Palm OS 5.0 Preview 265
Propane sent in an
excerpt from Palm's Palm OS 5.0 Preview
"Palm OS 5, the latest version of the world's leading mobile platform, redefines market expectations and creates new opportunities for licensees, for developers, and for end users. In addition to supporting ARM®-compliant processors from industry leaders Intel, Motorola, and Texas Instruments, Palm OS 5 also enhances multimedia capabilities, incorporates a suite of robust security options, and expands support for wireless connections. In providing these new capabilities, Palm OS 5 builds a foundation for the future of mobile computing while also maintaining compatibility with existing software. "
Thin on detail (Score:3, Redundant)
Most importantly, will Palm still be freely allowing development by releasing the SDK for free? (the move to ARM might have given them an opportunity to switch from gcc, thereby making this a question)
Re:Thin on detail (Score:4, Redundant)
Doubling the resolution, or tripling it, can provide much greater flexibility for apps that really do demand high resolutions to run nicely. This is a substantial step forward towards having real multimedia (decent quality movies/etc) on a handheld device.
On the issue of security:
Seems reasonable to me. Tie this security into strong biometric authentication (voice, handwriting, fingerprints) and you have a much more secure handheld than ever before.
Re:Thin on detail (Score:2, Insightful)
Biometric identification is stupid. If someone gets a copy of your password you can change that, but if someone gets a copy of your fingerprints it's not so easy to change them.
I mean they get a copy of the data representing your fingerprints and insert that in to the system rather than actually copying your fingerprints (although that might be possible too!)
Re:Thin on detail (Score:3, Funny)
I mean they get a copy of the data representing your fingerprints and insert that in to the system rather than actually copying your fingerprints (although that might be possible too!)
Agreed. But why must it be one or the other? Why not make both required for authentication?
Needing a stolen password and stolen fingerprint data seems a lot harder to accomplish than just stealing a password or just stealing fingerprint ID info.
Re:Thin on detail (Score:3, Funny)
Or, "they" can just do it this easy way, hunt you down and cut your finger off...
Re:Thin on detail (Score:2)
Cutting off someone's finger is a pretty drastic action. If you are going to that much trouble, you cannot assume that a password would be too hard to obtain. At that point you can't assume they aren't just going to wire the access device (door/safe/etc...) with a bunch of C4 and bypass your security entirely.
Re:Thin on detail (Score:2)
Good old-fashioned mugging where all you lose is your wallet will evolve into kidnapping when they drag you kicking and screaming to the nearest ATM.
Retinal scanning is the only way (Score:2)
If someone pokes out your eye, the retina will change.
If someone kills you, the retina will change.
If someone drugs you, the retina may change. Does anybody know anything about drugging the victim?
Anyhow, retinal scanning appears to be the most promising, possibly aside from / in conjuction with voice analysis.
Fingerprint technology should have been DOA for interactive, non-supervised terminals.
Re:Thin on detail (Score:2)
but the patent... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:but the patent... (Score:5, Insightful)
Incorrect (Score:2, Informative)
I'm sorry, but your post just isn't right. You can see NPD Techworld's numbers here (news.com.com/2100-1040-827272.html [com.com]), which show that U.S. handheld sales reached 4.9 million units in 2001, which amounts to a growth of 36% over the previous year. That kind of growth isn't indicative of the market having been oversaturated.
Re:Incorrect (Score:2, Insightful)
palms sales are down because they are not getting repeat business, but also because the new customers entering the market are not attracted to palm because these new customers are multimedia oriented.......that is why plam needed to by BeOS, to get plamOS 5 out with multimedia capabilities to attract this diffrent segment of customers who are entering the market.
Re:Incorrect (Score:3, Insightful)
The other thing to consider is that you are quoting numbers about unit shipments, while I'm sure that the '44%' number being quoted for Palm is in terms of revenue. The average selling price of a Palm has come way down over the last year due to price competition and Palm's introduction of new very low-end units. I'm seeing m100's selling for C$150 - that would make them under US$100...that's dramatically lower than their entry level PDA's at the start of 2001 (more than 44% so).
Finally, good old anecdote : I see lots of people with Palms & Visors, but they are of all different models....the people I know with Palms don't talk about upgrading them or getting new ones. I have not actually seen an iPaq or Jornada in the 'wild'....not sitting in the airport, not at my doctor's or dentist's office, nada. If they are taking over the world they must be doing it somewhere else.
Precisely (Score:3, Informative)
Re:but the patent... (Score:2)
Let me get this straight...you think that they are losing 44% by virtue of saturating the market, in other words selling too many ?? I have read all the news articles and this is not so, it is due to declining market share that it is losing to all the great new color PDAs. You are either a cunning troll or a misinformed user.
Basically, he was pointing out that there are many palm users out there who don't upgrade. They keep using what works. My Palm V does what I need, no need to spend another $300. And when there no longer is a huge influx of new customers, sales go down.
Re:but the patent... (Score:2)
Re:but the patent... (Score:2)
Re:but the patent... (Score:2)
No Screenshots? (Score:2, Interesting)
No screenshots? (Score:1)
Windows beat at their own game... (Score:2)
Seems that if DOS can move to a second generation, even having a superior desktop/hardware alternative (Macintosh) , why couldn't Palm do the same thing , keeping the upper hand against PocketPC?
Their seems to be much more software and legacy on the PalmOS.
Re:Windows beat at their own game... (Score:2)
and it looks like V5.0 of palm OS is another yawn generator... Until the product line creates more productivity or offer's features that attract, they will NEVER get current customers to drop what they have and upgrade.
Re:Windows beat at their own game... (Score:3, Insightful)
If more customers are willing to spend more money for PDAs that play mpeg video, display in 32-bit color with accelerated 3-D graphics and can remove unsightly body hair, then that's what PDA makers are going to produce. And those who don't will go out of business.
That's just the way life is.
Re:Windows beat at their own game... (Score:2)
"Oh look, I've got a 1 minute clip of this movie trailer...everyone huddle round now...wait wait, we have to do this one person at a time, can't see the screen from a wide angle...ah shit my batteries are going dead again..."
I mean really, how usefull is that?
Re:Windows beat at their own game... (Score:2, Insightful)
As a straight PDA, the Palm wins easily. As a business laptop substitute (not replacement) with PDA functionality included, the PocketPC wins hands down. And don't tell me just whip out a Vaio subnotebook for PDA tasks. Try that standing in an airport line looking for a contact name for a coworker who's on the phone with you.
people just need to find the right tools to use and for some it's a Palm and others, it's a PocketPC.
Re:Windows beat at their own game... (Score:2)
Re:Windows beat at their own game... (Score:2)
Re:Windows beat at their own game... (Score:2)
My company wants these features. (Score:2)
The company I work for wants these features. They're using PocketPC's as an interface for a bigger device, and to be able to send down MPEG data to play back would be incredibly useful.
So yes, for us a PDA does need to have all the features you just described. It also needs to have wireless connectivity and long battery life. Our application is unusual and wouldn't be applied to consumers. (Today) But the point i'm making is that it is useful if you have the application for it.
The reason that it's all just 'a gimmick' is because for the consumer, the need isn't there, YET. I'm looking forward to the day where my PocketPC can wirelessly connect to the internet and watch Video on Demand. The foundation blocks are already starting! Recently there was an article talking about 802.11 at airports. When that happens, I'll be able to use my PDA to get CNN video updates while I'm waiting for my plane.
That's just one idea. Down the road as more components go into place, I can see the PDA becoming an awesome entertainment device.
The good news for you, though, is that the competition in the market is providing you the alternative you want. The cheap, does what ya need it to PDA. I don't think those will ever disappear. There's nothing wrong, though, with releasing a product with a lot of features. It's not Microsoft's fault that there isn't a lot of content being taken advantage of on the PocketPC yet.
Re:My company wants these features. (Score:2)
Re:My company wants these features. (Score:3, Interesting)
I downloaded an episode of Quantum Leap to my PocketPC on my last trip. The resolution was like 160 by 120, the screen ghosted, the frame rate was 7fps, and the idiot next to me who, saw me watching this show, didn't realize that his questions were interrupting my experience.
Despite these limitations, it worked surprisingly well. A spacebattle wouldn't work too well here, but for watching a character based show, the story came across just fine. The best thing is, the entire trip my laptop stayed in the overhead bin.
Now if I could bring a 25 inch TV on a plane, I'd agree that'd be a better solution. In the mean time, this solution worked pretty well. My only complaint was that I only had enough RAM for one episode.
When I can get a 400mhz PDA with a 1gig Microdrive, I'll have one hell of an entertainment option for airplane travel.
OS 5.0 (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:OS 5.0 (Score:2)
Market share: 72% worldwide share(6)
Then down at the bottom:
(6) U.S. Market Share. Source: IDC, Full Year 2000
72% worldwide share, cited by a US market share survey in 2000--before PocketPC came out. It would be interesting to see what it says now...
Handspring (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Handspring (Score:2)
Since OS 5 runs on ARM, and your Visor doesn't, I, too, would dearly love to see OS 5 running on your Visor.
Perhaps too little too late? (Score:3)
I have three Palms, including a VIIx (for which they're charging too much, thus killing it, but that's another story), but I think my next PDA won't be a Palm. I haven't seen much from them that would entice me to buy a new model. The i405 was a disappointment--using memory sticks instead of CF cards was a major factor in me rejecting it for a purchase.
Anyway, I digress. I like Palms, don't get me wrong. But I'm not sure if the combination of Palm OS 5 arriving late to the game as well as the high cost and relatively small feature set of the Palm line will allow it to survive.
Re:Perhaps too little too late? (Score:2)
Personally, I think Sony really has the right idea, combining the friendly PalmOS (and I will always argue that scaling up from simplicity is better than trying to scale down from a desktop for this form factor) with higher rez screens and multimedia features. It's too bad they're so proprietary with their hardware, but they definately point a nice third way between Palm's traditional spartan-ness and the gee-whiz-features at the cost of usability of the PocketPC offerings.
Re:Perhaps too little too late? (Score:2, Funny)
I have three Palms [...]
Wow, that must be great for pr0n!
Where's the beef? (Score:4, Insightful)
In phones (Score:1)
Palm/Visor... (Score:2, Interesting)
So, most of the current visor users are stuck with Palm OS version 4.2 or something. Unfortunately, there are a few downsides to that particular version and bugs. And... we can't upgrade!
Now, if this upgrade is really to die for, we can be seeing Palm's sales go up and Handspring's go down. Or no?
Just an issue I thought I'd raise.
Re:Palm/Visor... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Palm/Visor... (Score:2)
Well, you can't upgrade to the latest OS, but you can install patches and bugfixes. My Palm V ran 3.1 when I got it, and I wound up installing a couple of patches before I upgraded to 3.3. Sure, I can upgrade 3.5 or 4.0, but I don't really have a compelling need to do so, so I haven't.
So, to reiterate. You can patch your OS with bugfixes, even if you can't replace the ROM image. If you're stuck with a buggy version of PalmOS, it's not specifically because Handspring chose not to use flash to store the OS.
OS 5? (Score:5, Funny)
handspring? (Score:1)
No More Dragonball (Score:2)
increased horsepower of the broad range of ARM-compliant processors
Wow, no one saw THAT coming!
More TI, less Motorola (Score:2)
Where's the JVM ? (Score:2, Interesting)
Compared to the the new sharp offering (Score:2)
Java on the palmtop is a very happy thing
Re:Where's the JVM ? (Score:2)
it's a java VM that runs on palm OS. it even, gasp! has been ported to Newton, and even TI Calculators.
this may not be enough (Score:5, Insightful)
From the press releases, it's not clear that Palm is addressing any of these issues. OS5 claims no more functionality than you can get on a Sony right now. What about a real window system? What about a real file system? What about a real database? What about 32bit addressing and memory protection? Support for 320x320 screens and some audio and bluetooth APIs isn't going to hack it.
Altogether, OS5 may be more of an incremental improvement over previous versions, offering mostly features that companies like Handera and Sony have already offered on their Palm devices. That may simply not be enough to succeed in the market, given that it's competing against both WinCE and Linux on some nifty hardware.
Well, at least, ARM-based Palms may end up being a nice platform to port Linux to, and it may become available at fire-sale prices if things keep on going this way.
Re:this may not be enough (Score:2)
As for what Palm wants to be, I think they're aiming pretty squarely at being your provider of a hand-held device that offers all the tools you really need, and none of the frills and fancy stuff that you don't.
The problem is, the general public always gets suckered in by the frills. (Palm already made a big concession to this audience when they released a color Palm device.) Ultimately, I think Palm will lose out because they believe in "keeping it simple". Their customers want full-blown PCs, shrunk down to pocket-size. Palm keeps telling them "No, you don't want that at all! You want a device with good connectivity, that complements your PC back at home/work."
As long as you keep the environment simple enough, who really cares about "32-bit addressing" and "memory protection"? A Palm device is intended to be a "temporary holding place for the information contained primarily in your PC"! If it crashes, it shouldn't be a big issue. If you're using it properly, you hotsync it often with the PC - and the most you should lose is a note or two entered remotely, before you had a chance to return to said PC.
Re:this may not be enough (Score:2)
No, the problem is that the existing Palm devices are already nice, no-frills devices. But Palm apparently wants to be in something that's higher margin than a sub-$100 consumer device with a simple OS. At least they keep saying so. And if they want to play in that space, they need to provide the features.
As long as you keep the environment simple enough, who really cares about "32-bit addressing" and "memory protection"? A Palm device is intended to be a "temporary holding place for the information contained primarily in your PC"!
Information like images, speech, etc. require a lot of processing power and memory to encode and decode. Furthermore, the existing libraries are written assuming 32bit architectures, and they are a big pain to port to Palm's 16bit architecture (believe me, I have tried).
Re:this may not be enough (Score:2, Insightful)
What about a real window system? What about a real file system?
What do you need a window system in a PDA for? I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to fiddle with windows and files in a PDA, that doesn't make sense. Every time a discussion happens on the future of UI on /., we say that the desktop/window and file/folder metaphors need to be left behind. Now you want to carry them into PDA's?
Re:this may not be enough (Score:3, Interesting)
The Palm was designed with the intention of not having windows to focus the user on the task at hand. Since the user can jump to another program at any time without losing data, this is actually an advantage. Plus, all these windows controls would just take a lot of screen estate away.
> What about a real file system?
The Palm has some sort of a file system, but it's hidden from the user, because the user is not interested in defining a filename everything he wants to save a note. If you need to transfer your files to a, there are utilities to help you with it.
Re:this may not be enough (Score:2)
The Palm Pilot is a PDA. It isn't meant to do "computery" things. It's something you can turn on, look for a phone number, and tun back off in about 5 seconds.
Re:this may not be enough (Score:2)
Watching a MPEG on a screen isn't an assisting function. It's cool, and all of your coworkers will nod their heads and say that's neat, but it doesn't do anything for you. Playing a short movie on a small screen doesn't help me do anything. Playing MP3s may be handy and entertaining, but it doesn't ASSIST me in doing anything.
Yes, laptops are big and heavy. They're about as hard to carry around as your backpack. But you know what? They're a hell of alot better at playing Q3a, watching dvd's and everything else people use to tout the supriority of WinCE devices over Palm devices. Hey, guess what, you're asking for a mini computer, not a PDA.
PDA's are much more usefull than getting a just a phone number. That was just an example. I use mine to track time at work, manage my financial time at work, to schedule reminders of things I need to do, to store my grocery list, to track mileage on my vehicles and their maintenance schedules (among other things).
Just because you have a device that fits in your hand that plays mpeg's doesn't make it a PDA. There are lots of devices that perform that function. What do you call those Cell Phones with built in PDAs? You don't call it a PDA do you? And you certainly don't just say it's a cell phone. It's both. Not one, not the other. By your definition of a PDA, the GameBoy would qualify as one because it has a small screen and runs on batteries -- but it isn't! And I doubt anyone here would try to say it was.
Quit trying to call an apple an orange.
Re:this may not be enough (Score:2)
Repost: Oh man, forgot to preview (Score:2)
I know it's not the only thing that PPCs do. But anytime a Palm vs PPC discussion starts, PPC advocates tout that their device is superior because it can play MP3's, Mpegs, and Quake. And my response is typically "So? None of those things are usefull in a PDA, and you can do it better on other devices already out there". People argue that the PPC is a superior Palm because it does non PDA stuff. Whoopie do.
Yes. I know what you meant. I have a Vx myself. And use it all the time. But different applications call for different solutions. A Palm in not the answer I'm looking for for this particular project, but neither is laptop.
Which is great. What you're asking for is the video/image editing functionality found in a laptop, except smaller.
You seem to be saying than apples are useless, and that I should get a watermelon.
No, I'm saying that you really want a fruit coctail, but keep asking for the apple, and when you get the apple you insist that it's an orange too. :)
My argument was never that Palm should follow PPC (I don't think they should either). But that you can't say that a laptop is a better alternative to PPC type PDAs. They all have their places.
I think for the capabilities people often use to say that PPC devices are superior to Palm devices, laptops are much better suited. I've never used a PPC myself; they look too computery for my tastes (if that makes any sense), but I don't mean to imply that they are useless for PDA tasks.
Re:Repost: Oh man, forgot to preview (Score:2)
A brief history:
* person says Palm devices are inferior because his PPC device can play Mpegs & Quake
* I say "so what, get a laptop"
* You jump in and say that I'm narrow minded and am holding back PDAs
* I make useless and confusing fruit analogies
* You find my fruit anaologies confusing and useless
* -->current messageNo. I'm asking for a PDA with image editing functionality. You need to stop assuming you know what I want, or what's best for me.
...which would be a device with the image editing functionality found in a laptop, except smaller...
I really don't think that the fruit analogy really works. Especially when you consider that image editing SW is available for Palm anyway. Doesn't that make Palm just as bad as PPC?
No, but judging the Palm's abilities as a PDA by it's ability to perform non-PDA tasks isn't a valid comparison in my opinion. If you want a PDA that does other stuff too, that's fine. But people (I guess I should stop saying you at this point
Mark my works. In 5 years time. We won't be having this argument, because all PDAs will have multimedia capabilities. It's just a normal part of technology evolving. Anyone who thinks that PDA's will stay PIM/PDA only, and never integrate laptop-like capabilities is just kidding themselves. It's all ready happened! But it's just the beginning, so everything is still a bit clunky.
I'm sure we will too, but it will exist as a "cute" feature, an enhancement. Like sound was on the original Newton. The sound was cool. But using my Palm I don't feel that the difference between simple clicks and a crumpling piece of paper effects it's usability.
I also think that devices with more and more capabilities will not be called PDA's. It's kind of like calling a TiVo a digital VCR. It's so much more than that, yet if you tell someone it's a digital VCR they don't grasp all of what it can do. PPC devices are mini computers. They are! Just because it's a mini computer doesn't mean it can't function well as a PDA. But the mere fact that it's a mini computer doesn't make it a superior PDA either. Specs alone don't make one PDA superior to another.
Re:this may not be enough (Score:2)
Re:this may not be enough (Score:2)
Re:this may not be enough (Score:2)
What about any evidence that these features would provide a more useful product?
In my use of the Palm, I find that it does a lot of useful things very well: scheduling/calendar, ToDo management, field note taking, business card folder replacement (with searching and such). These things make my work life (and, to a lesser extent, my home life) easier than it would be without the Palm. If I wanted a portable audio or video player, I'd buy one. It's a different market.
The commuting in heavy traffic test (Score:2, Insightful)
Well written PalmOS apps are usefull while standing. Ever try to look-up a phone number in your laptop while standing at a pay phone at the airport? It's not a plesant sight.
The PalmOS os for people on the go. If all you do is drive a desk don't bother with any PDA.
-s
Lotus ... WordPerfect ... Novell ... Palm? (Score:4, Insightful)
sPh
Re:Lotus ... WordPerfect ... Novell ... Palm? (Score:2, Interesting)
If you're considering an upgrade... (Score:2, Interesting)
"Palm OS 5 incorporates support for the APIs in Palm OS 4.0, thereby enabling existing software applications that comply with these APIs to run on Palm OS 5. This compatibility support ensures that an investment in 68000-based software is protected into the future. "
if I'm right this means a m68k-to-PowerPC style move where the new OS running in a new hardware will provide the software compatibility AND emulation of the older CPU machine language.
Now, will it keep the small size and memory footprint of older versions ?
My old Palm IIIC had 2 Mb of flash memory and only 1.4 Mb were actually used by the OS and PIM apps. compare this with the 14 Mb+ that WinCE or QTopia takes in my current iPaq and you'll see how eficiently and fast a 2-4 Mb PalmOS would run in ARM hardware.
now a question ? will Palm sell this new version to iPaq owners ? I'll certainly give it a try.
Great OS, but Palm's platforms are lagging... (Score:4, Interesting)
I went out this weekend and upgraded to the Sony Clié 615 [sonystyle.com], and I've never been happier. 16MB RAM, 320x320x16 resolution, continuously variable brightness control, Memory Stick slot (with a flickering drive light beside it!), polyphonic sound, and one absolutely thrilled user.
The OS is flashable, so I expect I'll upgrade to 5.0 when the time comes, but I've seen the future of Palm hardware, and it ain't at Palm Computing.
Discussion Topic 1: Palm OS 5.0 supports display resolutions "from 160x160 pixels to multiples of 160x160 pixels." That takes in my 320x320 display, but it raises an interesting point: What is the ideal aspect ratio of a handheld device? Pocket PC and others use quarter-VGA, while Palm devices use this square format (which on a Clié provides 33% more pixels than QVGA). Any opinions on which display format is more ergonomic for a handheld, or for a desktop for that matter?
Discussion Topic 1½: I have nearly three hundred ebooks sitting on my 128MB Memory Stick right now, with room for another couple hundred, and I love reading from my Clié. My question is this: why would anyone buy a dedicated ebook reader, unless it were simply too cheap to turn down?
Re:Great OS, but Palm's platforms are lagging... (Score:5, Informative)
OS 5.x will only run on ARM processors. The Dragonball handhelds will be stuck at OS 4.x forever.
Re:Great OS, but Palm's platforms are lagging... (Score:2)
This, among other things on those pages, mean OS 5 will also work on the 68000(Dragonball) processors as well.
Re:Great OS, but Palm's platforms are lagging... (Score:2)
Re:Great OS, but Palm's platforms are lagging... (Score:2, Informative)
This, among other things on those pages, mean OS 5 will also work on the 68000(Dragonball) processors as well.
No, this means that you have many choices of ARM processor. You could for example, pick an OMAP chip from Texas Instruments (e.g. ARM7 + C55x DSP), or you could pick some StrongARM based chip from Intel, or whatever. So long as it's ARM, it's fine.
The press release says it pretty plainly:
Licensees can choose from a full range of processors, starting with the ARM 7 CPU and scaling to the highest-performance ARM chips from Intel, Motorola and Texas Instruments.
Nothing is magically going to make that OS, which is written in/compiled to the ARM instruction set, run on a 68k, unless you're planning on writing an ARM emulator for the 68k. This would of course be rather dumb, as it would be so sloooooooooow that you would lose any benefit of moving to the ARM architecture.
Mechanik
Palm as eBook (Score:2)
Simply because the screen is too friggin' small. Even a pocket-paperback has 4 or 6 times the "screen area" of a Palm handheld, making it easier to read at a distance and reducing the number of times you need to "scroll" to a new page. I like the convenience of reading books on my Palm, yes, but not the way I can only get two sentences on screen at a time using a comfortable font.
Re:Great OS, but Palm's platforms are lagging... (Score:2, Informative)
The real benefit of higher resolution: type (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm not sure what aspect ratio is "ideal" (it's certainly handy to have a square screen if you want to support 90 rotation of your UI without breaking a sweat), but in my mind the big win with high-res devices isn't multimedia [slashdot.org]; it's text readability.
At 72 ppi, anti-aliasing (and subpixel LCD tricks like ClearType [microsoft.com]) will only get you so far, especially with users looking so closely at the screens on these devices (they're handhelds, after all -- you're likely to hold them closer to your face than, say, your 30-pound CRT). Reading long passages of text at 72dpi, even on a good LCD, is still miserable.
However, with 320x320 packed into a couple of inches, we're talking about a dot pitch of 150ppi or higher, which approaches the pixel density (read: sharpness!) of a low-end inkjet printer. Assuming Palm (er, "PalmSource") can come up with some high-quality screen fonts (to replace the now-quaint bitmap fonts that once contributed strongly to the visual identity of the platform), future PalmOS devices could finally offer a pleasant e-book experience to end users.
Anyone know if they're building in multitasking? (Score:2, Insightful)
But... only the foreground application can do anything. Like a mac pre-OS 7.0 sans-Switcher. Makes it very hard to build apps that listen patiently in the background for something to do something else...
I wish this weren't a limitation--i'd be able to tell clients to steer clear from WinCE and go with a solid platform. But, despite that platform being horrible to program, flaky even after 4 major rewrites, and unwilling to play well with others, it still has that thing that PalmOS doesn't--background processes that listen to transmitters, network interfaces, and all that good stuff. So, those looking to build something that's more businessy than Vexed© have to go with shiny m$ approved devices that have a battery life of roughly 8 minutes.
Perhaps the Handspring folks resolved the can't-listen-on-transmitter-while-playing-DragonB
What Difference Does It Make In The Long Run? (Score:3)
None, if you ask me.
Palm's CEO has been on record saying that his company has no interest in making "handheld computers", preferring to stick with the original plan of making better and better Palm organizers. Its like this guy's first reaction to finding a pot of gold would be to get rid of all the shiny yellow stuff inside it and use the pot to grow a house plant.
IMHO, Palm just doesn't get it. They're missing out on a market worth billions, potentially, all because they cant see past the idea of using their hardware for anything more than a $200 equivalent of a 39 cent paper note pad.
Palm just doesn't seem capable of looking down the road technologically speaking. I don't really think they understand the potential of their own niche. I mean, think about what people carry around on them today. A pager, a cellphone, a PDA. Nothing really stops Palm from designing and delivering a device that does all three of these things in one package. Fortunately, there WILL be a company that realizes where the handheld market is going. Unfortunately, I seriously doubt it will be Palm Inc, a company content on reinventing the Rolodex.
OTOH (Score:2)
Re:What Difference Does It Make In The Long Run? (Score:5, Interesting)
Palm OS is releasing a new version that will be licensed to many different hardware manufacturers. The point is that these hardware manufacturers can take a multimedia-ready Palm OS 5 and build something more than a "39 cent paper note pad".
Re:What Difference Does It Make In The Long Run? (Score:2, Interesting)
But: I say shrink the old Palm IIIs a bit (I'm biased), and resell them for $20 - $40.
Instant niche market. The Duron/Celerons of handhelds.
Then refocus the rest of the line with competing against the Pocket PCs.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:What Difference Does It Make In The Long Run? (Score:2)
If you really think a PDA is no better than a notepad, you haven't learned to use one properly.
While Palm may have some strategic problems for the future, you can't argue with their past success. Either there are a lot of stupid people out there who should have bought notepads instead, or maybe a PDA IS an improvement after all... I know which way I'd vote.
Re:What Difference Does It Make In The Long Run? (Score:2)
I do not need a palm sized computer, but an organiser that, er, organises. beeps me and then tells me what to do when, no matter where it got the info in the first place (secretary, PC schedual or Organiser agenda)
Let me see it (Score:2, Insightful)
Its just silly (Score:3)
Just take a look at their product comparison page. For example, they rail the iPaq on battery usage.
I totally agree with them; the iPaq doesn't have a long battery life. But that's not why I bought it... I bought it to have a true HANDHELD PC, and that's what the iPaq is.
Palm's market is for PDA-type devices. Palms are great for storing a few SMALL notes (who can really go quickly using Graffiti?), contact list, and other small things. But you certainly aren't going to get far trying to play Quake on it, terminal service into the domain controller, or pull down highly-compressed DVDs across your 802.11b link to watch them.
I liken Palm right now to a bicycle maker trying out-advertise a car maker; it is totally silly. They are two different markets altogether.
If Palm wanted to start making cars (aka enter the HANDHELD PC market), then they are free to do so. Many will still buy their bicycles (PDAs), but some might choose them for their cars (handheld pcs) as well. In that way, everyone would win. Palm would have a greater range of products and thus more possible sales, and Microsoft would have some real competition in the handheld PC market.
But as things are going, Palm can only pretend to compete with the cars for so long before they get burned. They need to decide very quickly which one (or both) they wanna make and go after the proper market.
I differ on some points. (Score:2)
Similarly, why play Quake on a handheld? You are limited by input and output again -- small screen, no keyboard, no analog joystick or mouse. Desktop computers fill a very important role. Laptops can fulfill it to an extent (it's easier to fullfil it when the laptop is not crippled by low-quality components), and do so for only a bit more than a "good" Palmtop PC. For only a little more money, and a little less battery life, you get a gargantuan screen, much more effecicient data entry input devices, and bulk storeage devices.
"Palms are great for storing a few SMALL notes (who can really go quickly using Graffiti?), " -- actually, I can grafitti faster than I can print. For taking notes when I'm going to be away from any kind of computer for a while, the Palm and PPK make a great team. It's like having a portable (albeit limited) word processer with amazing battery life.
Palms are handy little devices. They are (like Palmtop PCs) limited by their resolution, input, and storage. However, they are tailored more towards constant usage on the go and still allow a great deal of versatility: my old Gameboy and Palm both can play the same kind of RPGs as found in Final Fanstasy for the GB, but my Palm can also replace my binders, wrist watch, calendar, todolist, black book, Ti85, and much more.
Try looking at the strengths of a product before going on to rationalize buying a PalmPC when we know you won't ever use you PalmPC for the mentioned purposes daily (only when you are trying to prove it can be done).
Newton (Score:3, Interesting)
That out of the way it was a sweet bit o technology, if big and bulky and with handwriting recognition that took a few revs to get worked out.
However it also had NewtonScript [amug.org] which appears to have been a fab development [apple.com] environment and incorperated some really useful ideas about a common OS-service database; something which Palm & MS-Palm folks are now really hurting for.
So, and regardless of the move to ARM processors, I'm wondering if anyone is considering doing a gnuwtonscript and releasing that? I'm well aware that Apple holds that code tightly to it's breast, has no intentions of making it's own palm-device (and so averred in an SEC-regulated announcement last year) and that the Newton folks were soon scattered to the winds after their unit was shut down...
But a decade later it seems to be a thing that would be wildly popular and fit right into the emerging needs of the little beasts.
-- Michael
ps Please feel free to correct me on the details, like I said I was never a Newton-person other then admiring them from afar.
Re:Newton (Score:3, Insightful)
The level of integration on my Newton is unmatched by Palm or CE. For example, I installed a mail program (SimpleMail) and suddenly, all applications on the system had a new option to send the current document or current page as an e-mail. If in a database, for example, I select the mail option, it will bring up my names and let me select the person to whom I want to send a nicely formatted copy of the database. If I tap the mail option in a sketch program, the image will be exported as a GIF and mailed as an attachment. This ability of a program (like SimpleMail) to add functionality to the system (like e-mailing) means that as you install the applications you need on the Newton to manage the types of information you work with, things get more and more integrated, rather than less integrated with each new application as happens in PalmOS or Windows CE. If at some point I don't need mail any more, I will delete the SimpleMail application (only two taps needed) and the mail option will disappear from all of the programs on the system as if it had never been there.
Furthermore, because I have ethernet (2 PCMCIA slots on this unit) I can send and receive tons of mail, browse the web, read usenet, telnet into my Linux system, etc., all with relative ease. I don't use wireless, but there are many who do. And at the drop of the hat, I can eject the standard 3Com PCMCIA ethernet card and isnert a standard PCMCIA modem if I need to use dial-up PPP.
On my Newton, I never have to remember where any document is "saved" because everything entered into the system anywhere is instantly saved in flash until you remove the information, not in a file, but in the inivisibly-managed "soups" (i.e. a kind of distributed storage database) of the operating system. Applications are stored the same way, so that text and applications are actually managed in a unified manner. It's such a great system...
On Palms, there was always a 1:1 correlation -- your document or information basically "belonged" to the applet you used to enter it; the system wasn't integrated enough to use the same valuable bits of data in many different ways. In Windows CE, I just got tired of using a desktop OS -- too often I found myself navigating my flash card like a hard drive, searching for a filename, doing file -> open, etc.
And in both PalmOS and CE, applications are stored and managed differently from documents (especially in CE, where installing/uninstalling/categorizing applications is a nightmare), while in NewtonOS applications and documents rather unified and are managed and conceptually related to one another using the same taps.
I'll still go to the local CompUSA to try to new Palm devices, but I have recently invested hundreds in two "backup" Newton 2100 units on eBay so that I can continue to use Newton far into the future if nobody else can come up with something as nice. With a 160 MHz StrongARM processor (this from a five-year-old device!) and the ability to use CompactFlash (thanks to the Newton ATA project), a 100dpi 480x320 4-bit depth display and wireless ethernet, I don't feel outdated at all.
A little perspective on Palm's market share... (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's put this in perspective, shall we? All PocketPC manufacturers together sell fewer handhelds than Handspring and Sony together. Palm's own handhelds outsell all PocketPC devices combined by almost a factor of 3.
I do think that Palm needs to split off the OS unit into an entirely separate company, to avoid the problem of competing with one's licensees, and I do think Sony (much as I hate their DMCA-loving guts) makes much slicker PalmOS handhelds these days than Palm or Handspring (though my m505 meets my needs).
That said, I don't think Palm is doomed, and I do think there's a real astroturf campaign being waged by Microsoft across the net. Here's a clue - wherever you see "Palm's unit share down 44%! PocketPC revenue share increases by 73%!" someone has an agenda to make Palm look bad - if they weren't trying deliberately to do so, they wouldn't compare apples (unit share of a single PalmOS manufacturer) to oranges (revenue share, i.e. share of total dollars spent, of all PocketPC licensees).
Yes, the number of dollars being spent on PocketPC devices is increasing (still only 26% of total dollars spent on PDAs). This statistic itself is misleading given the much higher prices (and manufacturing costs) of PocketPC devices. Those PocketPC 2002 devices cost a bundle to make; wake me up when a PocketPC manufacturer claims margins close to those of any PalmOS manufacturer.
I'm not saying Palm couldn't lose their lead in market share to PocketPC handhelds. I'm just saying they haven't lost it yet, nor are they doomed to lose it barring some extraordinarily shady tactic from Microsoft (e.g. deliberately breaking all PalmOS hotsync capabilities in their next OS - something that won't happen unless MS greases enough palms to repeal all the antitrust legislation we've got).
Others have made the adequately made the points that PocketPC devices are still usability nightmares compared to Palms, and so are really only selling to extreme gearheads who "need" that colorful battery-sucking brick to impress the neighbors/vendors/clients/ladies. "But look! You can watch the Matrix on it! All I had to do was hook my VCR to my computer, encode the video into a 15fps MPEG file, which I stored on my $300 microdrive, which fits into the CompactFlash expansion sleeve, which fits on my iPaq like so! Of course, I can't watch the whole movie on a single battery charge unless I use the PCMCIA sleeve which has an extra battery and more than doubles the thickness, but look!! Keanu!!"
-Isaac
Not much useful information (Score:4, Insightful)
The only thing that really stands out to me is "supports up to 320x320 resolution". Big deal... Sony has that now. Why the Hell don't they support up to 480x320? You'd get the high resolution that the Sony units along with the virtual graffiti area that PPCs and Handeras have. Some people prefer one over the other, but pretty much *everyone* would appreciate having both.
As far as all the "PalmOS is dead, PPC rules" posts, you're either uninformed, stupid, or running a FUD campaign. PalmOS *still* controls 80% of the market, despite M$ pouring huge amounts of money into PPC. If PPC was its own company, they would've gone under a long time ago. Palm doesn't have a sugar daddy, and they're not in great shape financially, but they're certainly alive and kicking. It's possible that they'll go under in a few years (they are buring through their cash pretty quick) but who knows?
As far as comments about Palm being nothing more than an organizer and PPC being a computer, (1) that's been discussed to death and (2) who the crap modded them up? A quick refresher... having a taskswitching vs multitasking OS does not differentiate between a PDA and a computer. Multimedia isn't required either. All PalmOS devices can run spreadsheets, databases, programming languages, word processors, games, email, web browsing, etc... They are real computers.
Some people want better audio and video playback, so Palm is adding it. Does this go against the Zen of Palm? Perhaps... depends on how it's done. We'll know soon.
Can Palm weather the storm? (Score:3, Insightful)
So they've painted themselves into a corner. Handspring at least did a little better - by making their PDAs cheaper and non-upgradeable they have customers that are starting to wonder if they should get the new model - but not many, because they have the same market Palm has, and these people don't care to fix what's not broken.
So they see their sales dropping, and they are going to be cutting jobs and weathering the storm (by seperating their businesses, etc), and at the same time try and find a way to 1) get people to upgrade 2) break into other markets.
They've chosen primarily 1. They indicate that palm 5 will have backward compatability, but don't indicate any sort of forward compatability - soon you'll see apps that only run on >= P5 OS. They are hoping that this will happen quickly enough to save them before they run out of money. The only 'new' market they are trying to get into is the enterprise market again They've been trying to get into if for years, and haven't made any headway because their devices are not seen as necessary. Of the highly touted new features, the only one the palm doesn't have in its earlier versions in one form or another is the encryption - which John Doe doesn't need, care for, or want to deal with. This is a feature that the 'enterprise' customers have always wanted - on paper. They won't likely use it to its fullest, but it's a comfort buzzword they think they need.
Prognosis: Not good. Palm won't die out, but they won't have the time or resources to make any significant change to its OS and retarget it for larger, untapped markets. Its current offering is slightly less dazzling when seen side by side at the shopping mall, and not nearly as well marketted as the PocketPC.
-Adam
No protected memory? Big security hole. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Palm vs Ipaq (Score:5, Insightful)
Incidentally, this is why Palm sales are so slow - the Palm you bought 2 years ago still works perfectly and quickly, so there's no reason to upgrade.
Re:Palm vs Ipaq (Score:2)
Indeed. IMHO, this is because Microsoft appears to be trying to give you a desktop "in your pocket" and Palm is providing you with an extension to you computer's desktop. This is a subtle but important difference.
Yep, my Palm III (purchased in 1998?) works just fine, although I have been considering an upgrade. Color and a higher resolution screen (320x320) like the Sony would be nice. I don't really want to buy the Sony because:
1. I'm not sure how long they'll still in the PDA business.
2. I don't like memory sticks!
3. The form factor is different than the m500-m505, Palm V, etc. And I wonder about cases and other accessories.
Milalwi
Re:Palm vs Ipaq (Score:2)
However if I replace it, I need three things:
Sub-$200 price.
More than 2mb of RAM (which is pretty easy these days).
Smallest possible form-factor (Palm V or smaller).
I've already kind of bought-into the Memory-stick thing, with my Sony Camcorder, so if I go with the Sony, they've got that, which solves my memory requirements and then some, and their form-factor is smaller than the V, I hear (but I'll believe it when I see it) - but their prices are just out of line. In fact, there is nothing sub $350 that's the size of a Palm V, except a used Palm V. If the market has dictated this trend, then apparently the market of people who need a smaller form factor, has a TON of money to spend. I have a ton of money to spend, but I refuse to do so on products with inappropriately bundled features. I don't really need color as much as I need a smaller form factor. Alas and alack!
Re:Palm vs Ipaq (Score:2)
I would like to back this up one hundred percent. If we talk about useful and useable devices, the Palm hit my optimum point with the Palm VX. I thought about upgrading to the 500 or the 505. But I don't want colour. I don't need more storage. PalmOS 4 does not excite me, since I need none of it's features.
This is a real problem in the tech world, we rely on a continuous upgrade pattern, and when that is not required then the company suffers. The same is happening in the PC market, people relise that we don't really need umpteen billion gigahertz, most people are perfectly happy with their computer of 18 months ago, and that hurts sales of hardware, lots.
Re:My next Palm (Score:2)
I'd go with a Sony PictureBook. Though it costs a little more (mine was $1200 new), it weighs less and doesn't force you to use Windows CE.
so you want a Handera 330 then (Score:2, Informative)
not as thin as a Visor Edge but it has both Compact Flash and SD, takes 4AAA or a single Li-Ion rechargable battery pack.
Go forth and purchase
NB: not an employee, just a TRGPro owner who can't afford to upgrade
Re:68K (Score:2)
Texas Instruments uses the 68K for their graphing calculators.
Steve M