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Hardware

Another iPod Competitor 413

rael9real writes "NOMAD has intoduced a new player. It has USB 2 and FireWire (finally), and supports WMA and MP3. It has a 20GB drive like the high-end iPod, and supposedly holds more music because it supports WMA (though why someone would want to use WMA is beyond me). It *is* cheaper than the iPod, though. Looks like a definite competitor. Maybe it'll drive iPod pricing down." Update: 10/14 21:21 GMT by T : Note that the listed specs for the player mention only "USB," not USB 2.
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Another iPod Competitor

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  • Gotta say it... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Drunken Coward ( 574991 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @03:47PM (#4447856)
    Will it support Ogg Vorbis?
  • by guacamolefoo ( 577448 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @03:48PM (#4447867) Homepage Journal
    ...part of the fun is doing other stuff with it and the community/culture of hacking it to do other stuff besides just play MP3 files. How much fun will the Nomad provide, and will it be able to generate the same sort of interest?

    And oh yeah...what about ogg? (sheesh)

    guac-foo
  • OGG! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by c0wh ( 445032 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @03:49PM (#4447882)
    I would buy this as soon as possible if it played OGG. I suppose we need to make it clear to the manufacturers that OGG support would be beneficial to sales.

    Perhaps we just need to give OGG time to become more pervasive.
  • you confuse me (Score:2, Insightful)

    by stratjakt ( 596332 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @03:50PM (#4447897) Journal
    > ... holds more music because it supports WMA (though why someone would want to use WMA is beyond me).

    Uhm, because it holds more music?

    geesh.
  • by Zech Harvey ( 604609 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @03:50PM (#4447898)
    Will it support DRM-only transfers/songs?
  • by ColGraff ( 454761 ) <maron1@LAPLACEmi ... m minus math_god> on Monday October 14, 2002 @03:50PM (#4447903) Homepage Journal
    It's worth pointing out that, if you're just ripping your own CDs, WMA isn't a *terrible* format. It's reasonable size, reasonable quality. It can't compare to a quality ten ogg vorbis file, but then again I don't believe it's meant to. For portable devices, it almost makes sense - except, of course, for the lack of linux support. And if you want to do anything involving sharing music and putting it on your player, than of course the WMA DRM features can be - but aren't always - a problem.
  • Re:OGG! (Score:1, Insightful)

    by JJAnon ( 180699 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @03:56PM (#4447977)
    OGG support will not be beneficial to sales. The typical buyer doesn't give a rat's ass whether a player plays OGG files or not. All s/he cares about is how little effort it takes to get it to work with his/her home setup. And unfortunately, WMA and MP3 require minimal effort.

  • by Richard_at_work ( 517087 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @03:56PM (#4447978)
    I recently bought a ipod (windows 20gb version) after years of using minidiscs. All i can say is they rule. 1 hour charge time to 80%, firewire connectivity, ability to jsut use it as a external harddisk, the interface rocks. And above all they look sweet as well.

    Any competitor is going to have to do a lot to beat Apples domination of the market.

    If they do bring the ipods price down, it wont be a bad thing. Yes ill probably feel resentful cause i paid more, but what the hell. The morepeople that have iPods the better.

    Oh and if you have a Windows Ipod, dont use the enclosed software, use Ephpod [ephpod.com], a fantastic bit of free software which is so much better than Apples bundled Music Match Jukebox.
  • by Kaypro ( 35263 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @03:58PM (#4447993)
    The reason iPod is such a great product is because it integrates perfectly with iTunes. Not only does the hardware interface become a pleasure to use but the software-hardware interface is seamless as well. The real question here is how well thought out is Creative PlayCenter 3. Assuming that Creative made the hardware intuitive AND made organizing/transfering your music to it just as good, then they may have something here, at least for PC users. God knows that the iPod for Windows and MusicMatch Jukebox is just embarassing to use.
  • by sweetooth ( 21075 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @03:59PM (#4448007) Homepage
    I don't see why you couldn't do the same things with the Nomad. What's differant is that Apple supported additional features out of the starting gate while Creative doesn't appear to. Also, Apple has great software support for the iPod. iTunes is a very nice piece of software, and frankly Creative Play Center is crap IMO. The interface is clunky and overcomplicated. As far as Ogg goes I don't think we'll see it on any of the Nomads right now. Then again, it's not on the iPod either.
  • Apple innovates? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by unicorn ( 8060 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @03:59PM (#4448013)
    At least with regard to the iPOD, Apple was late to the game. Archos had products on the market LONG before Apple released the iPod.

    Keep clinging to the fantasy, that everyone wants to be as innovative as Steve tho.
  • by guacamolefoo ( 577448 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @04:03PM (#4448059) Homepage Journal
    Will I be able to jockey files back and forth between my friend's computer and my own?

    To do this, why not just get a USB external drive enclosure for IDE drives or for old laptop drives(around $25-$30) and an old el-cheapo laptop hard drive from a computer show? For about $50, you can get several megs of file jockeying. No need to barf up $300 for an audio device to do this. Maybe to kill two birds with one stone, but just for sheer jockeying, it's not worth it.

    guac-foo
  • by feldsteins ( 313201 ) <scott@@@scottfeldstein...net> on Monday October 14, 2002 @04:05PM (#4448079) Homepage
    Why not Ogg Vorbis?

    I think it's because you're radically over-estimating the number of sales that such support would garner. I don't see any reson to doubt that the manufacturers do their homework and weight out whether adding such support would be a financial gain, a loss, risky, etc. A bunch of nerds on slashdot don't have access to the kind of market data that these guys have.

    Or at least one would think that they are doing their homework. Is there reason to believe that they haven't? I mean besides a bunch of slashdot nerds claiming that the first manufacturer to build in Ogg support would be rocketed to the top of the heap through the sheer volume of previously untapped sales?
  • by lunenburg ( 37393 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @04:05PM (#4448086) Homepage
    That is until Microsoft changes the file format to lock out all the competition.

    ...or implements DRM measures to lock you out!

  • by Eccles ( 932 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @04:08PM (#4448106) Journal
    So it's $100 cheaper than the same size ipod

    With a 90 day warranty, instead of one year. Perhaps they have less confidence in its shock resistance.
  • A little of both (Score:3, Insightful)

    by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @04:08PM (#4448114)
    I have a mere 5gb iPod, and yearn for the 20GB - then I would only have to change out content once a month or less. As it is right now, I swap out some songs from time to time as I get tired of them...

    I also like to record the MP3's at a fairly high quality so it's nice to have the space to store a lot of quality MP3's.

    Of course, what I'd like even more is a player that supported OGG and loading software that supported bitrate reduction so I could squeeze more songs on the thing at a bitrate that made sense for a portable player.
  • Re:OGG! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by hendridm ( 302246 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @04:14PM (#4448171) Homepage
    > OGG support will not be beneficial to sales.

    I'm not so sure about that. A large portion of the typical portable player audience is probably geeks. If there was a single popular player out there that was the only one to offer Ogg, I can bet a significant number of the millions of Slashdot readers would take notice. Maybe it would only cause a 2% increase in sales the first year, but would the extra revenue be worth the firmware changes? Apparently not, according to Nomad, but I think there is something to be said about being the only OGG product on the market with any sort of brand recognition.

    You gotta remember too, when the average customer talks to a typical blue shirt at Best Buy, the salesperson will say "Well, this one gives you an extra hour of playback at a *higher* quality than the others." Even though the customer may have no clue what OGG is, the salesperson does.

    Contrary to popular belief, that computer salespeople at Best Buy are not all nitwits. Most of them know what they are talking about but are hindered by corporate policy.
  • by Carpathius ( 215767 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @04:20PM (#4448224)
    Why? Because I can carry most of my CD collection around in the car with me.

    I have an Archos unit upgraded to a 30M drive. It stays in the car, and instead of copying my CDs to CDR (so they don't get damaged) and carrying 100 CDs around with me (still not my entire collection by far) like I used to do, I carry my Archos unit. I don't worry about what CDs I want to listen to on a long trip, I don't worry about grabbing the stuff my son likes but I wouldn't carry all the time, I just have a single, small unit.

    Battery time? Who cares -- it's plugged into the car.

    So, for me it's a matter of better selection -- I really like knowing that if I get an urge to hear a paticular CD, it's ready for me. And if I want to play a CD for friends, again, it's with me. One of the two best gadgets I ever bought. (The other was a ReplayTV unit.)

    Oh, and yes, the Archos can be used as a portable hard drive, but I don't have a use for that.

    Sean.
  • Re:Copy Apple... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Melantha_Bacchae ( 232402 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @04:22PM (#4448249)
    An AC wrote:

    > Hey now, Apple is just as happy to steal from
    > other people (ever heard of Xerox Park?) as other
    > people are happy to steal from Apple.

    Yawn. This has been answered too many times. Please search Slashdot comments for

    apple licenses "xerox park"

    and you will have your reply (in there somewhere).

    "His return is near..." Godzilla 2000 trailer
    G Countdown: 15 days (www.godzillaoncube.com)
  • by danamania ( 540950 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @04:29PM (#4448321)
    From a design point of view, the thing LOOKS more like a HD with a display tacked on, than an MP3 player with a HD inside.

    Not that there's anything wrong with that

    a grrl & her server [danamania.com]
  • by Xunker ( 6905 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @04:31PM (#4448333) Homepage Journal
    While you may understandably think that a cheaper feature-for-feature iPod competitor would cause apple to drop the price on the iPod to match, there is reason this won't happen.

    It's a common misconception that Apple in the business of selling hardware and software, much like people think that Nike sells shoes.

    But Nike does not sell shoes and Apple does not sell computers. They are first and foremost Image companies, selling themselves -- they are their product. This is not a commant on quality, speed or anything of the sort, but it is on price. When you buy and iPod, you are first anf foremost paying for the the fact that is not simply a hard drive, decoder and DAC, but that it's a work of art put together by skilled Apple designers.

    This is why Apple won't bother to match prices, because they don't need to. Though brand names may be little more than stories we tell each other, they are more than enough to justify a higher cost on an equal product. If the iPod does the same but looks better and has a better backstory, people will have little trouble justifying the extra cost.
  • So... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by NetJunkie ( 56134 ) <jason.nash@CHICAGOgmail.com minus city> on Monday October 14, 2002 @04:36PM (#4448372)
    Don't use them. I *DO* want an FM Tuner. I can't figure out why no one else adds one. I use my MP3 player at the gym a lot. When doing cardio I'd like to watch the news or the game on the TV, but to hear it I need an FM tuner. That's another device to bother with.
  • Re:OGG! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by stungod ( 137601 ) <scott AT globalspynetwork DOT com> on Monday October 14, 2002 @04:41PM (#4448408) Journal
    Damn straight! That and BeOS support too. You might as well make the whole leap to technically superior and obscure. Then you can feel totally oppressed.

    Honestly, I totally agree that .ogg support on all audio devices would be a good thing. But you also have to take into account the extra time cramming .ogg support on the embedded decoder vs. the typical consumer's wishes. It's hard to admit from the geek's standpoint, but there still isn't a real compelling reason on the vendors' parts to support .ogg. You probably won't see the shitty bundled software for Linux or even Mac for the same reason.
  • by Jobe_br ( 27348 ) <bdruth@gmailCOUGAR.com minus cat> on Monday October 14, 2002 @04:42PM (#4448414)
    What product did I miss from Archos that had the capacity of the initial iPod (5GB), the form-factor (1.8" drive), the battery time (10hrs+), the interface speed (Firewire) and the software interface (iTunes) and the very slick looking design?

    Sure, 5GB+ players existed when the iPod was released. But, the iPod is much more than that. I'm not privy to Archos' sales figures, but I imagine they'd love to have sold as many of their players as Apple has sold iPods. Just a guess ..
  • by Chicane-UK ( 455253 ) <chicane-uk@@@ntlworld...com> on Monday October 14, 2002 @04:56PM (#4448545) Homepage
    ..though why someone would want to use WMA is beyond me.

    Well.. without even needing to think about it, I can tell you one huge great reason why this player supports WMA over say OGG.. think of all the new users of Windows XP (of which there must be millions) all discovering the new features, which includes the ability to rip music from a CD and store it locally on their machine. What format does Windows Media Player encode in by default unless you buy an 'Addon' pack from people like Cyberlink? Bingo.. WMA.. and as most people use their system 'as is' without changing settings, chances are there are a fair few users with a harddrive full of WMA encoded tunes.
  • Re:So... (Score:0, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 14, 2002 @04:59PM (#4448570)

    I *DO* want an FM Tuner. I can't figure out why no one else adds one.

    Because radio sucks ass, that's why.

  • by terminal.dk ( 102718 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @04:59PM (#4448571) Homepage
    Multiply the figures, and you will see that the iPod is only 63% the size of the Zen.

    Again, just like with laptops, size matters and weight matters, or else we would all be dragging around an Osborne-1.
  • by sielwolf ( 246764 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @05:00PM (#4448578) Homepage Journal
    Not to be an ass, but Apple has a bad habit of giving up on a market they have early dominance in (lot of topics on it recently... Newton for one. I guess you could say the same about the GUI based PC).

    So my question is this the end of their lead in portable electronic music? Sure, the iPod seems to be right up there now but how long before someone makes a product that is "almost good enough" but that is a) hell of a lot cheaper b) supporting the latest whims of the market (Ogg support for example).

    Apple seems to have a bad habit of being a Dad: "Oh no, silly user! You don't need that! haha! Trust my judgement!" Then everybody goes off to more friendly shores. Any evidence they won't do it this time?
  • by WoodsDweller ( 557552 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @05:04PM (#4448606)
    • At least with regard to the iPOD, Apple was late to the game

    Yes, they failed to jump in and define a new market (e.g. the Newton). Instead, this time, they waited for a market to develop, saw what was needed (instead of trying to predict it all), and came out with a clearly superior product, albeit at a premium price. No, not as innovative as inventing the portable MP3 player, but still innovative product design.

  • by mrklin ( 608689 ) <ken,lin&gmail,com> on Monday October 14, 2002 @06:32PM (#4449289)
    Not informative at all! First, citing xiph.org as support for Ogg's superiority is as credible as citing microsoft.com showing the superiority of WMA format. Codecreview is horribly outdated - comparing MWA4 for God's sake when WMA 9 bet has just been released. Lastly, internet.com, whenever people asks, how do OGG sound compared to another codec, the developers do a little dance on how they have fixed a ton of bugs and then say "based on informal listening tests by the developers and other interested parties, we are confident that Vorbis will fare well in these tests." Not exactly unbiased or confident! It has been clearly shown that at high bitrates (256+), all codecs (MP3, WMA, etc) are virtually identical to the CD original. These test are done by the folks at Sound and Vision with real equipments are double blind testing - not some pimple-faced linux geeks listening through their awesome *cough* Logitech speakers. It is at low bit rates that codecs are often touting their performance against each other (WMA vs MP3 Pro, for example). Lastly, MS is the only one who's at least claiming that they support multiple channel audio support, mathematically lossless compression scheme (at 2-3:1) , etc. The only thing good about OGG is that it is free and open source. If anyone is a blind zealot, it would be you .
  • by thnmnt ( 62145 ) on Monday October 14, 2002 @08:26PM (#4449943)
    i'd add to this list:

    • build quality of iPod - excellent

      VS. build quality of creative products - crap

    • customer service at Apple - excellent

      Vs. customer service at creative - shite

    • UI of iPod - awesome

      Vs. UI of creative products - obtuse


    there's probably more...

  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 14, 2002 @09:31PM (#4450402)
    If the interface to this product is 5 times as good as the interface to the Nomad Jukebox 3, which is absolutely terrible, then it still won't be as nice to use as an I-pod.

    To list just a few defects.

    The software required to transfer mp3's to the unit is amazingly unstable. especially if you use it for ripping. The slightest scratch on your disk will put the software into an infinite loop that drags your computer to a halt. All nomad products have used the same software so far, so no reason to doubt that this one will.

    There is no way to have the unit randomly select whole disks while playing each track on the disk in order. This is a crucial mode for driving, in my opinion.

    The nested menus are impossible to navigate while driving, forcing you to drive unsafely or relinquish the idea of controlling your mp3 player on the road. The Ipod suffers from this to a certain extent, too.

    If similar to the jukebox 3, the unit is unlikely to allow access to the entire list of mp3's installed without building a complex playlist, which can only be done from their custom pc software. I recently uploaded about 5 gig's of mp3's that were not previously installed. I tend to drive with the unit in random mode. I got about 10 miles from my house before I realized that I forgot to add the new tracks to any of my playlists. This made it impossible to have any of the new tracks show up in the list of randomly selected tracks, since there is no way to add every track to the current playlist from the device interface, only the pc software. You'd have to manually add each disk (450+) to the current playlist. Random play can only be applied to a playlist. There is no way to tell the unit to play every track on the drive, which is a common enough mode.

    You have 4 views of your material...artists, albums, genres, and tracks. If viewing albums, you cannot see artist name, or genre of the albums. How many albums do you have called 'greatest hits?' You must guess which one you are selecting. If viewing genres or tracks, you see just a list of tracks, once again, no album or artist information. I would want to use the genre view to shorten the search for a particular artist or album, not just to play all of my 'jazz' tracks. Dumb.

    The transfer software can extract id3 info from tracks being imported, or it can make assumptions based on directory location (you specify how the different categories are represented by your directory structure). However, it cannot do both. I have a directory containing 60gigs of music, some of which were ripped with id3 info, and some without. I could choose either to import each cd separately, or force id3 tags to be rewritten on each track based on directory info. There is no way to tell it to use id3 info if available or write it based on directory if not. Stupid.

    There is no way to cause the ripping software to emulate your previously established directory structure. It can import it just fine, but if ripping, it will ONLY create a top level directory that can be named after album or artist or both. I use a genre/artist/album structure, so after ripping, I must rename the directory, then remove the tracks from the library and reimport it from its new location.

    So, the long and the short of it is that I absolutely HATE everything about my Nomad Jukebox 3, except the fact that it can accept a second battery, allowing 22 hours of play time without charging. This means I don't need to bring the power cord on a 3 day road trip, which is pretty cool. Also, the sound quality is excellent. The PC software and the interface to the hardware itself both stink. Stick with the Ipod, which, my brief use at CompUSA recently seemed to show, has a far superior interface, and I-tunes gets rave reviews for usability. Price is a drag, though.
  • by bikerminstrel ( 562327 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @12:16AM (#4451241)
    Err, Winamp is only one of the most popular multimedia players on the PC and has been for years. And Lycos has been around and well know for years too. Where have you been?
  • by Steve Cowan ( 525271 ) on Tuesday October 15, 2002 @09:17AM (#4452780) Journal
    When people on MP3.COM talk about MP3 players on /. why must they always cite the least important spects? Everybody talks about gigabytes, physical size, hackability, file formats, connectivity, and price, but fail to mention the most important specs - the stuff we all used to look at when buying expensive audio gear.

    That's right, nobody seems to care about frequency response, distortion, output power, all those other specs that actually determine how likely you are to actually enjoy listening to the damn thing. Nomad vs. iPod, fine, whatever... does anybody have a clue which one actually sounds better? Or does that matter any more?

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