French (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes.
You had better try asking some French people - you will soon find out that they do not, in any way, regard being "French" as a matter of having a certain ancestry. Not suprising really, given that the current inhabitants of France do not share a common ancestry, and in so far as that might have been true in the past is was an ancestry that was shared with Britan, Germany, and a bunch of other European nations.
international law does not mandate installing a government
Advice to the simple-minded (Score:3, Insightful)
But consider what's at play here: 9/11 demonstrated that American cities are vulnerable to catastrophic attack by terrorists. At that point it was prudent to ask what nations are in the position of being (1) run by sociopaths with a record of mass killings which (2) have or can afford to acquire catastrophic weapons and (3) are in ideological or religious proximity to those with demonstrated terrorist abilities. The whole claim of the Bush administration is that it is legitimate self-defense to remove such threats to our cities.
Saddam is a sociopath who has killed many hundreds of thousands. It is extremely unlikely this war will kill more Iraqis than Saddam's own forces would have killed this year anyway
Given the overwhelming historical logic that requires that we act against him now - not in a couple of years after he's got things set up to his best advantage - is there something evil about our being concerned that in return for the vast cost of this action to us in lives and treasure that we receive some small economic opportunities afterwards? If the US finances a new phone system after the war, should we do it to French specs? This level of "purity" would be absurd, IMHO.
GSMA replies. (Score:3, Informative)
Don't know if this is in duplicate, but here's the full text [unstrung.com] of the GSMA's reply.
Nice read, I might add, especially the bit about an American company installing a GSM network in (US-bombed) Afghanistan.
Re:Isn't this a bit premature (and U.S.-Centric)? (Score:2)
Hrm, I'd venture to say that some of these post-war contracts were decided months before the war even began.
The war started last week, and Halliburton [forbes.com] has already secured a contract to help "Rebuild Iraq". A contract settled in less then 7 days... and it favors friends of our Vice President Dick Cheney. Gee, what a suprise.
Re:Makes sense (Score:5, Interesting)
Two points.
First, surely the primary goal is to pick products which benefit the people of Iraq? Otherwise what's the point of rebuilding the country?
Secondly, as the article from The Register [theregister.co.uk] points out, a lot of US companies (e.g. Lucent, Motorola) make GSM equipment. Why choose one US company over another? Is it the faux anti-French lunacy which is going around at the moment? Or, perhaps, the campaign contributions [thinkinglinks.info] from Qualcomm?
Hard to say.
Re:Well, too bad for them (Score:3, Funny)
I'm not perfect. I've probably let one or two slip through.