Zune's Wireless Almost Totally Worthless

mikesd81 writes to mention an article at Engadget exploring what the Zune's wireless is good for. It turns out that, at least for now, that's not much. From the article: "You can search for and find other Zunes nearby. You can send songs / albums for the 3 x 3 trial. Songs past the three days / listens are deleted at next sync, but catalogued on your PC for record-keeping should you want to purchase them later. No word on whether Microsoft is going to keep track of which files are traded. You can send and receive image files for 'unlimited viewing.' (Oh, so copyrighted images aren't worth DRMing?) You can't: Connect to the internet, Download songs directly from the Zune store via WiFi, Sync to your computer via WiFi."

Makes me wonder

Whenever I hear about crap DRM like this, it really makes me wonder what kind of technological world we'd live in if we didn't have these restrictions. We'd probably have fully wireless players that could play any format we wanted and could stream songs to anybody around us using a P2P streaming format to distribute the bandwidth/battery power. There would probably be a lot more diverse music going around as well. One can only wonder...

Re:Makes me wonder

Total wireless free sharing hyper-media super-internet. YouTube on legs.

Coincidentally, that's going to be the Zune 2. Or at least, the Zune 2 is going to approach it. The Zune 5 might have something similar to it, and they'll claim to have invented it too.

Re:Makes me wonder

hehe, it probably will. On another note, think about how nice it would have been if DRM would have been existant throughout history. Try to imagine archeaology with a past that had used DRM, encrypted scrolls, dutch masters that you can only see with the right kind of glasses, statues that desintegrate after being viewed more than three times on the same day by the same people.

It's telling that our culture seems to put emphasis on how shortlived it really is, instead of thinking of the future and how we can best preserve our legacy for those that will come after us.

I'd hate to be in the shoes of a 23rd century researcher trying to play back a 2005 issue SONY drm'd compact disc or the last copy of a tune surviving on some ancient file server in encrypted apple iTunes format.

At least make it mandatory that media have to be deposited in DRM free format with some agency to make sure that the future will have access to todays cashcows (cash mice ? Mickey comes to mind), just in case congress at some remote point in the future decides that Walts estate has earned enough dough.

Re:23rd Century

I disagree.

There is a fair amount of material that is not DRM'd.

If you look at the past of human history, you see societies that we know lots about, and societies we know little about.

The societies we know lots about wrote material down in not particularly difficult to translate media.
The societies we know little about wrote down little, and what they did write was indicperiable. They remain a mystery.

Phish, for example, will last for a long time, regardless of whether or not people like it. It's DRM free for copying, so it can remain alive forever.

Metallica, on the other hand, will vanish in the sands of history, because no one will bother with a player that can run the discs, and after the last encryption code vanishes, no one will bother to decrypt it, except as a potential academic product in the annals of some obscure journal.

We won't see the whole 20th century go into the darkness. We will see GPL code that lives in the future as library/museum type stuff, while Windows will only live on in pictures/videos.

Re:Makes me wonder

On another note, think about how nice it would have been if DRM would have been existant throughout history. Try to imagine archeaology with a past that had used DRM, encrypted scrolls, dutch masters that you can only see with the right kind of glasses, statues that desintegrate after being viewed more than three times on the same day by the same people.

It's telling that our culture seems to put emphasis on how shortlived it really is, instead of thinking of the future and how we can best preserve our legacy for those that will come after us.

There are people who are trying to preserve things for the future. I heard a story on NPR perhaps a couple of years ago about a group of people who were creating brand new 78 rpm records of current music. The reason was for preservaton because a 78 RPM records is apparently extrememly easy to play even without much technology. Personally, I fail to see how the music of eminem is going to help future generations living after the collapse of technology (perhaps as a warning of what to avoid?)

Our society may ultimately be remembered only for the work of those individuals.

Who is to say that our view of past societies isn't mostly based on things that those societies chose to preserve for the long term. They may very well have had other artworks that were shorter lasting that we won't know about.

I was reading about the history of photography. One thing I learned was that there were photographic techniques created in the 1700s that could take a photograph, but they had not yet developed technology to "fix" the photograph permanently. So, those images only lasted minutes in most cases.

Re:Makes me wonder

I'd hate to be in the shoes of a 23rd century researcher trying to play back a 2005 issue SONY drm'd compact disc or the last copy of a tune surviving on some ancient file server in encrypted apple iTunes format.

I'm picturing the end of A.I., when the future robots find Haley Joel Osment at the bottom of the frozen sea, and when they also find the 2005 Sony CD, one sticks the CD in its chest and is instantly rooted, clutching its head moaning "Damn XP legacy code!!"

Re:Makes me wonder

And the people who created all this content got paid how exactly?

Nice try AC, but they get paid for this content because with the increased sharing, people are exposed to much more new music than they normally would (think P2P effect on speed), and therefore find more bands they like and want to support. Thus, they end up going to see more live shows, and purchasing more merchandise.

For the bands that are smart enough to go with a label that supports sharing, or are Indie, they will thrive because thats where the majority of their income came from in the past and this would amplify that. Remember, traditionally bands really make their money touring, not from music sales which the labels gouge them on.

Re:Makes me wonder

Also trying to point out that the vast majority of Slashdotters, including the one to whom I replied, produce nothing in the way of copyrightable content, let alone make it their primary occupation, yet want to sit on the sidelines and offer advice as to how the actual producers should conduct themselves in their business.

Hi, I'm a professional content creator. The majority of my income is from creating copyrighted works. Does that somehow make my opinions more logical or factual?

All the while we the producers are happy with the current arrangement, as are most normals.

Are you joking? Most of "we the producers" are not happy or sad or much of anything because we're long since dead. The majority of copyrighted works are not available to the public, at all. They are not for sale. Take a look at motown records, for example. I think something like 5% of their catalogue of copyrighted music is available for sale, and they own the majority of the works in an entire genre of American music. I don't know about you, but I doubt those artists would be too happy about that and those of us that would like to listen to it sure aren't.

As for the previous poster, he's entirely right. Copyright costs most musicians money, rather than makes it for them. In order to reach a mainstream audience they have to go through the RIAA, and for most artists that means they pay money for the privilege of handing over all their copyrights. They make their money with live performances and merchandise. For the average musician, no copyright at all would probably increase their revenue.

The point of all of this is not to say that copyright is not a useful incentive in some cases, it is to make you aware that the current implementation of copyright in conjunction with cartels that have monopolized the distribution channels is broken and needs to be fixed.

Re:Makes me wonder

The point of the whole free-culture position is that it does *not make economic sense to purchase what is downloadable for free. We're on the same side of that fence. Those who wish to make money need to find something non-digital to sell. The experience of a live show is one of many hundreds of possible examples.

"The study of economics proposes that people respond to incentives"
---
"According to the econodwarf's vision, each human being is an individual possessing "incentives," which can be retrospectively unearthed by imagining the state of the bank account at various times. So in this instance the econodwarf feels compelled to object that without the rules I am lampooning, there would be no incentive to create the things the rules treat as property: without the ability to exclude others from music there would be no music, because no one could be sure of getting paid for creating it."

"The dwarf's basic problem is that "incentives" is merely a metaphor, and as a metaphor to describe human creative activity it's pretty crummy"

http://emoglen.law.columbia.edu/my_pubs/anarchism. html [columbia.edu]

Re:Makes me wonder

I *hate* drm, and the distrust of the end user that comes with it.

I'm working on a daz.com [daz.com] site that will hopefully solve that problem once and for all.

It is my nsho that record companies are dinosaurs that just don't quite realize they're already extinct and it will be my great pleasure to help nail shut the coffins.

Check out Janis Ian vs the RIAA to see how bad it really is.

You don't know shit, TROLL

If I plug my iPod into someone elses PC and try to access the library, I will get a friendly iTunes prompt asking if I want to attach my iPod to that PC

iTunes will ask you if you want to use iTunes to automatically sync the strange iPod you connected. You decline and now you are free to move any and all songs from the PC (including Apple DRM'ed ones) on the iPod.

Thanks for playing!

Re:Makes me wonder

I've got a Modest Proposal to solve that problem, if you want to hear it...

So?

This from the company that brought us Bob and Clippy. MS is so consumed with keep aliances with companies by having heavily restricted DRM methods, it should come to no one as a shocker that the Zune is basically a "me, too" to the iPod, except it doesn't even do what the iPod can do.

Anything that has DRM and fails is a good thing.

Re:So?

Apple's preferred format, AAC, is not propriety, it is a full standard. Try looking something up before you type, or stop spreading FUD. Just because a company chooses not to add AAC support to it's players doesn't make it propriety. It's probably as free as mp3, so I don't see your logic. Anyway, you can rip music into AAC, Lossless compressed, wave, aiff, and mp3. Oh my god, choices! Guess what, the ipod can play all those formats too.

Apple may not have a nice gui for copying songs back off your ipod, but that doesn't matter. They don't *stop* you from doing it, not on a mac, not on windows, that's the point. There are no secret drivers with hidden APIs that override the system ones. They are just in a folder marked "invisible". Nor do they encrypt all songs when you transfer it to your ipod. They just copy them exactly.

--Sadly, text alone cannot convey the depths of my sarcasm.

Re:So?

It's not "randomizing them", it's hashing them. And yes, it's on-purpose because it makes searching for the specific song faster. (Whether or not it actually IS faster or not might be debated, but the point is that's why it's done. It's not random, and it's not pointless, and it has nothing to do with obfuscating them.)

And if you copy those 4343ddacs332.aac back to another copy of iTunes, iTunes will automatically rename the file based on the ID3 tags in it. (Which the iPod does not change in any way.) So it still works fine in any player that accepts that file type and uses ID3 tags instead of file names to organize files.

Custom Firmware

Can't wait for homebrew\open source firmware for the Zune. DRM free sharing over WiFi :D

selling music via wireless

Wouldn't an obvious business model be to sell music over the internet and allow people to buy/download music direct on their media player instead of needing a PC. This makes the device sellable to those without PCs. You can then do deals with wireless hotspot providers to offer your users wireless access like nintendo has done.

Good... No great

This sounds like a great way to inform the general public on why DRM blows. Look at all the cool functionality in there, imagine the awesome potential! Now... here's how we castrated it. How long till they crack it and get OSS running on it? Will there be wifi drivers for the hardware?

still waiting

I'm still waiting for any mention of whether the Zune only lets you trade music purchased from the Zune Marketplace, or if it will allow you to trade any music files you have. I've seen endless speculation on what happens when it DRMs certain songs (see the recent Creative Commons fracas), but I have yet to see hard confirmation one way or the other on whether it will even allow you to share songs not purchased from MS.

Re:It won't take long...

Look at all the trouble Apple went through to make getting songs off the iPod and onto a 'new' system impossible.

Not true; Apple didn't do anything at all to prevent this, they just didn't write software to do it. The files are stored on the iPod in their original form, but with a database index as the name. The database isn't at all difficult to read.

Almost totally useless _for users_

For the major stakeholders, i.e. IP holders, it's quite useful. It's just useless to _people_.

I, for one, am happy and proud to be part of this next Microsoft step into the 'products that people actively try and avoid' space. Further initiatives are to include a portable game platform that makes the sound of a crying baby, and a new mouse that randomly fires blasts of deadly, mutagenic radiation, all the time, for no reason. Also Vista.

It's all a difference in philosophy. Old Microsoft was about _giving_ people what they wanted, in the hope that they would then _give_ money in return. They would send people out who would discover needs (like the need for a Euro sign character, which the planet's committees and standards groups never grasped the point of) and then fulfil those needs. This kinda sorta worked a bit, but it was a bit pedestrian. Since 2000, New Microsoft has been focusing on actively _taking_ money out of the marketplace and _avoiding_ giving value in return. The Zune is part of this -- see, it has complex and interesting features, but they're there to prevent you from extracting value from it. It's like when they suddenly started charging for the Office / .NET interop package; they created useful functionality, in such a way that nobody could actually derive benefit from it.

Basically, what MS understands that nobody else on the planet really grasps is that V + P = K, where:

V = value delivered to the rest of the world
P = profit for MS
K = some constant

See how decreasing V is just like increasing P? It's brilliant once you get it. So this Zune serves to drive V down just a little bit further. Next step? PROFIT!!!

When I say 'profit' I must admit I mean 'ever decreasing relevancy'. But that's because I'm not a technical visionary like Steve Ballmer.

Story repeats itself...

Microsoft knows that this player is going to be hacked. As in windows piracy will be its success, people will buy it because it will be able to share music illegally with an illegal firmware. Once spread microsoft will close it a little more and open a "itune" online store rival.
Story repeats itself...

Unrealistic?

I'm not sure I would *want* to be able to purchase songs via the wifi connection on my Zune. After all; I lose it or one of my friends borrows it for a while, they could really rack up some charges on my account. Sure, you could require a password be entered on the Zune - but with what? The touch wheel? That seems pretty silly to me. Further, there is a complaint about not being able to sync to your PC via wifi. Well, since the majority of wifi networks aren't secure - or require long, difficult to enter wifi keys (again, how do you input a 128-bit, 40-character ASCII WEP key on your Zune - or worse, a WPA key at 64 characters!) Sure, you could set that up on your computer and it would program the wifi settings on the Zune during a sync, but that brings forth the question - who would want to sync via wifi? I don't know - if I'm going to be syncing my unit up, I probably just setup Zune Media Center with a few new files I downloaded... I'm at my PC anyway, what's the big deal about dropping the unit in the dock while I'm there and waiting for it to sync? Most wifi routers in use today are still 11Mbps, too - any idea how long it would take to sync a Zune with even 50 new songs via wifi? I hope you brought your AC adapter - it will be a while. It seems like people are just poking holes in this for the point of poking holes. I mean - internet browsing? Maybe if there's a demand, but already in the USA, most people have internet enabled cell phones with pretty decent screens - and very few take advantage of true internet browsing on their phones. Whatever happens when this is released will be interesting, but I just wish people would stop acting like "they could do it better" - if so, why haven't they - or Sandisk, or Samsung, or Creative...?

Trouble with Wifi?

The trouble with wifi, although it seems like a great idea, is that its slow, takes a lot of battery power, and you can't charge the device using it. They could do a lot more with it, but it would kill the battery of a portable device fairly quickly.

I really can't figure this device out. Knowing how the Zune is an MS only device (Linux and Mac users need not apply), its seems likely to me the reason for zune is an "get locked into MS Windows/ Windows Media Player".
MS is not making a profit on the device, and content sale revenues are tiny.

Re:Trouble with Wifi?

It's not about immediate profit, it's about control. Someone is making money in a computer-related market, and Microsoft doesn't control it. They have no piece of the iTunes/iPod action, and apparently they don't like that. They'll be willing to lose money on the venture all the way up until they've established control, and then they'll rake users over the coals once users have been locked into the Microsoft platform.

That's what Microsoft is after these days-- an all inclusive end-to-end dominance on anything resembling a computer. Handhelds, MP3 players, servers, desktops, refrigerators, web browsers, e-mail, game consoles, etc. The result will be that, any emerging computer market, no matter what the market is, will need to go through Microsoft, and Microsoft will dominate it.

Microsoft is not in the business of providing consumer products or OEM software-- they're in the business of dominating markets and eliminating competition.

Microsoft's penchant for tying up Windows...

Zune is a progressive attitude from Microsoft. However with Microsoft's penchant for tying Windows into everything, Zune will soon become hard-bloatware by the time it releases.
As it stands today, Zune (even with its crippled WiFi) MAY prove a formudable competitor to iPod, if the screen resolution and usage factor is good and NO bloatware.

The KISS attitude is a far cry for Microsoft. Their products tend to be bloatware almost always:

Expect the following "feature" from Zune when its released:
1. WiFi connection to internet (thus opening up way for new Worms and viruses).
2. Ability to add an SD Card.
3. Runs Pocket PC OS version 9.9 !
4. Comes with 30 GB hard-disk out of which 25GB is available to you! Rest 5GB is for the OS.
5. Comes with 128MB internal RAM !!! To run Zune Pocket PC OS.
6. Comes with a voice-activated interface that's enabled by default thus allowing your train pal to just say Maroon to make it switch playlists and start searching for Maroon 5 songs.
7. Comes with mouse-pointers.
8. Comes with virtual keyboard.
9. Plays AVI, WMV files inside Media Player inside Zune. Microsoft forgets Zune itself plays WMV natively.

For Microsoft multi-platform means Windows Mobile, Windows CE, Windows 98 SE, Windows NT, Windows XP, Windows MCE, Windows Vista. All OS have to co-exist with one another and use same API. So Zune OS would be a version of Pocket PC Version 9.9

If Microsoft could pull its head out of the sand and Windows A*s am sure they would build a great new OS for Zune alone. Of course, it would never be compatible with Windows (as OS), but then who cares. Apple didn't exactly open up iPod API to developers.

No, Seriously, iam saying this is a good start, but am sure Microsoft will screw it up.

That Makes my Cellphone a Better MP3 Player

I can send a couple of gigs of mp3s from my laptop to my cellphone using bluetooth. Unfortunately it doesn't support stereo bluetooth headphones natively, but I can get some software and stereo headphones that work with it from a company called i.Tech Dynamic. [itechdynamic.com] Although I haven't tried, I'm sure I can also send images and mp3s to another bluetooth device with the owner's permission.

Sure my phone cost a couple hundred bucks more than the Zune (So did my iPod when I bought it) but I can also use it as a phone, browse the Internet through T-Mobile's data service or wifi if there's a node in range and use it to connect my laptop to the Internet. And use it as a camera or a video camera. And get a GPS fix from any nearby bluetooth GPS...

We're going to be seeing more and more of these smart phones in the USA within the next couple of years and they will make everything the Zune promised to do possible without the odious DRM restrictions from Microsoft. Those will be the devices Apple really needs to worry about.

How about illegal pictures?

What (to use everyone's favorite extreme example) if someone decides to "push" child porn pics on all neighbouring zunes? Can he be identified via a serial number or similar traceback mechanism? Is there any way to "agree" to a transfer or "deny" all but a select few?

What if someone uses a poisoned mp3-file (initially sounds like a very low volume, current pop hit, then abruptly cuts to full volume static or sheetmetal noise)? In most other P2P communities there is either a central oversight (torrents) or a user community rating system (like in eMule) to avoid such malicious behaviour - will Microsoft take responsibility?

Oh, and another thing: Can you imitate a zune using a WLAN access point and send out files this way? Certainly there is right now no software available to do that, but think of the opportunities in the future: stores sending targeted high-tech-ad-jingles or catalog pages to all zune owners in range; anarchists distributing (audio) versions of the anarchists cookbook or recipes for drugs or explosives; political offices sending the (audio) equivalent of leaflets to everyone passing by...

Sounds like a really great idea, if there's anything people want then that's more spam!

The hacker potential...

Putting an alternative firmware on it to peer-share any and all your files and to sync with a computer wirelessly will happen and almost makes the Zune a tempting project. But I don't need a wireless backup hard disc that also plays movies and music. Yet.

Wireless car adapters...

I think people are focusing in on the "share with others" feature, which is how Microsoft is advertising the Zune but not really... pertinent. It's just all they can offer with the wireless now.

Where this is going is to an "it just works" system where you can just bring your Zune into your car, the stereo detects it and you can start playing from it. It's basically undercutting the iPod/car adapters model since you don't have to go through the hassle of adapters and wires, etc. If they can do that and steal the iPod's battlecry (effective simplicity), they could steal a large chunk of the market quicker than the /. crowd expects.

This is news?

Look, I think Zune is going to be yet another iPod wannabee that falls by the wayside - but in what way, shape, or form is this news at all? Basically this is saying that Zune's wireless is going to work like... well, like the way Zune's wireless has been described to us ad nauseum.

What new tidbit of information was revealed here, exactly?

Wireless Speed

Seems a little silly for me to be (apparently) the only one to notice this, but is it a big deal that you can't sync wirelessly with your computer. Compared to USB2 and Firewire, 802.11g is pathetic speed-wise. Ever try copying a bunch of files onto one of those old USB1 flash drives? Impossibly slow. Wireless (at least in its current popular implementation) is too slow to do full syncs. A song or two is fine and amazingly convenient, but don't think that you can suddenly transfer gigabytes in seconds. The device would run out of power even if you had sufficient patience. Don't hold your breath on Apple somehow magically inventing new wireless technologies, much less new wireless standards.

If it works well for pictures it's great already

My feeling is that, as it stands, the sharing feature will not be very useful for music, but will be great for pictures. People around here share a lot of pictures, usually using cds or flash drives, which are both much less convenient than just sending them over WiFi (that is, if whole folders can be sent).

Sounds good (and diabolically clever) to me

Sounds diabolically clever to me. Short-distance short-time song sharing sounds to me like something that would really get used if you have friends who have Zunes.

A lot depends on just how that three-day limit works. If you give a song to a friend and it expires, can you give it to him/her again?

I think quite a lot of music might get sold on the basis of short-term trials when the music was, in fact, recommended by a friend.

I can also see a lot of social gratification in being the first kid on the block to have paid for and bought a hot new tune, and therefore being the one who's in the position of being able to give trial versions to everyone else. (If Microsoft is smart, you will be able to give fresh trials over and over. Then the kids who haven't bought the music need to repeatedly go to the kid who has, in order to get their new time-limited free copies.) All of this in turn provides powerful reinforcement for wanting to buy the tune and be the go-to kid.

Actually, you want to do it in a hurry. If kid A gives you a free trial version, and you can afford to buy it, you'd want to buy it quickly, so there are still kids whom A hasn't given it to yet—kids for whom you can be the wealthy song-dispensing patron.

Furthermore, if there are a fair number of Zunes in play in a social group, then the kids with iPods are excluded... they see the kids with Zunes trading tunes and they're out of it, even if the kids with Zunes are their personal friends.

And I don't think these kids are going to spend much time stripping DRM from their music or exploiting the analog hole or anything like that.

The big "if" is whether the Zune garners enough critical mass for any of this to happen. If only two kids in school have Zunes and neither of them is interested in being a social patron of the other, it isn't going to work.

Mind you, this isn't what I want from a "wireless" mp3 player. But that doesn't mean it won't be effective.

I am willing to bet

Microsoft is about to get a little lesson in why the public is not going to go for this DRM crap. I predict
the sales to be very dismal at best.

It's not about capabilities-its about posibilities

Ok so it can't sync by Wifi and it can't browse the web. Bummer. Both things can be fixed with software upgrades -- which can be delivered wirelessly!

Let's not forget that the Zune was built in 9 months. This is from the same people at Microsoft who built Xbox. The original Xbox was mostly on par with the PlayStation, like the Zune will be with the iPod. The 360 had more time to be thought out and appears to be capable of blowing the PlayStation 3 out of the water. I'll be waiting to buy a Zune 360 :-)

I don't want to browse the "web" on a Zune, but I might like to browse a custom set of web applications designed for the Zune. Here's one crazy idea that I would love to see: wifi communications from my digital cable tuner (or a Media center PC?). The tuner could broadcast an ID number of the show I'm currently watching and the current time into that show. I often say "aw man -- what is this song they are playing?" Whip out my Zune, click "Current Show" and then "Recently played songs", preview them right there, buy immediately.