Lawsuit Alleges That Palms Damage Motherboards

schussat writes: "This brief AP article describes a lawsuit that alleges that syncing a Palm Pilot "damages or destroys the motherboards on certain PC brands." Does anyone know more or have experience with this? Is it even possible to cause damage? The article is not very detailed."

Have at you!

[GregGaub]

All right, people, here we go. For those who obviously only skimmed my article (not the one about the lawsuit, which I am NOT a part of), please go read it again, and pay attention to the facts, not the hyperbole. For everyone else who is making ASSumptions based on their own (non) experience, here are the facts again:

1) The cradle was ALREADY plugged into the port, and had been for several months. In case you don't understand what that means, it means I was NOT plugging the cradle into the port when this happened, alright?

2) serial ports, as I understand them, are NOT designed to be hot-swapped safely. This is why any device that connects to a serial port (or anything other than USB for that matter) tells you specifically to turn OFF the computer before plugging it in. Sure, serial ports can take certain amounts of current, but obviously not as much as the ESD (electro-static discharge, yes?)

3) the Palm IS designed to be hot-swapped into and out of its cradle on a regular and ongoing basis. Again, I'm NOT talking about the cradle and the port, I'm talking about the Palm and the cradle! The Palm, and in this case a PalmV, is designed to be connected and disconnected repetitively and daily.

4) I'm not an idiot or a moron. I would NEVER touch exposed electronics, or even plug devices into my computer while it's on. I know all about static and how it can damage computers. What I didn't know (and I do now, so you can all STFU about it!) was that the cradle and/or mobo is NOT protected against the ESD that happens when I put the palm into the cradle.

5) As I stated in my article, I walked across the room, dropped the palm into the cradle, and my computer died with a pop and a smell of burnt electronics.

6) I'll concede that the damaged UART might have been from something OTHER than just the ESD, but the sequence of events is so apparent that anyone in the room when it happened would almost certainly agree that the ESD is what caused, or at least was the catalys for, the damage pictured in my article. You might call me a damnass for not grounding myself, but you would agree with me about what actually happened.

7) I was, and still am a little, pissed about the whole thing, but I am NOT looking for a lawsuit, and certainly have nothing to do with the one being filed in Cali. Will I sign on if it goes class action? Yes. But not because I want a chunk of money. I would join because I want Palm to fix a design that they KNOW facilitates damage to computers.

8) I wrote my article to spread the word about how the PalmV (and others, possibly) connected to a serial port can damage the computer through normal usage. I didn't write it to be called a moron by all the holier-than-thou geeks on the internet, but that's sure as heck what I got, and I'm getting it all over again because of this lawsuit. Again, you can all STFU about it, ok?

I fully expect even more repetitive flames from people, telling me I'm a moron, that it's the mobo maker that's to blame, that it's my house's wiring, or anything else other than the probability that Palm decided that the risks of their cradle killing a certain percentage of people's computers didn't outweigh the cost of redesigning the cradle with it's own optical coupler to prevent ESD to the serial port. I'll certainly also get supportive e-mail as I did before, because guess what? THIS IS NOT AN UNCOMMON OR ISOLATED INCIDENT! It's just that most people take the punches Palm throws and never complain, because they're made to believe it was their fault even though it wasn't. With every new report of this problem, all you flamers will jump on it all over again. But, sooner or later, it will be reported enough for enough people to believe it that the problem will be fixed.

For now, PalmV users have three choices:

1) get the USB adapter and plug the cradle into that.
2) get a serial port surge protector (link at the end of my follow-up article)
3) ground yourself before ever going anywhere near your Palm's cradle.

I guess I'm a glutton for punishment, because I'll probably come back to read what drivel you people post in reply to this message. Heck, just posting this was like painting a target on my ass for you people.

Serial Port keeps getting killed on my Laptop

[djb]

I've had the motherboard replaced on my Dell laptop a few times, because the serial port that my Palm V gets plugged into never seems to last more than a month. After which time it only seems to work for two or so minutes at a time.

I've always put this down to the build quality of Dell laptops, I've also had the screen, keyboard, CD writer and battery replaced over the last year and a number of other people have had the same serial port problem in my office.

In the end I gave up and got a USB serial adapter to fix the problem, as I came to the conclusion that the port on my laptop wasn't properly earthed.

Their may be something in this, but I think they should be sueing their motherboard supplier. I ran the Palm V on my old Gateway laptop without problem for over a year.

Dave.

Re:An Ex-Dell Tech Post

[EisPick]

I can't help but wonder, though, whether it's the cradles themselves zapping MOBO's, or whether it's customer misuse

Misuse is probably too strong a word.

I remember buying a cheap mechanical keyboard/monitor switch for some ALR 386 server boxes (this was some time ago, obviously). I found out the hard way that the switchbox was able to generate a sufficient static charge to blow out the keyboard port.

This didn't cost me a motherboard; the ALR motherboards incorporated a fusible link in the keyboard circuit, which absorbed the static charge and blew. It took a soldering iron to fix it, but once this fuse was replaced, the mobo worked fine once again.

As I recall, ALR fixed it under warranty.

Was I at fault for using the cheapo switchbox? Probably (I bought a better one thereafter). Was it "abuse"? Probably not. Had ALR denied me warranty coverage on these grounds, I would have been pretty pissed.

Should other mobo manufacturers be blamed for not similarly insulating their serial ports? Probably. Should the switchbox manufacturer have been expected to fix their design? At the price I paid, probably not. Should I have sued either ALR or the switch manufacturer. Good God, no.

One question...

[JoeShmoe]

Did she plug it in while the computer was running? Assuming of course it isn't a USB cradle which is supposed to be hot-swappable.

Personally, I don't know if the voltages in the serial port are enough to do damage (I think the parallel and video ports are the hot ones) but still, if she's tooling around with a metal-ringed connector with her fat greasy fingers in the back of her computer who knows what she could short out?

Honestly, I look at this claim with as much skepticism as the people who find live maggots in a McDonalds hamburger that just went through frying in a microwave for three minutes.

Besides, even if one Palm cradle was faulty and shorted out something on the motherboard at best Palm is liable to have that single motherboard repaired. Class action status means a bunch of people need to have problems with this and this is the first I've heard of it. Devices have been using the serial/parallel ports since time began, what's so special about Palms?

- JoeShmoe

Did you know....

[Commander Spork]

You can trigger the Palm into the HotSync sequence by licking the connections? I'm serious. It just shorts out two of the pins or something. We used to think this was neat in high school. Relevance? If I could barely feel the current on my tounge, chances are the voltage output was pretty low. I'd say not even up with licking a 9V battery.

Re:Not a very good article

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Quality & Reliability engineer for computer systems at a major manufacturer, I can confirm that while ESD can be a major issue and CAN damage integrated circuits quite easily, I find it EXCEPTIONALLY unlikely that the damage indicated in this photo is from ESD. In order to get bubbling on the surface of the PDIP, you have to a voltage differnce high enough to cause a temperature increase that exceeds the melting point of the PDIP. Human body model or even charged device model ESD in expected ranges should not be capable of doing this. This looks like either a manufacturing defect from the board supplier or the PDIPs power or ground was shorted out.

A true story of multiple motherboard death

[gladiatr]

The motherboard: Tyan dual PII/PIII series motherboard. The palm culprit: Palm Pilot V from 3Com. The damage: fried (literally: burned, cracked and crispy) 65550A UART chipies (you know, the ones that sit right next to the 9-pin serials on an ATX form factor)

Now, for all of those who believe that this sort of thing couldn't _possibly_ happen, this happened 5 times to my dad. He's a good guy, but not terribly adventerous when it comes to computers. The only device he has ever plugged into a serial port since obtaining that system was (gasp) the Palm V cradle. After having the same problem with a replacement cradle (suggested by 3Com) and after 3 motherboards, another call to 3Com put him in touch with a 3Com/Palm engineer who was kind enough to inform my father that there is a design flaw in the electrical interface to the cradle.

For those that haven't seen the design, it involves a wall wart connected directly to the 9-pin RS232 connector--used for recharging the Palm V's battery.

At any rate, the problem is very real. I'm forwarding the URL for the article to my father. Who knows? Perhaps motherboard manufacturers that have replaced large numbers of units should join the class...

Okay - here's the REAL scoop.

[jungwirr]

My ex was a level 2 support agent for Palm. The V and M500 series palms (the ones with integrated rechargable batteries) have an undocumented voltage leak in their charging system that feeds a stray voltage to certain pins in the serial port. If your motherboard does not have shielded serial ports (read: your motherboard was manfactured by cheap bastards - like Dell) your serial port will eventually be fried from said voltage. If you want to prevent this from happening, do not keep your cradle plugged into the wall and to the serial port at the same time. Palm may fix this in newer models - hell, they may have fixed it in the M500 series cradles already - but they sure as hell won't admit to the problem, as it would entail a massive recall of cradles that would further upset their delicate financial position.

This is a general serial port "problem"

[Baki]

Most manuals tell you not to plug/unplug devices on serial ports while the computer is switched on. Of course everyone does it (such as plug/unplug a modem while you're computer is on) but in theory every time you do it there is a chance for damage.

For palmpilots you plug/unplug them all the time by design, which actually is kind of strange and not compatible with the design of the serial port. From this POV it is not so strange to hold Palm liable for bringing such a product on the market (at least without clearly warning for the risk or telling people to only plug/unplug while the computer is shut off).

Of course with the newer USB palms, this is no longer an issue.

Going out on a limb

[jyoull]

OK I'm gonna take a stab at this without knowing the facts of the suit. First some facts then the surprise ending.

1 - RS232 ports can handle a lot more than 5 volts, and ordinarily have circuitry just behind the connector to make things all nice-like.
2 - USB ports are made for hot-swaps, and the connector is unlike any other, so they're probably also not the cause of this complaint.
3 - Some Palm docks (like the one for my V) have to be connected inline between the keyboard and the computer.
4 - Some keyboards lock up when the keyboard is plugged and unplugged, and I've seen some CPUs conk out when this happens under power.
Unfounded conclusion: This is related to someone not knowing what can be plugged/unplugged when the box is powered up, that being the keyboard.
Unfounded conclusion 2: or just some idiot attorney who will believe anything he's told if there's a fee attached to it.

Re:News: broken mother boards get broken more easi

[Lumpy]

rs232 is -12 to +12 volts for representing a 1 and 0 respectively. Rs232 ports can usually handle a surge up to 2X that voltage range without damage and the max232 chip which is normally found in mo-bo's today (or it's cheap chineese copy cousin) can sink a larger surge. Cince the serial port is used to seeing a 24volt span (-12+12=24 in volts math) then a surge of 48volts can be handled easily. Therefore in order to damage the driver chip you need to supply greater than 48 volts to the pins, and way higher than that to get past the driver chip to the PIO chip... which being cmos will die a horrible death at 7-8 volts.

there is now way this could happen. (I have seen computers sit there with close to 55 volts AC on the serial pins being inducted from a long serial run in a factory. with no damage to the PC or the serial hardware.

Short of a direct static shock to the port, which will only take out that serial port, you cant damage the mobo with a serial device (unless your serial device is a lamp cord and plug wired to a 9 pin plug.... I could see 110V ac could create a bit of trouble in the pc

Re:Phyisically Possible?

[Anonymous Coward]

actual rs-232 spec says that a logic 1 can be anywhere from -12 to -30, and a logic 0 can be anywhere from 12 to 30... however most things skimp, like in hobbyist designs, you're alright with hooking a serial line to an input pin with a resistor to limit the current and merely sensing +5 or -5. I doubt the palm pilot has charge pumps to put out serial port voltage > +-30V (especially when a lot lower voltage would do the trick and would only require multiplying the voltage by 2 or 3. I think these people had defective motherboards

Re:An Ex-Dell Tech Post

[jayhawk88]

I can't help but wonder, though, whether it's the cradles themselves zapping MOBO's, or whether it's customer misuse: customers pulling out serial connecters while the units still on, unplugging and plugging in the power connector with the serial adapter still connected, stuff like that.

Keep in mind, people will tell a tech person anything to get their computer fixed under warranty. I've been there, on both sides. I've had people look me in the eye with a straight face and tell me their modem line was NOT hooked up during the lightning storm, as I point out the nasty black burn mark near the input jack. I've had them swear that there's no way they would ever go mucking around in /Windows (as I pull DLL after DLL out of the Recycle Bin), that it must be a hardware problem. I'm sure they'd have no problem fibbing a little on when and where they plugged in/unplugged their cradle connector.

So it's definitely palm's fault, right?

[edunbar93]

damages or destroys the motherboards on certain PC brands

Heh. So they're suing Palm? Why aren't they suing the motherboard makers for making such crappy motherboards? It seems to be a much higher likelihood, since it only happens to *some* motherboards. My guess would be that palm has deeper pockets.

Either that, or the users in question here don't know jack about what really went wrong... like if they put a cup of coffee in their "cup holder" and when they hit the hot-sync button, it closed.

Re:Not a very good article

[Anonymous Coward]

Greg Gaub seems like an ok guy, but his site has a some problems. He has this listed under his "flames" seciton:

"I have viewed the damage shown on the above websight. It is my opinion that a static charge from your body is not going to do that much damage to a IC (Integrated Circuit). You have something else wrong, probably the wiring in your house."
-JCZ

Mr. Gob, you moron, JCZ is not flaming you, just commenting. And, JCZ is exactly right: static discharge would not cause bubbling like that on a chip. Here's a test you can do at home:

1. Take a soldering iron and heat it up.
2. touch soldering iron to tip of index finger and hold
3. does the skin bubble up? yes.
4. take soldering iron and touch to chip and hold.
5. does the chip bubble up? no. chips can take a lot more energy than your finger.
6. repeat experiment with static electricity and your remaining good finger.
7. does your skin bubble up? no. neither will the chip.
8. conclusion: JCZ is right, and you are wrong.

Now, it is quite possible that your palm and/or the static did hurt your machine, but that chip has nothing to do with it. How did it happen? if some small percentage of all people have bubbled chips in their boxes anyway, but the only people who look are the ones who've just zapped them, that same percentage of the people who've just zapped them are probably going to attribute the bubbling to the static zapping... but that doesn't make it so.

furthermore, even if your motherboard was properly designed to ... oh nevermind, this is a waste of my time.

Try to be more smart and less stupid, please.

Seen it

[rikkards]

I saw this happen with 2 motherboards and 3 serial ports. This happened with 2 Palm Vx with the serial Hotsync interface. I have heard rumors about them blowing the serial ports on older motherboards.