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Seagate Announces First SSD, 2TB HDD
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Fri May 30, 2008 06:42 PM
from the get-with-the-program dept.
from the get-with-the-program dept.
Lucas123 writes "Seagate CEO Bill Watkins said today that the company plans to put out its first solid state disk drive next year as well as a 2TB version of its Barracuda hard disk drive. Watkins also alluded to Seagate's inevitable move from spinning disk to solid state drives, but emphasized it will be years away, saying the storage market is driven by cost-per-gigabyte and though SSDs provide benefits such as power savings, they won't be in laptops in the next few years. A 128GB SSD costs $460, or $3.58 per gigabyte, compared to $60 for a 160GB hard drive, according to Krishna Chander, an analyst at iSuppli. 'It will take three to four years for SSDs to come to parity with hard drives,' on price and reliability."
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Your Rights Online: Seagate Sues STEC For Patent Infringement 51 comments
Lucas123 writes "Yesterday Seagate filed suit against STEC, claiming several of its products, including solid state disks and some DRAM devices, infringe as many as four of its patents. Today STEC responded that it holds patents on the technology 10 years older than Seagate's. A Seagate win in the suit, or a settlement, could result in the equivalent of a tax on SSDs and potentially other flash memory products, increasing prices to end users at a time when demand for SSD storage is exploding."
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Seagate Ships Billionth Hard Drive 245 comments
Lucas123 writes "Seagate's first drive, shipped in 1979 was the ST506, which had a capacity of 5MB and cost a cool $1,500 — or $300 per megabyte. Today, a typical Seagate holds 1TB and cost just 1/5000th of a cent ($0.0002) per megabyte. Seagate, which claims to be the first company to ship a billion drives, says all those drives amounted to 79 million terabytes of capacity, enough for 158 billion hours of digital video or 1.2 trillion hours of MP3 songs." Update: 04/23 14:56 GMT by CT : The quoted fraction is wrong. Someone complain to ComputerWorld. Update: 04/23 15:13 GMT by CT : TY. The site is corrected to say '"just 1/50th of a cent ($0.0002) per megabyte'. The universal equation is once again balanced.
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Every news source (Score:5, Informative)
Seagate is announcing two seperate products. One is a SSD and the OTHER is a 2TB hdd.
Re:Every news source (Score:5, Interesting)
Truthfully, I'm really looking forward to hybrid drives with, say 64-128 GB of flash, where all the "load-often, change rarely" data goes, like applications, OS, etc., and 2^N (N >= 8) GB of classic HD storage space for stuff that may need gazillions of writes (browser cache, working documents, SVN repositories, etc.).
In fact, wouldn't it be great if the drive could be smart about it and--over time--identify files that were mostly read-only (iPhoto archives, MP3s) and migrate them to the flash storage area where fast, low-power reads would be a benefit.
While we're dreaming, database engines could even be optimized to read only from the SSD-portion of a hybrid drive if a particular data point had not been written to in over N minutes, or since the last collation (explained later), but would write to the platters, and then during quiet cycles, it could do a collation. The collation would move data which was on the platters, but which did not have a pattern of large volumes of writes back to the SSD volume.
And... I'd like a pony...
Parent
SSD Performance (Score:5, Informative)
For 100% read applications SSDs tend to be similar in performance to hard disks when reading linearly, and a lot faster than hard disks when reading randomly. This shows up in linear read speeds of 100 MB/sec for a typical Flash SSD which is "close" to a hard disk. For random 4K reads, Flash SSDs can stomp any hard disk. Most disks are in the 10,000 4K read IOPS range where 15K SAS drives are in the 250 range or 40x slower. So for applications that are 100% read SSDs can be as much as 40x faster, although the average is usually in the range of 15x to 20x.
When you start writing to Flash things get interesting. Flash is really designed for large, linear, aligned, writes. With most drives, you can get maximum write throughput only if you write exactly aligned with the drives internal erase blocks. Thus you can write exactly 2 megabytes on exact 2 megabyte drive boundaries and get 100% of the theoretical write throughput of the drive. Unfortunately, no application acts like this, so you are at the mercy of the file system and Flash controller to turn your smaller, probably random, and probably mis-aligned writes into what the drive can handle. The net impact of this is that good Flash SSDs have 4K random write IOPS in the 120s which is 1/2 the speed of a 15K SAS drive. I have measured Flash SSD with 4K write IOPS with values like 135, 120, 64, 43, 24, 13, 4.0, and 3.3.
This is why Flash SSD performance is so hard to judge. The random write performance can suck up the available "drive time" and dig a system deep into dirty buffer flushing. We talked with one Dell laptop user that described their system becoming "unusable" while an Outlook indexing operations was randomly updating a big file. Unusable in this case was 2+ minutes for to bring up task manager.
These random writes also have a real impact on the wear of the drive. Every time you seek a write, you basically chew up a write/erase cycle, even if the write is only 4K long. If you look at a drive that claims 50 GB/day for 10 years, this is 50 GB of linear writes on exact erase block boundaries. If you write 4K randomly, the 50 GB really means 25,000 4K writes or 100 Megabytes of random writes.
The solution to this is to not write randomly to the drive. There are file systems designed for Flash that address these issues. These are typically called "Log File Systems". Unfortunately, there is no generally available file system really designed for performance. In Linux the LogFS options are really tuned for small memory small storage systems and for hardware where the flash chips are directly accessible. They do help drive wear a lot, but they are just not tuned for Gigabytes of space or database crunching performance.
Another solution is my companies product called MFT (Managed Flash Technology) which is a software block mapping layer that runs on the host. It gives you the random write performance benefits and wear benefits of a LogFS while allowing you to use whatever file system you wish. MFT was developed on 2.6 Linux and has been ported to Windows. With MFT, the same drives that do 25 4K random write IOPS usually measure over 10,000. The linear speed of the drive is still equal to a hard disk, but the random speed is now closer to symmetric with reads and writes. Thus jobs like updating databases can literally run 20x faster than the fastest hard disks.
In the end, Flash SSDs will find specific markets initially. I can say with certainty that they won't get used for off-line backups or storing/edit large quantities of HD video. But give them databases or file systems with lots of small files, and they can really smoke a hard drive.
Parent
Re:Every news source (Score:5, Funny)
Wow, I saw the headline in my RSS feed and misread it the same way everyone else did. I expected the next story to be about the new finance company Seagate was opening to provide mortgages on 2TB SSDs.
Parent
Re:Every news source (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Oh, no.. Here comes the nostalgia again.. (Score:5, Funny)
-jcr
Re:Oh, no.. Here comes the nostalgia again.. (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Oh, no.. Here comes the nostalgia again.. (Score:5, Interesting)
An extra 2Mb of RAM came with that drive, for a system-wide total of 2.5Mb. Of course, with such a limited system, all I could do was run office and desktop publishing software, paint programs, 3-d modeling and ray-tracing software, and the latest games like Turrican, Lemmings, and the Indiana Jones adventure game.
It's amazing to see how far we've come these past 18 years.
Parent
Re:Oh, no.. Here comes the nostalgia again.. (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Me Too! (Score:5, Interesting)
It's so nice to see a company that fought this at every step pretend to embrace it.
Re:Me Too! (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Me Too! (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Me Too! (Score:5, Informative)
Separately, it's nice to know that analysts agree with research I've done that it's only 4 years before SSD surpasses HD, at least in 2.5 inch drives. I've been comparing the relative price improvement of hard disk prices to flash and its pretty easy to estimate a crossover point.
You can have a look at my data (charts) and conclusions here. http://www.mattscomputertrends.com/flashdiskcomparo.html [mattscomputertrends.com]
Parent
Re:Me Too! (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd say they're being smart. Right now Seagate DOES have market recognition for storage. A proper, forward thinking CEO(I know, rare), should always be thinking on how to adapt to evolving markets.
Much like how, when IBM started, they were a tabulating machine company. If they had tried to stay that, they wouldn't be around today.
Much like how, if you start digging into them, you'll find many oil companies are busily attempting to become 'energy' companies, diversifying into solar, wind, biological fuel production, etc...
Sure, right now SSD doesn't make financial sense in most applications. But it's out there, it's selling. It doesn't take much work to look at a graph comparing SSD vs HD cost per gig for various form factor hard drives. It doesn't take much to look at computer usage and realize that the majority of laptop users aren't filling up their existing hard drives. It doesn't take much to look at the dropping cost of a usefully large SSD vs the more or less constant 'minimum cost' low capacity HD. Just looking at these factors a competent CEO will realize that Seagate could be relegated to special purpose needs, and maybe even bankrupt from the loss of the mass market.
Parent
Re:Me Too! (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm all for adjusting to your environment, but there's a difference between being a leader and innovator, and a gadfly-turned-also-ran. Not saying I wouldn't buy their products, but even when they were saying, "never never never" (wish I could cite a source), I know it was BS BS BS.
Parent
Price / Performance isn't always king (Score:5, Insightful)
For the average consumer, SSD's aren't yet the way to go, but for what I'd bet is a good proportion of the
$460 for 128G SSD? Hell Yeah! (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Price / Performance isn't always king (Score:5, Insightful)
Intel has better performance at the top-end right now, but that doesn't mean they win performance-per-dollar.
Parent
I simply see market for a hybrid drive (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I simply see market for a hybrid drive (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:I simply see market for a hybrid drive (Score:4, Informative)
The only hybrid drive I see is an 80 gig seagate though, although there are likely more offerings.
Parent
Analysts are dumb (Score:4, Interesting)
SAMSUNG Spinpoint F1 HD103UJ 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM. Cache: 32MB. Form Factor: 3.5". $184.99
Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST31000340AS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM. Cache: 32MB. Form Factor: 3.5". $209.99
Next year these will be 4TB, 8TB, 16TB? $100-$200 range. Call me on it; by December 2009 (i.e. in 2009, next year) it'll happen. Where will we see the SSD price point?
We would disagree (Score:5, Interesting)
- SSDs aren't as vibration sensitive (both will not take a bullet, but only SSD can likely survive a normal drop of 2M on to concrete)
- SSDs don't have the temperature/altitude constraints
- SSDs don't have latency and no rise/shutdown time for green needs, in fact, they use hardly any power at all
- SSDs are generally faster, although there are algorithms needed in flash to prevent bucket overuse because reads are almost infinite, but writes are not
- SSDs take less in terms of precious metals and present fewer QA problems
- No electromechanicals to wear out.
The price point? Going down. It's an obvious solution to a long time problem. Magnetic versus flash storage will tend to favor flash, as magnetism decays sooner than flash will-- when flash is written to correctly.
Parent
Re:Analysts are dumb (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Rotating disks get closer to physical limits and designers are planning for some big technology changes that will have an effect on cost. Check out Mark Kryder's video presentation on future disk technologies at CMU (I don't have the URL handy.)
2. SSD technology can go up with Moore's law for the foreseeable future.
3. We're getting to the point where SSDs reach practical sizes. I don't need 1TB in my laptop - I could live with 64GB quite well (I only have 120GB right now.) So, in a year or two I can probably get an SSD for my typical usage pattern at a decent price. At that point the volume for SSDs will grow dramatically and rotating disks will be used mostly for very large capacity and/or very low $/GB. Less profitable => fewer engineering dollars => slower density growth. Just what happened to tape a decade ago.
Parent
SSDs will probably take over in the consumr market (Score:5, Interesting)
So what will happen is pretty obvious. Laptops are going to push SSD storage into the mainstream, giving it the critical mass needed to start the research bandwagon rolling, and 5-10 years after that happens hard drives will become the 'new' tape storage and most production systems will be using SSDs.
Even more pointedly, with power costs being the premium concern for data centers these days, and the hard drive being the only thing left in the computer that can't be engineered down to near 0 power consumption when idle (short of spinning it down, which has its own problems), my expectation is that large commercial concerns will see a huge cost benefit to using SSD storage despite the higher front-end cost of purchasing it.
-Matt