Comparing the DVRs? 335
zonker asks: "We are
getting hooked up with Dish
Network Satellite TV this weekend and opted to go with one of
their PVR
(personal video recorder) plans. I started wondering if anyone has
done any technical reviews or comparisons of the video quality (not
just features) of the various digital video recorders out there (TiVo, DishPVR,
ReplayTV, etc.). I am curious
mostly about recorded video quality compared to the source video.
All of them make claims to have various recording 'speeds' like
VCR's. VCR's analog output is predictable (fuzzy recording with bits
of static here and there, worse when signal quality is bad).
However digital recorders have varying levels of pixelization. I was
curious which ones fared the best and if anyone has comments on
either systems?"
Well, some do... (Score:3, Informative)
All it does is record the stream sent down by the sat, so what you're watching is what you would get if it was live TV. I belive UltimateTV works the same way, so I would assume most dish PVRs work this way.
Tivo Forum & Tivo FAQ (Score:5, Informative)
DishPVR (Score:4, Informative)
DishPVR, DirectTiVo and UTV all store the satellite bitstream directly, so there is no quality setting, since there is no further compression.
One word (Score:2, Informative)
Of course, since you opted to go with DishNetwork that doesn't apply in your case. But to anyone else who hasn't made that decision, DirecTV + TiVo is extreme dual-tuner goodness. It also has the added bonus of storing the raw MPEG stream from the satellite instead of decoding and recompressing programs.
Re:Well, some do... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Well, some do... (Score:3, Informative)
No, it isn't. The incoming bitstream from the satellite is variable rate. Sports and premium channels are generally encoded at a higher rate than the talking heads on CNN.
The DirecTiVo will get about 30 hours on average, but not always.
It does directly record the digital stream from the satellite as the previous poster said, so there is no loss of quality over watching it live.
Dish501 (Score:2, Informative)
Buy a TiVo (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Need a FREE version (Score:2, Informative)
In most cases if you compared the price of a TiVo to the price of a ReplayTV you'd find that the TiVo plus it's lifetime subscriptions fee equals the ReplayTV. Basically they are both getting the same amount of money out of you. TiVo just chose to split part of their purchase price out as a subscription fee so you could pay it monthly if you chose.
The new ReplayTV 4000's are now available. These suckers aren't cheap. They add commercial skip and the ability to share shows over a broadband connection.
Personally I have a ReplayTV and LOVE it. I don't know how people can watch TV without one. It truly changes how you watch televison.
I have unhooked my VCR and with any luck I'll never hook it up again.
Re:Well, some do... (Score:3, Informative)
The DirecTiVo record the bitstream as it is received from the satellite, so it in effect has only 1 recording quality, however the satellite signal itself will already be compressed at varying levels.
EchoStar Dishplayer and PVR501 record the bitstream.
I have a DishPlayer, 501 and a SA TiVo. The EchoStar equipment is rather bug-ridden (check dbsforums.com for more info), but it record at a better quality than the TiVo (because the TiVo is standalone, thus compresing the already compressed satellite signal). Plus, the TiVo has to use the IR blaster to control the satellite receiver (at least echostar ones), so channel changing is slow and sometimes (rarely) misses the change.
However, if I were just gettig one and had dishnetwork, I would get the TiVo, followed by a used (or if you can find one since its discontinued) DishPlayer (which is very similar to Microsoft's UltimateTV Directv receiver), and lastly the PVR501..
The PVR501 is not much more than a digital VCR. It has no "P"ersonal functionality like the tivo (suggestions, wishlists, searching, etc.)
Now what I really need is one of these can can record HDTV..
It does all that! (Score:5, Informative)
Sure you can. Make a Title Wishlist for MISSION MARS and set it to auto-record. Done. That is the point of Wishlists, to record matching type things. Wishlists are in the 2.0 and up software, so if you just bought the Standalone unit, it'll only have 1.3 on there. It'll upgrade after it dials in a few times.
2) You can't ask it to record programs matching criteria like a particular actor, or keyword in title etc.
Again, use Wishlists. The possible wishlists are: Actor, Director, Keyword, Title (keyword but only in the title), and Genre.
3) Once a program has been selected for recording, you can't change the record quality without cancelling it, finding it again via search, channel guide or whatever, and re-selecting to record it.
Huh? Go to the ToDo List, find the show you want to change, hit select, then go to the "options" screen on that show. Change all the settings for that recording you like, including the quality.
4) It takes 2-4 hours to process and index the program guide after making a call to TiVo! (what on earth is it doing?)
Indexing the new data into it's database. However, this does tell me you have 1.3 software and not 2.0. The newer 2.0 software indexes in the background.
5) There are a few subtle bugs in the menu display software that sometimes cause display artifacts (rarely though).
Mostly fixed in 2.0 and up (2.5 is out now).
6) If you have a partial recording of something that you are also currently recording, it doesn't distinguish between the two - so you can delete the partial until the current recording it complete
Huh? I fail to understand this one, but all recordings are treated separately. If you record something and then it doesn't finish so you record it again later, those are separate and treated separately.
7) Sometimes the GUI is slow to respond (I assume the CPU is busy - just evert so slightly underpowered to do everything it needs. Although the record/playback seems to get highest priority - I've noticed no artifacts there)
Yes, it it a tad slow to respond at times. This was improved, but not fixed, in 2.0 and up.
In short, wait until you download the new software before passing judgement. The new software is tremendous compared to 1.3. It'll download 2.5 for you in under a week or two of first setting it up.
Quality made simple (Score:5, Informative)
The other two major ones (Tivo standalone units, ReplayTV) are mostly comparable in picture quality.
Tivo has 4 picture quality settings, that range the spectrum pretty well, with "Best" being very close to live, and "Basic" being about VCR quality, but slightly sharper. Replay has 3 quality settings, I believe, and they are mostly the same as Tivo, picture wise.
Audio wise, it seems as if the Replay lowers the bitrate on the audio as well as the video in the lower quality settings, but this may be untrue or a rumor. Tivo definitely uses the same audio quality regardless of the quality setting. It sounds pretty good and I've not noticed any weirdness on Tivo audio except for some loss on the rear channel on Dolby Pro-Logic signals from time to time. Neither unit can record Dolby Digital, while the Dish/DTV-based units can and have digital outputs as well.
Re:Tivo capture resolution (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Tivo capture resolution (Score:3, Informative)
Anyone know what resolutions the various DBS broadcasters use?
Re:Tivo capture resolution (Score:3, Informative)
Well, try capture at 32khz and 44.1khz. You *will* notice a difference.
Re:TiVo software is inflexible (Score:3, Informative)
1) You can select to record programs by searching by name, but it only searched within a limited horizon of programming (the week or so for which it has the guide). If not found, it can be recorded. For example, you couldn't ask it to record "Mission to Mars" whenever it comes on next.
Sure you can. "Pick programs to record", "Search using wishlists", "Create a new wishlist", "Title Wishlist". You can even use wildcards. Record all movies that match "*mars*" and it will do it.
2) You can't ask it to record programs matching criteria like a particular actor, or keyword in title etc.
From the main menu, pick "Pick programs to Record" then "Search using Wishlists". You can choose programs by Actor, Director, Category, Keyword or Title.
3) Once a program has been selected for recording, you can't change the record quality without cancelling it, finding it again via search, channel guide or whatever, and re-selecting to record it.
"Pick Programs to Record", "To do list". Choose your program, then "Cancel/Edit the Season Pass", "Change recording options". In there you get the settings "Record Quality", "Keep at most", "Show Type", "Keep until", etc...
4) It takes 2-4 hours to process and index the program guide after making a call to TiVo! (what on earth is it doing?)
You fail to mention that it only does this ONCE, when you first buy it. It's not like you'll ever see it again. (and it's generating indexes for all those ways you can search for programs - much much better than downloading extra data over analog modem lines)
6) If you have a partial recording of something that you are also currently recording, it doesn't distinguish between the two - so you can delete the partial until the current recording it complete
I couldn't parse this sentence at all... Could you rephrase?
If you have a Comcast General Instrument cable box, the supplied infrared blasters for channel changing are not strong enough and you'll have to but better ones (for ~$30).
Hrm, I couldn't find any mention of this on the tivo forums... I've got the GI DCT box myself, and haven't had a problem.
You sure you don't work for ReplayTV or something?
MPEG2 (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Hardware Codec... (Score:2, Informative)
It's like saying that the future of online music is uncompressed PCM audio streams.
Re:ReplayTV Is Higher Quality (Score:1, Informative)
You can pay for a lifetime subscription for the life of the TiVo box, instead of paying a monthly subscription. This means that usually, a TiVo box + lifetime sub = is equal in price to a comparable Replay box, because Replay bundles the cost of subsciption into the upfront retail price of the box. This is not always true, now, of course, in that one can pick up the discontinued Replay and Dishplayer boxes for low prices, if one knows where to look.
As to picture quality, TiVo gives you four levels of quality, Replay gives you three, and most reviewers I read found that the highest picture quality level was better on TiVo than on Replay, or else too close to call. Also, Replay downgrades the audio quality at the lower levels of resolution, unlike TiVo, so most reviewers also found TiVo audio to be superior to Replay.
But all that is irrelevent, since the quality differences between the two are very minor: what really matters is the software interface which allows one to record what one wants, and on that score, TiVo blows Replay away. Replay software functions like it was designed by the same techies who put together the VCR; TiVo, on the other hand, breaks the VCR paradigm and creates something new, which will set the standard for the PVR paradigm for years to come.
$100 or $200 rebates on Sony TiVo! (Score:3, Informative)
You can download the rebate form here in
http://www.jandr.com/images/pdf/rebates/SON9_20
Re:I want non-subscribtion DirectTV/TIVO (Score:2, Informative)
Tivo Lifetime subscription info at tivofaq.com [tivofaq.com]
Dish PVR Comments (Score:2, Informative)
I am not any sort of videophile, but the picture quality appears to be exactly what you get when you watch something live off the satellite, and the controls and on-screen menu system are excellent. It would be nice though, if it would hide the title of rating locked recordings from the playback menu. This could save you from embarrasing questions asked by your 8 year old.
My only major complaint with the system is that when I first got it, I always left it on. After a few weeks, it began to flake out badly. Channels would often suddenly pixellate, the audio would develop static, and every morning the system would force you to download 'program information' and lock up afterwords. The only way to fix it was to 'reset' the unit by removing and replacing the smart card.
After several rounds of this, we called their tech support and they told us to turn it off at night, so it could 'rest' (I'm NOT kidding). Deciding to play dumb consumer, I do this faithfully now, and the unit has since worked fine. My observation is that the unit is not always off even when it appears to be. You can still hear the drive spinning. I assume it runs some sort of maintenance disk check or something late at night. It also seems to periodically download software updates, noticeable only when the menus change.
Contrary to some reports I read about the Tivo, the Dish PVR record time seems to be quite steady. I get exactly 30 hours of recording, no matter what type of material I'm watching.
One final observation I have is the price of the remote control. You can only use the special remote that comes with the unit. After my two year old tossed this in the toilet, we had to order a replacement at the outrageous price of $60.
Despite a few flaws, the Dish PVR works out quite well. I use it extensively to record shows I would otherwise miss, and I rarely use my VCR any more.
- Necron69
pvrcompare.com (Score:2, Informative)
Quality by Show (Score:2, Informative)
-Steve
Re:Dishnetwork, Linux and Satellite? (Score:4, Informative)
They almost did. A while back, any Gateway system came with some DishNetworks coupons. Why? Well at the time, they were working togther to bring Dish service to the Destination systems. The deal fell through, a few cards were made by Adaptec, and not much came of it.
That card on Happauge looks interesting. My biggest hurdle was the Nagravision Dish uses, but aparently that card supports it now. If only the links wern't broken on that page...
Re:Tivo capture resolution (Score:3, Informative)
Hey, leave me outta this!
Seriously, if you are getting artifacts at 44.1khz that you aren't getting at 32khz, there's something wrong with your codec setup (ie, its Xing/Audiograbber/etc.)
Previous poster's comment at 32khz being the absolute lowest for 16khz is correct, in fact 32khz won't even do 16khz properly b/c you need a lowpass filter to prevent anti-aliasing. So, all of this is to say that 32khz on a PVR is IMHO sub-par.
Here is what they are... (Score:4, Informative)
Ones for Digital Satellite Systems (They record the bit stream directly from the satellite without an analog to digital encoding process), and those for other systems (They convert analog TV into a digital MPEG stream and store it on disk).
To understand satellite systems. Incoming signals are buffered off the hard drive. (Long discussion about MPEG multicasting not gone into here, but the hard drive allows a longer error buffer to catch out of sequence key frames). You can then watch that stream or another stream off the hard drive. This allows you to watch a recorded show and record at the same time. But you cannot watch live and record something else.
DISH SYSTEM
Two Basic Systems
Dishplayer/WebTV (7100 and 7200)
The software for these were created by a division of microsoft. (Based on a unix core!).
They basically record the bitstream to disk. They have a very nice UI compared to other dish recievers. They have a 7 day guide, and support searching. (The searching is not as deep or complete as TIVO's searching).
They also have games (DOOM, You don't know jack, and solitare).
They also can be used as webtv terminals (though the software for webtv is a generation behind standalone webtv boxes).
The devices are somewhat hackable. You can put much larger drives in than came stock.
The software is buggy. Much more buggy than UltimateTV which uses alot of the same code as Dishplayer.
Dish Network and Microsoft have never been able to get the software update process smooth between them.
DISH PVR 501.
This is a Dish Product that is based on OpenTV and the software is written in house.
It has no search function, and has been recently upgraded to support a 9 day guide.
There are NO additional monthly subscription fees with the box.
DISH PVR 721 Next generation box due out early next year. Number one feature is to record more than one channel at a time. And to watch something live, and record at the same time.
NO monthly subscription fees.
DIRECT TV
Two basic choices.
Ultimate TV By Microsoft. Similar to Dishplayer, but able to record two streams simultaneously. A LOT less buggy than Dishplayer.
10 a month fee to use PVR.
DirectTivo
Same UI as regular Tivo, but records bitstream directly, and recently upgraded to record two streams simultaneously.
10 a month fee to use PVR
NON Satellite
TIVO
Replay
Re:ATI software is the weak link in a roll-your-ow (Score:3, Informative)
Also, I've heard that their add-on boards and external TV Wonder products can be flaky, which makes sense since they're not integrated with the display and in some cases use the USB bus to transfer video data which is obviously not optimal. But running on 2k/XP with MultiMedia Center 7.2 and a real, full All-in-Wonder, I foresee no stability problems at all, since I'm doing just that right now on my regular PC with no issues.
As an aside--go to ati.com and look at their new All-in-Wonder Radeon 8500 DV, and at the preview on Tom's Hardware. My god, that card's a monster, the remote looks perfect, and if it runs under XP as stably as my All-in-Wonder 128 does then it's perfect for a DVR project.
Re:DishPVR (Score:2, Informative)
Fortunately http://www.americansatellite.com/ [americansatellite.com] has a return/trade-in policy that runs for a month or so. I was able to trade it in for a DirecTiVO unit. I went with the Sony SAT-T60. It cost me an extra $100 due to unit price differences (other TiVO units were the same price as the UTV, Sony is just pricier), but ASE covered the shipping charges for the replacement and the return. (Yes, this is a shameless plug because I've been very happy with their service and support.)
Aside from the M$ based unit losing everything when it crashed, both units had about the same picture quality.
I typically got about 16-20 hours recording time with both TiVO and UTV, despite the claims of "up to 30 hours."
The TiVO units let you start recordings 5 minutes early; the UTV only lets you extend recording time. A lot of channels up there don't start at exactly the time they say in the listings, so you can lose the opening moments with the UTV.
TiVO lets you record by time/channel as well as through the guide. If you know the guide is wrong (often the case for local channels), you can "force" the TiVO to record the channel/time you want. The UTV doesn't support that feature.
There were other little nicities I noticed with the TiVO, but I don't remember them offhand (it's been a few months.)
Personally I'd never recommend a UTV unit to anyone. Aside from the crash, there are just too many little functionality tweaks to the TiVO that leave the UTV a so-so imitation instead of a true competitor.
Re:Something else to think about... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:This highlights the quality issue... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:This highlights the quality issue... (Score:2, Informative)
My $0.02 on Dish's PVR & TiVo (Score:3, Informative)
When we moved out of the apartment and into a house, we had a DishNetwork dish installed (I'd been a satisfied customer of theirs in the past, which is why I went with them over DirecTV), and went for the deal with one of their PVR boxes. So, we have one of each now, and I think I can provide an objective analysis from the perspective of an existing TiVo owner.
On the whole, we're disappointed with DishNetwork PVR. Yes, it records at full quality, and the PVR unit (unlike the cheaper decoder we hooked the TiVo up to) has an optical digital audio output (note, though, that DishNetwork currently only sends AC3 on pay-per-view programs, AFAIK). So, those are some obvious perks to the cheap box/TiVo combination. However, that's pretty much where the line is drawn.
My biggest gripe about the PVR is that mine is unstable (DishNetwork offered to swap it for another, but I've been waiting until after the holidays to ship it back). The software is also amateurish compared to TiVo. It has no concept of anything like TiVo's "season pass" or "suggestions," no program data beyond roughly two days, the playing interface is horrid (it's impossible to tell where you are in a recorded program). The unit is also considerably noisier, though it does spin the hard drive down when inactive (which my TiVo doesn't do, since it's *never* inactive).
Just so I can say that I haven't knocked the PVR completely, it does have a couple of goodies over TiVo. Namely, it has a 30-second skip button, and it has slightly more storage than my 30-hour Sony-branded TiVo (about 35 hours, to be exact). Also, the PVR is cheaper, overall. I pay $10/month for it, and I didn't have to buy the box. After I got finished paying for my TiVo and the lifetime programming subscription, I'd forked over $400 (it's more now).
In other words, the PVR is really just a glorified digital VCR, and probably should be considered a first generation unit (which I guess promotes TiVo to second generation?!?).
On a somewhat-related note, the new DishNetwork boxes have no serial remote control port. I was rather disappointed when I discovered I'd still have to use the IR blaster on my TiVo. However, with my custom-made "fort," I rarely encounter problems with TiVo changing the channel properly.
-Scott
Re:If you care about digital audio, no choices (Score:2, Informative)
Umm, he's not talking about DishPlayer, he's talking about Dish PVR, which is completely different from the DishPlayer. I have the DishPlayer, and it's essentially Microsoft UltimateTV before they decided to sell it themselves, and agree that TiVo software is much better that that. However, the new Dish PVR uses completely different software developed by the Dish Network, and there is no monthly service fee for this PVR, unlike Tivo/DirecTivo, or my DishPlayer. The fact that you don't have to pay for the PVR service alone is a big bonus in my opinion.
Re:ATI software is the weak link in a roll-your-ow (Score:1, Informative)