Apple Releases Free, OS-Independent, FireWire SDK 179
mcwop writes "Apple announced the release of a free FireWire SDK for embedded devices. The kit is not OS-dependent. Is this a response to the release of USB 2.0 or is Apple simply trying to keep a steady stream of FireWire devices coming? What effect will this have on FireWire b? What are the effects on the Open Source community developing FireWire interfaces? Time will tell. Nonetheless this is an interesting development."
FireWire (Score:1, Funny)
Does this mean? (Score:3, Interesting)
Does this mean firewire support will finally be coming to Virtual Dub? [virtualdub.org] I think vdub is a kick ass program but now that the guy I do capture for has a Sony PCR-DC1 I gotta use premier,
which is sort of fat and bloated (sorry adobe)
Re:Does this mean? (Score:2, Informative)
So virtualdub could've implemented support for streaming video to and from a DV camera.
Re:Does this mean? (Score:2)
VirtualDub doesn't use DirectShow for video capture; it uses VfW. Rewriting it to use DirectShow for capture would be a significant undertaking. (DirectX is a cast-iron bitch to deal with. I use DirectShow with some videoconferencing software I wrote (to capture from different webcams), and it took me a good long time to get it running right). I think the only place where VirtualDub uses DirectX is for displaying video, and even then it's optional (Options | Enable DirectDraw acceleration is unchecked by default).
Yaay apple! (Score:4, Interesting)
This is looking good... Also, the platform-agnostic approach is a good one. What's next, Aqua on Intel? ;)
Re:Yaay apple! (Score:2, Insightful)
True. However, the article is talking about USB 2.0, which moves data at 480 Mb/s, vs. the current (?) firewire speed of 400.
It's too bad firewire didn't catch on more. Had Apple not been greedy with the name, I think it would have become the standard in the PC world too. People just have a hard time understanding/remembering "IEEE 1394."
Re:Yaay apple! (Score:3, Informative)
It has proven itself to be very popular in a variety of areas and now they can use "FireWire" as a name.
Just the way it goes.
Firewire works in a beautiful way. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Firewire works in a beautiful way. (Score:3, Interesting)
You can have my FireWire hard drive and webcams after you pry them from my cold, dead fingers. (They only get used with x86 boxen under Win2K and Linux...the only Apple machines I have are three Apple IIs (IIGS, IIe, and II+) and a Quadra 610. It goes without saying that FireWire devices don't work too well with those machines. :-) )
Re:Yaay apple! (Score:5, Informative)
IEEE 1394 is also called a DV connector, I.link (sony).
It's used on the playstation 2 (to connect to other playstations 2 among other things), every selfrespecting digital video camera has such a connector, there are a large number of external HD/CD-R/DVD peripherals that use the IEEE 1394 connector. You can get a IEEE 1394 card for your computer from a large number of different vendors.
Firewire is already embedded in the market and while USB 2.0 might become a competitor because of it's name, the peripherals are just now comming into the market. In the PC world however they seem to serve different markets (IEEE 1394 for video, USB 2.0 for peripherals).
I think IEEE 1394 will stay on the PC, although mainly used in video. Apple will continue to push (and improve I've seen stories talking about the next versions going to 1600 MB/s) firewire.
Re:Yaay apple! (Score:2)
Creative Labs SB 1394 [soundblaster.com]
I think that now is the time that Firewire is just starting to take off. In my experience, USB has been unreliable at best. I don't think 2.0 is a whole lot better, aside from speed. 1394 for devices that need speed and reliability, and USB for mice and printers. That's the way that it should be.
Yeah, but it still really hasn't caught on. (Score:2)
Sure, 1394 has occupied a certain market share, as you say, primarily on digital video (since the DV format is built around it) and anywhere high speed external storage is required (laptops, macs in general*), and where 1394 ports are included (e.g. Macs, most Sony PCs).
There's also a bit of a market for systems where neither USB 2 or 1394 ports are available and where a new controller card will be necessary either way (e.g. the other 95% of the PC market). Here, the longer history of 1394 means that more devices are available; but it still has to compete with USB 2 in other areas...
>>and while USB 2.0 might become a competitor because of it's name,
ROFL!!! USB 2 is a serious competitor for firewire... But it's primarily because of its backwards compatibility. I can't see the name recognition alone being a big deal.
USB 1.x devices will work fine on USB 2 ports, and most USB 2 devices will work (although at reduced speed) on USB 1.x ports. The manufacturer can replace a USB 1.x chipset with a USB 2 chipset, without affecting compatibility with your existing USB devices at all. It really doesn't cost that much more to build systems with USB 2.
On the other hand, at best, firewire has to coexist with a cheaper low data rate standard of some kind -- it's cost prohibitive to build a firewire mouse. And USB 1.x is already widespread in both the Mac and PC worlds. So, for most PCs, adding firewire support would mean integrating it in alongside continued USB 1.x functionality. More expensive.
Of course, it's important to point out: Less port types for more devices = less confusing; that's "mac-like" for the same reasons as ADB and USB 1.
So, given this, the Mac community's general support of firewire over USB 2 is kind of ironic... But just because they eat the cake doesn't mean they would know how to bake one.
There are lots of spurious comments about the inferiority of USB 2 coming from macheads. As far as I can tell, the trashing that USB 2 is getting is mostly your typical not-early-adopted-here rhetoric, and includes listing of unimportant technical merits (e.g. peer-to-peer -- great for connecting two computers or DV cameras, but needlessly driving up costs for the remaining 95% of stuff you connect to your computer), and pointing at the USB standard's association with Intel (Okay, so what?)
Now, it's valid to point out that the established base of 1394 devices in the Mac world means that Apple is tied to 1394 for the time being, and so their standard USB 1.x + 1394 combination will save money over going to USB 2.x + 1394.
[I could then argue that making users pay for more functionality on every system, even though only a handful of them will actually take advantage of it, is more "mac-like" too. But that would just be me speaking as a cynical PC user. =) ]
>>I think IEEE 1394 will stay on the PC, although mainly used in video.
Oh, of course, I think that 1394 cards will continue to be available. But I don't think 1394 will ever be standard in the PC world in the same way that USB 1.x is and USB 2 will be.
* I don't mean to insult mac users' technical knowledge, but for every machead who's willing to crack open their G4 tower to drop in another HD, there's one who either:
- doesn't know how
- is willing to drop extra $ to avoid dealing with scary computer innards
- owns an imac or a cube and doesn't have that option
- is out of drive bays (or IDE channels and PCI slots for another IDE controller) -- you can't exactly migrate your mac to a full-size tower case with ease, or buy a mobo with more pci slots, you know what I mean? =)
FireWire + USB 2 (Score:2)
Re:Yeah, but it still really hasn't caught on. (Score:2)
Really? I thought Apple wouldn't sell anything but a whole system. How do I buy a motherboard on its own? Don't they use non-standard power supply connectors?
Re:Yaay apple! (Score:2)
I think USB2 will also come to be widely used on Macs. FireWire will probably become a niche product for digital video. For storage, serial ATA may take away a lot of business from both USB2 and FireWire (assuming that external serial ATA drives will become common--I don't see why not).
Re:Yaay apple! (Score:1, Informative)
Firewire still kicks USB 2.0 for video stuff. It's a shame that Intel's 480 Mb/s marketing bullshit is working so well...
Not just the speed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not just the speed (Score:1)
Re:Not just the speed (Score:2)
Re:Not just the speed (Score:2)
There are already stereo components with USB connectors that can talk to portable audio devices. You just make the car stereo both a USB host and a USB device.
FireWire can carry POWER as well as data.
So can USB.
The difference between FireWire and USB are really subtle. The only place where I can think it would make a practical difference is where you have two computers and two disks all connected by FireWire. But Ethernet and various storage interfaces cover that case already, with better functionality and better software support.
Re: Yaay apple! (Score:5, Informative)
Firewire aka IEEE 1394 is the better technology. Why? Because you don't need a central host. This is important.
Firewire devices can interchange data point-to-point. USB always needs a host (read: PC, Mac, whatever) to keep the bus up. This is why Intel is pushing USB. Not because of technical aspects (ok, maybe to punish Apple), but because they want you to have to keep some central device (PC) to be able to exchange data between (USB) devices.
Again, on Firewire, this is not needed.
Re: Yaay apple! (Score:2)
Re: Yaay apple! (Score:2)
With Firewire/1394 you can plug your digicam into a 1394 compliant printer and you get your photos. In most cases, there isn't even something you could misconfigure (talking about cable and protocol).
Yes; if 1394 is used for A, B, C, and D and USB is used for A, B, and C, "most people" use USB for the same thing.
I don't want to talk about licensing costs; 1394 transceiver chips are very cheap to manufacture. 1394 protocol stacks for the OSes have been around for quite some while, so there's another point where things should have settled.
This is not rocket science; 1394 is just more versatile than USB while at the same time being as stable (although USB 1.1 had a much lower bandwidth and already this killed some drivers if there was heavy load on the US-Bus - and they wanted to sell this crap as "Plug and Play"?).
Have a look at the hardware and protocol specs of both USB and 1394. 1394's are just so very more sane.
Re: Yaay apple! (Score:2)
You may notice that there are almost no FireWire digicams or printers.
In any case, you could easily make the same work with USB using existing standards: most digital cameras already speak USB storage and/or PTP, and a printer can easily and cheaply talk to the camera, pretending to be a computer. But nobody apparently really wants this; most people who want that kind of printing apparently pick a printer with a card reader.
Have a look at the hardware and protocol specs of both USB and 1394. 1394's are just so very more sane.
I have no doubt that IEEE1394 is better designed. But what difference does that make to me as a user? I have USB1, USB2, and FireWire devices, and the USB devices have overall been cheaper, easier to install and use, and even a little more reliable.
Re:Yaay apple! (Score:3, Informative)
Please define "greedy." According to Apple [apple.com], the fee is exactly $0.00 for the license to use the name and logo (you can even apply on-line and save the cost of a stamp):
Re:Yaay apple! (Score:4, Insightful)
I think he was referring to Apple being greedy in the past. I believe that prior to this announcement, using the name FireWire cost the OEMs $1-2 per product.
Re:Yaay apple! (Score:1)
Re:Yaay apple! (Score:2)
To call a $1/port (now $0.25) licensing fee for a hardware technology they invented "Greedy" pales in absurdity.
You must really hate spending hundreds for an intel or AMD processor.
Sheesh!
Re:Yaay apple! (Score:2)
And 1394b will support speeds up to 3.2Gb/s.
USB has Intel going for it. 1394 has technical excellence going for it.
Re:Yaay apple! (Score:2)
Well that's just wrong. 480Mb/s is a *theoretical* speed for USB 2.0. As I understand it, you'll never see that actually on a USB 2 bus because of the poor implementation (though it should be faster than drinking thru a 12Mb/s straw.)
On the other hand, I regularly-- in fact daily-- get 400Mb/s over my firewire bus (Which is 12 feet long, by the way... quite a long run for a high speed serial protocol.)
Furthermore, that's standard firewire. The current top of the line (demonstrated regularly but not yet shipping) version of firewire can do up to 3.2GB/second. (I may be wrong and its 3.2Gb/s)
It's too bad firewire didn't catch on more. Had Apple not been greedy with the name,
Apple was "greedy" with the name? This is your standard issue silliness. You think the MAc would have caught on better if apple had let PC manufacturers call their computers Macs? Yeah, Windows Mac would be the number one OS and apple wouldn't exist--- but the Macintosh would not have won. (Actually it did, everyone runs the Mac UI now.)
Anyway, ANYONE who wants to use the FireWire brand name can use it for 1394 ports. That was another good step towards encouraging Firewire.
Firewire is dominant, and it is winning. I know of some still cameras with USB ports, but of know video cameras with USB 2 ports.
Will this make possible... (Score:4, Interesting)
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/08/0 7/1328207&mode=nested&tid=129
Also mentioned is a proposal being considered by the FCC that would allow cable companies to 'turn off' the firewire port, which DVR's will use to connect to digital televisions, so that some broadcasts can't be recorded.
Re:Will this make possible... (Score:1)
Re:Will this make possible... (Score:2)
Re:logic boards (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Will this make possible... (Score:1)
Re:Will this make possible... (Score:1)
You can purchase a RCA DTC-100 HD ATSC/DirecTV Tuner (~USD$500) and add a 169time.com HDVR and Advantage VX-1 (~USD$2,000). The HDVR adds firewire to the DTC-100 and transmits/receives standard mpeg2-ts as well as DirecTV's proprietary format. The Advantage VX-1 is a little GNU/Linux box that runs a proprietary program on Linux 1394 to convert the DirecTV stream to standard mpeg2-ts on-the-fly. Maybe someone will be able to figure out the DirectTV stream format coming off the HDVR and release a Free version? This combination lets you record to a HD D-VHS machine: ~USD$600 for a Mitsubishi or $1,200 if you want the JVC D-VHS with a MP@HL MPEG-2 decoder (the DTC-100 has a builtin decoder too).
The experimental mpeg1394 driver lets one record mpeg2-ts to and playback from a HDD. It works with D-VHS machines and the 169time.com HDVR.
Oh yeah.. (Score:3, Funny)
Come one Apple, light my wire...
Re:Oh yeah.. (Score:1)
Come one Apple, light my wire...
I've heard a rumor, that original lyrics in that song were "bite my wire". But that was too much for the record company.
Re:Oh yeah.. (Score:2)
(Mac) os independant (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:(Mac) os independant (Score:5, Informative)
The FireWire reference platform [apple.com] IS OS-independent. The SDK [apple.com] you reference is Mac-specific. SDKs for other platforms are available from other sources [1394ta.org].
Re:(Mac) os independant (Score:2)
Re:(Mac) os independant (Score:2)
Re:YOUR POST was very late and redundant! (Score:2)
You deserve the flamebait mod.
That Apple had to use TI's first generation FireWire Chips on the Blue and White machines is not surprising-- Firewire was very new then.
That none of their current machines shows they've solved the issue.
That you rant on and on about a machine that shipped three or four years ago, is just silly.
Free, not?! (Score:4, Informative)
"This Evaluation License does not grant a license to incorporate the FireWire Reference Platform, any portion of it, or any Modification into any board, module, integrated circuit, macrocell, core or other assemble or device. To obtain a license to develop or distribute assemblies incorporating the FireWire Reference Platform or Modifications, visit http://www.developer.applce.com/mkt/swl" [apple.com]"
So, it seems that this is strictly for evaluation, or did I miss something?
Re:Free, not?! (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Free, not?! (Score:5, Informative)
Let's hope this encourages more FireWire devices (Score:1, Informative)
It would be nice to see more devices (printers, external HDs) supporting FireWire.
Re:Let's hope this encourages more FireWire device (Score:4, Informative)
As far as the keyboard and mouse...well, let's not push it!
Are you serious! (Score:1)
Re:Let's hope this encourages more FireWire device (Score:2)
Well, maybe not quite but you can still do a hell of a lot with iMovie and some cheap plug-ins.
Re:Let's hope this encourages more FireWire device (Score:1)
I don't know first-hand about FireWire [macworld.com] printers [macworld.com], but the FireWire ports seem to be used more for somewhat "specialty" items that need the grunt FW gives. There are plenty of audio [motu.com] and video [formac.com] devices that utilize and depend on FireWire.
At the very least, many musicians use external FW drives to stream digitial audio to, making it very easy to take that raw data to another machine for mix-down, collaboration with other artists, &etc. I'm guessing the video production folks do the same thing.
Don't forget about the various digital media players out there. Very few of these are going to be USB in the future.
Let's hope this encourages more FireWire *ports* (Score:1)
1394 is an extension of ethernet... (Score:1)
Re:Let's hope this encourages more FireWire device (Score:1)
Re:Let's hope this encourages more FireWire device (Score:2)
Do you now see the master plan?
You have to get the ports out there, on most of the installed base-- that means shipping them a couple years.
And THEN you can release a groundbreaking product that uses them, like the iPod.
You would have hated the iPod if you relied on that iMac and didn't have firewire, right?
Re:Let's hope this encourages more FireWire device (Score:1)
Re:Let's hope this encourages more FireWire device (Score:2)
Just curious...what standard does the rational mind use to make judgements about the relative value of information? Can that standard be objectively defended using reason alone?
Re:Let's hope this encourages more FireWire device (Score:2)
Rational standards. The very act of being rational requires these judgements. You know what you know for fact, by direct sense of it. You know the rules of logic. You infer from that whether what you're hearing is bunk or not.
If its bunk, you know its not true. If it may not be bunk, you can provisionally say its true. If you know its true, then you know its true.
But you cannot say "That is blasphemy!" and use THAT as an excuse to suppress it. This is what moral relativists and other religious people (such as right wingers and liberals) do all the time-- liberals are always beating the drums of untruth and telling Big Lies-- such that merely saying the truth becomes blasphemy to anyone who has swallowed the Big Lie. An example of a big lie is "obviously greenhouse gasses are leading to global warming". A rational person recognizes that this may be true and there is some supporting evidence, but there is also evidence that brings this into question, so its not "obviously" true.
Those who want you to believe in irrationality use blasphemy as a tool-- they make it unthinkable (ie you're not allowed to think about) the ideas that they disagree with. Such as its not obvious that every human owes every other human their support. Or as Bush recently said, 4 years of our lives giving back to the "greater good". (I thought that's what taxes are.) Thats one of the biggest lies out there.
But they don't try to make a rational case for it, they just repeat it over and over until their followers end up repeating it as well. And standing up to it becomes blasphemy.
Here's another example: To a gay person, saying "yes that person has a right to decide who will live in the apartment they are renting" is blasphemy-- because they belive that "gay rights" triumphs over property rights. They don't. Just as gay people have the right of free association, people who own apartment buildings do as well. If a christian kicks me out of their apartment building because I'm a non-christian, then that is their right (Assumign they follow the lease) I don't want to do business with someone who doesn't want to do business with me. It may not be fair, but it is their right.
But many people say that anything that is "unfair" is wrong-- and that puts you into quite a moral quandry when you think about it. Because life isn't fair and you can't MAKE it fair. But to keep people from recognizing the quandry-- the questioning of it is treated as blasphemy.
Re:Let's hope this encourages more FireWire device (Score:2)
The quote that I was responding to was speaking about assigning value to information. How can anyone, on the basis of mere reason, assign value to information?
The very act of being rational requires these judgements.
Are you speaking of moral judgements - good/bad, right/wrong, or of true/false? Boolean is different from moral.
You know what you know for fact, by direct sense of it.
Do you? I would suggest to you that most of us know very little from direct observation, and most things we accept on the basis of a trusted authority
You know the rules of logic. You infer from that whether what you're hearing is bunk or not.
If its bunk, you know its not true. If it may not be bunk, you can provisionally say its true. If you know its true, then you know its true.
True or false has no bearing on right/wrong.
The
Respectfully,
Anomaly
store GB's on videocam (Score:3, Interesting)
I everytime thought this shouldn't be to difficult.
Already done (Score:3, Informative)
Way ahead of your: http://dvbackup.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]
Re:Already done (Score:2)
Well, he got one out of three... (Score:4, Insightful)
Platform Independent? FireWire is, Apple's SDK is not (last I checked).
FireWire SDK. Yes, defiantly.
Well, I guess it *is* too much to ask on
I guess it would also be too much to ask for a link to the actual press release.
Firewire growing? (Score:3, Insightful)
Ciryon
Firewire patents? (Score:2)
Re:Firewire patents? (Score:2)
--Mike
Re:Firewire patents? (Score:1)
Didn't you said "is not OS-dependent"? (Score:1)
cause I can't find other dev kits than for mac!
*or have I simply gone blind?*
Re:Didn't you said "is not OS-dependent"? (Score:2)
its not 'Free'! (Score:2, Insightful)
Its not Free as in Beer or as in Free to reuse cod entirely..
I hoping Jbos wises up an offers it as open source both the sdk and the ref platform.. but I will not hold my breath
Re:its not 'Free'! IT IS TOO FREE!!!! for firmware (Score:1)
Firewire to replace GP-IB (IEEE 488)? (Score:1)
I'm getting a bit tired of programming a brand new instrument with a 20 year old protocol. I think Firewire would be ideal for that (better than USB).
Re:Firewire to replace GP-IB (IEEE 488)? (Score:1)
How about latency, ESD, and isolation? (Score:1)
I'm working on an instrument with a high data rate (100k samples/sec) and a need for low latency. USB 2.0 high speed would be nice, with its 125 usec frame cycle.
Another issue is electrical isolation. How do you protect your box from another vendor's box that the customer has grounded to the Wrong Place?
Re:How about latency, ESD, and isolation? (Score:1)
Re:How about isolation? - optical cable.. (Score:2)
Re:How about latency, ESD, and isolation? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Firewire to replace GP-IB (IEEE 488)? (Score:3, Interesting)
So, in summary... (Score:1, Informative)
- the firewire SDK is not cross-platform
Given the story's so misleading, perhaps an editor could fix it?
new apple icon? (Score:1)
Will We now see other hardware bootable from 1394? (Score:1)
Goals (Score:1)
Why can't it be both?
Cluster computing interconnect (Score:3, Insightful)
Among other notable features Firewire has ability to do direct memory access without CPU intervention. It is a very low latency interface. This is a critical factor in tightly coupled clusters using things like MPI (message passing interface).
Apple would like to see people develop firewire as a topology for MPI. I'm not saying this is THE reason for this sdk release, but it certainly is A reason.
Re:Sensationalist headlines (Score:4, Interesting)
OS-Independent == NOT OS-dependent
Re:Sensationalist headlines (Score:1)
Re:Sensationalist headlines (Score:2, Informative)
Apple Releases Free, OS-Independent, FireWire SDK
Then reading the body: [...] The kit is not OS-dependent. [...]
... which means exactly the same.
Re:Sensationalist headlines (Score:1)
Re:Sensationalist headlines (Score:2)
Re:I used to like 1394 (Score:3, Informative)
As a note to anyone who believes him, he says, "The 1394 drivers somehow interferred with my current DVDROM so that it wouldn't even be seen from DOS or the system BIOS." DOS or the BIOS aren't going to know about what drivers you have installed in Windows; it isn't possible for a Windows driver to cause the BIOS to not see your DVD-ROM drive.
Re:I used to like 1394 (Score:2)
Re:I used to like 1394 (Score:2)
It comes with a USB cable [hp-at-home.com]. Look in the box, troll.
Re:I used to like 1394 (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:I used to like 1394 (Score:3, Funny)
Booting from iPod (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Booting from iPod (Score:1)
Re:Nothing Apple does is free (Score:2, Funny)
Don't you know that's the new Apple slogan?
"Proudly going out of business for over 20 years!"
Re:good news for Linux? (Score:3, Interesting)
And I have yet to seen any video editing program that is as refined as final cut pro is. i think it would take a while for VIMP or whatever, to get up to speed to where apple is. And I doubt it would be good for any video that is meant outside of the computer (color correction and accuracy don't seem to be big in the linux field yet).
Re:good news for Linux? (Score:1)
Re:good news for Linux? (Score:2)
Yeah, Apple sure would hate it if a couple million Linux users bought iPods!!!
Sheesh.