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Hardware

No Need to Upgrade that PC? 502

An anonymous reader writes "The Washington Post (free reg.) has an interesting article about a developing trend in the computer retail business: People aren't buying new PCs. Why? Well, no suprise to those who read this, but grandma and Joe Sixpack don't need a screaming new P4 to surf the net and write letters. Are they just figuring this out?"
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No Need to Upgrade that PC?

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  • by dandelion_wine ( 625330 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @01:43PM (#4743751) Journal
    As Boogaroo, above, pointed out, gamers need to pretty much constantly upgrade. Used to be, developers put a lot of time and effort into making software compact and min spec - friendly. No more. The bigger and more demanding the software, the better the computer you need to run it. Everyone wins. Oh yeah, except the consumer.

    Thankfully that's not where everyone's at. My parents need their email, a little word processing, and that's it. And if console games keep getting better (and offering network play), it may finally come to pass that gamers have their console and their word machine and never the twain shall meet.
  • Obviously.... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by da_Den_man ( 466270 ) <dcruise @ h o t c o f f e e.org> on Sunday November 24, 2002 @01:46PM (#4743776) Homepage
    The same goes for computer games. Gaming used to be the number one application for converting shiny new computers into wheezing husks. But even the latest pixel-pushing titles haven't kept up with the advances Silicon Valley has made in terms of processor speed.

    They aren't playing ANY of the latest games. Unreal 2k3 stutters on a 2GHZ with 512MB and a GeForce3 card.

    NBA 2k3 needs lower resolution to flow smoothly through some of the animations and events occurring on the "floor"

    And I just bought 2 1700 AMD XP Athlons to UPGRADE my 1Ghz systems.

    Maybe Mom & Pop don't need to upgrade, but they also don't use the computer for the tool it was designed to be.

  • by bmwm3nut ( 556681 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @01:48PM (#4743788)
    you just need more memory...linux runnning gnome or kde on top of x takes a bunch of memory. i think that's because everything isn't as integrated as in windows. windows can share a bunch data among different programs, in linux each program needs its own copy of the data (this is just my naieve view of things, i'm not a linux hacker). i have redhat 8 with gnome running just fine on my p2 400, the reason it works so nicely is because i have a half of a gig of ram in it. my p3 800 runs the same code much slower because i only have 128M ram in it. memory is the key. i wish that the x/gnome/kde programmers could get together and work on memory consumption, but i really can't say anything because i don't contribute to the code.
  • by the grace of R'hllor ( 530051 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @01:49PM (#4743797)
    I'm currently considering a downgrade.

    Except for my gaming needs, I'd like a small (physically), extensible, *low-noise* little PC, with a comfortable screen and a decent keyboard.

    It seems to me like the low-noise requirement is starting to appeal to more and more people. Hell, else the Via C3 would have been laughed at in *every* review it's gotten.

    I'm currently thinking of getting an (otherwise worthless) Epia C3 933MHz box for server duties, provided I can hang my harddrives in there and keep those silent a bit.

    Oh, where are you, Transmeta, with halfway decent performance low-noise/heat solutions?
  • Pentium 133 MHz now! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by inc01 ( 628920 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @01:50PM (#4743806)
    I seriously think every software designer/programmer/whatever should have a Pentium-133 as their primary platform.

    People with new, fast computers sometimes end up writing bloated software just because they don't realise that everyone doesn't have the same equipment they do.

    I'm not a softeare developer, I'm a GIMP artist, so I'm allowed to use a Celeron-600 powered laptop. :p
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 24, 2002 @01:53PM (#4743825)
    I wonder how long it'll be before windows/CPUs have a limited life...

    "Microsoft Windows XP: $99/yr"

    I wouldn't put it past them...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 24, 2002 @01:54PM (#4743837)
    I've been running my dual Celeron 366's running at 550 on my Abit BP6 motherboard since September of 1999. It still suits my needs just perfectly. However, my main HD is a 10K RPM U2W drive. But nonetheless, the system is still faster than the new P4 systems in many ways. I have a laptop with a P4 2.4 CPU in it (before you say there's no such thing, read up because there is and has been ever since the P4 2.4 came out). I have a P4 1.8 system at work. Both of the single CPU systems I use on a daily basis feel pretty sluggish at times compared to the duals.

    Duals are just plain awesome! I do plan on upgrading to an Athlon MP system. I will never go single CPU again!
  • by timothy ( 36799 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:00PM (#4743873) Journal
    I have a medium-sized collection of DVDs. Among the movies it contain are favorites, like Barcelona, GhostWorld, and Annie Hall, that I sometimes want to watch just for a certain funny or intriguing scene.
    I also prefer (not owning a large TV) to watch movies on a computer screen. I think would prefer this even if I *did* own a large TV, which is (drumroll) one reason that I don't. Ahem.

    So I have been compressing my movies into DiVX;) using the excellent software dvd:rip [exit1.org] and enjoying the results.

    This is a very slow process, and it's the first thing in a while which has specifically made me want to upgrade both processor (a 600MHz Athlon otherwise still feels very fast to me, and I'm in time-machine-based negotiations to lease a fraction of its power to the U.S. Space program circa 1962) and hard drive (because movies are big, even compressed).

    timothy
  • Re:actually (Score:2, Interesting)

    by daecabhir ( 166667 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:02PM (#4743882)
    heh. I'm a coder and a hardware whore (nine working machines in my home cave, including a uVAX II), and up until last November my main machine was a PPro 200 w/ 128 MB RAM running NT 4.0. Why? Because it was stable, and was fast enough to pull e-mail, run Office or Visual Studio when I needed it, or run terminal windows when I was connecting into various *nix boxen. It is good that Joe Sixpack waking up to the fact that they don't need the fastest box out there (now if my dad-in-law would just come to grips with this).

    Of course, I now run off of a Athlon Thunderbird box, and I wouldn't go back to the PPro. But everything else ('cept the uVAX) is PII, K2/K3 or 486-era technology, which runs Linux and Winders just fine. Pretty much the only reason I could see for really high-end stuff is if you are an ubergamer, hardcore graphic artist or someone working with video.
  • by ToasterTester ( 95180 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:04PM (#4743896)
    Once you hit 1Ghz you hit the point of diminishing return on CPU's. Unless a hard core gamers or running some high end graphic or simularion software you aren't going to see much difference and Joe Public is seeing it. IMO the main contribitor is software, there is no popular with the masses software that needs that many CPU cycles. Most software is sitting waiting for the user to give it something to do. Then the rest of the computer system memory, buses, cards, and devices are way slower, again a lot idle cycles for the CPU. Intel has noticed this and has said they are going to start focusing more on power usage. Also this is part of the reason for HyperThreading, trying to take advantage of all those idle CPU cycles.
  • Re:Obviously.... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by stinky wizzleteats ( 552063 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:07PM (#4743909) Homepage Journal

    Maybe Mom & Pop don't need to upgrade, but they also don't use the computer for the tool it was designed to be.

    Which brings up another point. I have played the computer toy chase game for years now, and I've gotten sick of it. I am tired of forking over the $2000 every 2 years that it takes to play the latest games. I've therefore decided that Half-Life and Starcraft are as far as I care to go, and will probably go console if I ever want more than that.

  • Re:Obviously.... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by 2nd Post! ( 213333 ) <gundbear&pacbell,net> on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:07PM (#4743910) Homepage
    That's awfully arrogant of you.

    Mom and pop are exactly using the computer as the tool it was meant to be, and are quite satisfied. It's up to Apple, Dell, Microsoft, Gateway, and IBM to add new functionality (movie making, DVD burning, etc) that would prompt mom and pop to upgrade.

    You sound more like a marketing tool, about 'needing' to upgrade.

    Let them enjoy their computers, they'll let you enjoy yours.
  • by swb ( 14022 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:07PM (#4743912)
    I'm sure that most people will disagree with me, but I think not having to upgrade your computer to get an equivilent experience as a person with a new PC is a fairly recent phenomena.

    The key thing is "equivilent experience" -- sure, you can browse the web and send email on a 386 with 16MB of RAM running Linux, Lynx and Pine, but its not the same experience that a person running a newer system with a GUI, new browser, plugins, etc. I'd argue that an absolute bottom of the barrel equivilent experience would to have to be 98SE/ME on a PII450 with 256MB of RAM. Anything below that just isn't the same as P4 running XP.

    Sure, there are some Linux trolls out there happy to deal with sluggish old P1s and P2s, but they're not getting the same experience.

    I don't really notice a difference with my "old" computer (2.5 yr old dual PIII, WinXP) and brand-new P4s with XP. But had this been 4 years ago and I was trying to run Win2K Pro on a P1 166, it would have been glaringly obvious (yes, I have done this).

    I'd attribute most of the comparability between 2-3 year old systems and new systems to the lack of overwhelming mobo throughput increases but mostly to the relative OS stability over the last three years -- the economic slowdown has definitely prompted MS to slow its OS upgrade cycle a little.

  • It's a catch-22 (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Pinball Wizard ( 161942 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:08PM (#4743921) Homepage Journal
    Because of the faltering economy, people aren't buying the latest computers and gee-whiz gadgets en masse. However, it was the high-tech toys and software that were the driving force behind the last economic boom.

    I also see analogies between the computer industry and the auto industry when it developed. At sometime back in the auto's history, probably the 40's or 50's, cars could already travel as fast as most people would ever want to drive. That didn't stop the industry from improving, and I don't think it will stop the computer industry either. We'll start concentrating on safety(security) and design factors, making software safer, easier, and more fun to drive.

    But first, economically we somehow need to get out of this funk. As long as what we make is an extra that people can do without(and it always will be that) people won't buy in economically hard times.

  • by Erore ( 8382 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:08PM (#4743923)
    And I'm typing this post on a PII366 Dell Latitude CPiA laptop. This machine, bought used off eBay, is 4 years old. So I guess I win.

    Especially when you consider, as all Mac users seems to, that a 466mhz PowerPC processor is at least as good as an Intel processor at twice the megahertz. Therefore, you are posting using a 900mhz Pentium III laptop, which was hot stuff just last year.

    Therefore, your laptop is only 1 year old in the Intel world and your boast is nothing special.

    Of course, all of this over a post that could be made from a 8088 machine.

    As for Macs being meant to be used for a longer period of time, that is a common myth. If users installed Windows 95 on their old Pentium II 233 and just kept putting security fixes and IE updates on it, they would have something equivalent to a beige G3 getting all the nice little fixes between OS 8 and 8.6. Both would have kept up just fine with the update process and would have been just as zippy four years later and just as useful. If you move up from Photoshop 4 to Photoshop 7 in that time period on either machine, then you would be reaching the limits of the machine (rather your patience with the machine).

    My company currently uses Pentium III 450-550 machines with 192MB. I am fighting tooth and nail to prevent the CIO from buying new machines. The company is in a tough financial situation and these machines simply do NOT need to be upgraded. At the same time, our Mac Admin has encouraged the same CIO to upgrade our current stock of G4 towers at 500mhz.

    This isn't necessary, he just wants to be able to go to OS X and have it be as fast as possible to make a good impression on everyone. I resisted the upgrade to XP myself in order to keep the OS in spec with the hardware. In fact, if any money is to be spent, I'd rather it be on a couple of servers I could use to run these machines (and older ones too) as thin clients for Linux.

  • by Logic Bomb ( 122875 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:11PM (#4743941)
    I sell Macs for a living. In terms of processing power, for the consumer-targeted lines of products it can reasonably be argued that you get more processing power for your buck with a Wintel machine. However, very few of my potential customers are concerned with such things. I'd say maybe 50-60% even bother asking about what sort of Pentium an 800 Mhz G4 (the CPU in a flat-panel iMac) is equivalent to. Home users care about applications, and about not having to deal with driver conflicts and the Blue Screen of Death. When a potential "switcher" comes into the store, I mention OS X's stability, then start showing the iApps. And that's usually all it takes. :-)
  • Re:what about macs? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Wyatt Earp ( 1029 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:13PM (#4743950)
    I bought a 233MHz G3 with a 4GB drive in April of 1998 - so it was already a 7 month old model when I got it.

    Upgraded the RAM, put in a 20GB drive later on, added Firewire/USB card, faster CPU, threw in a new video card twice (damned 3Dfx and Nvidia) and used it until late in August of this year.

    When I turned it off, it'd been used every day since April of 1998, it had a 466 G3, Firewire, 20 GB HD, 768 RAM, Radeon.

    It'll become a webserver soon.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:13PM (#4743951)
    what do you think .net is?

    it's a service.
  • by compugeek007 ( 464717 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:17PM (#4743978)
    I don't want to be redundant, obviously (outside of gamers) the MS OS is driving the industry for bigger faster hardware. This is sad because they really can't *won't* figure out how to really make an OS that people can USE!

    Frankly, if you take a person who knows very little about computers and plop any OS in front of them they get scared and will not really know what to do. Mr. Gate's "easier to use, faster internet access" marketing ploy to sell his OS's (which drive the hardware industry) would be meaningless if everyone really knew 2 things. One is that just browing the web will work fine with a 200 - 400 MHZ machine with 64+ MB if ram. The second is that no matter how many features, knobs and gizmo's that Gates packs into his bloated OS the same functionality is really available in older versions of the OS. Plus, a novice will still not be able to use the XP os out of the box very effectively (see below for explanation.)

    My bet is that MS is very aware of these dangers and builds some abstraction into their design to purposefully make the OS harder for new users. Note that Win XP has no desktop icons or easy HUD type bar (like KDE, GNOME, Aqua etc.) on the default install. The start menu (possibly the most familiar "PC icon" i the world) is completely different and much harder to navigate IMO. They make these OS's seem better with gadgets but the core functionality is still not in line with the common users needs. MS will then be able to launch a new OS every few years that is "easier to use." To use an analogy, would anyone be interested in a car that doesn't drive very well (hard to steer, accelerates erratically, just "cuts out" while driving.) then keep buing a new car every 2 - 3 years that has only slightly better conditions (or fixes some problems while adding more!)

  • Re:what about macs? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by bsharitt ( 580506 ) <bridgetNO@SPAMsharitt.com> on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:18PM (#4743981) Journal
    With my iMac, about all I can doo is add more RAM, and maybe a bigger hard drive. I could do more probably, but it'd be more trouble than it's worth since they aren't that upgradable. If you have a PowerMac, I think they're about as upgradable as most PCs.

  • by Com2Kid ( 142006 ) <com2kidSPAMLESS@gmail.com> on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:26PM (#4744028) Homepage Journal
    • KDE and Gnome are both a little too bloated. They try to pull users away from Windows with even more useless junk than Windows itself has.

    • Get yourself a decent Window Manager (like IceWM, fluxbox (a little more advanced), qvwm, ...), and it will be a lot faster.


    Windows has alpha blending, font anti-aliasing, and opaque window dragging (evil of vidoes!) and it runs on slower machines. . . .

    With Window Blinds I can have the Win2K interface looking like darn near anything I want, have tons of performance, and have all the eye candy, even on a "lower end" machine.
  • by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:30PM (#4744046) Homepage
    the funny thing is that even for power users you dont need the super-duper gee-wiz stuff.

    I just bought and built a non-linear video editing machine for less than $900.00

    Dual-P3 motherboard $29.00 with IDE raid on board.
    2 P-3 866 processors $50.00 each
    Geforce 2 MX400 video card $29.00
    Antec Case with 350 watt power supply $89.00
    3 40 gig hard drives - $75.00 each ATA100
    512 meg PC133 ram - $100.00
    Firewire card $19.00
    Mpeg video output card (hardware decode) $19.00
    Adobe Premiere 6.0 - $188.00
    Windows 2000 - $75.00
    keyboard+mouse $10.00

    Add the monitor of your choice and Voila.. Everything needed to make professional videos from your DV camera... if you want to capture Analog get a DV bridge for another $188.00

    this machine is as capable and as fast as a spanking new NLE machine that costs upwards of $3000.00.... I know as one of the guys at work just bought one for $3400.00 and my old boat is as fast as his... and I can do anything his XP + Premiere 6.5 machine can... hell I can do everything he can with NT4.0 and Premiere 5.1c.. it just requires more plugins and skill.

    The AVID we use professionally at work is based on NT4.0 and is a old P-III 500. and it works great! the ice-card does all the rendering faster than any computer any of you can buy or build that can run windows.

    There is no reason to buy the new systems.. espically with the large numbers of people finding that the latest games like UT2003 run just fine no their older hardware (P-III with a geforce 2! cranks the frames without a hiccup) from mom-pop to the power home user.. there hasn't been a real reason to buy anything but video cards, ram(because it's dirt cheap) or hard drives..I dont plan on owning a P-4 ever.. by the time I'm ready the P-5 will be well into production or AMD's offering will be there (I dont believe that amd is going to quit... it's rumor and hype)

    I have more computing power in this old desktop Pc than we had on this planet when we sent the first man into space... I think it's enough for now.
  • by Animats ( 122034 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:34PM (#4744072) Homepage
    • For most users, the only killer app for a fast desktop machine is games.
    • Now that A-title games cost around $20 million to make, good games have to be high-volume products.
    • The game industry is moving to consoles for the high-volume products.
    Therefore, games won't be driving the PC industry for much longer. The requirement for a PC is levelling off.

    What this may mean is the beginning of the PC appliance era. About 80% of PCs are never opened once they leave the factory. They could just as well ship as sealed boxes, with the usual "no user serviceable parts inside" marking. It's already possible to build $400 boxes that will do everything needed for 80% of home and business desktops. That's the future of the PC. Expandable boxes will be a niche market, sold by specialty retailers.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:38PM (#4744094)
    I think the article is all wrong about the reason.

    What kind of computer do the average user _really_ need? The fact that users don't need newer computers with better performance could have been said just as well ten years ago.

    I think it's a lie to state that there is some kind of magical performance point right at this point. Performance has doubled every year and has done so for quite some time. Software for computers has followed that trend.

    No, forget about that. The real reason witch is quite obvious to anyone with a background in marketing is that all the services is free. The ability to charge for things has dependencies, in closely related markets this dependency us high, in less related markets it's less but it's always there.

    Let me give you all an example. If a farmer lowers his price on beef, it will also affect carmakers possibility to charge for their cars to some degree.

    If food becomes cheaper compared to cars people will think: I pay this sum of money to be able to eat and I pay this sum to be able to drive. The driving is too expensive compared to the cost of eating.

    This is (or was before the stock-market became gambling) the reason why if steel related stocks falls in America cloth related stocks in Europe will fall a bit as well.

    Now, in closely related markets ones ability to charge will hugely affect others ability to charge. For example, if you buy a computer and all services you use is more or less free the hardware manufacturers will be unable to sell hardware to higher prices. Most is free on the net, free e-mail, free content on sites and so on. If people buys computers and ALL of the cost lies in the hardware they will think its way to expensive.

    Why is it that you as a consultant can charge a lot for consulting related to databases and enterprise OSes? Because they are expensive, that's the reason why related service is highly valued. When you can download and burn a database witch is just as good for $10 there is no way in hell people and companies will pay any significant sums of money for service&support for them.

    Most slashdot readers, I suspect, have absolutely no idea how markets work.
  • by FeatureBug ( 158235 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:52PM (#4744194)

    New software should be designed not to run on existing hardware. The electronics market badly needs a new software direction to keep alive the demand for new hardware. Most software for the mass market, even the huge latest version of MS-Office, is using similar amounts of central processing power to software of a year ago. You guys upgrade your hardware regularly. But for the average user using average software, how could you persuade them they really need to upgrade their PC/settop box/games console or whatever? I think demand cannot grow without fundamentally new types of CPU intensive applications.

    • Imagine bidirectional broadband services at affordable prices, certainly way below leased line costs, without volume limits and other technical restrictions.

    • Imagine ultra-high resolution 4096x2048 broadband video and hifi audio streaming webcams with 50ms latency costing no more than USD50/month to own and run.

    • Imagine no-mouse no-keyboard 3d-visual gesture recognition games that understand in realtime the player's movements and expressions in 3D.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 24, 2002 @02:53PM (#4744202)
    Wasn't?

    Can you imagine an industry NOT propelled by the mythical speak of a cofounder of Intel?

    Engineer Joe to Boss: Hey Boss, I think this processor is actually quite good. Howz about we simply put some faster memory in the cache locations and, well, erm, take out a few bugs? Why reinvent the wheel right now?

    Boss: Eh, it's a now win battle. Microsoft is driving the processor curve right now. In fact, they're AHEAD of the curve in terms of producing OSes which require 125% of what's anticipated to be available at the time. It forces US in turn to ramp up production (thusly causing errors, can you say floating poing bug, etc, etc, etc because of the rush to manufacture.) We'll look weak, basically, if we try to set stable, paced goals that work with technology, improving and enhancing existing chips.

    Engineer: Damn that Moore! He's causing a great deal of harm here. We're simply pushing immature technology out into the marketplace.

    --------------
    Not meant to be humorous, this was a poke at the fact that what IF we weren't able to throw bigger and badder hardware at every turn to the programming gods?

    What IF -- programmers had to grapple with poorly written code, forcing them to actually patch performance bugs, optimize routines, et cetera?

    Linux has been doing this for a decade now ... ;)
  • by Keebler71 ( 520908 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @03:15PM (#4744348) Journal
    How is it that the Mac and Linux Nazis can still get away with the ridiculous claims about the "boue screen of death" and "drive conflicts". Are they still using Windows95? This is almost 2003 you know... I didn't even get the "BSD" with Win98. I made the "switch"... except I went from RedHat 6.2/Windows98 to WindowsXP and I don't plan on going back. Had it for about 9 months and it still hasn't crashed once.
  • Re:actually (Score:3, Interesting)

    by SurfsUp ( 11523 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @03:26PM (#4744416)
    heh. I'm a coder and a hardware whore (nine working machines in my home cave, including a uVAX II), and up until last November my main machine was a PPro 200 w/ 128 MB RAM running NT 4.0.

    My wife runs a K6 233 MHz with KDE 3, OpenOffice, Mozilla, audio apps, lots more, short of fullscreen video. OpenOffice takes 30 seconds or so to start, but once going it's nice and responsive. 2D graphics are rock solid, e.g., fullscreen window moves are accelerated/smooth. While I run a considerably more powerful machine, mainly for compiling, she's perfectly happy with hers for what she does with it. This is a vintage 1996 machine or so, still in full service and likely to remain so for quite some time. I added some memory, bumped the disk space to 95 GB (noticable performance improvement there from faster IDE disks), put in a more quieter fan and added USB ports for scanning, webcam and so on. Besides doing her surfing, word processing etc, it acts as our file server and music jukebox. It's often doing heavy file transfers over the network, and she doesn't even notice. I think I might add in another 120 GB, and make it 7200 rpm for a little more speed. Even on that slow processor, a 5400 rpm disk does 16 MB/sec. With KDE it's super smooth to use and looks slick, and needless to say, it never, ever needs to be rebooted except to add hardware.

    Yes, I can go down the street and get her a K7 machine that's 15-20 times more powerful for $600, but why?
  • by buswolley ( 591500 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @04:00PM (#4744669) Journal
    People will start to upgrade their computers again within the year, as their computers get bogged down with spyware such as Kazaa's Brilliant, cometcursor, gator etc. (im not cool enough to include links)

    Most people remain ignorant of it, and their computer's performance is continually decreasing. Eventually they will upgrade their computer.

    Also most people have every single program they install create a quick start, memory-hogging icon in windows.

    Here's my two cents. Hardware companies certainly can benefit from the proliferation of spyware etc. Is their a partnership?

    oh yeah if you have spyware, get adaware from lavasoft. Again i dont feel like making a link. Its easy enough to find.

  • by defile ( 1059 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @04:05PM (#4744716) Homepage Journal

    I first used a 286 with about 1MB of RAM. This ran Wolf3D, but poorly. Wolf3D was copied to my dad's pride and joy 386 w/3MB RAM where it screamed.

    Then Doom came out. And it wouldn't run on my 386 (needed 4MB of RAM). Luckily my dad just bought a 486dx2/66 with 8MB of RAM and Doom was good. Doom2 was just as fine, but we bought a sound card to complete the experience.

    And then came out Quake. It ran at about 5fps on the 486, so I saved up some cash and transformed the 486 into a P133 powerhouse at 16MB (and it only cost about $1000 to do). Quake played nicely and the world was at peace.

    That was until Quake2 came out. Time for a k6-2/300. That was cool, but with a voodoo2 it was even cooler. I bought a companion k6-2/350 and could host h2h deathmatch in my household for the first time.

    But what's this? Quake3? This prompted me to put together a powerhouse of the likes that I had never seen before. I built it piecemeal over time, like mechanics might build a hotrod in their garage. Acquiring it piece by finest piece. Finally, my Athlon 700 was complete. It sported 256MB of RAM, a voodoo3, and an SB 512K.

    And here I am using it now, waiting for Doom3 to come out so I can no doubt upgrade again. I dare to say id Software is more important to the home computing industry than most vendors realize.

  • by 0x0d0a ( 568518 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @04:05PM (#4744717) Journal
    I *finally* decided that I'm going to upgrade my PII/266 machine (which I use far more than anyone else I know uses their machine) next time an x86 processor that doesn't suck down 60 watts comes out.

    Yet the only real reason I'm thinking about it is to get software DVD decoding and be able to use a peppier mozilla (websites increasingly have poor support for more efficient browsers like dillo).
  • by 0x0d0a ( 568518 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @04:18PM (#4744794) Journal
    He does still have one excellent point -- No UNIX environment that I know of (definitely no lightweight one) has real, Win2k-level alpha-blending support.

    Sure, we've had the pseudo-blended stuff that grabs the root window and alpha-blends it since way before Windows did. But Win2k long ago got real blending (you can see other windows behind the current one), and looking at an XP desktop runnin WinAMP (which alpha-blends into the background when it's not the foreground window), Linux has lost pole position in the flashy-sparklies department. Enlightenment used to put Linux up there, but E17 seems to never be coming out, E16 is old, and no one else wants to do eye candy. Dammit, it was awfully useful to impress potential Linux users...

    Furthermore, both GNOME and KDE are fucking bloated and slow. GTK2 has improved a bit, but it's still *far* slower than the blisteringly fast GTK1. Qt has always been slow. My solution is to simply not use either -- gkrellm + sawfish + xbindkeys + a couple of scripts makes for an awfully customizable, flexible environment. But most people don't have that option available when they're moving to Linux. To them, Linux *is* "slower" than Windows from a workstation perspective.

    * I'll never willingly give up the remote nature of X, but X is somewhat slower (and has *much* higher latency, thanks to the required context switches during a draw operation) than Windows does.
    * Linux may be a tough cookie, but X is quite killable. The other day, I wrote a program that accidently got into a loop and started opening windows like mad. It made the X environment completely unusable and prevented me from using a keyboard/mouse. Fortunately, there was a Windows box nearby and I could log into my machine and kill the offending process remotely, but for certain X tasks, from the point of view of a workstation end user, Linux is significantly more fragile than Windows.
  • by MtViewGuy ( 197597 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @04:46PM (#4744986)
    My prediction is that people will start demanding silent PCs that are power efficient, don't take up much space, and have a chasis, moniter, speakers, keyboard, and mouse that fit the fashion of the day.

    ...something quite close to Shuttle Computer's XPC series of very small computer boxes.

    I wouldn't be surprised the next major form factor for desktop computers is something akin to Shuttle's designs. Why bother with big, monster-sized system cases when you could built a very powerful system with a case that is 1/3 the volume of the average mid-tower system case?

  • by 0x0d0a ( 568518 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @05:24PM (#4745232) Journal
    Oh, yes. I almost forgot.

    The "new upgrade" feeling, the rush of excitement when putting the thing together is much better this way. Upgrading every two years means that you notice a bit more snappiness, a bit less paging. No big deal.

    But, I still remember upgrading from a Mac Plus to a Power Mac 6100/60. From a monochrome 512x384 8.5 inch or so screen with a wave-synth sound system, 800k floppies, an 68000 chip, no numeric keypad to a system with *16 bit* color, a *14 inch* monitor, a (you may want to sit down for this one) *CD-ROM drive*, a totally different chip architecture, an effectively non-multitasking OS to a cooperatively multitasking one...

    Wow. Quite an experience.
  • by _ph1ux_ ( 216706 ) on Sunday November 24, 2002 @06:35PM (#4745833)
    I agree with both. I have been running my P3/800 with 384mb rdram now for about 2.5 years. When i got this machine it was the fastest you could get.

    I was working at intel - and all my machines had engineering sample pre-releases of every processor since the introduction of the PII.

    I was obsessed with having the fastest machine within five counties.

    At the same time I would always say that machines are only going to get so fast - that there will be a point that the user is the bottleneck and that the machine will be doing things just as fast as the user can issue commands - it will be sitting there waiting for the input from the user.

    My P3 800 has been great. I no longer need to upgrade - I have a GF2 64mb card - and that is about the only thing that I would *like* to upgrade at this point.

    The funny thing is that now that you can get an absolutely awsome machine for about $700.00 I feel less and less compelled to upgrade. I used to salivate over the machines that were so expensive, now I cant find a compelling reason to do anything to my machine at all.

    The only upgrading I am doing these days is to Wife v2.0... hopefully this install will be much more stable than the last - and hopefully at a *much* lower TCO.
  • by p_trinli ( 463461 ) on Monday November 25, 2002 @12:47AM (#4748641)
    Consoles really suck when it comes to anything but kiddie games. If you want to play strategies, simulations, first-person shooters, etc., you've gotta get a PC. Besides, PCs have have the more powerful input devices anyway. I can't imagine trying to play a first-person game on a console; it must be a nightmare.
  • by King_TJ ( 85913 ) on Monday November 25, 2002 @01:58AM (#4748976) Journal
    I see your point, and for basic applications you're correct. But the real value in upgraded PCs tends to come from new, innovative software that performs tasks that weren't possible before.

    EG. Software synthesizers for computer musicians. Before the newer generations of CPUs, a PC simply didn't have the processor power to accurately simulate a real Hammond B3 organ, or a Steinway piano, or you name it. Sure, you could sample in one as a series of .WAV sounds and play them back - but it wasn't the same as mathematically calculating the whole thing and reproducing the instrument in real-time. This new ability allows you to have a nearly perfect simulation of an instrument on stage, without lugging the thing around with you or worrying about it getting out of tune. (Not to mention the cost savings, or instruments you simply can't buy at any price anymore.)

    High-end PC sales won't sell in massive numbers to the general public, perhaps -- but they'll still have customers. (Assuming, of course, that software development doesn't stagnate and resign itself to re-inventing the same old apps year after year.)
  • by shnarez ( 541132 ) on Monday November 25, 2002 @02:30AM (#4749116)
    The other day, I wrote a program that accidently got into a loop and started opening windows like mad. It made the X environment completely unusable and prevented me from using a keyboard/mouse.
    You should've read some of the guides on how to develop GUI on X. One of the tricks is to use either a second copy of X running on a different display (I mean :1, not another physical monitor), or use Xnest to run a "virtual" X display, and display things there. When your app grabs the mouse/keyboard, and doesn't return, it's easier to kill it. Been there, done that. :)
    ...but for certain X tasks, from the point of view of a workstation end user, Linux is significantly more fragile than Windows.

    Your tone seems to imply that if you'd written an infinite loop that popped up windows in Win**, you wouldn't be up the creek. I wouldn't bet the farm on that, but it'd be interesting to know how Windows would handle that.

  • by Graff ( 532189 ) on Monday November 25, 2002 @02:35AM (#4749145)
    Maybe the art school* dropout type professional programmers are tending away from building their own, but as for the "real" programmers, I'd say that's not true at all.

    Be careful just how you paint with that broad brush. I would definitely consider myself not to be a "art school dropout type", I have a bachelors in Chemistry with a minor in CompSci, as well as a masters in Computational Chemistry. I do tons of programming which involves developing computer simulations of chemical interactions on a quantum level. I have no desire to build my own system, I simply want my machine to work. That's not to say I can't build my own, I just have no desire to waste my time doing so. I neither want nor need a cheap, no-name computer. I want something solid, reliable, and backed with a hefty warranty so that it gets replaced quickly if something breaks. If it is compact and it looks good, so much the better.

    I have many colleges who are also making this kind of choice. Increasingly a lot of computational chemists and biologists that I know are using pre-built systems. Many of the straight programming and network people I work with are also using pre-built systems. In fact, from what I've seen it looks like there are more hobbyists building their own machines than the professionals. Now maybe that is different for you, but it is certain to me that there is a decreased emphasis on building your own computer than there has been in past years.
  • by dublin ( 31215 ) on Monday November 25, 2002 @03:21AM (#4749383) Homepage
    Keep in mind that this is a *desktop* I'm talking about, not even a laptop. I'm just sick and tired of all the vacuum-cleaner fans and the hot cases (and the failing hard drives produced by said hot cases) that my friends suffer.

    Laptop users hate the power usage even more.


    This is a VERY valid observation. I was at one time program manager for software for Dell portables. It's a sad testimony that laptop battery life has gone *down* over the past few years despite great improvements in battery and power management technology.

    I know one thing: I would *much* rather have a 300-500 MHz laptop with 8-12 hours of continuous use (and yes, that's actually do-able) than a 1+ GHz monster that barely makes 2 hours and will scorch your flesh (literally - see ExtremeTech's recent review of Motion Computing's Tablet PC...)

    Seriously, if we applied modern low-power technology, we really could have laptops that run all day, and the healthcare folks really could have point-of-care computers that an entire shift with no chance of battery problems.

    Sadly, there are two reasons this probably won't happen: 1) Intel and the OEMs have a huge vested interest in selling only "faster", newer gear - the fact that the market really wants longer battery life in portables means nothing. 2) Like it or not, for most people, Windows is the only OS that matters, and the the bloated obesity of W2K/XP *requires* hardware that fast. (I was stunned recently at the slowness of a 400 MHz Dell machine a friend loaned me. To put this in perspective, my primary laptop is a 233 MHz P2 with Win98SE and Office 97. Her 400 MHz machine was laden with Win2K Pro and Office2000. There is simply no comparison - it's is NOT an exaggeration to say that the older machine is *considerably* more reponsive to the user than the newer, fancier (and of course, much more expensive) one. Battery life for the two is about the same, indicating that applying the technology of the new machine to the performance profile of the old one should easily improve battery life by 2-3x.)

    It's also sad that we will not see tablet computers with long battery life, because they too are saddled with the power-sucking fat of XP. (I'm also afraid I don't expect any real OS alternative on Tablet PC hardware for several years at least - this is not an area in which open source has a glowing record.)

    Perhaps someone will begint o listen to what customers really want and we'll once again be able to buy a laptop capable of running througout a coast-to-coast flight.

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