Rolling Your Own Business Desktops? 643
mike asks: "I'm mulling the logic of my company building its own desktop computers. As the IT Manager (plus sysadmin, janitor...) of a struggling-yet-thankfully-still-alive dotcom, money is really tight. We have around sixty ~400MHz desktops which are increasingly showing their age. Acceptable P4 systems from the big guys run at least $1000. By recycling the OS (Win2k), case, cdrom, floppy, and K/V/M, I figure I can assemble a good AMD system for about $600. That's a 40% savings. Is it worth it? The cost difference could very well determine whether this project proceeds or gets put on the back-burner again."
"Some negatives about rolling my own:
- Management: I won't get the special business features offered by some manufacturers. Dell's OpenImage, for example, looks awfully nice. But how much does that really buy me in a company of 60 machines? I don't use such stuff now; am I missing out on nirvana?
- Time to build: Even though we'd leverage Ghost wherever possible, handmade systems nevertheless take time to build, load, & configure.
- Supporting different platforms: Because money is so tight, I can at best afford a capital replacement rate of 25%-33% (15-20 units) per year. That means I'm committing to the support of 3 or 4 different platforms. Having just one platform is great, but how many companies, even ones that actively strive for it, truly enjoy that luxury? I inherited two platforms (Micron & Gateway); support isn't that bad. With proper planning, I don't see why we can't support four.
- Hardware quality: How much can I trust a popular Athlon chipset in a business environment? I feel silly bringing this up because I have a few Athlon systems at home, each with a different chipset, and they've been nothing but rock solid. But I know the lack of a really good chipset has been a large contributor to why AMD's aren't more prevalent in the business world. (well, that and long term bullying by Intel).
- I don't get a proven, prepackaged system that works right out of the box.
- Cost savings. Plain & simple.
- Increased horsepower per dollar spent.
- By choosing my own equipment (mobo especially), I suffer fewer OEM shortcuts.
- I have to admit that I'd enjoy the pure geek satisfaction of rolling out 'my' creation to the company.
For those that are curious, Ask Slashdot did an article on the AMD issue, here.
Solid machine (Score:3, Informative)
Can you actually recycle the OS? (Score:2, Informative)
I think time is probably the critical factor... (Score:5, Informative)
Also, factor in the labor costs (which will be substantial), count the amount of time it will take for you to assemble a machine, the cost of ESD straps and mats (you will be using ESD mats, right?), the time it will take to set up an assembly area, and the space that will take up, etc.
I used to build machines for other people (family members, etc.) Now I just tell them all to buy a Dell because the hassle on me to maintain them is WAAAAAY less. The only machine I build myself anymore is my personal box, because I spec out stuff that is too high-end for a manufacturer like Dell anyway.
If you're running a Win2k domain... (Score:2, Informative)
You won't be tied to hardware configs (unless you have funky hardware that doesn't have a Microsoft driver) and you can just plug your machines in with a floppy telling the machine to RIS itself (or certain NIC cards.. was it newer 3coms or Intels?).
There are some things that are not fun about doing this, like popping older apps in to MSI's (something I have had difficulty doing), but it pays off in the end.
It depends.. (Score:2, Informative)
Someone had the great idea to buy a load of AMD K6's and some cheap generic 'all in one' motherboards.. our team of 8 or so techies all sat and built about 30 of this machines in an afternoon or two.. but the machines are pretty stubborn and are already very very out of date - we just used old cases complete with 2GB drives which were more than enough at the time. Now the CPU's are still quick enough for office tasks, but the drives are much to small.. and its too much hassle to go around adding new drives and re-imaging.
I think buying complete systems is the best way to go about this for a number of reasons
a) Standardised hardware (makes imaging a lot easier)
b) Probably more reliable (you know the hardware combination they give you IS going to work.. sometimes you can put together a troublesome combination of parts and never get the system working right)
c) Having someone else to blame if the system gives you hassle.. (just call their tech support and get them out to fix it!)
not worth the man-hours/time involved (Score:2, Informative)
Power supply (Score:1, Informative)
$600 to high (Score:2, Informative)
Go with the names (Score:2, Informative)
Also I know the name may be tainted, but I cannot stress the quality of E-Machines. If your tech staff knows a bit about hardware, their horrible tech support is not an issue. We have about 50-60 E-Machines here, and only 2 or 3 have ever gave us a problem. These PC's are insanley priced and the components are name brand. You can a 1Ghz+ machine for under $800 with a monitor if you look around.
Remember these big guys buy in bulk that is why they offer good prices. Plus most of the time the PC is ready to go (as long as it comes with the OS you want which you can customize with Dell.)
400mhz showing their age / OEM onsite support (Score:2, Informative)
Cobbling together parts saves cash initially, but what about technical support and part replacement ? Do you call each vendor for each component when something fails ? How do you prove you bought the part and deserve support ?
Example: buy an OEM system - say, a Dell, and you call them when anything breaks that came in the box. Hard drive, keyboard, mouse, monitor, etc. Are you now going to keep track of Viewsonic, Maxtor, Microsoft (periphs), Xircom, Intel, 3com, Logitech, Samsung, Sony, etc etc etc! support contracts ??
So basically I'm curious as to two things -
Why the need for a processor upgrade across the board, which is what I'm understanding this to be ? You're keeping everything else from the original systems, right ?
Do you have a system to manage proving you deserve support to a dozen vendors ? Will you no longer have support from the original OEMs who built the systems you're canabalizing ?
__
Just stay away from the "name brands." (Score:2, Informative)
My experience has been that when you're too busy to handle your own hardware/software support, you should find a competent local firm who can build machines to your specifications, support them, and provide warranties.
I have found that name-brand systems (i.e. Dell, Gateway, Compaq, etc.) are overpriced, underfeatured, and have a very limited hardware upgrade path.
When you find a local computer reseller who will provide you with the support you need you can get the AMD systems you want with the componentry you want, without the hassle of taking the time to order, build, and load them.
This arrangment is especially valuable if any of your hardware is DOA. The vendor will take care of any returns. You only get working hardware.
Finding a competent local vendor is tough. Everyone thinks they know their hardware and their hardware is the best. It pays to go with someone who has been in business at least a couple years. Talk to their customers and get feedback. Check out ResellerRatings.com [resellerratings.com] for comments on some of the larger resellers.
Good luck.
Re:Microsoft allow it? (Score:5, Informative)
If it was a full retail version of Win2K, it can be transferred. But nobody has full retail -- everyone has the OEM version. That's part of the lock-in of preloads.
OEM versions can't be moved from one machine to another. Also, Microsoft has strict rules about what constitutes an "upgrade". I don't have them here, but "upgrading everything around the W2K license" is not an upgrade, it requires the purchase of a new license.
Don't take my word for it, though, or anyone on slashdot. Check out http://www.microsoft.com/licensing, and see how Microsoft is making it so much easier for the consumer, by not having so many confusing programs designed to save the customer money.
By gouging the crap out of everyone, you now don't even have to go to the bother of trying to save money. You can just assume you are going to get poked, and sure enough, you are! Don't even *need* to read those agreements anymore.
Boy, that *is* easier. Thanks Bill!
We did that in the past... (Score:3, Informative)
We bought the best components, big cases and were able to ensure everything worked as desired. But reliability is a BIG issue.
We recently stopped this practice and decided to buy from a small but reliable company (armari.co.uk). I bought a test machine (dual amd 1800+, 1GBram, etc.) and the build quality is amazing...we are now purchasing these machines (plus dual monitor) for all the team.
It's a big relief knowing that I can just call someone and have it fixed asap. Armari even provided named Win2k login, partioned the way I like, and system rescue CD's that in 10 minutes put the os, drivers and configs all back to factory ship.
No looking back to the dim and dark days of spending hours trying to get a SCSI card to boot a CD
Re:Microsoft allow it? (Score:2, Informative)
I have a Windows 2000 OEM CD here at work that will only boot on the Compaq Deskpro EP. Back in 1996 when I bought a PC for home, the OEM CD would only boot in a Sony PC.
OEM's do this all the time.
Roll Your Own PCs in Bulk (Score:5, Informative)
Time to build: Even though we'd leverage Ghost wherever possible, handmade systems nevertheless take time to build, load, & configure.
Yes. But make damned sure that you're building them as an assembly line. The principle is that building a second one will only take 50% more effort than building the first; the third will take only 33% more effort than the other two, etc. Whatever old Henry Ford's theorem was. It works.
Set aside a room where no one else will bother you. *GOOD STATIC CONTROL* is mandatory. Do all stages of assembly at once, that way you're not wasting time fumbling back and forth for screwdrivers. Get going at a good clip with quality cases, and you should be able to assemble 100 systems/day - but that assumes you have *everything* where you need it when you need it, there's good padded shelving, and you've got a grunt taking care of taking cases out of boxes for you. It also excludes software load.
Just make sure you get a warranty on all the parts since you will not have one on the entire machineAbsolutely. But, assuming a competent builder (ie. not blowing processors with bad jumper settings or blowing boards by not having them seated right), the parts themselves should be pretty reliable. If you're buying good stuff, the biggest source of problems will probably be static handling.
Keep in mind that a modern memory or processor chip has literally millions of CMOS transistors. CMOS transistors have an incredibly thin layer of glass between the gate input and the source-drain circuit. A voltage applied to the gate influences the flow of current through the source-drain circuit. Trick is, the layer of glass involved is so thin that you can punch a hole in it with 30V. Next trick is that static electricity generates kilovolts (thousands of volts) with sufficient current to blow holes in the gate layer, but be imperceptible to you.
All it takes is one transistor out of the millions inside a modern chip to be defective and the computer will crash apparently at random... you know, when Windows VMM writes a 0 to a memory address and gets it back as a 1 later on... BSoD. Kernel Panic. Choose your flavor.
Wrist straps, static baggies, conductive floors, grounded workstations are *crucial*. Dell, Compaq, Asus and Abit spend millions of $$ on these things, and for similar reliability, you should demand the same standards every step of the way for your home-rolled machines. Make sure your computer store hasn't "helped" you by opening the static baggies. Write that one into the contract with the computer store. And make sure that the hard disk drives are still in their packing "egg-crate" things. You really don't want a box with a stack of hard disk drives. (Western Digital had a great video on hard drive handling floating around the 'Net, you should view it if you're building en masse.)
Re:Walmart PCs without Windows (Score:3, Informative)
Don't do it (Score:3, Informative)
Dell is great. They'll come out and fix your machines for you. After the build our own fiasco, we went with Dell. The only problem we had of all the Dell machines was a bad IDE cable in one machine. Otherwise, things were great.
I bet you'll average more than $400 in labor time, for each machine, in the long run. Also, I think your math is bad. I bet you can get decent Dell P4s for $600 or so. A Dell, 128MB P4@1.7GhZ(without monitor), $500 after rebate.
I Wouldn't Roll My Own (Score:1, Informative)
I will never build my own system again. I have had too many problems with drivers, things working together properly, and cooling the CPU.
My company used to pay a shop to build computers for us, we buy about 350 a year, and the problem we had was it was hard to keep a consistent set of hardware. If two years go by and you have to replace a video card, can you find the exact one you put in the originals so you can use the same ghost image on all your machines?
Personally, I would buy 60 machines from Dell at the best price they will give me. You should be able to negotiate a 5% discount at least. Since their profit margin is probably only 10% to start with, a 5% discount will be good.
If you get Dell certified, they will even pay you $65 an incident or something like that to fix your companies PC's when they break.
Re:Microsoft allow it? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Microsoft allow it? (Score:3, Informative)
A Celeron 1GHz goes for $55 on Pricewatch. Look at $10 or so for no frills slotket. A 256MB stick of PC133 will set you back about $30. That's a little over $100 for a nice upgrade.
And as Tackhead said, it's a dead simple swap software wise. No hours of "New Device Found" hell that normally accompanies motherboard upgrades under Windows. You also get to keep your probably 440BX based motherboard with it's well tested and mature drivers.
Re:If you're running a Win2k domain... (Score:3, Informative)
Bah. The first RIS job I did will be my last one. At least until I have to do > 100 PC's. I never did figure out all the problems we had with that install (project got pulled in the middle of it due to layoffs), but I think our Cisco switches did not like the DHCP requests from trying to boot off the network. About 35% of the machines had to be rebooted 5+ times in order to get a lease. And, even after it loaded (which took a god awful long time), we still had to configure each PC (for Outlook, custom apps, etc.)!
For the 15-20 PC's he's talking about, I think RIS is a little too much. Just make 2 images (assuming no SCSI drives), one for ACPI compliant PC's and one for APM PC's (assuming you have any), install your common programs (Office and the like) and sysprep them. Then just Ghost from a network server. That's the cheap, slow way to do it. Oh, and it'll also clog the network so you may want to do it off hours. Just make sure your server can support multiple streams (or use a few servers), or it'll REALLY slow you down. I'd suggest using Bart's network boot disk to boot from (hopefully you have supported NICs, most major ones are) and then you can assign an IP if you have trouble with DHCP.
Or, if your cases are easy to work with (most recent OEMs, barring HP and Compaq, are) Ghost from a few internal hdds (much, much faster). Just give each of your tech 3 hdd's and 3 preconfigured Ghost floppies to boot from (start Ghost in the autoexec.bat file). By the time they've started the 3rd install, the 1st will be done. Reboot it and it'll detect the devices.
All you've got left is to install the custom apps, and configure email. If you're going to go thru the trouble of making MSI's for your apps, you may as well start using Active Directory's software install services as well. Then your users can just install their apps for themselves.
A Few Recommendations (Score:2, Informative)
Motherboard:
Asus is reliable and fast but also expensive. Look at Gigabyte, MSI, or FIC. (I especially like the Gigabyte GA-7ZMMH as an Athlon platform.)
CPU:
While I have nothing against Intel, AMD consistently kills them in the price/performance ratio. In the past 2 years I have yet to build an Intel based machine for a customer. I just lay out the options and they invariably pick AMD, but that's just my experience. The Duron is a good chip but I don't sell many of those either, people are usually willing to pay a little more for an Athlon of equivalent speed.
Memory:
Buy name brand memory, not generic stuff. I like Micron/Crucial personally, never had a stick go bad. Corsair and Mushkin make good stuff as well, although I had to RMA the only Corsair stick I've ever bought after about 6 months. Corsair customer service was excellent about it though.
Video Card:
Despite their bad reputation some places, I've had good luck with ATI cards when I need a video card. The Radeon VE provides some nice features at a good price point. But in a business environment, get a motherboard with integrated video if you don't need much. If you buy an NVidia card, do some research on the card's manufacturer and look for a reputation of stability.
Hard Drives:
In machines I build, I use almost exclusively Seagate. Good performance, good price, and I've had zero quality problems with them. I feel about the same about Maxtor. I used a couple Quantum drives in my early systems with no difficulties. I don't have any recent experience with Western Digital so I can't really comment on them. IBM drives are too expensive unless you really need the slight performance edge some models offer.
Optical Drives:
I've had stupendous success with Afreey CD and DVD drives. Only had one fail and that was after some kicked the extended disc tray (we were able to open it up and fix it actually). Afreey drives are also very inexpensive.
CD burner wise I stick with Sony. We tried several different brands (Plextor, Acer, etc..) and found that Sony offered excellent quality for a very reasonable price. Plextor is good quality but you pay extra for the Plextor name.
Enclosures/Power Supply:
Antec cases are top quality and have excellent Antec power supplies. They are lots of less expensive cases you can get (and lots of more expensive ones), but Antec had never let me down. If you do get a cheaper case, get it without a power supply and buy a good Sparkle/Antec power supply for it.
(I don't work for any of the abovementioned companies and I don't profess to be an expert on this topic. Just sharing the experience I've had as a system builder who has dealt with a little more volume and long term support than your average hobbyist. We are by no means a high volume shop so I'm sure there are lots of people out there with more experience than me, hopefully they will respond if they feel I'm wrong about any of the parts I've recommended.)
-Sokie
Re:Cost savings? (Score:2, Informative)
Cost wise, you will save money, that's for sure. All hardware comes with manufacturer's suport, so buying support from big names is just rediculous - you are paying for what they have for free and associated admin costs are nothing. Have a look around for small, reliable shop that would go nuts if they can close a deal for components for 60 desktops. Hell, they would be happy to build the machines themselves and will always be more responsive to support calls than any big shot company.
However, I prefer to build machines myself - I love computers and it's fun and it always gives a pleasure when blinking cursor appears for the first time and the feeling that you contributed something more than what's stated in your 'Position Description' is great and...
Even when I knew it would mean more than 40 hours a week and no material rewards for me, I did it. And no doubt - I will do it again, every time.
There's so much more in every job than just $$$$, trust me
Re:Microsoft allow it? (Score:4, Informative)
This really pisses me off. This should of been part of the settlement from the DOJ. M$ Screwed Consumers.
The OEMS had to accept the M$ price discount plan, and only sell OEM versions to stay in business. M$ should of never been allowed to tie an OS to hardware, too late, damage done.
We had a site license for m$ at work. We bought 40 pc's and could not get them without windows. We just paid for an OS which we would never use, and couldnt sell. What about all the schools across America that got double billed for an OS? Thats alot of tax money M$ should pay back. I wont even go into the tax scam [billparish.com] m$ has, they do not pay federal income tax.
If I was going to roll out desktops.
1. Terminal Services/Citrix/etc... Will NEVER tie M$ into hardware, repeat never, rinse repeat, never.
2. Linux workstations.
3. Fast network, with gigabit upstream to the TS servers.
4. Ghost images on CD.
BTW, 400mhz boxes make good linux workstations.
-
Where does an 800 pound gorilla sleep, anywhere he wants.
the 400 mHz machines still have value (Score:2, Informative)
If you could donate or sell each 400 mHz box for a $200 tax credit, upgrading would not be worthwhile!
Re:anti-static isn't over-hyped. (Score:5, Informative)
But seriously I have worked on many many systems over the years and I have never had a problem which could be credibly linked to hardware failure brought on by ESD. I think that lots of less-experienced techs and help desk people blame any problem that they can't figure out on ESD. Got a BSOD that you can't explain? Here's a convenient line that no one can really disprove and makes you look smart. "It must have been mishandled by some other ignorant tech years ago and is just now showing symptoms." Right. How could even tell the difference between an ESD problem and a problem caused by irregular AC line voltages or manufacturing defects?
What the hell is a "latent failure"? As was stated above, ESD is measured in kV while CMOS tolerances are more like 30V. Either a transistor is blown or it isn't. I agree that ESD can damage transistors, and I also know that a computer may very well power up after suffering damage from this. However I think the notion that a system would power up and work normally for two years before going south is ludicrous. You seem to think that the static can somehow "weaken" the hardware without fully blowing it out.
My personal solution to the ESD problem is a compromise between the incredibly annoying wrist strap and "going commando" and risking relatively expensive hardware. I leave the power supply plugged into a grounded outlet while working on the machine. I know somebody's gonna flame me for this, but think about it. When the machine is plugged in the entire chassis is a path to ground which can bleed off excess voltage in the case of a static discharge. If you simply touch the chassis before you start working you will discharge any static electricity which is being carried by your body and you're good to go. Unless you are working on your computer while standing on a shag carpet in your socks while rubbing a balloon on your head then this is probably all you need to be safe. You could then unplug the AC line if you wanted, although I don't see any harm in leaving it plugged in during your entire operation. Outside of the power supply the voltages can be no more than 12V and low current so electric shock is really not an issue.
On a side note I think a much more common issue is the failure of the power supply itself, rather than motherboards and chips. In most machines I build the PS will burn out after a couple of years unless I spend a few extra dollars on a step-up model case like an Enlight.
Alright, flame away.
alex
Absolutely Go For It (Score:4, Informative)
I'm currently rolling custom built machines for our 200 systems network. Oh, and I'm the only tech here. I do the servers, network, help desk planning, everything.
My place is a non-profit where a very small, chaotic budget. I'm never sure exactly when I'll have money to spend or how much. For strange reasons, when we go to spend money we have to go through a maze to buy complete equipment, but components are no problem. We couldn't buy a new company car, but we could buy all the parts to put a car together ourselves. Same goes for computers.
The savings we've seen building ourselves are huge. Adding the costs of the pieces and my time spent planning, building, and supporting these systems it is still cheaper than OEM systems and a support contract. A+ certified techs are a dime a dozen, so support of these wintel systems isn't really a factor if I were to leave. (They'd have to get a half dozen to do what I'm doing by myself in 40 hours a week, plus an MCSE and a CCNA, so I'm not worried about job security).
Here are some tips:
1) Plan out your configuration and use it for the next year. The most important component is the motherboard. It should be able to accept more RAM and a faster CPU than you are going to use initially. Spend lots of time developing a stable, user-friendly software config (OS and apps). As you need to replace systems throughout the year, use this config. After six months update the config with a faster CPU, more RAM, and maybe a larger HD. Update your software config with patches, fixes, stuff like that now also. At the year mark you can plan your new config.
2) Integrated components are your friend. I like the nVidia nForce boards because they have the (good) sound, video, and network integrated. Also, if one manufacturer stops making your board, you should be able to switch to another manufacturer but still use the same drivers. Very important for ghosting!
3) You really don't need the management software for 60 computers. That stuff is usually designed (and priced) for enterprises with several hundred if not thousands of systems. You should be able to keep most of that stuff in your head and in a small text-file database. Learn a little Python/tk and you can even build your own front end to the text-file. Cool!
4) Develop a relationship with a couple local component vendors, and a couple Internet vendors and have them bid for any purchase more than a couple grand. You'll definetely save money this way, especially if they know they are bidding and not just giving a price quote. I've saved thousands of dollars on a single purchase this way. Also, after a while the local guys will probably be able to send a couple guys your way to help out every once-in-a-while when you get swamped or stuck as a thank you for your business. Very Cool!
Following these tips, you only have four platforms to work with, you've saved money, you know exactly what you are working with, and you get a sense of pride from creating something from your own two hands.
I really can't recommend this approach highly enough.
Re:Roll Your Own PCs in Bulk (Score:3, Informative)
Buy good components and generic product lines, that way the variance in the hardware over time is minimised. eg we always buy TNT2 video cards and intel eepro NICS. We've got a few different specs, depending on the intended purpose of the machine, and its pretty easy when comes to ordering more - "give us 5 more machines as per quote XXX". Of course we upgrade the CPU and RAM as $$ allow. One of the problems the main brands caused us was varying the revision of the embedded motherboard components between orders. Even though the model of the machine was the same, the drivers required altered, and finding them can be a nightmare sometimes. If you go for discrete components you always know what you're getting.
We've even had one of the main suppliers assure us that their embedded NIC was compatible with linux - it was, but only drivers for the 2.0.13 kernel were availible - fat lot of good that was 8)
As for faults, I prefer to diagnose the problem myself, and our supplier sends forward replacements - the machine is down for a minimum of time and the faulty item is returned to the supplier in their packaging.
A proper static free workstation is also important, even if you are not assembling the machines yourself. When it comes to pulling faulty bits out and replacing them you know you are not going to make things worse. In fact, a reputable supplier would probably insist you had such a facility in order to be replacing warranty components.
Go with DELL (Score:1, Informative)
Besides, you ought to be able to sell the old machines for $100 each...
I've supported Roll-your-own for a large install (Score:2, Informative)
For example, the vendor ran out of a certain video card and so provided us with the model one-up as an RMA when one of the video cards died. This means the user gets an improved card, however what it really means is a driver headache (the ghost image for all those PCs has to be upgraded to support the new vid card as well as the old one) and a possibly non-working configuration since the new card hasn't been tested.
Then, you run into the asset management of keeping track of the different phases of the project. This was a large project, so there were lots of different configurations to keep track of. If you are planning on keeping the number of distinct phases small, you may be able to make it work. However, keep in mind that when a 2 year old computer fails, warranty or no warranty you may have trouble replacing a component with exactly the same one. Even a hard drive can cause a headache, if the replacement is larger than some BIOS or OS limitation and your ghost image fails on it.
The keys to the success of this project are as follows:
1. Always have spare parts on hand, for each phase. I'd say you'd ideally have at least one spare box, maybe two depending on the size of the phase, and maybe a few hard drives and cdroms. As you find certain parts more problematic than others, get more spares in future phases.
2. Asset management (hardware, software, firmware, drivers, etc) is crucial. You must know what's in each box; sometimes even a BIOS "upgrade" will screw you up.
3. Using something like Ghost to transfer operating systems is great until users start storing data on local disks. You will need to make sure that they at least use a separate partition, or even better a network storage.
If you keep the number of phases small, it should ideally be no problem. In theory there are only a few different PCs to fix, so once you can fix one, you can fix them all. But once you let non-standard software and hardware creep into the different boxes the theory breaks down and support becomes a nightmare.
Mark