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Hardware

GNU/Linux On The Prowl: PocketLinux 87

Posted by timothy from the and-your-little-marsupial-penguin,-too! dept.
An unnamed correspondent writes:"Transvirtual has released PocketLinux for the iPaq. It features Video4Linux, mp3 playing ability, web synchronization, Kaffe OpenVM, GUI Themes, and displaying in standard or portrait mode. PocketLinux runs on VTech's Helio, iPaq's, and various other platforms." PocketLinux V.P. of Engineering Peter Mehlitz took some time off from the LWCE booth the other day to tell me about Pocketlinux -- read on for some details.

With the buzz that screenshots of X and other windowing systems running on svelte handhelds have generated lately, it's not surprising that the aisle by the PocketLinux booth was swamped with rubberneckers who actually wanted to play with the demos, not just grab t-shirts. If there's a prize for "oohs" and "ahhs" per square foot, Transvirtual may have swept the show with their demo machines, which use an integrated framebuffer device rather than coax on X. The Pocketlinux system consists of an XML framework running on Java -- using Kaffee means no Sun license required -- running on Linux. It's themeable, extensible, and slick.

"Java makes sense for this [because] it makes sense to have a machine that gives you access to distributed apps," said Peter. He anticipates applications equally at home on cell-phones, kiosks and PDAs -- and provides proof in the form of running systems, with handwriting recognition, games, audio players, and (quite nice to see) streaming video."Kaffee and XML let us do just about anything," he says. "With Kaffee, we really learned from the Linux example," he says, adding that Kaffee is now under the GPL.

The LWCE display featured the OS on both a Compaq iPaq and the exotic Itsy, as well as on a V-Tech Helio. While the Compaq machines can also run Windows (for those so inclined), PocketLinux is primed to become the default OS for the Helio, which currently comes with V-Tech's VTOS. Though the grayscale screen isn't as sexy as the Itsy's, the $150 Helio has both more RAM (10MB, including 2MB of flash) and a more powerful processor than my Visor. Helios running PocketLinux were available for sale, too -- not just vaporware -- though the PocketLinux Web site cautions that buyers who want a standard PDA should stick to V-Tech's OS until more PDA features are implemented.

(Interestingly, rather than the obligatory note that only Red Hat-based distros are supported, the installation instructions for the Helio software says instead "our development effort has standardized on a Debian Linux hosted environment and our documentation and operation under Debian is better supported. If anyone wants to write documentation for RedHat installation and submit it, we would be happy to include it.")

Despite their tendency to wolf down batteries, the color machines showed off few things the Helio couldn't, such as a small selection of colorful themes. "They're just XML files -- everything is XML files," said Peter, a point he emphasizes as important for keeping information portable. Streaming video, too -- slightly jerky, but very watchable -- had more than a few onlookers drooling. The important thing, according to Peter, is to rely on hardware to do as much of the tough work of decompression as possible. The video is transmitted with the aid of triggers embedded in Javascript. Viewing compressed movie files is "no problem, he says, "as long as we're not forced to use streaming in user space." Despite Peter's assertion that people will rely on collections of small, nearly disposable appliances rather than an "anything box," some aggregation and assimilation looks inevitable, not to mention fun. All work and no play would probably make for slow sales.

While the software inside the user's machine is free, Transvirtual intends to make money by selling server-based translation software to convert external data types for viewing and listening, as well as by providing businesses (and content providers) with specialized apps.

With the Embedded Linux Consortium, LinuxDevices.com, handhelds.org, and a gaggle of others, Free software for handheld devices has a woven a comfortable net of support for tiny systems. Welcome to the fray.

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Video 4 Linux And More On The iPaq - IN PROGRESS More

Video 4 Linux And More On The iPaq - IN PROGRESS

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  • Yea, that's why I said that. Of course, BeIA has the advantage that it takes both less time and less cost to implement. For example, it is much more modular and thus quicker to customize, and it already has a GUI that can easily fitted to a developer's needs. In some cases, these will outweight the cost factor.
  • Oh and another thing. BeIA is probably going to take less time to implement. While it may cost more, many manufactuerers may just raise the price of the product slightly to beat competitors to market.
  • >For everybody else, however, the zero-cost aspect of Linux will win out.

    Huh?

    Last time I checked BSD had a zero-cost aspect also.

    >A software developer who simply wants to write and sell a binary-only product that runs on PocketLinux need not worry about it.

    Are you sure? Do you have any court cases to prove this?

    If you were a company, would you WANT to take the risk of adhearing to the GPL vs a BSD licence if you feel the IP as expressed as source code is worth keeping secret?

  • Go go anything device! I want a little cigarette box sized thing that incorporates:

    GSM/satellite Phone
    PDA + Internet Terminal
    TV receiver + camcorder/photocamera
    Gameboy
    MP3 player
    Memorecorder (optional voice recognition)
    GPS receiver
    Diving computer
    Scientific Calculator

    Hurry up already!
  • Actually, I think we've got several thousand stuffed PocketLinux penguin toys on order, so the answer is ... probably. ;-)
  • Java programs are going to be slow and bulky unless they are compiled from bytecode to a PDA's native code by another computer before being transfered to the PDA.

    We're actually doing this for the core class libraries on the Helio (which is only a 75MHz machine), in order to shorten the startup time.

  • ... I personally want the command line on my PDA. I'm sure most illiterate people would say that I had an "outdated" PDA that ran "DOS", but I do not see what is so exciting about the "PocketLinux" project. Yes, it puts Linux on a PDA. But when I saw it, the first thing that came to mind was PalmOS. While it is certainly not a rip-off of PalmOS, it is kind of similar. I do not want a convenient "Command Console" or anything of that nature. I want to run something like twm, and Xterm. Actually, an Eterm that ran at 80x24 but filled the screen would be really cool, especially for doing things with "Interactive" programs like Pine.

    BTW, my dream of running twm on a PDA is not something I made up. Handhelds.org [handhelds.org], a page sponsored by Compaq, has some info on running Linux on PDA's. Strangely, even though it is sponsored by Q, it does not deal exclusively with their products, nor do they mention that everything is inferior to the iPaq.

    While I realize it is possible to modify the source code, this is way over my head. (And yet I seem to be the only who wants a command line interface...) I just simply do not see the excitement in creating a PalmOS-like interface for Linux. BTW, please don't flame me for calling this a "rip-off" of PalmOS. I merely said that the two are similar.

    ...............
    SUWAIN: Slashdot User Without An Interesting Name

  • http://www.handhelds.org/Comp aq/iPAQH3600/status.html [handhelds.org]

    sure can, 11 meg wireless ethernet. not sure about more wide area protocols.

  • Mine just kept flashing 12:00.
  • The Palm Pilot is not a computer. It wasn't
    designed to be. It's a PDA. WinCE was designed
    to be a computer in your palm (thus the original
    name, palm PC). You can get ipaqs with 32Meg
    memory, I'm told, 64K color, MP3 and video
    playback and add on one of IBM's 300MB HD's that
    fit in the card slot. Palm's weren't designed
    with those type of resources in mind. Even my old WinCE device has more functionality -- I can type in any address in my town or in the silicon valley and it will show me a map of the area. It's limited by the 56M size that was available at the time. The thing that is a big drawback is the proprietary communications standards. If MS were to open those up, they could greatly increase their desirability...
  • Hmm.. Good point, I didnt think about the ammount of code reuse you can do with java (using the shared class libraries for all the apps).

    Plus, coming from one of the designers, I'll assume that your point of view is quite a bit more informed than mine.

    And as for Sun, I lost lots of respect for them after the whole Blackdown fiasco.
  • We're running just fine, thank you, on a 75MHz machine with 2MB of flash and 8MB of ram (the $149 VTech Helio). Too processor intensive? I don't think so.

    We'll openly admit that our solution might have heavier core requirements than a conventional embedded OS written from scratch (eg. PalmOS). But we've got orders of magnitude greater functionality as well (full Linux kernel, full JVM, a set of class libraries which is shared between all the apps, etc). For a buck or two extra for a CPU with an MMU and a decent clock rate, you get the ability to code at extremely high levels of abstraction. As far as tradeoffs go, I think that one's a no-brainer (it's a pity that the current generation Palms are still using a slow Dragonball).

    There'll always be language wars, and everybody has their favorite. Java, as a language, isn't that bad of a choice, because it's easy, robust, full-featured, and very modular. The downsides to it are pretty minimal, and mostly theoretical. The worst downside I can think of is just the fact that the trademark is controlled by Sun, who are trying to extract a profit out of it.

  • One of the best features of pocketlinux is that it is Java. There is not much point in putting X on a handheld device. If you want X then buy a laptop. Making a comparison between a Sun workstation and a handheld is very apples and oranges. PocketLinux is not meant to replace your desktop/server/workstation.
  • We're just tracking the handhelds.org kernel sources as far as the iPaq goes. At the moment, our demos just write to a ramdisk, so you lose the data if the battery runs out and you haven't synced.

    It's looking like Linux is going to have an extreme amount of configurability in how this all gets set up -- so one thing's for certain -- it will ultimately do things the way you want it to. :-)
  • Funny then that Transvirtual has a web page showing screen shots of the iPaq running PocketLinux at
    http://www.transvirtual.com/pocketlinux.htm)

    And if the iPaq can't run Pocket Linux, why are there downloadables for both the Helios and the iPaq versions available on http://www.pocketlinux.com?

    This, plus an article in the September issue of Linux Journal ("Compaq's Approach to Linux in your Hand") make me think that the iPaq can, indeed, run Linux.
  • I have just ordered a HP Journada as the Linux port to SupoerH (same CPU as in the Dreamcast) has become quite stable and Linux + famebuffer runs on it. I sav a friend of mine with a bash on that baby (drool...)
    The PocketLinux people said that it's environment should be not too difficult to port, so I'm gonna give it a try. As there is a Debian port for SuperH starting, it shouldn't be too difficult to port Kaffe to it. When Kaffe runs, can't be too difficult to port PcoketLinux.
  • What he meant was that iPAQ is a product line, not just one product (it's like saying "I'm washing dishes with a Whirlpool" when Whirlpool makes washers, dryers, dishwashers, toasters, and whatever.

    The iPAQ H3630 and H3650 palmtops run it, but the iPAQ embedded system, mp3 player, and whatever probably can't.

    :wq!

  • The MAJC chip is not a java processor though - it was designed with emulating java in mind (things like lightning-quick thread switch in the case of a block).

    While a java interpreter will be simpler for a platform based on the MAJC, it won't be native code to the chip - this isn't picoJava
  • Well the vtech Helio and the iPaq are based on 32 bit risc chips with mmu's. (MIPS and StrongARM) So unless palm puts an mmu and addresses the other concerns of the tiny hardware then I think youll never see a usable linux on palm hardware. Yes you can work around not having an mmu but it makes everything development more difficult and the hardware slower.
  • What gives is that your Visor Deluxe has a paltry 16 MHz DragonBall EZ processor, with no semblence of a MMU. uClinux would run on your Visor, provided it had a reflashable ROM (I've no idea if it does or not), and someone thought it to be worthwhile enough to get it running on it.

    The VTech Helio, however, has a 75 MHz processor in addition to flashable ROM, making it a worthwhile platform for a PDA version of Linux. And unlike uClinux, the version of Linux which runs on the "crappy" Helio is full-blown Linux 2.4.0, as opposed to a stripped down version of 2.0.36.

    Now, what PDA hardware did you say was crappy again? :)
  • First off Kaffe is currently up to 1.06 and the LW review was comparing an old 1.04 release. Why use Kaffe on an embedded device? 1) Its fast, all of the other embedded VM to kaffe and see which one is the fastest. 2) Kaffe is tiny when compared to statically compiled binaries and shared libraries with glibc. 3) Kaffes awt implementation renders straight to the FB avoiding X or any other windowing environment. Think about it with kaffe you pretty much have the kernel and the kaffe binary and thats your os. Since it is java just about every small java application on the web will run on this thing. And BTW: Suns java license is not Free Software. The SCSL is almost as bad as MS license for the win NT source.
  • Americans love to OWN cars because the population density is so small compared to Europe and Japan, and thus cars are much more a necessity here; buses, trains, subways, etc simply need more population density than most American cities provide. If you're going to use a car for shopping and commuting, you may as well own the dang thing so you can keep your stuff in it. Furthermore, cars are too expensive to have a small one for commuting, a big one for the whole family, and a pickup for hauling. So families have one hauler and one smaller, and someone has to use the big hauler for commuting.

    Infatuation my ass. Individual on-demand transportation is a necessaity for most of the population here, and will be for quite some time.

    --

  • Re:Why Java? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Except that Java was originially designed as part of an embedded platform project, and got redirected to the web when the latter became trendy. This is -exactly- the sort of thing Java was originally designed for.

    Those who ignore history are destined to sound ignorant on /.
  • Please do give us a report of what the PocketLinux distro was like on your Helio. If you don't post it here, please email me.

    Do you know if PocketLinux has power management, and the app launcher like the iPAQ version of PocketLinux? I tried out the vhl-tools version of Linux, and it was pretty rough- to be expected, but pretty cool nonetheless.
  • >For mass produced embedded use, Linux has the advantage -- zero cost.

    And it has the DISADVANTAGE of the GPL.

    PicoBSD doesn't have the shackles of forcing the release of source code.
  • We like the GPL.

    We weren't motivated release under the GPL because we are all that interested in dual-licensing (although if somebody wants to twist our arm, I'm sure we could do that).

    Instead, we chose the GPL because we want to build a real "community" around PocketLinux, and the GPL sets the ground rules in such a way that people that want to go proprietary are on their own.

    Ultimately, PDA's are very personal, and we feel that the best ones will be free to their very core. Some BSD advocates feel that the GPL is more restrictive - they may have a point, but it's not terribly material for what we want to do with PocketLinux.

    Just because we're located in Berkeley doesn't mean we have to tow the line on the age-old GNU vs. BSD licensing debate. :-)
  • I highly doubt that Linux on a PDA will do anything but follow the same mistakes that Microsoft made with CE 1-2.

    Further, the iPaq uses a Intel StrongARM running at like 200 Mhz. The previous Compaq Aero uses a MIPS R4000 at about 70Mhz.

    Oh and CE 3.0 is doing rather well in the market, especially on the iPaq. I don't understand why Linux advocates like to claim Microsoft products wihch are successful are not... wishful thinking I guess.

    Maybe you just better stick to bashing Bob.

  • Just one thing.

    The Helios homepage has this stuff about "resetting your handheld" and "locked up applications". Coming from a Palm/Visor background that's sort of stunning. Should I expect this from my Palm device? Until now I've never considered (or had cause to consider) that my handheld would screw up and lockup forcing a 'reset'.

    Hmm, maybe I should dig around with the Palm stuff...
  • Hmmm... I wouldn't say that at all.. I think that you will find all the gadgets dissapering, The will all start to be combined... like cellphones, PDA, and portable music devices are today.

    Also... I doubt that we'll see the end of the PC anytime soon. Sure.. u might beab;r to send ur e-mail from ur small device... but there are lots of people out there who will always need the most powerfull, and biggest computer. 3D modeling comes to mind... and 100's of others...

    I predict in 10 years time.. All I will jave wil be a thin desktop computer (wich will have my TV and stereo aswell). And a small portable device, which will be able to do alot of the things the desktop could. Who knows... maybe i could just plug this futuristic PDA into a dock type thing... and just have the one PC.

    Anyway... y would i want to carry a PDA, a cellphme, an MP3 player, when I could just carry the one.. maybe this end of the anything box is true 4 some peole... it's the total oposite 4 others

  • We didn't get images built using the latest version of PocketLinux for the Helio in time for LinuxWorld. We'll all be back at work next week, and we should have some posted on the site then.

    We have an older version that works fine, so there's no reason why the newer version won't still work - but we'll have to take out some of the cool iPaq stuff (eg. color themes, video) which isn't terribly relevent on the Helio. Most of the applications should still be there though.

    I need to do a bit more work on the kernel on the Helio too. The serial driver needs a bit of fixing, and it needs a sound driver. Also, theoretically I can get the kernel to go into a true suspend mode when it's not being used, which should enable it to sleep for as long as VT-OS does (several weeks on a set of batteries).
  • The handhelds.org [handhelds.org] X11-based demo give you a shell prompt, as does Jay Carlson's "W" demo at vhl-tools.sourceforge.net [sourceforge.net]. I think I also saw screenshots where MicroWindows [censoft.com] gives you a shell prompt too.

    We don't currently have a terminal emulator in our demo, but I do know that there is already GPL'd Java telnet applet [www.mud.de] available, which could theoretically be made to telnet to localhost, thus giving us the same capability on PocketLinux.

  • Does this mean that WinCE will still be there after it runs down? I'm really looking forward to messing with Linux on my iPAQ, but I don't want to lose WinCE and irreversibly screw up the flash ROM before the flashing stuff stabilizes...

    :wq!

  • so the real question, then, is are you going to be giving them out to early adopters? :)

    :wq!

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • I got it up and running on my helio. It was very easy. only feature is a basic shell. no display to the helio lcd that i can tell. But what the hell its a interesting start.
  • Believe it or not Palms can and do crash a lot.

    3com/Palm has had a big problem with the Palm Vx and memory issues (its the 8MB model), plus buggy software can completely wipe a Palm.

    I was a beta tester for OmniSky [omnisky.com] and there were a ton a problems (which I knew to expect). Their 1.0+ release is much stabler, and hasn't crashed yet.

    If it's got a CPU, it can probably crash.
  • For mass produced embedded use, Linux has the advantage -- zero cost.

    Until you want to play RealAudio, RealVideo, mp3, Flash in your portable browser. Then it turns out you have to license all these technologies, and pay for them too. That's when BeOS (or rather BeIA, Be's OS for Internet Appliances) starts to become really interesting.

  • >GPL sets the ground rules in such a way that people that want to go proprietary are on their own.

    If that is your goal, what will you do when someone uses your platform w/o releasing their code?
  • I wonder if this is possible to run it on a Cassiopeia E100/E105/E115. They say they have binaries for MIPS so it should be possible, but then will it support the Cassiopeia I/O ? (screen/sound/IO ports).

    Also you need to have Linux on your PC to install this on your PDA - which basically sucks. I want a simple group of binary files that I can upload to my PDA with just any upload utils and that's it...
  • Oh I hate it when I let myself get drawn in by flamebait like this.
    • Given that tools such as Kaffe are no longer needed on Linux now that we have a complete, official JDK from Sun
    As someone else has mentioned, there are legitimate concerns about dependance on Java from Sun.
    • (with a better JIT as well, see the August LJ for info),
    Remember - linux does not only run on the x86. What about our PPC cousins? or Alphas?
    • we know see that they are hawking a bizzare mixture of Linux and Java
    Precisely what is so bizzare about Java on linux? Exactly why would it be more sensible to run a program on Java on Solaris? or to run a program on Java on Windows?

    If you are hotile to Linux, say so.
    If you are hotile to Java, say so.

    Do not try to dress either up as a legitimate concern about the particular combination of technologies.

    • (with XML thrown in for buzzword compliance)
    <sarcasm>Yes, it would be so much better if they used a binary format. Then they could change it with each new version of the windowing system, and make the new format incompatible with the old one. This whole 'XML' thing is made up for tree-hugging hippies anyway. People should use Word .docs, rather than HTML files. Pass me my crack pipe.</sarcasm>
    • People buy PDA's to jot little notes or as an address book.
    Wow.
    I haven't heard a statement with such vison and foresight since Bill Gates stated that no-one would need more 1MB of memory.
    Seriously though, this may well be true at the minute, but it is changing all the time. I guess the wave that is currently hitting is text messaging and mobile email. I don't know what will come next. But I would hope a PDA that I bought tommorow would be flexible enough so I could hardware/software upgrade - rather than bin it for a new one.
    • Why bog down an already slow processor and waste precious battery lifetime running a bloated JVM when native code would work just as well?
    Yes! Except, uh native code doesn't work as well.

    Portability is an important issue.
    I seem to recall there being a hardware indepentant format for WinCE binaries, to cope with the fact that different CE handhelds are using different processors.

    Do you like the fact, that if you find a neat little utility for your palm pilot {eg}, you cannot use it on your PC, and you cannot give it to your friend, who owns a CE machine? Seems a dumb situation to me.

    • For small systems like PDAs, speed is a much more important factor than portability.
    Great claim. Doesn't really stand up to a reality check. And anyway, this seems inconsistant with a previous point of yours. Just how much processor power do you need to 'jot little notes or as an address book'?

    The palm is the most popular handheld. It runs on a 16bit by 16mhz processor. Go figure. More power would be nice, for playing mp3s, etc. But that is just 'another feature to list on the box ', isn't it?

    • All in all, this seems to be YA Linux PDA: loaded with features no one wants, no one needs, and no one will use.
    Fine. Calm down, stop bitching about it, and let people make that decision themselves and vote with their wallets.
    • But hey, it's got a penguin on it, so that's guarenteed sales to the geek demographic.
    Ah, sadly true.
    Can't argue with this.

    Okay, sorry if I get a little flamey at places, but you make too many strong yet unsubstanciated claims and self contradictory statements here.

    G

  • Personally, I think it's a waste of time and space to squeeze a Linux kernel on a PDA.

    What part of 'Free as in Speech' do you not understand?

    checking the entire flash memory would take a long time

    There are a whole host of new filesystems on the way that eliminate fsck. In the meantime, using FAT (!) is a reasonable compromise, because while it is slow and stupid, it is also rugged in the face of sudden interruptions (guess why it *had* to be).

    Furthermore, what's the point of shoving a server operating system onto a handheld organizer?

    Hint: don't install the server, you probably won't need it. You can probably get away with not loading Samba or Wine as well. :-p
    --
  • No, Americans are not a car-owning car-driving because of population density. Americans are car centric because they decided to. Many cities have the same or even more sparse population densities with strong viable public transport. The story I remember is that the car and oil companies in America conspired to buy out and bankrupt public transport and lobby government to build big highways. Once you build highways you attract cars and reduce the viability of public transport. That might not be so bad except that cars are an expensive, inefficient, poluting form of transport. If you work out the area devoted to cars in an American city (roads, garages, car parks etc) it is actually a lot more than that devoted to residential dwellings! Now if you removed all the roads, made the city more compact as a result and installed public transport you'd have a much nicer environment to live in.

  • "Anything" devices (Score:4)

    by MostlyHarmless ( 75501 ) <artdent@[ ]eshell.org ['fre' in gap]> on Saturday August 19, 2000 @11:51AM (#842731)
    The author, along with many top people from many companies, asserts that the "anything" box is dead and that the future is moving towards smaller, specialized computers. This is the logic of the network machine, the logic of the compact car. It seems to make more sense than the all-purpose desktop computer + PDA -- and it is also doomed to failure.

    The American infatuation with the desktop computer and the PDA is very similar to our love affair with the car. Cars are big, cars are possessions. While successful in many other cities, shared car plans have never really caught on (although there is a plan in the works for Cambridge, or so I have heard). Why? Americans like owning big cars, SUVs and cadillacs. They like owning them. A car is not just a tool to get from one place to another -- it is a lifestyle.

    In the same way, cell phones are far more popular in Scandinavia and gadget-crazy Japan than in the U.S. While there are many factors that can help account for this, one important observation is that Americans treat computers like they do cars. We don't want gadgets. We don't want a bunch of specialized devices that each only do one thing. We want a big mother****ing computer fully loaded with an AM/FM cassette, kitchen sink available as an option.

    --

  • Given that tools such as Kaffe [kaffe.org] are no longer needed on Linux now that we have a complete, official JDK from Sun (with a better JIT as well, see the August LJ for info), I think that Transvirtual was thrown into a situation in which there was no future for them in the Linux world. Rather than doing what they did in the past (ie, innovating), we know see that they are hawking a bizzare mixture of Linux and Java (with XML thrown in for buzzword compliance) at the PDA crowd, perhaps the last market in which flash and glitter is more important than real results.

    People buy PDA's to jot little notes or as an address book. Anything else is just another feature to list on the box (and listing Linux is guaranteed to make geeks drool). How many people use PDAs to run Java-enabled distributed applications? Not many, I'm guessing. Worse still is the use of Java. Why bog down an already slow processor and waste precious battery lifetime running a bloated JVM when native code would work just as well? For small systems like PDAs, speed is a much more important factor than portability. Client-side Java is dead on the desktop, and I'm guessing it will have a short life on PDAs as well.

    All in all, this seems to be YA Linux PDA: loaded with features no one wants, no one needs, and no one will use. But hey, it's got a penguin on it, so that's guarenteed sales to the geek demographic.

    -- Floyd

  • uhh (Score:2)

    by niekze ( 96793 )
    wasn't there already a "PocketLinux" that was a single floppy distro? (hence the name...the floppy can fit in your pocket.)
  • Wow, port the Palm OS to X on this thing and it would really kick ass! Solves the linux user-unfriendlyness issues and gives Palm an entry to all the great code being written for linux.. Would make the perfect next-generation Palm.. and continue to put the screws to MS.

  • Do we really need Linux on a PDA? (Score:4)

    by AFCArchvile ( 221494 ) on Saturday August 19, 2000 @11:58AM (#842735)

    ...or is this being done solely for the sake of proving it possible?

    I decided about a year ago that if I ever decided to get a PDA, it would be the Palm. (I've wavered over just which model I should get, but I like PalmOS, nice and simple). The only thing I would do with a PDA is take notes/schedule my day. If I want to hear music, I'll bring a Walkman/Discman/Rio. If I want to watch movies, I'll go to a theater. If I want to read a book, I'll go to my local Barnes & Noble.

    Personally, I think it's a waste of time and space to squeeze a Linux kernel on a PDA. It would be hell if you yanked out the batteries, checking the entire flash memory would take a long time. Furthermore, what's the point of shoving a server operating system onto a handheld organizer? To all those who say, "Because I can," I say, "Go ahead, waste your money." I'm not the one using a rocketship to travel three blocks down the street.

  • sigh (Score:2)

    by cheezus ( 95036 )
    Yes, I *know* there is uClinux running on a Palm V somewhere, but when is there finally going to be linux for all palm os devices? That crappy VTech thing (uhoh, here comes -1, Troll) gets linux and my Visor Deluxe doesn't? What gives? Considering the number of geeks that use Palm devices compared to the relatively small adoption of WinCE and other weird propreitary devices, one would think there would be a small, easy to install, and reliable linux for Palm devices.

    ---

  • yup. i was right =)
    its http://pocket-linux.coven.vmh.net/
  • This brings linux to a different type of user. I have to tip my hat to the guys you did this thanks
  • Another Pocket Linux [vmh.net] project already exists.

    -jfedor
  • I would definitely say that this is not the place for Java. I mean Java at is core was not made to make things faster or less proccessor intensive. When your working in an environment like a these, there are huge constraints on memory use and overhead.

    Even though Java does provide a faster development process and more extensibility, as the article says, these things shouldn't be made to do all, they are aimed at doing specific tasks as efficiently as possible. So the main strengths of java aren't even neccesary. I mean, other, more low level languages can read XML and use other 'buzzword' technology just as good, and faster.
  • >>And it has the DISADVANTAGE of the GPL.

    The fact that Linux is under GPL would only be a disadvantage to OS companies that would like to create a proprietary (and likely non-free) OS.

    They would probably not choose to base their OS on Linux because it is GPL'd. I believe this is why Apply did not base OS X on Linux.

    For everybody else, however, the zero-cost aspect of Linux will win out. A software developer who simply wants to write and sell a binary-only product that runs on PocketLinux need not worry about it. Just don't use GPL'd code in your product and you are safe.

  • I highly doubt that Linux on a PDA will do anything but follow the same mistakes that Microsoft made with CE 1-2.

    Linux is just the kernel. It will be up to the application developers and the distribution packagers to make a usable consistant interface and applets tweaked for the small screens. If one effort fails, another can pick up.

    Further, the iPaq uses a Intel StrongARM running at like 200 Mhz. The previous Compaq Aero uses a MIPS R4000 at about 70Mhz.

    You're right, and I knew that actually. My point is if the Helio with the 75 Mhz MIPS is ok, then other Win CE devices like the Aero, the Philips Nino and particularly the Casio E100 etc should be able to use it too.

    Their larger 8 or 16 bit color screens might slow em down a tad as compared to the Helio but still, these machines should be pretty good hosts for Linux. Better than say most Palms, Visors or Psions, for instance.

    Oh and CE 3.0 is doing rather well in the market, especially on the iPaq. I don't understand why Linux advocates like to claim Microsoft products wihch are successful are not... wishful thinking I guess.

    Wrong guess, I actually own an upgraded Compaq Aero 2130 which is now a Pocket PC. So I'm interested to see Windows CE 3.0 succeed. But if it does not, I'll be real happy to have plan B. It wouldn't surprise me if plan B turns out to develop more quickly.

    I think it's too early really to say anything about Windows CE 3.0's succes. Compaq and Casio are selling everything they can make, but it turns out their commitment wasn't all that big and they've only made relatively small quantities of their offerings. HP is selling quite a lot of Jornadas but there isn't a run on these devices like there is on the rare IPaq.

    Maybe you just better stick to bashing Bob.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • He does have the point that Java is slower despite the fact that it might have been developed for embedded projects. Until Sun makes the first MAJC chip, Java programs are going to be slow and bulky unless they are compiled from bytecode to a PDA's native code by another computer before being transfered to the PDA.
  • Great as it is to see these other teams working to develop linux apps and systems for PDAs, I find it interesting that Compaq's internal linux team is the *only* group that's seriously trying to build a system that runs under X. Now, its quite possible that the Microwindows, XML, and various other GUI variants could be

    • Faster
    • less memory hog
    • features more directly pertinant to PDA use
    The bald fact is that the vast majority of existing applications are written for X.

    Many apps, perhaps, may be portable from X to [GUI of choice] with relatively little effort, many X apps may still require some kludging to work on PDAs, but it would seem to me that the chance of having a significant number of useful apps on a PDA platform changes dramatically when you consider [GUI of choice] vs X.

    X is thestandard. I use it on Suns, I use it on PCs and Macs. I would strongly welcome its presence on a PDA. For this reason, while I wish-well the YOPY [yopy.org], Transvirtual's effort [pocketlinux.com], and others, I feel much more comfortable supporting the Compaq [handhelds.org] dev team.

    Does anyone feel the advantages of heterogenous GUIs outweigh the broad cross-platform support of X?

  • I want a big MF computer. Not that it might be all that more poweful than something smaller, but i think an S80 systems that resides in 3 racks is a hell of a lot cooler than a dinky little pc. My PC itslef has a dual hot-swappable power supply and about 10 drive bays. why? because i can :) if i could have found an inexpensive board with remote i/o support i would have done that too.
  • Just to get this misconseption out of peoples minds, the iPaq is not a product. iPaq is a product line from Compaq containing multiple things like the PocketPC, WebPC, an MP3 player and probably more down the road.
  • >>
    Does anyone feel the advantages of heterogenous GUIs outweigh the broad cross-platform support of X?
    >>
    Well, I consider myself uniformed in this, since I use X on occasions so rare, you could mark them as some kind of weird holy days or something, but...
    Yes :)
    Just because it's the standard doesn't mean it's right for the job. For something small and tiny, the software should be small and tiny. If not using X means I'll have more memory and CPU for everything else, then I'm down with that.

    Eric ze Kidder

  • What good is a Command line Interface without a keyboard to type it in with? I have trouble typing and missing keys on my standard size keyboard, it would be horrendous with a tiny keyboard that was "portable." The Command Line Interface just isn't practical.

    As for me I will wait to get a PDA until I can access the internet at a decent speed, or tell my home computer to download mp3s for me.
  • Define 'doing rather well'. Last I heard Palm was
    still destroying CE in sales, with mostly outdated
    hardware to boot... it'll be interesting to see
    what happens when the StrongARM based Palms come
    out...

    Don't get me wrong. I love the hardware Wince has
    driven to market, but I've used it and I've used
    a Palm, and the Palm wins hands down...

    .technomancer
  • ..but I will when they can get Gimp running on it and I can use the pen to draw with it
  • Considering all the bitching that's been going on with Qt vs. the GPL? I wouldn't be suprised if developers get a little scared, since they have to develop the equivilant of Qt +a WM to use PocketLinux in a product.

  • This "Linux on iPAQ" sounds great to me, but I should point out that the name "PocketLinux" has already been used for more than a year by an OSS project porting Linux to some PDA from NEC.

    Check out http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~bg3k- ysd/pocketlinux/ [asahi-net.or.jp].

    As both project involves in same area, they'd better consider resolving this name crash...

  • http://www.linuxce.org should have the answer.

    ---
    Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com." The purpose of that site was not known. -- MSNBC 10-26-1999 on MS crack
  • Ahh, you miss the point here.

    If they're developing and licensing it themselves but are committed to going for an open license then yes, the GPL is probably better. Big 'if', though.

    What we're talking about here is a pre-existing program which they want to use and which happens to be under an open license.

    As it's GPL with Linux, they have to release all their modifications and make the code available. Reduces the chances of them managing a USP.

    If we were talking BSD they'd be under no obligation to do anything. They can use it pretty much as they please and don't have to distribute their stuff as anything other than binary.
  • > > GPL sets the ground rules in such a way that people that want to go proprietary are on their own.

    > If that is your goal, what will you do when someone uses your platform w/o releasing their code?

    We've got realy nasty lawyers.
  • I don't think that anybody has gotten serious
    about writing a JIT for kaffe for SuperH yet, although we're certainly open to doing it if some company wants to lend a bit of support (we're pretty busy). It would probably only take a few weeks, if that. We accept patches too. It's probably easy to get it running just as an interpreter.
  • Ricochet and some cell phones just interface to the serial port, so they work fine. Personally, I'm in the process of making up a cable so I can use Ricochet and my Nokia cell phone (gnokii.org) for wireless stuff. The screen on the iPaq is really quite readable in direct sunlight too, which is nice.

  • We like big cars, but small electronics. We don't want a big MF computer, we want a f$%king tiny computer that does everything..

    Personally, I want a watch that looks like a Rolex, has a holographic display, has the functions of my palm and my cell phone, and lets me play half life while stuck in a tin can 30,000 feet in the sky..

  • BeOS vs. Linux (Score:5)

    by be-fan ( 61476 ) on Saturday August 19, 2000 @12:03PM (#842760)
    Interestingly, here is one place BeOS will be competing with Linux. Be has recently announced a deal with Compaq to use it's BeIA OS in some of its machines. Neither OS really has a clear advantage in this field. Since most of the handhelds will use non X-based GUIs, POSIX will be about the only standard that the Linux-Desktop and Linux-handheld OSs will have in common. Since BeIA has POSIX support too, application support will not be a big factor here. Linux has the advantage that it is OSS, which enables developers to customize it. Although BeIA is very modular and customizable also, Linux may have the advantage here. Linux also has the advantage that it is free. However, BeOS has the advantage that it would probably be quicker to work with, since it includes a GUI that is easily customized for a PDA-maker's needs.

    The future is really pretty cloudy. It is very probable that the two will compete, because undoubtedly BeIA will scale down from Internet Appliances to handhelds, while PocketLinux will scale up from handhelds to IAs. Neither really has a technical or performance advantage, because most of the speed issues depend on what GUI the PDA-maker chooses to use. I think that the two big factors here are going to be GUI quality, and ease of implementation for the PDA maker.

  • Kaffe also only supports JDK 1.1 If it were up to date with Sun's releases, the situation would be different. But it's not. Developers need the new features in 1.2, and they're not going to wait.

    Free ("as in root beer") is good enough when GPL-free isn't available. How many people complain about Loki porting things to Linux?

    No one's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to use Sun's tools.

    -- Floyd
  • any idea if they managed to fix the "we cant write to flash using linux on the ipaq" bugs ? how bout writing to flash on the fly with applications so i dont have to bother about that battery backed ram loosing data ? and is the PCMCIA/PC flash slots fully supported yet ?
  • Americans like owning...cadillacs? The only people who own Cadillacs these days are old people.
  • Regarding yanking out the batteries, you should check out the Journaling Flash File System [axis.com]. Regarding squeezing the kernel onto a PDA, check out the Cram File System (in the 2.4 kernel), which compresses data on a per-page basis.
  • I believe you mean flash ROM. Ram is always writeable. Normal ROM is not, as it stands for Read Only Memory, but Flash ROM can be written on a certain number of times and doesn't require electricity to hold data like RAM does.
  • Given that tools such as Kaffe are no longer needed on Linux now that we have a complete, official JDK from Sun (with a better JIT as well, see the August LJ for info), I think that Transvirtual was thrown into a situation in which there was no future for them in the Linux world.

    Kaffe still has an impressing list of supported operating systems and processors [transvirtual.com]. And that list is not even complete, they changed it recently, there also is support for FreeBSD and I don't know what else is missing. They even claim to support the Hurd / i386 ;-) Even if the more 'important' of these platforms are now covered by IBM and Sun, it's great to have a free JVM that seems to be relatively easily portable to new platforms. So Kaffe is definitely needed! And although Linux JVM's are available, the diversity is a great thing to have.
  • umm..you cant port the palm OS to X dimwit.
    Why go to the effort, you can just run native binaries under emulation :)

    There are already supported emulators for Windows, Mac and Linux. Unofficially one for CE, too. For those that care, an O' Reilly article [oreillynet.com] describes the Linux Palm emulator. Download from Palm's own download area [palmos.com]. You need a Palm ROM file to get this to run, however. And you're supposed to extract it from your own real Palm.

    its a non multitasking OS with virtually no screen management..hell its doesnt have any memory management either and treats memory like a database

    Its simplicity and low end hardware requirements also happen to make it really easy to emulate. The PalmOS runs thousands of useful little programs tuned to run on a tiny screen. Typically these programs perform stand alone functions, they're unaware of and don't interoperate with any other programs that are installed on the Palm.

    Reusing these in an emulated environment on a Linux PDA might be a worthwhile effort. The IPaq surely must have the CPU oomph.
  • I used to always hear it referred to as FlashRAM. It's generally intended to only be read from most of the time, but is actually write-able, so it's not ROM. More recently, I've heard it called FlashROM. Whatever... as far as I know, FlashRAM = FlashROM

    As far as Linux on a handheld goes, I've been thinking about it for a while. So far, it doesn't seem to make much sense. Though it'll likely be more reliable than WinCE, I doubt it'll be much more efficient. However, I may still exchange my PalmV for one.

    Why? Because I want to learn more about Linux and I don't have time to screw around with it on my desktop. I installed RH5.0 a while back, figured out which files to edit to get my video card to work, ran a Q2 server, etc... but I NEED Windows due to my job, and it was too inconvenient to have to reboot back and forth. So, I haven't played with Linux in a year or 2.

    Having it on a handheld interests me because I hope to be able to play around Linux when I'm killing time (instead of playing Hearts/Vexed/whatever on my PalmV, which I probably do 3-4 hours per week).

    However, I'm really not sure how much I'll be able to learn on Linux on a handheld. Since most things I'd want to learn about are meant to be on a server or at least a workstation, and the screen will be so small, I dunno if it'll be that much fun to use. But, assuming it is usable, I ought to get something out of it by messing with Linux for a few hours per week...

  • You don't have to have linux on your PC to install to the Helio, you could use just about anything.
  • You may want to check out the relevant handhelds.org [handhelds.org] mailing lists. I know I've seen at least one of the PocketLinux developers posting there regularly, and since most of these systems are still at the "getting a reasonable system bootstrapped" level, they're all working together a lot.

    :wq!

  • Great to hear! Word on the street is that Vtech has been very helpful in helping develoeprs with information about the hardware, but I suppose you've already tried to speak with them. Are you planning on adding microphone support?
  • And This PocketLinux project has been around since 1998! I went so far as to send an email to Transvirtual letting them know that there was a project using PocketLinux long before they were. I also sent an Email to Pawel Wiecek (aka Coven) concerning this. I do host a mirror of this Linux Distro [uswest.net]. So I Felt compelled to send some emails on this.

    And more than likely this company (Transvirtual) will claim they had it first. And go after the previously mentioned projects that were already using the name and sue them to change the name.

    This would be a typical corporate move. - Maybe Ralph Naders Ideas aren't so crazy????

    Anarchy RULES!

  • I bought a vtech Helio at LinuxWorld (Score:4)

    by hsouders ( 57160 ) on Saturday August 19, 2000 @12:20PM (#842773)
    I purchased a Helio from the TransVirtual people at LinuxWorld for $150 total.

    Out of the box it outperforms my Palm Pilot. It runs on a 75mhz MIPs CPU with 8MB of ram and 2MB of FLASHABLE (ie. can upgrade the OS, etc) RAM. The unit uses an interesting method that allow you to completely swap in different operating systems.

    I _totally_ see a big future for this little device. Below are some links

    Transvirtual's Pocket Linux Site [pocketlinux.com]
    Helio HomePage [myhelio.com]
    Sourceforge Linux on the Helio page [sourceforge.net]

    And.. If this isn't enough for you. There is another company that has put Linux on handhelds. They were at LinuxWorld also (I never saw them), and were demoing their Agenda VR3 Linux Handheld. Their web site is at: Agenda Linux Handheld [agendacomputing.com]

    The Agenda VR3 will not be available til around October according to their WWW site. The vtech Helio is available now. I hope they both do well, but I'd have to say the helio has an edge over the VR3 with it's sound recording features, plus the head start jump on the VR3.

    Oh.. Of course TransVirtual's Linux software and Kafee software for the Helio are GPL!!!

    I am putting Linux on my Helio tonight. Please post pertinent links and info. Will report back on how it went tomorrow.

  • I do not know about the Ipaq.

    However, the vtech Helio uses a unique method that allows a person to fairly easily load an OS into the flash RAM. It is possible for me to load Linux in flash ram and later load back in the vtech OS, and later load in Linux, and later..

    Since the OS is in flash ram it's okay to remove the batteries without worrying about losing the OS.
  • This stuff isn't useful in the sense that you can now brag about the number of httpd processes you've got running in your pocket as much as it is to have a familiar OS platform that isn't likely to be obsolete soon.

    IPaq comes with Windows CE 3.0 which has yet to prove itself in the market and faces an uphill struggle with the specter of previous Win CE releases over it. The Helio comes with VT-OS so that it may run some basic PDA apps but VTech doesn't seem to be interested in establishing the OS on its own. They're pointing towards Linux for developers.

    Sure, PDAs don't need all the features a PC Linux distribution comes with, but then Linux is just a kernel that happens to work on these MIPS processors. The open source concept is just as valuable for developers for this format.

    I hope this development will revive some other machines. Most older Windows CE devices generally have comparable specs to the IPaq and the Helio and could have a second life with a nice Linux distro.

    Flo

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