Buying a Small, Light Linux Notebook Computer? 1048
"I have no Windows software and will not be running any, not even via WINE. I have no
desire to go through the hassle of purchasing software I'm not going to use and
then fighting to get a token rebate that doesn't actually equate to the cost of a Windows license. Nor am I interested in buying a machine that was purchased with a Windows license, and simply having Windows erased with no refund given.
So far I've found iDot Computers, who will sell laptops with no OS installed. Unfortunately, their lightest,
smallest offering is a hefty 2.8kg brick, 3cm bigger than the iBook in width and depth. What I really want is something comparable to a Toshiba Libretto or Sony VAIO R505--except that neither of those companies want to sell me a machine without Windows.
I'm sure plenty of Slashdot readers have faced the same problem--what's the solution?"
Fujitsu P2000 Series (Score:3, Interesting)
here is a Link [fujitsupc.com] to the fujitsu website for it.
i have an older version with a slower 800mhz processor and 4 megs of video ram. it struggles with the latest divx encodes unplugged, but plugged in they display fine. The best feature is its real life 8-10 hour battery life. i could never go back to a 2 hour laptop.
www.aslab.com (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm currently buying linux servers from them, but I saw that they also have laptops
Re:Emperor Linux (Score:3, Interesting)
That disc isn't free. The vendor (should have) paid Microsoft for bundling it with the machine. That cost is passed on to the buyer.
Also referred to as "the Microsoft tax".
a slashdot orginal (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Knoppix. (Score:5, Interesting)
Kind of ironic that you're not permitted to 'test' the machine you're about to fork out several thousand dollars for.
When I was last searching for a laptop I encountered this brick-wall mentality, consequently I ended up telling them "Oh, in that case, no sale, goodbye" ( Commissions obviously doesn't exist in sales any more ).
As for the reasoning behind the no-fiddle mentality, it's because they're afraid that you'll install some sort of hacker software.
This is not so hard, is it? (Score:1, Interesting)
Geez, buy a couple of magazines, go to some vendors websites, use Google and find out wether the box you want to buy has been successfully used with linux yet.
On another note, I would like to clean up my garden using linux, anybody want to help?
Go refurb! (Score:2, Interesting)
I keep looking at laptops nowadays, and keeping getting PO'ed at vendors that put a 14" screen in a 15" case. The damn thing looks nice, but is BIG and HEAVY. Then the keyboards on the 12" Sonys looks small. Why don't manufacturers keep making 13" displays???
Go with the ibook... (Score:1, Interesting)
If I were you I would decide now if you want OS X or not. If not than I would buy a used ibook online (rage128 based). You could easily spend less-than $1k on this. If you would like to use OS X and don't care so much about running linux than I would fork out some cash for the newer ibooks, which aren't as well supported in linux, or go for the 12in powerbook (go for the g-spot).
Some ppclinux sites which might be useful:
http://www.ppckernel.org
http://www.penguinppc
http://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/
Remember that their is no such thing as a perfect machine. Everything is about your needs!
Twinhead N1400 (Score:2, Interesting)
(One of the main reasons I bought this computer was because the retailer gave me a brochure which listed Linux as a supported operating system. At the very least, this allows you to take it back if Linux doesn't go)
Linux runs well on it, after a bit of a play with the drivers (support from the company hasn't been great, but it's easy enough to get everything working). It's a P4 1.7GHz (1.2 on batteries), VGA & SVideo out, a firewire port, 14.1" screen at 1024x768, 3 USB2.0 ports, CDR/DVD drive, onboard ethernet & modem, 1 PCMCIA slot and optional internal 802.11b. It's small, light, and it looks cool.
Best of all, it was one of the cheapest Notebooks I was looking at, $2800 AUD :)
I'd say local connections helped G get his refund. (Score:3, Interesting)
mindset... you know the one: "everybody knows
everybody"
I'd bet that G's dad's Cisco connections did
more to get G the cheque from Toshiba than
anything else, even if the dad in question
didn't have to lift a finger to make it happen.
I don't think that the not-so-well-connected
(read: needy, eg, student of Linux) computer
buyer would get the same hearing - let alone
a similar refund.
To test this: How many -other- Australians
managed to win similar refunds, at about the
same time (ie, even -after- G's [uncashed]
refund cheque was photographed & published
online)?
Not too many...
"Plenty of good info"...? Doubtful at best.
How good depends on how many, who do similar
footwork, will -ever- get -their- refunds,
in future.
Good means effective, not just -apparently- so.
Now, if someone had complained (eg to Oz's
ACCC), eg that vendor(s) were requiring them
to buy unwanted product/license/software from
another source, ie just to get the chance to
buy the computer they wanted to purchase...
-that- might have got a refund-right for every
Linux user.
But, no, that wasn't how G did it... He stopped
when he could show (without cashing) the photo
of his refund check... let the others do their
own haggling...
Read: Re-Invent the refund [paper-chase] wheel!
Result: -Lots- have visited the online photo
of the uncashed check but -few- have
got a refund of their own.
Com'on people, the only way to change this
is to work a bit smarter... & together... ie,
if you want to win, not just cheer-lead...
Obligatory Powerbook answer (Score:5, Interesting)
It's been said, but not like this.
Look, what you really want is a PowerBook. You know it, everyone here knows it. You just won't admit it.
So let's compare features. The Apple certainly has no potential whatsoever of running Microsoft Windows except through some complete emulation/virtualization software. Score one for Apple. The Apple comes with an actual GUI far superior to Microsoft Windows (not even a contest) and much more polished than your typical UNIX GUI. Score another (or a couple) for Apple.
Want more? Well, your Mac is actually capable of running Microsoft Office should you later find yourself in a bind and be REQUIRED to deal with it to put food on the table. On the plus side, you can always pirate it and you don't need Windows or Windows emulation software to run it. That's worth about a half a point (MS Office isn't that great in my book). Your Mac will also be able to run just about any open source program you want. Furthermore, Apple has now even decided to provide an official version of X11 which they have even extended to allow full access to the OpenGL extensions. That means that you can create "lickable" GUIs using the X Window System.
But even if you don't want to run Mac OS X (and trust me, you will), you can always run Linux on it. There are several very good quality PowerPC distros available. Furthermore, even if you go this route, it still doesn't preclude you from running MacOS X (or 7 8 or 9 for that matter) using the mac on linux software.
And on top of all of that you'll be supporting a company who actually understands that it is customers that drive the bottom line; a company that creates GUIs that even your mom can understand, GUIs that actually make sense and help you get on with what you are trying to do-- especially if you are a hard-core geek.
So please at least consider the Powerbook. It's a sleek machine, it's extremely solidly built (well, the 12" model I hear leaves something to be desired, but the rest are excellent). It comes with a good OS. You can run Linux on it. And you're not supporting a company that supports Microsoft. In fact, you are supporting a company that actually competes with Microsoft (on some small level). A company whose CEO made a little deal with Microsoft and got a lot of gain for very little (putting MS IE in as the default browser, BFD).
In short: you know you want it dude!
Re:Emperor Linux (Score:5, Interesting)
If that's not a fuck job, I don't know what is. I mean, the evidence here clearly supports that A) when you buy an EmperorLinux laptop, you are clearly still paying the Microsoft tax - they are just wiping Windows XP off of it (or you can still get it dual boot if you want it as such). And B) you are paying a shit price. The worst retail price online I found for the VX-89 was around 1700 dollars. So why not just suck it up and accept that the MS tax is unavoidable for laptops, and buy a decent laptop you like?
I understand the idea of voting with your dollars, but it doesn't get through to the shitheads at Sony corporate since they are still shipping a Vaio with Windows license to some schlocky overpriced "Linux" reseller. Or find a source of laptops that truly doesn't include the MS tax (they do exist, but I don't know of any super lightweight ones).
Don't you pay anyway? (Score:5, Interesting)
And as another poster mentioned, you will probably spend way more money buying such a machine from some no-name vendor (and still pay the Microsoft tax) compared to the cheaper price of a name-brand laptop with Windows pre-installed.
One alternative for the poster is to sell a $50 pen with a free copy of Windows included
My experience with Dell refund (Score:3, Interesting)
So, this is what I did.
1.) Don't boot the software.
2.) Don't open the software.
3.) Since you have not agreed to these licenses, the "thou shalt not resell this" does not apply to you.
4.) So, I resold the license to a guy at work for $50. (There was no real OS CD, just a recovery disk. However, he had one already, so I just sold him a license).
5.) In theory, you could sell this on ebay, but I've heard of MS using its' clout to pull those ads.
Of course, there is another reason to actually fight with the OEM - MS can no longer publish those "we run on 95% of all consumer PC's sold", when what really happens is that many people wipe the disk and install another OS. (I'd call it perhaps 25% dual boot, and maybe another 10% just do 1 OS.)
Buy Dell (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:I smell a rat (Score:5, Interesting)
You don't always get that by buying a notebook off the shelf and installing Linux yourself. For some people and/or businesses, it might be worth the markup to receive the hardware and know that it's already set up, everything works, and help is just a phone call away.
Re:I smell a rat (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm moving to PPC/Linux.
Any retailer splitting Windows from laptops? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Emperor Linux (Score:4, Interesting)
Although I agree that you are voting with your money, your assumption, ATMAvatar, isn't exactly correct. You are telling the market, "either I like Windows, or, I like the hardware and care about hardware more than software." The difference between my statement and your statment is the reason that Microsoft spends so much to insure 100% OEM compliance.
"When you can no longer buy computers without Windows, you have lost the most basic right of a consumer - the ability to choose what product you spend your money on."
I would argue differently: When you can no longer buy computers without Windows, the market for computers without Windows is too small/unprofitable for a company to take advantage of. I love it when people say, "Microshit is junk/sucks/etc." I always respond that Microsoft must be doing something right, because 90%+ of desktop computers around the world run Windows. There's a obviously a *market* for Windows software and with 90%+ of market penetration, I'd say that Windows is excellent (there's not many products and industries with marketshare like that).
In a "Democratic" society, the citizens should be making the laws. I get scared when the RIAA, BSA, MPAA has so much lobbying power, because by changing the laws, these companies can make our markets innefficient. However, I'm happy with our capitalist society as it is right now. Even though Microsoft commands a vulgar profit margin on each copy of WindowsXP that it sells (a sign of an inefficient market), I understand that software is a commodity and in the long run (10 years? 5 years?), Microsoft is royally screwed with respect to operating system software. The same holds true for office/productivity software. I kind of feel sorry for them, since the best they can come up with is "XBox".
Re:HP is not the way (Score:3, Interesting)
Anyway, $0.02. HP is really oriented towards corporate sales and not personal sales, and it is dern near impossible trying to get decent specs from them. But, the machine has worked like a charm so far, and its been through a lot.
Back to the original poster. If you want Firewire built in, you gotta buy a MAC or a SONY. If you won't pay for Windows, you will get a MAC. End of story. However, I dislike the SONY laptop keyboards, and the Macs run like crippled pigs (even if they look beautiful and have sweet user interfaces).
I am not sure what I would get now. The built-in Firewire is much more limiting than you would think, due to licensing issues. In laptop use I have come to value battery life more and more, as well as a decent keyboard. I'd probably look at Crusoe powered laptops to get good battery life, and then look for one with a good keyboard.
the dumb answer... (Score:5, Interesting)
uh, get an ibook? oh wait...
seriously, ibook + osx + fink + apple X11 == everything you want in a linux laptop, except for the ugly fonts. If you're dying for more speed get the new 12" G4 Powerbook (~$1700), which is just like the ibook only smaller in every dimension, and faster.
why exactly does your current ibook fail your requirements, anyway?
make a statement- give to GNU and EFF (Score:5, Interesting)
If you want to make a statement by spending an extra $500- $1000 just to not have Windows, fine. I suggest you can make a more effective statement by just getting the commodity laptop and giving the $500+ you save over an allegedy "Windows-free" machine to GNU, BSD, and/or EFF, depending upon the particular point you are trying to make.
If you truly want to avoid money going to MS, just get an iBook ( or Powerbook if you can swing it.) Those are great, sturdy, well-arranged machines. Actually, I'm not sure how sturdy the Powerbooks are but the iBooks are unbelievable and really are made for 12-year olds as far as being tossed in backpacks and so on.
Re:money back (Score:2, Interesting)
"There is something impertinent about allowing oneself to be killed over one's principles"
This is like that.
Re:Metamatic - your answer. (Score:2, Interesting)
AL powerbook/Educational discount (Score:2, Interesting)
what i haven't seen mentioned is that apple's education discounts are often pretty decent. my g.f. (who is a grad student) might "help" me get one, which where she is, is under $1700 with superdrive. when i spec out other portables with superdrive they usually seem to be currently ending up really close to that. plus i really like the hard metal case.....
whenever i think of getting a portable for linux i'm always bummed about the wierd buttons and scrollwheels and stuff that i know i'll never quite get working under linux.
heck, if i was going to get pc to run windows i'l still want one that was as simple, small, and cleanly designed as my ibook. the form-factor for me is something that i'm very comfortable with ergonomically.
What about the Sharp SL C700 ? (Score:3, Interesting)
It's just an idea...
Re:probably not Windows-free (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh, please. Have you ever played will Dell's on-line configurator? If they can give you that many options, installing Windows or not is a piece of cake.
Your rant makes more sense in a retail context. But even there, it would be pretty easy for any determined company to offer multiple OSes on the same hardware.
How? At the factory, they put images for all the OSes on the hard drive. When you turn it on for the first time, it asks you what OS you want to run. If you pick the standard consumer choice, it says "ok" and carries on. If you pick one of the high-priced OSes, you give your credit card number via modem or human operator. And if you pick Linux, they give you a magic number that you fill in on a web site to get a refund. And then whatever you pick, the installer blows away the other OS images and gives you the space.
So although there are many reasons a vendor might not offer Linux, the difficulty of keeping their build and stock processes straight shouldn't be one of them.
Re:Walmwart comps (Score:1, Interesting)
The two that I bought were sold as Lindows computers, so I booted one up just to see what it looked like, but I didn't even bother to check out click and run, or other major features. I put in a CD of my favorite distro, and wiped the original Lindows install.
The computers work great, and I got two of them for under $250 a piece. The value is unbelievable. I have one serving web sites with Apache, and the other is running bind for my network and as a slave for a friend's network, and mysql for all the Apache boxes on the network, and is setup to take over if any of the other Apache boxes fail.
Tigerdirect doesn't show the boxes I bought in their latest catalog. Their catalogs come out every couple of weeks. The Lindows boxes appeared in two issues. In the latest issue, the Lindows box now includes a CD-RW drive instead of CD-Rom, and has a slightly larger hard drive (although my boxes were advertised as 10 Gig, and I got about 14 Gig out of them when I repartioned them). The new Lindows box is also more expensive, about $300 if I remember correctly. They must have sold so many of the Lindows boxes at the original price because I know a business that ordered dozens of them, and someone else who ordered a few. My local linux group has also standardized on them as well.
One more tip. It appears that either the computer manufacturer or the Lindows distributor is configuring the boxes to make it difficult to install another distribution. I forget what I had to do, but I had difficulty in getting into the bios (you have to hold delete I believe, but when I tried dozens of reboots and holding delete, it would still boot into Lindows), and once in, after setting the CD-Rom to be the first boot device and installing a different linux distro CD into the drive, Lindows would still boot. I forgot what I did, but it is possible to do it. They just made it harder I guess to discourage the masses from wiping Lindows. I'd say that Lindows is counting on income from the click and run download subscription, and I'll bet they are kicking some share of the profits back to the hardware manufacturers to subsidize the boxes.
Re:buy used. (Score:2, Interesting)
(Only problem with the Thinkpad 600 now is the battery issue, as previously discussed not so long ago on
Re:Knoppix. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: Apple *did* have the first touchpad (Score:3, Interesting)
'coz;
Re:Metamatic - your answer. (Score:4, Interesting)
One year old Inspiron 8200 top of the line : 1GHz w/ 20G drive = current ebay price $900.
Brand new entry level Inspiron 2650C : 1.6GHz w/ 20G drive = current new price $750.
Re:the dumb answer... (Score:3, Interesting)
seriously, ibook + osx + fink + apple X11 == everything you want in a linux laptop, except for the ugly fonts. If you're dying for more speed get the new 12" G4 Powerbook (~$1700), which is just like the ibook only smaller in every dimension, and faster.
OSX is not a Linux replacement. Although it may be a good Windows replacement. If someone specifically asks for Linux, chances are they're not interested in what OSX has to offer.
Don't just dismiss the iBook (Score:2, Interesting)
I actually have two iBooks, one running pure OS X and one running Yellowdog. Let me tell you, Yellowdog on an iBook is a sweet thing. When it comes down to it, you want a full-featured laptop that's easy on the wallet. That R505 vaio is cute, but the screen's tiny and it uses an external CD drive. On top of that, regardless of what the specs say its battery life is only about 3-3.5 hours. The iBooks I have get an average of 4 hours per full charge (I get damned close to five if I'm careful, sometimes).
On top of that, the apple hardware is, as many other slashdotters have mentioned, pretty high quality. I bought my first iBook because a friend of mine accidentally shoved his out of a second story window. The battery shot out, but he put it back in and, aside from a few scratches on the case, it worked fine. Plus, you can find a dual-usb with firewire ibook for under a thou these days, with a CDRW if you're lucky. The emperorlinux guys are selling machines for twice that without a removable media drive.
Also, the thing about Mac Linux being closer to the hardware is true. Unlike installing Redhat on my PC, I didn't have to screw around with source tarballs to get my hardware to work. Just a thought if you like things to be easy.
Re:they're smaller (Score:2, Interesting)
While there are Wintel laptops lighter than the iBook, none has longer battery life and full features.
I think I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I've got a Fujitsu Lifebook P-2120 [fujitsupc.com], with the double size main battery, and the second bay battery. Their website has a bunch of claims about battery life, but I'm not going to quote any of them. Under my average use at work, I power up my laptop in the morning, use it throughout the day(checking email, writing code, doing sysadmin type stuff), and then I take it home, and it still has a few hours worth of juice before I put it on the charger at night.
That's probably over 10 hours of on time. I've never run the batteries down hitting it as hard as I can, but I've watched the ACPI numbers witht he hard drive going and cpu maxed, and it should easily clear 6-7 hours running like that. But I don't tend to use it like that, so it really doesn't matter.
Anywho, this laptop should meet all the needs of the guy who asked the question(usb, firewire, 802.11b, ethernet)... If he doesn't want to send any money to microsoft, that'll have to be his problem though. And if it's not small enough, fujitsu has the P1000 series that sounds alot smaller, but can't pack as much battery, or memory.
I am running Debian on this thing, and all the integrated hardware works, except for the modem. I haven't even tried getting the modem to work, since I've got no plans on ever using it. All I know is that this laptop is by far the most useful laptop I've ever had. It has a 933 Crusoe chip, and I haven't benchmarked it, but this definately feels snappier than my old P3 700 laptop, and doesn't get NEARLY as hot to the touch. It was well worth every penny to me.
Wonko