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Handhelds Hardware

PDA Wars: HP Strikes Back With New Jornadas 110

Posted by Hemos
from the battle-to-the-death dept.
wbav writes "According to this article on cnn HP has anounced that they are releasing two new models. At 6 ounces it sports a 203 mhz processor and 32 or 64 megs of ram depending on the model. It comes with Pocket PC 2002, and support for VPNs. Very nice." I do wonder what will happen to the Jornada, given the HP purchase of Compaq - my understanding is that the iPaq has kicked far more butt then the Jornada.
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PDA Wars: HP Strikes Back With New Jornadas

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  • iPaq Vs Jordana (Score:3, Interesting)

    by hooded1 (89250) on Friday September 07, 2001 @09:55PM (#2266082) Homepage
    I believe the main reason why the iPaq has been so much more successful than other Pocket PCs is because it has been the first one to take advantage of the strong arm technology. It also sports a pretty cool case. Although the PC Card expansion sleave is a bit clunky it allows for wireless PCMCIA cards. Wireless LAN access is of course ideal for a PDA. I am very interested to see what HP will do with the iPaq ideally they will combine it the the best aspects of the Jordana.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      I met with one of HP's top bus dev guy, and he told me that before they can introduce a product like the Jornada, they already have to have an exit plan for the Product that's less than two years out. So they already plan for the product to be discontinued. I think that was interesting. We were talking about the Jornada and flat panel computers.
    • ...but I think the super-dope screen is the biggest selling point for many people.
  • They seem to be pointing out the Increase in clock speed? (amongst other improvements)

    Oh, god, here we go again.

    I suppose they are going to sue VIA for *not* making chipsets for them.

    Moose.
    • It does serve a purpose here. If they had said they were switching from the SH3 to the StrongARM it would be unclear how this PDA compares to other StrongARM-based PDA's. You're right in that it doesn't give you a direct comparison, but it allows you to make a more accurate comparison among other PocketPC PDA's (ignoring any speed improvents/decreases that might come in this new version).

      -Sean
  • by NickV (30252)
    Hey, I love my iPaq, but I run intimate Linux on it [handhelds.org], and not PocketPC 2002, 2001, etc... (Something about being able to apt-get on a pda is really damn cool.)

    The question is, Compaq is decidely pro-Linux, moreso than even Big Blue, but will we start seeing HP support Linux ports to the Jornada series? I LOVE the Jornada form factor, and it would be great if they did!
  • What will happen? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by NitsujTPU (19263) on Friday September 07, 2001 @10:27PM (#2266101)
    Most likely, whichever platform is superior will be marketted as the jordana or some new name.

    Does HP plan to continue using the Compaq brandname? There's the chance that they may want names like iPaq (even though iPuke when iHear iPrefixed too many freaking iTimes).

    Or they may attempt to steal features from both, not necessarilly on a technical level (since incompatibilities may arise, but I haven't studied the particulars close enough to comment on that), but icons, trademarks, interface features, so on.
    • i'm suprised apple hasn't sued compaq for using i infront of PAQ :-)
    • Maybe this is the iPaq repackaged under the HP logo. If not, then it is an effort by the PDA division at HP to stay alive in the face of the Compaq acquisition. For those guys it's either make a big splash now or put in for a transfer to the printing division.
  • iPaq vs Journada (Score:4, Interesting)

    by camusflage (65105) on Friday September 07, 2001 @10:28PM (#2266103)
    Compaq has been mopping up vs HP in PocketPC sales. HP took the hit a while ago with the high color screens that really only did 4096 colors. Given the recent merger, and the shareholder doubts surrounding it, one has to wonder how this will play out in product introductions from each, and whether this is or is not good for Casio, the Number 3 in the PocketPC race.

    Don't underestimate the speed to market aspect in handhelds. When Palm announced, but couldn't deliver on, the new models, they dealt themselves a mighty blow. Given the speed of change in handhelds, marketing, technology, and manufacturing all have to be singing off the same page to ensure market success.
    • HP took the hit a while ago with the high color screens that really only did 4096 colors.

      From what I understand, the new Jornadas have 16-bit color, while the iPaq (like the older Jornadas) has 12-bit (4096 colors).

      Web Comics and MPEGs look fine on my iPaq, but photos have a decidedly nasty look to them.

      My understanding of the iPaq's success stemmed mostly from the power of the machine (it was equipped with the fastest processor of the bunch), and the exapndability. I haven't heavily researched the Jornada, but the iPaq has a PCMCIA expansion jacket available. WLAN sold a lot of people on these units.
  • my understanding is that the iPaq has kicked far more butt then the Jornada.

    Thats probably because they can be upgraded..

    Both in Operating system [compaqordercenter.com] and Memory [ipaqupgrade.com].

  • Jornada and Compaq (Score:4, Informative)

    by jsse (254124) on Friday September 07, 2001 @10:46PM (#2266147) Homepage Journal
    I do wonder what will happen to the Jornada, given the HP purchase of Compaq - my understanding is that the iPaq has kicked far more butt then the Jornada.

    Yes Jornada's kicks, but the success of iPaq tells us a company's marketing and supporting is also very important.

    I know many people who are going to develop apps for iPaq have the common happy experience - Compaq is being very supportive in development, martketing and financing when you shows your intention to develop for iPaq.

    Compaq will take every opportunities to promote your apps(even in pre-alpha stage) in every trade show and even invite you to their promotional events if possible. If your apps is good enough Compaq even help you line up VCs for you to start a new company! That's some kind of convenience that couldn't be found in developing apps in other handheld devices.

    It's no harm in having two lines of similar products, but to ensure the success Jornada HP must put their entire Jornada's team under iPaq's. Really, you can hardly find any other line of business more supportive than iPaq's. :)
  • Let's take a review of the timeline:

    The iPaq and Journada fight in the marketplace.
    The iPaq trounces the Journada.
    HP buys Compaq.
    HP has to struggle with reconciling their own product lines and bring them into one company.

    This is the first example. HP has bought Compaq, but the iPaq is cooler. They can't call it the iHP or anything, can they? Bob Cringely [pbs.org] made some remarks about just this sort of thing in his latest column. This merger makes no sense at all. HP and Compaq have already bought out companies that helped their bottom line, and now they're doing it again. Unless HP does some seriously insane reorganization, their chances of doing anything signifigant are pretty small.

    • Your numbers are off, sonny. iPaqs maybe favored by geeks, but HP Jordanas outsold both Compaq and Casio combined. HP accounted for just over 6% of all PDA sales, versus Q's ~3%.

      -bZj
      • Your numbers are off, sonny. iPaqs maybe favored by geeks, but HP Jordanas outsold both Compaq and Casio combined. HP accounted for just over 6% of all PDA sales, versus Q's ~3%.

        I just want to question your number a little bit. Do your figures take into account the following:

        • The Journada name includes more than one class of devices, only part of which includes the PDA device that competes directly with the PDA version of the iPAQ. Are we comparing apples to apples?
        • I believe the Journada PDA was on the market first. Are we comparing during a time period where both devices were on the market?
        • Last year, the iPAQ had a much better display than the Journada. However, problems with manufacturing the display screens caused a serious holdup in the production of color iPAQs. Because of this, you quite literally could not get the device for several months. I know this because the company I work for had a high-profile relationship with Compaq with regards to the iPAQ. During this time, even we could not get all the devices we wanted. Maybe we shouldn't take this into account, but since Compaq had a higher demand than supply doesn't that suggest something?
        • You've definitely got a point there. I got my Jornada 548 because it was the best thing available at the time (the Casio is too big & clunky, IMHO). If I could have waited, or if the iPaq had been out at the time, I probably would have bought it instead.

          Ever since the iPaqs have become popular, I've been feeling a bit jealous. But now that this new Jornada is coming, I'd much rather have it than an iPaq. The New Jornada's styling and ergonomics look perfect to me, much better than the iPaq's StarTrek prop/shiny toy look. (And the J.560 apparently still has hinges for an optional lid; important for clumsy slackers like me!) Plus, the specs are finally up to par with the iPaq as well.

          I really hope that HP doesn't drop this product before it has a chance; I think that this could well be the one true PocketPC that works for nearly everyone.
    • the paq could stand for packard? ;)
  • Compaq's iPaq is a completely different concept to the Jornada. An iPaq is a PDA. A palm style address book, calendar, appointment system. Basically, they have absolutely no real value or use, especially in a commercial application.

    We develop [hatfields.com.au] sales automation tools for handheld pcs. we couldn't do that on a PDA. there is no keyboard. how can a sales person lookup a customer / part, or enter an invoice / order with a stylus touch pad. answer, you can't you need a keyboard. this is why the Jornada will be more successful and last longer than the "traditional" palm, handspring and iPaq style PDAs / handhelds. it has last and, more importantly, commercial use.
    • The article, if you had bothered to actually read it, is referring to the PDA versions of the Joornadas, not the HPC versions. The 54x series, as well as the new 56x series do not have keybaords, and look like any other PocketPC PDA.

      -bZj
    • So the Jornada will be successful because it has a keyboard ? Ummm, the iPaq has a keyboard available for it, and has done so for quite some time. The iPaq can also handle network connectivity and store large amounts of data at the same time. The Jornada can either have network connectivity or have local data not both. Now I think having both is far more useful, plus you can plug in the keyboard the same as the Jornada. Seems the iPaq is much more usefull in a commerical situation.
    • We develop sales automation tools for handheld pcs. we couldn't do that on a PDA. there is no keyboard. how can a sales person lookup a customer / part, or enter an invoice / order with a stylus touch pad. answer, you can't you need a keyboard.

      I disagree. Sales should have next to zero use for a keyboard. Product lines, customers, price lists... should all be selectable WITHOUT a keyboard. We're [benshaw.com] designing internal applications for our sales force using Palm PDAs. The sales force will have a PDA and a portable DVD player.

      Product demo videos will be on the DVD players and they can give out CDs with documentation and other goodies. The Palm handlelds will have a few apps for quoting and the standard email, time tracking, contact management and datebook applications available.

      We used to give them laptops which had to be upgraded every year or so, were prime targets for theft, crashed and were generally used to play games instead of sell. Now we're replacing them for less money, less space and 10x the effectiveness. Throw in a folding keyboard for writing[1] faxes/emails and a modem and they have everything they need.

      [1] - yes, the odd time a keyboard is needed but it's very infrequent.

    • You sure are a confused one, aren't you?
    • ...sales automation tools for handheld pcs. we couldn't do that on a PDA. there is no keyboard. how can a sales person lookup a customer / part, or enter an invoice / order with a stylus touch pad. answer, you can't...


      Umm. I don't see the logic here. We developed an in-house version of our mobile sales automation tools specifically FOR the iPAQ. The touch pad keypad works fine for most of the data entry that needs to be done. Remember that when entering an invoice or something, you should never need to type the customer's name and address in -- that should have all been downloaded from your primary computer system, where somebody presumable used a traditional compute to enter the "busy" information months ago when your customer was just a prospect. Besides, if you need a keyboard for the iPAQ, just buy one.

  • by Stir (446728) on Friday September 07, 2001 @10:55PM (#2266164) Homepage
    The Viewpad [viewsonic.com]

    Not as cumbersome as a laptop, but larger than a iPaq or Jornada, which makes it ideal for me.
    • The Series 5mx [psionusa.com].

      The Netbook [psionusa.com]

      Note that both of them fold up into Very Small Packages. Both have keyboards and touchscreens. And both have MSWord-compatible software, plus EMail, web browsing, and the full set of organizer/PDA software that you'd expect.

      And both have battery lives that make them truly useful.

      These things are the nearest incarnation of the Perfect Computing Device that I've yet seen. They combine the right amounts of practicality (ie. wordprocessing, email, browsing, and organizer) with the right amount of size (damn small for the 5mx, very small for the Netbook) with the right amount of battery life (ie. a full day).

      Now if only Psion would pull its head out of its ass and market the things!
  • x25? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 07, 2001 @10:59PM (#2266167)
    I recently (some weeks before the HP/Compaq merger was announced) had the chance to check out a prototype Jordana that's in testing at the moment.

    Unlike the model mentioned here, the unit I saw, labelled X25, was a lower-end PDA aimed squarely at college students, as evidenced by the glossy made-up "consumer profiles" supplied to the testers.

    The unit is slim, has a crisp monochrome screen, a and hardware MP3 decoder. Best of all ppl, the OS is Linux, though the UI and apps are all Java. It runs pretty nicely, looks cool, and is likely to be very cheap!

    It's not based on the ipaq at all though, so it will be interesting to see just how a parallel Linux-based PDA project however meritorious will survive in the brave new "synergized" HP/Compaq world...

    • Re:x25? (Score:2, Informative)

      by CurlyG (8268)

      More info in HP's Linux/Java platform can be found here [linuxdevices.com], and here [hp.com].

      It goes some way to addressing the doubts of cynics (like me) about the real-world usefulness of Java for anything other than a CS-graduate-existence-justification tool.


  • Neatly disguised as a trumpet case, with a real CRT monitor to boot. And interchangeable storage device (aka tape drive). Still has the best games too.
  • "Pocket PC 2002 is also optimized for the enterprise, with support for VPNs (virtual private networks) and terminal server clients, she said. The operating system also allows Pocket PC users to easily "beam" information to users of Palm Inc.'s operating system through the infrared port." When I upgrade I will still be able to pass info to co-workers and friends with out a whole lotta of hasle. Glad to see them persuing that. Are there other handhelds that will do this?
  • I don't know where people are getting their numbers from on this one. HP's Jornada has outsold Compaq by almost double in the PDA department. iPaqs may be a favorite among geeks, but we all know the world isn't like the Slashdot faithful. HP has acounted for 4% of all PDA sales this year, versus Q's 2.2%.
    LINK: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/18847.html [theregister.co.uk]

    iPaqs cost too much to kick anybody's butt in the PDA market. I'll be upgrading my 548 to a 568 in the coming year - long live the Jornada!

    -bZj
    • You need to learn how to read, son.

      The chart you linked to shows Compaq with 11.9% of Q1 2001 vs HP's 4.1% of Q1 2001. The number you keep quoting was Q1 2000. Year to Year, # of Units sold in Western Europe was 8,978 units for Q1 2000 for Compaq and 100,362 units for Q1 2001. In contrast, HP accounted for 16,514 units for Q1 2000 and 34,210 units for Q1 2001. That's 109,340 units for Compaq in the two compared Quarters, and 50,724 for HP. In short, Compaq has shipped more than twice as many units as HP has in the same compared periods.
    • I think you are quoting the old numbers from Q1 2000. By Q1 2001, it's a completely different story...

      Western Europe's mobile device market:

      Q1 2000 share:
      Compaq 2.2%
      HP 4.0%

      Q1 2001 share
      Compaq 11.9%
      HP 4.1%

    • Recently Compaq announced that it shipped million'th iPaq. Around the same time Microsoft announced that it shipped million'th version of PocketPC. This have to tell something about success of HP's Jornadas...
  • I was reading through what PowerPC 2002 was offering and it kept reminding me "Palm already had that for some time.... Palm offers that now... Palm has it already..." Geesh. And to think Microsoft itself with Windows is slowly becoming Unix back in 1970!!!
    • And when did Palm get color?

      And when did Palm get actual, full-desktop VPN?

      And when did Palm get instant messaging?

      Adn when did Palm get wireless LAN?

      You can't compare PalmOS to PocketPC. They serve different purposes. PocketPC is meant as a replacement for a laptop in the cases where a laptop would be an overkill. PalmOS is meant to be a PDA [meaning a contact list/organizer] only.

      -bZj
      • They serve different purposes. PocketPC is meant as a replacement for a laptop in the cases where a laptop would be an overkill. PalmOS is meant to be a PDA [meaning a contact list/organizer] only.

        It's true that they serve different purposes, but it is not simply PIM vs computer.

        The original PalmOS was designed for PIM *and* any other programs people could think of that could run on a monochrome 160x160 touch-screen computer (more recent versions of PalmOS also support color and higher resolution screens).

        There have been databases, spreadsheets, word processors, offline browsers, games, RPN calculators, etc... for the Palm platform for years. Palm is a real computer. Sure, both platforms have their strengths and weaknesses, but dismissing Palm as nothing more than an organizer is even worse than saying that PowerPC [sic] 2002 == Palm III, OS 3.1 (which it isn't).

        The new HPs look pretty cool, but personally, I'll stick with my Sony Clie N610C. It was a little over half the cost of the new HPs, has a higher resolution screen, is smaller/lighter, and the real-world battery life with backlighting is as good as HP's advertised battery life without backlighting.

        My only request... that Sony puts a 480x320 screen on it :-)

    • I was reading through what PowerPC 2002 was offering and it kept reminding me "Palm already had that for some time.... Palm offers that now... Palm has it already..." Geesh. And to think Microsoft itself with Windows is slowly becoming Unix back in 1970!!!

      Oh really? I have a Palm VII that I bought to evaluate the company. I really don't see a great deal there. The lack of an earphone socket and a compactflash port was particularly lame.

      Sure you can now get PalmOS devices from other manufacturers that arn't as lame. But I don't see PalmOS being arroung much longer unless their own hardware catches up.

  • Hp's suck (Score:1, Flamebait)

    by sandman665 (139247)
    I use one at work. It blows. The screen is completely unreadable in any light but florescent. It is also slow as hell and not very upgradeable (no wireless lan for me). Then again, one of the biggest problems I have found is that the os just plain sucks. Microsoft has no clue how to design an os for a handheld; the entire thing should be in the interface hall fo shame. Apple really needs to release a handheld so that Microsoft can at least try to copy something useful.
  • Compaq sold me hardware (ipaq) and the freedom [handhelds.org] to use what software I wanted. I bought a physical device.

    HP sold me an "HP/C handheld" (jornada 720). To date, after 8 months of effort, no one from HP will provide any kind of support (flashroms? no - although HP Singapore engineers have such modified 720's; hardware info - none) for the jornada. Buying the jornada based on HP's past excellent support of their calculators (yes I know, different division entirely) and HP 200 'palmtops' was quite a mistake. The jornada is technically a great device but practically useless to me (read, "MS only")

    I sincerely hope the HP/Compaq merger does not go through.
    • These aren't meant to be PCs. They are special purpose appliances. You buy into their specifications beforehand, it's not like they tricked you. Yes, Linux can be ported to a telephone or a refridgerator, but who cares? I prefer to just have it work as intended.

      As for support, I've never had to call them, so it is sad to hear that they weren't as useful as you'd hoped.

      -bZj
      • What they "are" is my point. In broadest terms, they are objects. That is what I bought.

        If I go to the grocers and buy a tomato, I have the freedom to do what I wish with this "object"... I'm not limited by any bundled cookbook that stipulates what I may and may not do with said tomato.

        The grocer also will tell me all sorts of information when queried. They're free to sell it without any strings being placed on them by the farmer/co-op/distributor whom they bought it from.

        A washing machine is meant to be a device to clean clothing but when purchased, you own it. If you contact the manufacturer, they will provide information regarding its motor which chould then be used to construct a cheap lathe if you want to.

        My point is I resent being locked into 'wince only' and having absolutely no option/information to enable me to change that... it is hardware that I bought and they're 'bundling' software.

        At least with the iPAQ, there is no such 'locked in bundle'. The means and information is available to change it's o/s.

        Is this illegal, obviously not. But as a consumer, it saddens me to see how 'consumer rights' are virtually non-existant and never discussed. I work for a manufacturing company (not a thing to do with computers or dot-coms) and if we ever treated our customers with the same level of 'service' and 'quality' as many computer companies do, we would be long out of business. However this seems to be the de-facto, unquestioned standard in this industry (except for FSF maybe).

        Sad.

  • Offtopic, but I would have thought computer geeks would know THAN most about the correct usage of 'then' and 'than', given the logical expression 'IF this THEN do that..' that is used

    Makes me wonder how many mistakes people write when coding...

    IF a = 2 THAN b = 3
    Syntax error
    Huh? What's wrong with that?

  • Im really just trying to find a replacement for the Toshiba Libretto [aol.com]. After Toshiba stopped making the palm top, the only real choice people had was PDAs. I really need a wireless device, If I only wanted a calendar or contact list, I have PocketNet [attws.com] phone with Fonesync [attws.com] software. But I needed a true wireless connection with a tcp/ip stack(for SSH) so I picked up a CDPD modem [sierrawireless.com]. But carrying around a full size laptop sucks, so I migrated to a PDA. I first started off with an wireless Palm Omnisky [omnisky.com]. Battery life was nice, upto 1 week light use, and 2 weeks if it sat im my pocket. But I wanted color and sound, I migrated to the PocketPC [sierrawireless.com] (Ipaq) and CDPD modem [sierrawireless.com]. Not bad, I can surf websites in html not wap, and even listen to mp3s. (Very important for work ya know!) Battery life is weak, and I find myself letting the battery die right when I need. Picked up a IBM Microdrive [ibm.com]. Fast, was able to move documents from my laptop and back, neat idea, but didnt use it as much I wanted. I gotta get around to trying out the Pocket Divx Player [adelphia.net] and put a divx movie on the microdrive. (Gotta watch Red Dwarf ep with the Sock Puppet.)

    Heck, They even have PDA pr0n [pocket-xxx.com] for those long boring conference calls. :)

    • Take a look at the Libretto L2....it runs a Transmeta chip now:

      http://www.dynamism.com/libretto/main.shtml

      8mb of on-chip video RAM, 256mb (standard 128mb) RAM, and a 30gb (standard 10gb) HDD. It is also the first-ever Libretto to have an integrated ethernet port. The TFT used in the Libretto is absolutely fantastic. Transmeta's 600mhz Crusoe processor powers the machine but enables it to achieve 4.5 hours (2.5-3 hours real life) run-time on the standard battery--and, a whopping 14 hours (9-10 hours real life) run-time on the enhanced battery.

  • Linuette (Score:3, Informative)

    by SurfsUp (11523) on Saturday September 08, 2001 @01:40AM (#2266419)
    Pretty, very pretty [linuxdevices.com]

    206 MHz StrongARM SA-1110

    32MB DRAM

    32MB Flash

    240 x 320 pixel, 4096-color

    USB, serial, Ethernet

    Linux

  • These devices are technically superior to the existing Ipaq. In an internal company shootout, the technically superior device will win.

    So the new HP will only sell the new Jornadas. Which will then succeed.

    It's a pity, because I prefer the style of the Ipaq. Of course, more memory is always better.
  • it's spelled than, not then... sorry, just a pet peev :).
  • What ever happened to the Vadem Clio AKA sharp tripad [zdnet.com] ?
    I think that with linux it would kick a$$
    The touch sensitive screen rotates on two hinges
    allowing for normal laptop or tablet use.
    It then flips over to safely and completely close it.
    Hidden nicely beneath this cool screen is a complete keyboard too.

    c'mon I want more support for that one!!!
    (course for the last 2 years I have heard very little)

Real Users find the one combination of bizarre input values that shuts down the system for days.

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