How Effective are Ergonomic Keyboards? 478
Jodrell writes: "This article on the BBC's website has a brief review of the current state of keyboard technology, but also questions the validity of claims that ergonomic keyboards can help prevent RSI, CTS and other "upper limb disorders." The article suggests that maybe it's working habits that cause these problems, and not the design of computer interfaces. What are Slashdot readers' experiences?"
All about positioning (Score:4, Interesting)
C//
Exactly (Score:5, Interesting)
In that respect, I don't think it's any different than all the Prozac prescriptions that are given every year. What percentage is completely unnecessary?
I don't need a "study" to tell me they work. (Score:1, Interesting)
I got one of the ORIGINAL microsoft ergonomic keyboards and the pain stopped completely. I've been using them ever after. I'm unhappy that microsoft changed the design to make their ergos smaller, because now they suck. The F-keys are half-height, the arrows are in a diamond instead of the inverted 'T', and the insert/delete/home/end/pgup/pgdn keys are arranged vertically instead of horizontally. I truly hate their new keyboard, and was very sad when my original one broke because I can't replace it.
(I'm no fan of MS software, in fact I truly hate it, but I have to admit I like the peripheral hardware that they put their name on.) But now, I think I'm going to be looking for a new brand for ergonomics, since their new ones are simply terrible. (Also, I do not want all the buttons for mail, internet, CD playing, etc on the keyboard. What a stupid idea!)
Keyboard vs. Work Habits (Score:3, Interesting)
i've been a programmer/graphics designer for about a decade now, and i have cts in both wrists (worse in the right from mouse work...), and I can tell you why right now: I don't know how to type properly.
Oh sure, i can bang away at 100 wpm, with very few typos, but my wrists are pressed flat against the table, which is just bad bad bad. Switching to an ergo keyboard helped, but not much.
The only thing that's helping me now is that i wear wrist supports on both arms that force my hands into the proper position. I've been wearing them for over a year now, and i rarely feel pain anymore. If i take them off for a few hours, then it starts to kick back in again. Something tells me i'll have to continue wearing them for a long time, at least until i train myself to type with proper wrist positioning.
Blame typing teachers (Score:5, Interesting)
I would like to see a study of people who type using the "touch typing method" v.s. people who use the "hunt and peck" method. I think you will find that people who vary how they type have a much lower chance of having repetative stress problems than people who follow the rote dictates of how "you are supposed to type".
Here's a link that rebuts your arguement (Score:2, Interesting)
Check this link out: Music RSI [music-injury.com]
Keyboards, exercises (Score:4, Interesting)
I suffered from carpal tunnel syndrome and now I'm mostly over it. I believe that my recovery is due in equal parts to rotating among three keyboards so that my wrists aren't always in the same position, good typing habits, and practicing the exercises recommended by the America Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons to prevent injury.
The AAOS page with infos on this is located at:
http://www.aaos.org/wordhtml/press/exerci.htm [aaos.org] [aaos.org]
Cheers!
ERe:Exactly (Score:5, Interesting)
And I knew a guitar player in highschool who had serious CTS problems. He was probably the best jazz guitarist I ever met. So you probably just haven't met the right people. Also, you've probably been lucky enough never to have the combination of massive volume of playing and wrong posture that leads to such things. But as someone who experienced some and then averted significant wrist problems, I think you are completely wrong to say that it doesn't exist.
Logiteck trackerballs... (Score:2, Interesting)
1. Logitech trackerballs. I have two computers on my desk and I use a different type for each - one driven by my thumb and the other the symmetrical one using the index finger. Logitech are by far the best trackerballs - microsoft ones are ok and anything else is invariably crap. using a trackerball IMHO is the most important thing preventing a problem.
2. Split keyboards. I use these and find them comfortable, but of lesser importance than trackerballs.
3. Breaks. I'm fortunate and work from home, so no-one is looking over my shoulder. I always keep something else to do in the office or nearby - painting my sons models, go and sort out the plants - at the moment there's a rc model plane being built. I stop every hour or two and spend some time doing something else completely different.
Musical Ergonomics (Score:2, Interesting)
However, as a member of both a full band and orchestra, I see RSI and CTS all the time. I see flutists wearing wrist braces prior to auditions, to keep their hands from going numb. Violinists and violists use special braces to keep from getting neck cramps, and clarinets & oboes have equipment to take pressure off their thumbs.
So, most (read:popular) instruments have methods developed to take care of this. But then you have others. Tuba and sousaphone players have a horrible time, stretching and carrying such a big instrument. Myself, I'll get shooting pains along my left arm during long practices on the bassoon, easily the least ergonomic instrument. There's no alternative way to hold it, and you *cannot* wear a wrist brace while playing it. You just can't reach the needed keys with that kind of restriction.
But music is still being composed, and there's still need for bassists, cellists, and all the low winds. If we complain about a eight-hour practice, all we get is "You're young. You'll survive." So much for the helpful employer. We just try to pace ourselves to avoid it.
Is working at a computer for eight hours worth the injuries? No.
Is the music worth the trouble? Yes.
Re:Use a real keyboard! (Score:3, Interesting)
Then about five years ago, I built a new computer and decided to pick up an MS Natural keyboard because I was starting to notice a little pain in my wrists after hours and hours of coding. So, I got the MS keyboard and immediately hated it. With it, your hands lay across the keyboard and obsure about 50 to 75% of the keys on the keyboard. Looking at the keyboard was now difficult, which is probably why many people dislike them. But, it did force me to stop using that visual crutch and start relying on muscle memory to find the keys.
Within a month or so, I had completely adapted and I could type 40 or 50 words per minute as a result. Now, I am reticent to use any other keyboard. I have MS Natural keyboards (and now MS optical mice) on almost every computer that I use. Ironically, almost all of those systems run Linux.
Re:Exactly (Score:2, Interesting)
It really depends on the person, though. Some people naturally have stronger hands than others and can handle the strain. After a time you build a callous on the edge of your finger and don't have to press quite as hard... that helps. Electric guitarists don't have a lot to worry about because the neck is so thin and the strings are so light. Just my two cents.
With regards to typing, I've found the thing to watch out for is arching. Don't rest your wrists at the base of the keyboard because then you have to arch up and over to reach the keys (unless you have big hands). I try to elevate my hands while I'm typing to keep that part of my wrists straight. Armrests on your chair help. At least use the little stand-ups under the keyboard for that 15 degree angle, it helps immensely. And take breaks periodically... stretch your arms and back. Get away from the computer -- take a quick walk or something. That also helps your eyes.
I agree: keyboards are minor factor (Score:2, Interesting)
So, I went to a specialist that got me back behind a keyboard through half a year of therapy. Later, he told me it wasn't him that cured me, but rather me changing my working attitude and generally adjusting my lifestyle and physical condition.
OK. This is the way it worked for me, but what's the morale more generally? RSIs are caused by (at least) four factors:
Workplace - Ergonomy of devices, chair, room temparature, etc.
Stress - Workload, attitude to work and leasure, etc.
Physical condition - Smoking, drinking, fast food, car driving, etc.
Individual - Some people do 14-hour days for years without a problem, while others suffer from CTS within months. (Live isn't fair!)
In my humble opinion, people who claim that "some inventor" could improve one device or another with such excelence that all other factors no longer matter simply don't know what they are talking about. My opinion: When you don't have a problem, don't bother - just be alert and don't ignore pain. When your wrists, shoulders, elbows or back DO hurt, then ACT. Go see a specialist, adjust your lifestyle, improve ergonomics.
Be pro active and you will safe yourself loads of pain, trouble and money in the long term.
Light keyboard action and muscle antagonism (Score:3, Interesting)
Muscles are single acting; they can pull but they cannot push. Joints are double acting; they are powered both ways. The secret is that muscles come in antagonistic pairs, one to flex the joint, and on the other side, one to extend it.
This is like the p-type and n-type transistors in CMOS. Turn on the n-type transistor to pull the output low. Turn on the p-type transistor to pull the output high. Both off at the same time for tri-state. Both on at the same time to short out the power supply and blow up the chip. In the human body, both muscles are off in the relaxed state. If both muscles are slightly on, this pre-stresses the tendons, taking up any slack, and effectively stiffening the joint. This is what you do for exacting fine work, e.g. embroidery or surgery. This is why such work is tiring, even when the external forces you exert are small. For ordinary work, you must coordinate your muscles so that they are non-overlapping.
When you type on a mechanical typewriter, you push hard. I've just been measuring my old Olivetti Lettera 22. The keyboard is open underneath so it is a simple matter to dangle an icecream tub underneath and fill it with water until the rachet clicks to advance the carriage. 1.12 kg. 17mm of key travel. (* 9.81 1.12 0.017) = 186mJ. If you are typing 30 four letter words a minute that is (* (/ 30 60.0) (+ 4 1) 0.186) = 0.464 W. It is not hard physical work.
1.12 kg, say 10N, feels like a lot if you are not used to it, but the significance lies elsewhere. It is way more than the force exerted by the relaxed tone in the muscles that control your finger. So to type a character you turn a flexor full on, and turn it back off again. The typewriter is geared at about 6 to 1, much like a piano, so the hammer is flying pretty fast. Its momentum slams it into the paper, making the impression and the rebound and the little coil spring in the typewriter bring your finger and the key back up. You literally never lift a finger. The springs in the machine lift your fingers for you. You can type with the extensor muscles relaxed all the time. Touch typing on a manual typewriter requires alot of coordination, but it does not require every kind of co-ordination. In particular you do not have to co-ordinate your flexors and extensors to avoid having them both on at the same time, because you never turn on your extensors at all.
A modern mouse is very different. If you just plonk your hand down on top of it you click all three buttons. You have to use you extensors to not click. When I restarted using a computer after a lengthy illness, I rapidly got pains in my arms, from holding my fingers off the mouse buttons all the time. I had to learn to be just tense enough to stop the natural curl of my fingers from clicking the buttons. What happens when I click a mouse button? What is supposed to happen is that the extensor is turned off then the flexor is turned on, then the flexor is turned off, then the extensor is turned back on, so that they don't overlap. I've not done any electro-myography, but I don't believe it is happening like that. Briefly relaxing a muscle that is kept tense most of the time is difficult and time consumming. I bet that the flexor is turned on hard to over come the extensor. How much damage does that do? It probably depends alot on the office environment. If you are generally relaxed and have only just enough tension in your extensors to avoid accidental mouse clicks, I cannot see it doing much harm. If work is fraught, and you tense up to avoid mistakes, beware. The forces exerted when your flexors and extensors are on at the same time add up internally, but cancel externally. You might think that you cannot be stressing your tendons because the switches have a light action and you are not exerting much force, but if that force is the difference between the force exerted by the flexor and the extensor, your tissues might be under a great deal of internal mechanical stress.
I suspect that much the same goes for a modern keyboard. You have to actively lift your fingers off the keys after the stroke. You don't have the option of flexor-only typing. So when work gets hectic and pressured, and your coordination is not 100%, you get flexors working harder to overcome extensors that are not being fully turned off, and lots of internal mechanical stress.
My theory is that these internal stresses are larger than with a clnky old mechanical typewriter and are the cause of RSI.
How can one find out if this theory is true? One way is to get a researcher interested enough in this theory to use electro-myography to find out if both muscles are indeed being turned on at the same time. Another way is to get a keyboard and a mouse with `heavy' long travel keys. This would make sense in a prospective study, in which you equip half a cohort of new users with the clunky mouse and key board, and follow up after five years to see who has RSI and who hasn't. It doesn't make much sense as a treatment. If you have learned to type on a light keyboard with your extensors turned on, the extra force needed to operate a heavier keyboard might be translated by habit into more activation of the extensors as well as more activation of the flexors. I cannot see a heavier keyboard in itself working as therapy, unless the sufferer can learn the flexor only typing technique it permits, and avoid falling back into flexor/extensor overlap habits when work gets hectic.