Dell To Offer Win XP On Consumer PCs Again 447
phalse phace writes "With so many consumers still asking for Windows XP to be loaded on Dell's consumer level PCs, the PC maker has finally decided to offer that as an option. 'Like most computer makers, Dell switched nearly entirely to Vista-based systems following Microsoft's mainstream launch of the operating system in January. However, the company said its customers have been asking for XP as part of its IdeaStorm project, which asks customers to help the company come up with product ideas. Starting immediately, Dell said, it is adding XP Home and Professional as options on four Inspiron laptop models and two Dimension desktops.' The Dell models with the Windows XP option are: Dell Inspiron 1405, 1705, 1505, and 1501; and Dell Dimension E520 and E521."
Well Duh (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Well Duh (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Well Duh (Score:4, Funny)
- way over priced
- released much later than everyone was told
- no one can afford the hardware to run it
so i'd say that MS are trying to keep it.Re:Well Duh (Score:5, Informative)
WinFS, anyone?
Re:Well Duh (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Well Duh (Score:5, Interesting)
The only positive feature for Vista, so far, is the built in chess game. For the price, you can get a better one on XP.
Re:Well Duh (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Well Duh (Score:5, Interesting)
What I've found about the thrashing: It happens only at first boot, and when closing programs or otherwise freeing large amounts of RAM. Also: If you, Joe Fucking User, stop trying to fix the fucking computer and just use the thing, it will eventually stop thrashing.
After that, programs tend load fast. It's called SuperFetch, and it's supposed help[1]. Quit being paranoid.
[1]: Of course it seems like it's not helping, but that's not been Vista's fault in my experience. Rather, it seems to be a competition at boot time between SuperFetch intelligently trying to load data for applications that I'm actually likely to use, and those applications themselves doing their own foolhardy preload[2]. Since the hard drive head can only be in one place at a time, this presents a problem. It should be noted that Vista rather uniquely supports several priority levels for disk IO, and that SuperFetch appears to operate at low priority. It doesn't seem to get in the way at all, once you kill the third-party preloads and try to ignore the disk activity.[3]
[2]: OpenOffice is a horrible example of this, trying to push its bloated self into RAM at boot time by default. Other common offenders are, of course, Microsoft Office and Adobe Acrobat Reader.
[3]: Also: Almost all of this activity (including indexing) stops cold when running on battery, where runtime is generally preferred over performance. The whole thing is really pretty well behaved. Try it sometime. (incidentally, I get about an extra hour of real run-time from my Inspiron 6000 when running Vista instead of XP.)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
WHY THE HELL ARE YOU RUNNING IT IF IT CHUGS?
I thought that was a blatantly obvious question to ask.
Dell vs. Microsoft (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Is Windows essential to Dell's business model of building and selling PCs?
2. Is Dell essential to Microsoft's business model of establishing a monopoly and locking in customers?
In an ideal world, it's obvious that #2 would be more true than #1, given the huge percentage of the PC market that Dell occupies. However, customers still demand Windows, and while Microsoft has the power to raise the wholesale prices for Dell, and render the latter unable to compete in the low-margin world of hardware sales, Dell is still quite dependent on directives from Redmond.
This latest trend just serves to underline the inherent instability in this partnership. In this context, it is not surprising that Dell is looking into Linux, since proliferation of the latter will benefit Dell in that it will limit the extent to which Dell depends on Microsoft in the long run; in the short run it'll give Dell more bargaining power with regards to wholesale Windows price negotiations.
Re:Dell vs. Microsoft (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember that PC hardware stands on its own and free operating systems exist to drive it. However, Windows does not stand on its own and requires hardware to run.
Add to that the fact that many, many people do not distinguish between the OS and the PC (or even the "computer" and the "hard drive" for that matter, but I digress) and they'll blame problems with --anything-- to do with their PC squarely on Dell, and you have a culture that strongly associates the OEM with everything computer-related.
When you have the company with the greater amount of mindshare also creating the components that are more flexible (versus the OS which, as previously mentioned, requires hardware) you have a situation in favor of the OEM telling the software company what for.
Simply put, it only takes a few commercials from Dell about "the power of open source" to get people doubting Microsoft.
YMMV, of course, and this is just my experience dealing with the public for 7 years working in a library. Thank Cthulhu that's over.
Re:Dell vs. Microsoft (Score:5, Interesting)
Simply put, it only takes a few commercials from Dell about "the power of open source" to get people doubting Microsoft.
Wow, I never saw it that way. Of course Dell would need to grow a spine before ever doing that. That means saying. "Screw you Microsoft, I don't care paying a premium for your licenses.... Brand recognition will save us!" Not very likely to happen... Interesting none the less.
Re:Dell vs. Microsoft (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, I think it could, they just have to get their timing right, have a decent distro or 2, and a little cash in the bank to weather the storm. If done right, it would put them in a great position before the inevitable meltdown happens.
Think about it from dell's point of view: Would you rather lose some money and market share while helping stake a solid and tenable future position, or watch your supplier (MS) drive everybody to the competition (Apple)? Dell might not make as much profit with a PC loaded with Ubuntu rather than Windows (at least int he short term), but they make no money if the customer buys a Mac.
Re:Dell vs. Microsoft (Score:5, Insightful)
As far as games: They follow the money.
The problem with games and Linux is that if a game runs in linux, it can be trivially copied to another machine (blame the geeks) so copy protection and all that does not work at all. Running as a service also is not so hot. See valve's latest troubles.
Ultimately, the Personal Computer (PC) is not a gaming machine to most people. It's a tool to Get Shit Done (term paper, email, research, or work-for-hire), and those people are Dell's bread and butter.
I suggest that Dell is going to put together a Ubuntu-ready line of desktops and laptops, price them aggressively, and cause the Microsoft meltdown. Remember: The best way to predict the future is to invent it. (Alan Kay)
I am not saying they will be successful, but I can guarantee Michael is thinking real hard on how to make it work. By August 1st 2007 is my guess, but maybe sooner (no later than that for sure).
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
You're forgetting... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That was Microsoft's ideology with the Zune, and everyone knows what happened there...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Younger/more-computer-literate people are getting smarter about it and at least know that if it's slow it could be a virus. If a virus scan shows them clear, though, they
Microsoft runs that show (Score:5, Informative)
Role play it out. If MS refused to let Dell sell Windows, then Dell would die (or shrink significantly). If Dell refused to sell Windows, then Dell would die (or shrink significantly). Microsoft has plenty of other vendors to sell their OS, Dell doesn't have plenty of in-demand OS's to sell (trust me- I wish linux counted, but that is nowhere near the volume business of selling XP/Vista).
For future scenarios, this is the basic rule of supply chain economics. Think of this chart.
Producer -> MiddleMan -> Distributor
As you go towards the right, your power increases in all cases EXCEPT where someone to the left has a monopoloy (or somewhat close to it). Wallmart is all the way to the right and all they sell are commodities, that's why Wall mart can gouge their suppliers. Dell wishes they were in the same boat, but they have a monopoly to the left.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Both of those are true, and neither one is being proposed here. Dell currently gets a discount off the normal OEM price in exchange for being Windows only. The most Microsoft could do is to revoke that discount. If MS stopped selling Windows directly to Dell, they could buy it from a wholesaler, and/or sue Microsoft for monopolistic practi
Re: (Score:3)
This simply indicates to Microsoft that The Public (tm) have rejected their forced upgrade pipeline. If anything, they should consider it as a blessing that rather than flocking in droves to the ACTUAL competition, that they are simply preferring to choose a different (and for many purposes, superior) product from the same vendor.
In any other industry, consumers are encouraged to buy Last Year's
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
I don't even have a machine that can run it. The best machine I have was bought 3 months ago. (Other two in the household are both from 2003 and work 100% fine!) It has XP Media Center and was on sale. It does have a sticker saying "Vista Capable" - removed by now- but the fine print on the packing box said pretty much "you won't be getting any of the fancy stuff that Vista does even if you install it on this machine". I should have taken a picture of that text, it was priceless.
So, I wouldn't dare
Re:Well Duh (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Well Duh (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
[Cancel] [Allow]
Re: (Score:2)
So what does this mean, Vista is a failure? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:So what does this mean, Vista is a failure? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
My daughter to the rescue, buy a copy of XP and install. But, no drivers for the RAID array for XP that she could find. I got involved wa
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Wow (Score:5, Insightful)
Good, Maybe MS will take a hint....
Re:Wow (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Wow (Score:5, Insightful)
dont forget! hate leads to suffering!
Re:Wow (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Wow (Score:4, Insightful)
A clean-ish break from XP is actually a good idea, but the implementation didnt go off so great. I wouldnt be surprised if by the time Vista hits SP1 it will have some love come its way, the same way XP did, which from what I remember on these boards was "just a new 2000 skin, dont buy it" "ripoff" "conspiracy to blah blah" "raw ports will destroy the net" "home version wont join a domain, run!!" "system restore didnt work in ME so it wont work in XP" "WMP and DRM!" etc.
Re:Wow (Score:4, Informative)
When it comes to usability/ stability in major versions of windows, it goes something like this:
Win2k (any version)
Win2k3
WinXP Pro (only recently was I convinced to not lump XP Pro in with home)
WinNT 4
Win98SE
WinXP Home
WinNT 3.51
Win98
Win95
Vista
Win3.x
WinME
Win2.x
I never tried Windows 1.0
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Win98 had a lot of the same problems, but Win98SE is still damn functional; USB support out of the box, Great DOS support, good 32-bit coverage, and pretty muc
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Have you tried Windows 98 recently? You'll be surprised how snappy it is on a Celeron 300MHz, much faster than XP on 3GHz machine.
I remember people boo-ed at XP's system requirements for a long time when it came out. It was Vista all over again. Learn from your past, and best of all, don't forget it.
Windows 98 was a nice OS for its time, XP was a nice OS for its time, and Vista may be a nice OS for it's
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Soooo, you are saying MS should release yet another OS immediately? Ah, I see. That way everyone will hate the new one even more than they now hate Vista!
Brilliant!
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Not sure it is about hate... (Score:2)
Re:Wow (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Good, Maybe MS will take a hint....
Ha! I hope you're right but their track record taking hints is notoriously bad. I'll believe there's a chance they'll listen when Ballmer has a sudden desire to spend more time with his family.
Re:Wow (Score:5, Funny)
I can feel your hatred... It makes you strong... Gives you focus... A powerful Sith Lord you will become!
Does it hurt Microsoft financially... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
MS has a massive dev cost to recoup for Vista. If nobody buys Vista then that's a failure to make back the money they spent.
Re: (Score:2)
yes, and no. The dev cost is spread out across all future versions of Windows as well. It's not like they're going to throw vista away and start over on a different version (no matter how much I think they should do so) :)
Re:Does it hurt Microsoft financially... (Score:5, Insightful)
However, if they spend a billion dollars developing Windows Vista, and then they only sell $800M worth of Vista-related crap, because everyone else is still buying XP (because Vista sucks that badly), then they've effectively 'lost' $200M on Vista, because it didn't generate as much in profit as it took to develop. It's not lost in the same sense of the money you blew on blackjack in Vegas is 'lost,' but it shows that Vista was a very, very bad investment, and it'll probably make them not meet their projections to their investors.
It doesn't really hurt them as much as make them look like a bunch of idiots.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, that hurts them much more in the long term than the money hit hurts them now.
Microsoft cannot compete on features, so it has to compete on marketing. That will be much-impaired if they look like the bunch of incompetent dumbfucks they are.
This incident is a huge success for everyone but Microsoft on that basis alone. This latest straw, with Dell once again offering Windows XP because customers overwhelmingly prefer it
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
As you say, the only rationale for Vista has been that M$
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, I'd expect damage-control to kick in.
Expect to see "each copy of XP is sold with a limited Vista license" type of ploy; then Microsoft can still claim to be selling record numbers of Vista licenses and leave it implied that they're actually for Vista instead of XP.
Save for delayed return on R&D costs on Vista, this still doesn't really hurt Microsoft.
Yes and no (Score:2, Interesting)
If they don't recoup it, heads may roll inside Microsoft.
But the difference between
$600,000,000 in Vista licenses plus $0 in new XP licenses
vs
$400,000,000 in Vista licenses plus $200,000,000 in new XP licenses
is a wash, assuming other things like support costs, long-term customer retention, etc. are all about the same.
The numbers above are 100% made up from thin-air concentrate.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If anything people were not buying a PC because it would only come with Vista. Which means no sale at all for Microsoft. So Microsoft overall makes more money by at least selling another copy of XP.
Of course there are secondary costs, like lower sales figures
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
On the large scale, yeah, it doesn't matter if people buy XP or Vista right? The same number of dollars still float into Microsoft.
But look at it this way: Vista will have been a total flop if this occurs, and the books at Redmond will be looking VERY VERY red for this project. Considering Windows is one of MS's supposed guaranteed cash cows, this is going to be absolute hell on investor confidence, and stock is going to tumble. *That* then becomes the real financial loss for MS.
Investor Confidence (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Does it hurt Microsoft financially... whether we buy VIsta or XP?
In the short term, they don't care where the money comes from. In the long term, buying XP gives them more potential for incremental Windows upgrade sales, but at the same time is one less user that is subjected to their all new lock-ins and leverages into new markets. If you don't buy Vista, how can they take over the portable document space from Adobe? Strategically, they'd probably prefer everyone switch to Vista as soon as possible so they can start leveraging control into the new markets it is illega
Re:Does it hurt Microsoft financially... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's a very good question, and in spite of all the theories people will throw around, I'm not sure Microsoft even knows the answer.
On the one hand, they're still getting paid. On the other hand, I assume they're getting paid less for the copy of XP (but who knows?).
They could, theoretically, end up getting paid more if they can convince people to upgrade a year from now (XP OEM license + Vista retail license > Vista OEM license). However, most users do not upgrade their OS, and the lack of Vista adoption shows that people might be looking elsewhere for their "next generation" OS. Most likely this is good news for Apple, but also it might mean an increased market share for Linux. People are always looking for new things, and if IT departments don't like where Microsoft is going, it could mean they'll start looking at Linux as a way to upgrade existing computers (without the hefty system requirements).
Plus, Microsoft has been trying to wrap products together in various ways. For example, Windows Update gives me errors in Vista if I try to use Office 2003, but not Office 2007. Call me paranoid, but at this point I would believe that this isn't entirely coincidental. Also, Office 2007 wants me to install Microsoft's desktop search, which also pushes me towards their "Live" services. They spent a lot of time on Vista making its DRM better so they could collect more licenses on Windows Media formats. Microsoft has been so successful in the past due to this sort of approach-- buying one thing means trouble unless you buy in to their other products. So even if they aren't missing much money in Vista, they might be losing money on things they hoped to push on customers using Vista as the vehicle.
Either way, I'm sure it's embarrassing for Microsoft. They spent years working on an upgrade to their flagshit* product, and no one seems to want it. That's not a financial hurt, but I'm sure it hurts.
* it's a typo, but I'm leaving it.
Comments/Polls (Score:5, Funny)
"Choose an OPERATING SYSTEM:
1. Vista 32 or 64 Home
2. Vista Ultimate
3. Anything But Vista."
Re: (Score:2)
"Choose an OPERATING SYSTEM:
1. Vista 32 or 64 Home
2. Vista Ultimate
3. Windows XP
4. Windows 2000
5. Windows NT
6. Fedora
7. Ubuntu
8. FreeDOS
9. FreeBSD
10. BeOS"
That would be verrrrry niiice.
Re:Comments/Polls (Score:5, Funny)
"Choose an OPERATING SYSTEM:
1. Vista 32 or 64 Home
2. Vista Ultimate
3. Windows XP
4. Windows 2000
5. Windows NT
6. Fedora
7. Ubuntu
8. FreeDOS
9. FreeBSD
10. BeOS"
11. Mac OS X
12. I am feeling lucky!
Whee! (Score:3, Funny)
Dell Microsoft? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
PROFIT!!! (Score:2)
2. Offer something other than Microsoft's flagship product preloaded.
3. ???
4. PROFIT!!!
Oh wait, that actually works.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Vista lives up to it's name (Score:5, Funny)
-
You are moderating this comment -1 "Retarded", Allow or Deny?
"Vista Ready" (Score:3, Interesting)
Bravo Dell, bravo. Now if you could make just one more leap and offer Linux, we'd be all set.
Wrong, wrong and...wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
Likewise, we may be ready for Linux everywhere, but a LOT of people wouldn't be. You think Vista is giving people reason to complain? Try being thrust onto Linux unwittingly. Try having to explain
Dumb People (Score:2, Insightful)
Vista is without a doubt the future of the Windows platform; if you don't want to partake just yet, hold off buying a new machine altogether. Demanding a new machine with WinXP is just irrational.
Re:Dumb People (Score:5, Insightful)
It does not matter whether XP is older than Vista. There are plenty of products on the market that are newer and at the same time much worse than the products that preceeded them and the customer is correct to try and get an older better product than to buy into the 'newer must be better' crap.
XP works for many people, and apparently it works for so many people that Dell had to change its way, this does not imply that people are dumb for choosing an older OS, it implies that XP is a superiour product.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What I'm suggesting is that spending money for a license to use obsolete software is a bad move. Even if there are growing pains with Vista, it's incredibly naive to think those issues won't be sorted out within a few months. On the other hand, Windows XP is going to be looking very obsolete and dated within the year.
Re:Dumb People (Score:5, Insightful)
I haven't met anyone who has even remotely suggested that Vista was something to crave... especially in the business realm.
Sure if your a gamer, and can foresee that all the new games will be DX10... Vista is a better bet. If your a business and have a hundred XP machines, putting your new secretary on a Vista box is just a pain to manage . And updating the entire network is out cuz the hardware won't support it.
Right now... Vista is a LOSING proposition for businesses... and not really that appealing for general purpose users. The only market I can say would be stupid for not going with Vista is the gamer market, and only for the reasons you hinted at... eventually it may be needed.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What I'm suggesting is that spending money for a license to use obsolete software is a bad move. - you are saying XP is obsolete as if saying it makes it so. I have a machine with XP at home and this is what I have on a station at work, I don't see them as obsole
Re:Dumb People (Score:5, Interesting)
Dell sells to a metric assload of businesses. Most businesses are not migrating to Vista any time soon.
Additionally, many users REQUIRE software that does not operate properly in Vista... thus they REQUIRE windows XP instead of Vista to have a computer of any value.
Sure they could choose not to buy new computers... but for a company on a strict 3-4 year lease rotation on their dell machines, or a business that is adding employees, or any number of other situations where waiting is not an option, Windows XP is a must in order to maintain uniformity.
For example, I have managed networks with several hundred machines broken in 3 groups... each group was on a 36 month lease, so over the course of 3 years, every machine would be replaced with a new machine. A software upgrade would never be done until 100% of our hardware was capable of running the new software... even if that meant waiting to rotate the oldest hardware out. With the new hardware demands of Vista, I have a feeling it will be at least 2 years before organizations that operate the way ours did has the hardware in place to perform a complete migration.
Re: (Score:2)
There are more reasons people buy PCs than just for home. Vista's caused us no end of grief on the small-med business front, and we still have enough problems with day to day use let alone deal with teething issues.
Plus we do not have the option of not buying a new system. Companies grow, companies hire new people, new people need PCs, those new PCs are coming from Dell and we're finding a way to put XP on them, dam
Does this remind anyone else of Windows Me? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Does this remind anyone else of Windows Me? (Score:4, Funny)
This could be a nice start (Score:3, Insightful)
From what I've seen from Vista (specifically an install of Vista on a Sony Viao that refused to run the DVD authoring software because the Sony's video wasn't up to snuff), I am not impressed by it. Furthermore, when has Microsoft released an OS that did not need a major overhaul (other than Win2k) soon after it's release?
There is far too much media hype over Vista, this early in it's release. I can't wait until the equivalent of an SP2 to come out for Vista, so I can chuckle like a maniac. I just wish Dell would expand their offer to all their products.
Does that mean I can finally get (Score:3, Funny)
It has become clear (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It has become clear (Score:4, Funny)
I kid, I kid.
Vista Compatibility (Score:2)
F'rinstance, I just shelled out for a pair of 3D shutter glasses. Now, my graphics card has no drivers for it yet, and I don't blame MS for that, because it's NVidias fault. But it looks like the fancy Aero interface will prevent them from working in a windowed application, which may rule out their use for things like CAD and molecular modelling, which I had an interest in.
My joystick drivers are utterly fubar.
Getting a
anecdotal evidence... (Score:2, Informative)
Is it just me, or... (Score:3, Interesting)
Is Dell becoming brave in the face of MS? First they seem to get serious about putting Linux on non-server systems, and now they're bending to customer demand, putting XP back on some systems.
The rest of the OEM's surely see what a disappointment Vista is, both technically and in terms of sales. If the rest of them joined Dell in standing up to the Redmond behemoth, the result would probably benefit everyone. Except MS. A lower MS tax, and ways to avoid it altogether.
I wouldn't be surprised if the next time Dell renegotiates their OEM contract, the terms are more balanced.
Just let them buy XP (Score:2)
Keep giving out the coupons for Vista upgrades. If MSFT ever manages to get the bugs out of Vista they'll use their coupon. Or they'll buy a Mac. But at least if they have a coupon they'll be tempted to try it first.
Vista reminds me of the dork in college who threw a big party and no one showed up.
I got a refund for Vista from Dell US (Score:5, Interesting)
So when the machine finally arrived, I declined the licensing terms of Vista (I have my own licensed copy of XP) and I emailed Dell for a refund. Two emails later I got $27. This is about half of what the guy in Germany got from Dell Germany (plus he got $8 USD for Works, which Dell US didn't bother to comment on when I asked for that refund).
Just my $27 worth.
http://www.headsallempty.org/wordpress [headsallempty.org]
Dell threatened to load Linux (Score:3, Insightful)
All hardware vendors have the same problem (Score:4, Insightful)
So, you buy a new computer with Vista, and your old computer with XP is faster. You call your vendor and you ask him to explain. The help-desks can testify: the user satisfaction is low and they tend to blame the vendor. So the assistant tells you that you should add more memory to your computer... you have 512Mb? You should have 1Gb, or maybe 2! And then, only then, your Vista may run at the same speed in a brand new computer!
This is hurting everybody's business, and Microsoft asks vendors for patience: "when the modest computer raise to an Intel Core 2 Duo with 2Gb nobody will remember these days... but until then you have to stand by me!"
games? games. (Score:5, Funny)
You know how I know this? First, I imagine that I were a huge fucking prick. Then, I ponder how I could screw the world with my massive pricktitude. The logical answer is, make the next DirectX Vista-only. But, in the grand scheme of things, I'm glad that Microsoft will make this move. Windows users obviously need a dick to come out of the screen and smack them in the face daily, or they feel unloved. They are the Mister Garrison of users, I say.
Re: (Score:2)
dd if=/dev/zero count=1 of=/dev/sda
Done! I don't think I'd pay someone to zero out my MBR.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)