Problems in Computer Conservation 256
sobachatina writes "The Computer museum at The University of Amsterdam has an interesting page with examples of the problems that they run into maintaining 20+ year old hardware such as rubber rollers from card readers melting or mold growing inside CRT terminals.I hate it when I get mold growing inside my monitor!"
No moldy monitors @home (Score:5, Funny)
Just check out their state-of-the-art equipment!
tcd004
Re:No moldy monitors @home (Score:3, Funny)
Wow you have 20+ year old monitors? Wow. May I borrow your punch card reader for a while? And I suppose your account maintenance software is written in ALGOL as well.
ALGOL? What a horrid name! The name Al'Gol translates from Arabic as "The Ghoul" (and is the name of a star in the constellation Perseus).
Al'Gol invented the internet! (Score:2)
Yet another reason... (Score:4, Interesting)
please explain (Score:2, Insightful)
My homebrew amplifier is using 2A3 tubes from the 1930's, I don't see a problem.
Re:please explain (Score:2)
(Yes, this is horribly OT.)
Re:Yet another reason... (Score:2)
Unfortunately those solid state things die too. If you're lucky and all the packaging is ceramic and not plastic even the chips grow little connectors when operating and short themselves out. If you kept them very cool or never power them up, they would last a very long time, but diffusion will get them eventually. Especially with the tiny transistors in today's chips, when you can count the atoms on your hands and toes between two signals that should never cross you know
Re:Yet another reason... (Score:2)
Re:Yet another reason... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Yet another reason... (Score:2)
Cedar [compaq.com], I suppose...
Mold? That's nothing. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Mold? That's nothing. (Score:2)
Re:Mold? That's nothing. (Score:2)
Re:Mold? That's nothing. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Mold? That's nothing. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Mold? That's nothing. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Mold? That's nothing. (Score:2)
tip it side to side, and a distinct slurshing sound.
Open it up and find Urine, the whole thing was full of Bunny urine from the customers pet bunny.
The kicker is it took a few days for it to go out and they continued to use it.
And with all the porn people look at today... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:And with all the porn people look at today... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:And with all the porn people look at today... (Score:2)
oh wait
Mold, nothin'! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Mold, nothin'! (Score:4, Insightful)
(I've tested this too)
I actually retain things much better when stoned.
Actually, when sober I tend to develop symptoms of ADD, which I've shown since elementary school.
I find smoking relaxes me, and I tend to be able to focus and work better.
I've actually had managers encourage me to "light one up" before work, and have teachers tell me how much better, and how much faster I work when high.
In fact, I'm high now.
and to stay (somewhat) on topic:
i think we will have to come to accept the fact that at one point, we need to part with our hardware. Imagine a car, an icebox, or a washing machine. Nothing has an infinate life span.
My RS-80 still works like a charm though, and no...you can't have it
Maybe... (Score:5, Funny)
Hermetically sealed vacuum containers (Score:4, Interesting)
And if all else fails, take a picture and put it up when the original machine has fallen to pieces.
Re:Hermetically sealed vacuum containers (Score:3, Interesting)
That way, what ever that was in there would have been killed by the ozone then if it wasn't killed, it'll have to live in an oxygen and CO2 free enviorment. Add to that, all things plant based would die because there would be the lack of UV light for photosyntesis and at the same time, you don't get the damage UV deals on sensitive materials.
Re:Hermetically sealed vacuum containers (Score:5, Funny)
Since there is no conclusive evidence that exposing decrepit hardware to large quantities of dark is harmful in any way, the systems should last for a few million years, easy. Just don't bury them near the edge of a continental plate.
Re:Hermetically sealed vacuum containers (Score:2)
Re:Hermetically sealed vacuum containers (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Hermetically sealed vacuum containers (Score:2)
Yeah, ozone eats rubber like nobody's business. He must have meant nitrogen.
Re:Hermetically sealed vacuum containers (Score:2)
Chemical components (Score:2)
Add to that things like capacitor electrolytes, and I think the only place we're going to be able to maintain old computers is as VMs, such as Amiga Forever.
Xix.
hrm (Score:3, Funny)
That's when you know it's time to buy an lcd.
Heh (Score:2, Redundant)
Re:Heh (Score:3, Funny)
Lay off the crack pipe.
New Moderation Category (Score:2, Funny)
I mean, really. Your nick is only different to "Anonymous Coward" by one character, and I still didn't misread that.
This deserves to be modded, but not +Funny. Did anyone else read that as -1, Dummy?
Re:Heh (Score:2)
I question whether or not you can. I was just talking about flipping a couple of letters.
What's the matter, don't have a sense of humor? Perhaps your love life is lacking, so you express hostility towards people on a virtually anonymous forum? Maybe you're frustrated because you don't have the courage to come out of the closet?
Poor guy. I hope your life grants you happiness one day.
CDR - advances in durability? (Score:5, Insightful)
Admitted, paper lasts very long, there is enough ancient evidence
But look e.g. here http://www.osta.org/technology/cdqa13.htm,
they say that CD-Rs last 50-200 years(!)
Compare that to magnetic tapes, discs, etc.
But the final solution for very important data may well be the engraving into gold-plated aluminium, as the NASA did it for pioneer 10...
It seems that mechanically changed media (stones, CD recordables etc.) have the longest lifetime.
Re:CDR - advances in durability? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:CDR - advances in durability? (Score:2)
There has been a movement lately towards acid-free paper, even for cheaper books, which should keep longer.
Re:Insert stoner response here (Score:5, Insightful)
CD-Rs aren't "mechanically changed." (Score:4, Interesting)
There are several known cases of bacteria and fungus attacking this organic dye, not including the obvious danger that heat and sunlight pose to it.
"Regular" CDs use a polycarbonate substrate instead which is literally stamped into the CD during an injection moulding process. THIS is a mechanical change, giving the advantage that a stamped CD could very well last 50-200 years, whereas a burned CD-R that is not hermetically sealed will be lucky to last 10-20.
It seems that what we need is an inorganic hybrid of a stamping machine and a CD-R burner, something that can (using a much more powerful laser) physically inscribe the bits into a polycarbonate-like material. The nice thing about a technology like this being adopted, is that the firmware could be modified to allow the same machine to create CDs, DVDs, and whatever else they throw at us within that form-factor. Even better would be the ability to come up with your own (Open Source?) disc data storage format.
Anyone want to play devil's advocate on that idea? Apart from cost, I could see consumables and waste being an issue.
Jason Fisher
CDs, nope. (Score:3, Informative)
You think mold is a problem? (Score:2, Funny)
There was an ant crawling around INSIDE the lcd. You could see him running around
Re:You think mold is a problem? (Score:5, Funny)
*commence rotten tomato barrage*
Re:You think mold is a problem? (Score:2)
Vermin (Score:2)
My strangest was baby mice. Popped a PC (DEC rainbow) open in my shop and saw these little squirming hairless fetuses, it freaked me right out.
Ah, the good old days. Think I'll go try to find Thayer's Quest [dragons-lair-project.com] on Ebay.
Re:You think mold is a problem? (Score:3, Funny)
actually, its so common its sickning. I ran several pawn shops that dealt mainly in electronics when I lived in TX. omg. we saw roaches in TVs, stereos, VCR's. One TV had a hole in the casing at the top. it appears they used it to put chicken bones (I swear to living God). Had a few chickens worth, and a huge nest of very happy roaches.
On a funnier note, you would be surprised how many pe
Re:You think mold is a problem? (Score:2, Interesting)
I retired my Compaq transportable 8088 (Score:5, Interesting)
I'll be able to custom build a replacement now with the new VIA stuff, and the replacement will undoubtably be "better" than the Compaq, but it's still just plain annoying to have to take a grand or so out of pocket to replace something that did it's job ( and that I only payed $50 for in the first place) and could have continued to do so ad infinitum had a few $5 parts been available.
And of course its basically working carcass is now sitting in some landfill because none of the local shops even considered it worth taking up space if I gave it to them for free.
And this could still be a continuing issue. One of the surest ways to force DRM "enabled" machines on the majority of the populace is to simply phase out the bits of the machines people already have making them impossible to keep going.
It might take 20 years, but businesses seem to find the patience they otherwise lack when it comes to ways to grind down the consumer to the level they desire.
KFG
Re:I retired my Compaq transportable 8088 (Score:3, Interesting)
No, the reason you can't get parts is that people are not interested in keeping old ones running. It is cost-prohibitive, and there is very little demand.
Now, if DRM gets forced upon us, you won't be able to count the sheer number of "kit" computers we will see without the DRM bits. Hey, how far can they really tak
Computer Museum, live demonstrations (Score:2, Interesting)
Keyboards (Score:5, Funny)
I used to put 'em through the dishwasher.
Works like a charm.
(just remember to remove the circuitry, m'kay?)
Re:Keyboards (Score:2)
Works like a charm.
(just remember to remove the circuitry, m'kay?)
Doesn't work with M$ keyboards tho (the only ones that don't give me RSI), since their circuitry is delicately layered on 3 pieces of plastic that have to line up perfectly and are impossible to position till the case is 99% closed.... assholes.
Re:Keyboards (Score:2)
There's usually no need to do that when you put your keyboard in the dishwasher. Just make sure the thing is completely dry before you plug it back in. It's about the only sane way to ever get all the Coke out of your keyboard...
The trusty Kenmore dishwasher is commonly used in a number of electronics firms to remove solder flux and other cruft from prototype boards.
Re:Keyboards (Score:3, Funny)
Just keep using it until a dull gray sheen covers the keys.
One speck of dust is easily spotted. Multiply that by a million and it just looks like the natural color of the keyboard.
Also applicable to cars and geeks.
Re:Keyboards (Score:2, Informative)
Ten points for google.
Re:Keyboards (Score:2, Interesting)
Example: If you like history or non-fiction even a little and want to understand how the world works read anything by Robert Caro. My favorite book is The Power Broker, but "Means of Ascent" is a good start. He has one of the best analytical minds out there, and you'll wa
computer execution (Score:3, Funny)
plug the thing up the net, pay some cobol programmer to write a server, then put a wish fulfillment story on slashdot to the effect of "proven: microsoft stole source code from linus" or "proven: mp3 pirating good for the economy" and then watch the poor old decrepit things melt or explode.
That defective HD (Score:2)
squeeeeeeee-gggrrrrrr!
Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper, USNR (Score:2, Interesting)
Probably about a billion.
def: nanosecond: wire approx 11.98 Inch long, if you don't know why already then you wouldn't be interested.
Re:Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper, USNR (Score:2)
Hopper's law, I presume. Darn, I wish I had one of these
Re:Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper, USNR (Score:2)
I envy you. I hear that she was a fantastic lady.
Can you tell more about the wires? I know the nanosecond story, but where does the wire fit in? Is 11.98 inches the length that an electron travels in a nanosecond?
Assembler. (Score:2)
Seems like a big 'duh' today, but at the time it was revolutionary. As was her assembler.
Re:Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper, USNR (Score:2)
Lengths.... (Score:2)
Not to nitpick but check your math (Score:2)
Difference between a line and a cube.
If I take 100 cm^3 end to end, I get a box 1cmx1cmx100cm. This is the same as 0.01mx0.01mx1m. This is not quite the same as a m^3, which would be 100cm^3x100cm^3x100cm^3. When I do the math, I get 1x10x6 cm^3/m^3 (1000000cm^3/m^3) So we have 1000000ml/m^3. This means that we have 1000 liters per cubic meter.
As
Re:Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper, USNR (Score:2)
Related knowledge base for hobbyists (Score:5, Informative)
o Keeping old hardware alive [google.com]
o Keeping old CPU's alive [google.com]
(In addition to this stuff, USENET of course has a number of groups dealing with specific older hardware.)
Disposable Culture (Score:5, Interesting)
Okay, we WILL be leaving behind mountains of trash that future cultures will probably be mining for raw materials.
Re:Disposable Culture (Score:2)
Guess we'll never find out for sure.
Re:Disposable Culture (Score:2)
Re:Disposable Culture (Score:2)
Re:Disposable Culture (Score:2)
Stonehenge (Score:2)
Re:Disposable Culture (Score:2)
Give me even one example of a skyscraper that has been torn down because of metal fatigue, and not for some other reason ( disused, make way for a bigger tower, etc)
Re:Disposable Culture (Score:2)
Actually we has one torn down in Philly. It caught fire halfway up. The fire burned only 3 floors, but they had to tear down the whole stucture.
It took them 3 years.
ObSlashdottedJoke (Score:2)
Been there, didn't do that. (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, after about a dozen of these loads the little rubber wheel attached to the motor fell off, no more contact with the strips. I tried tons of things, tape, pieces of plastic, shaved down washers, nothing worked. I was quite sad when I had to throw it away, it was a fun little toy. I'm sure that now, being older, I could have fixed it. Maybe if I had kept it and fixed it I could still be using it to this day.
These things wear out and break down but I think if you have enough time, money and resources you could probably keep them going forever.. But, is it worth it? For me it would have been... for the sentimental value.
Geoffeg
Re:Been there, didn't do that. (Score:2, Informative)
I was quite sad when I had to throw it away...
Argh! Older TI's had lifetime warranties! My dad had one of those that he bought in college. It died sometime in the late 80's/early 90's and they sent him a TI95 (wierd qwerty calc with a cartridge slot) and a pile of cartridges to replace it. Never throw away an old TI calc; you never know what they'll send you as an "equivalent model"
Keep the old machines! (Score:4, Interesting)
Consider this: In my business, people are using machines as old as 30 years and some may be quite a bit older than those. These machines have everything from punch card readers to tape readers to special floppy drives that are impossible to find nowadays. And of course, these parts go bad, and as luck would have it in this industry, replacing one of these pieces of machinery can completely break a business. Especially with the economy doing as badly as it is now, and manufacturing is at such a low that everybody in this industry is suffering. But I digress.
The point I'm trying to make is this: If these things (CRTs with mold, rubber wheels melting, etc) are critical to the operation of a really old computer, then someone needs to manufacture them, just like people still manufacture replacement parts for old cars. This is most likely a better idea than replacing these systems with new ones for the following reason: These old systems are proven. A lot was invested into making them reliable and whatever bugs exist are well known by now. Replacing these systems would introduce problems for a long time to come... problems like software not working properly, which is a problem that management has a very difficult time accepting. Try telling your boss that some buffer wasn't flushed and therefore $50,000 just went down the drain. A rubber wheel melting and being replaced is a lot easier to explain to one's manager because everybody knows what a rubber wheel is. And how much does a rubber wheel cost? Even if it has to be specially manufactured and costs the end user $100.00, that's a hell of a lot cheaper than re-engineering the whole damn computer network. And putting up with stupid management (of which I am a member) giving you shit because three months have passed and the new computer network STILL isn't operational due to some stupid SQL program or perl script that has yet to be written, and we've gone ahead and ordered that rubber wheel anyway.
Negra Modelo. Me llamo Juanito Rodriguez y soy alcoholico.
Re:Keep the old machines! (Score:2)
I think eternally appeasing management with retrofitted old technology is unlikely to save money in the long run. Computers are usually far more complicated than cars, and the cars that are as complicated have computers in them. As time wears on, more parts need more frequent replacement
Keep the layers seperate (Score:3, Interesting)
I maintain some really old thermal wax colour printers that have crumbling rubber wheels and it *sucks*: The consumables cost a ton, parts are extortio
Short lifespan (Score:3, Interesting)
Electromechanical gear from the 1960s often still works. Working cash registers and jukeboxes from the 1940s and 1950s aren't that rare.
It's getting worse as gates get smaller, too. Transistors used to last for many decades; now a decade is a good run.
These problems still haven't been solved (Score:2)
So what happens 30 years from now when my Athlon is sitting in the museum. Will they still have to clean out my keyboard? I expect so. Also what about a hard disk head crashing? Yup still would. So I ask what do we nee
How will we preserve access to our digital informa (Score:2)
More Computer Mishaps (Score:2)
The mechanical is easily sorted out... (Score:2)
Old but still functional (Score:2, Interesting)
1. An Acer keyboard, (Model 6512, Circa 1994) I am typing on it right now. This thing is built like a brick and I happened on it when by workplace gave away all the pre-Y2K computers to the employees. Much stronger than an old IBM keyboard and built to last. It just happens to have an ATX plug on it. When I snapped a Ctrl key on a much more modern keyboard playing a game, I picked this thing up off the pile of old equipment because it was the only thing that would work
Mold (Score:2, Funny)
Unfortunately the ADM3A doesn't work. It's got raster, but those hundreds of TTL chips ju
I can see it now.. (Score:2)
50 years from now, there'll be a carefully preserved PC in a museum, and they'll spend hours trying to figure out why
their Windows display crashes after a few hours, not relising that this is a normal feature of the OS
-- Jim.
Re:A Humble Suggestion (Score:2, Insightful)
2. it's a museum...
3. there is old that has to be conserved. (See my other post).
Re: Humble Replies (Score:2)
2.: You have probably seen enough of these boxes and stuff so you won't go into a computer museum. But others haven't, are interested, and they go.
3. There is sometimes older scientific data, still of relevance, that has to be recovered.
Re: Humble Replies (Score:5, Informative)
2. A museum should contain items that are interesting to others. How many would venture into a junkyard of mold computers to look at the "exhibits?"
I just took a postdoctoral position in the Netherlands, and my office is one floor above this Computer Museum, as I discovered only a couple weeks ago (and now I realise why my network connection has been slow for much of the day...). I think the exhibits are quite fascinating, and give enormous insight into how computing was done thirty years ago. It really gives one an appreciation for how much computing has changed---not merely the technology, but the approach to doing computer science. So there's one person anyway, though I didn't come to look at the mold in particular.
3. Perserving crap serves no purpose. Why not start a museum of Gremlins, Pintos, Festivas, Yugos... (See my other posts)
Well there's a brilliant argument. By that measure, historical (as opposed to artistic or natural) museums would be largely empty, precisely because most of the artifacts therein were perfectly ordinary, everyday items. What you call crap, may well be a priceless treasure for an archaeologist ten centuries hence, attempting to glean some insight into the dawn of the machine era. It seems laughable now, as it no doubt would if you had told a potter in the early Bronze age that is work would be considered a valuable treasure thousands of years hence.
Mouser
Re: Humble Replies (Score:2)
Ha! Touché. Well, I've plenty of those floating around already, though I don't plan on being around to cash them in a thousand years hence, either...really, they'll only become valuable if there are only a few around anyway, so maybe I should hoard them
Cheers,
Mouser
Re:A Humble Suggestion (Score:2)
Re:A Fair Evaluation (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:i must have good luck... (Score:3, Interesting)
Me, I'm getting what will be the jewel of my collection, a Intergraph Interpro 6000. Clipper C300 (I think) cpu, which is weird even by my standards. But the hard drive is gone... while it uses SCSI which is easy to replace, the original operating system is long gone. CLIX. Try ebaying for that. And you've all heard of 3w3 or 13w3 monitor connectors... but 24w7? It makes my brain hurt just looking at the thing.
And how about my PDP-11/04 ? I can't even be sure what
Re:Problem: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I have some old computers (Score:2)
Me = Sick with envy.
Well, maybe not Robotron, but the other two took up a substantial portion of my youth. I met my best friend playing Xevious. Got to the point where I could wrap the game.
Re:I have some old computers-Documentation. (Score:3, Insightful)
Can you tell that I'm bitter about my recent experiences with dead or dying slot one and socket 370 boards and various VGA monitors?