Solar Boat To Cross the Atlantic 190
Roland Piquepaille writes, "A group from Switzerland will soon attempt the first Atlantic crossing in a solar-powered boat. This ship, named SUN21, is a 14-meter-long catamaran able to sleep 5 or 6 persons. The goal is to leave Seville, Spain, in December 2006 and to reach ports in Florida and New York in the spring of 2007. This boat will achieve its 7,000-mile trip at a speed of 5-6 knots, about the speed of a sailing yacht, by using photovoltaic cells and without burning a single gallon of fuel. The consortium behind this project wants to demonstrate that the time has come for solar boats." The boat will cost about $556,000 to build and it will be for sale at some point after its crossing.
Been Done Already (Score:5, Insightful)
Catboats with sails makes a very reliable clip night and day with little or no fancy technology - and can easily be mated up to such a solar-panel system for an added kick and redundancy...
$500k is hardly mainstream (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd have serious concerns about reliability etc. too. Consider that many sailing adventures end up with broken masts and similar misfortunes that people are able to recover from because they're using ancient technology. They can put together something that sails from broken masts and torn sails etc and limp in to port. Fixing up broken PV is probably not something you can just do armed with a hammer, saw and a knife.
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When I can I even like to avoid winches and wire rigging. Ropes, block and tackle may fail slightly more often, but they're easier to handle and easier to create jury rigs out of when the shit hits the sails.
Wire's for racers and dock sailors. Quite frankly, if you really need wire just to hold your mast up you've fucked up your engineering.
PV's good for a bit of luxury now and again, but I would never ever bet my life at sea on i
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They can put together something that sails from broken masts and torn sails etc and limp in to port.
Aren't you a lot better not having sails or masts that can break in the first place? Combining your motive power with the area that takes the most strain doesn't seem like the best idea, at least when you have alternatives. Yes, sailing ships can tack into the wind, but its not what I'd call optimal.
Solar power and wind power aren't the same (Score:2)
If you're going to claim wind power is the same as solar power you may as well call gasoline engines solar powered too: In each case the energy originally came from the sun. In reality, it is useful to make the distinction between all of these because each power source requires different methods to use and has different downsides. Even the environmental consequences of wind and solar voltaic are different if you consider the manufacturing process.
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They're not changing away from sailing vessels now, the whole industry changed over 100 years ago. They are using a solar-powered, propellor driven vessel which - if the tachnology advances - will have many quite obvious advantages over traditional sailing vessels.
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Can motor when there is no wind - is the only one really.
Sailing yachts can go faster than 5-7 knots, they;re more eco-friendly, they look better.
Oh yeah, you need a clue to be able to sail them (although modern ones have reduced the need for proper cluefulness).
I'd like to see a move BACK to sailing ships. They're more eco-friendly than making a whole load of solar panels, which could be used in places where the need is more pressing.
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Yes, but modern sailing vessels have many quite obvious advantages over photovoltaic, as well as over traditional sailing vessels. Sailing technology hasn't stood still in the last hundred years, you know. Sailing vessels are faster - a lot fa
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The Solar powered boat does indeed have some 'obvious advantages' over sail, for one it can move when there is no wind or into the direction of the wind. Ellen Macarthur would have found it more difficult going in her sailing ship had she tried to circumnavigate the globe in the other directions as she would have been tr
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They're not changing away from sailing vessels now, the whole industry changed over 100 years ago.
More like 50 years ago. Coal steamers did not replace the tall ships -- they relied on them for their fuel! The size and weight of coal made it impractical to transport by steamer, so it was delivered by sailing vessels to ports the world over. It wasn't until the middle of last century that enough diesel and diesel-powered boats were available for the tall ships to be retired.
HAL.
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why? (Score:2)
Re:why? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:why? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Silly rabbit. WIND POWER BLOWS.
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They're still subject to the waves and currents just like any other boat... and there are many places where the currents exceed 5 knots.
While this is true for almost every boat, many high performance boats exceed windspeed when they are on a broad reach. Even for cruisers, it's not unusual to do 70-90% of windspeed, even upwind. [In normal trade conditions, that generally means 9
Re:why? (Score:4, Insightful)
2. As many people here have pointed out, sailboats have been around for a very long time, meaning that we've had a lot of time to improve their design and construction. If the first generation of a solar ship can be competitive with current generation sailboats, I think that this bodes well for the solar ship in the long haul.
3. Owing to the enormous forces involved in propelling a large ship using wind, the design, construction and operation of sailing vessels can be quite expensive. Half a million for a boat that can cross the Atlantic doesn't seem so bad, especially for a first-generation custom-built effort. With large scale production, I would expect to see prices come down.
4. The masts, sails and standing rigging of a sailing vessel seem incompatible with modern top-loading cargo facilities, whereas I can imagine that a solar boat could be designed for compatibility with existing port equipment.
5. Although batteries weigh a lot, so does fuel. And, unlike cars and trucks driving cross-country, ships crossing an ocean don't have the luxury of refueling, so they have to carry it all with them. On a solar-powered ship, you just need enough battery capacity to get you through cloudy patches.
I'm not 100% convinced it'll work, but the idea has merit.
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I'm not sure the weight of the batteries is actually an issue. How much ballast would a boat like this carry anyway, and why couldn't all the ballast be batteries!
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Make a huge trimaran, and sure! (Score:3, Insightful)
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Probably to use a ship design that doesn't roll and pitch (as much), like SWATH [swath.com] for example. It would also seem eminently sensible to have the ability to raise a rudimentary sail if there's wind running in the right direction, and maybe raise some wind generators if there's wind running in some other direction, though it's possible that a wind generator of sufficient size to "make a difference" in propulsion might offer sufficie
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To show that it can be done on solar alone (Score:2)
It's a proof of technology, not a planned usurper to sail power, at least that's how I see it.
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What if solar and sail were not concurrent? (solar for sunny days and no wind)
What if the solar panels primary purpose was to store energy to run on-board systems and for docking?
There are many iterations here, but it's an idea worth pursuit. (I think)
hybrid (Score:2)
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Wow (Score:5, Funny)
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sailboats themselves use solar, and sometimes even a mini wind turbine to keep their electronic systems charged while saving gas for real emergencies.
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Not reading the article is one thing, but not reading the summary?
"This boat will achieve its 7,000-mile trip at a speed of 5-6 knots, about the speed of a sailing yacht[.]"
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If you want to evaluate the relative environmental costs of various power generation methods, you have to inc
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It's a prototype, first generation stuff just to prove the concept.
They get this whole 'electric boat' concept worked out and they will streamline the process, build on the knowledge they get during the first few generations and eventually they will reshape the hull into a more efficient shape (perhaps take clues from large sea-borne mammals like the dolphin or whale), establish a more effective way to create electricity (such as perhaps an onboard diesel gen
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That said, it is still first generation, proof of concept. With any luck we (as in we 'the world') will take advantage of all of the findings they uncover on their eight month 'journey of discovery' - doing things that people already do, but doing them from a completely different perspective
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The "it's time for solar powered boats" thing is hype though. Unnecessary hype.
Re:Wow (Score:4, Informative)
The North Atlantic is one of the most hostile environments on earth
---and they plan to make the crossing in January on solar power at a speed of 5 knots?
This is nuts.
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They are testing in conditions less condusive to their success, so if this works then they can be fairly confident that it will work in most situations.
And anyway you want it to be a proper challenge.
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I'm not sure 15 to 20 degrees north really qualifies as "The North Atlantic"
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Which might be why they are sailing south [transatlantic21.ch] from Seville to the Canaries, then south again to the Cape Verde islands before heading off across the Atlantic to St Martin, and thence Bahamas, Miami, Fort Lauderdale, then New York. Sure, they're sailing up the coast to New York, but they're not sailing straight across to New York.
But how much oil... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:But how much oil... (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe in Magic Pixie Land (Score:2)
No, it's not. You're thinking of the future, when it may be possible to do so. But this article is about "[demonstrating] that the time has come for solar boats".
Make your argument based on what's possible now, please. Right now, solar cells require a large up front investment for a small long term payoff.
The economics always prove it (Score:2)
But how much oil did it take to make the solar cells?
Certainly no more than some percentage of its wholesale cost (cost of manufacturing includes cost of materials, energy, labor, and lots of other things like marketing, licensing fees, etc.) Panels usually pay back their RETAIL cost in a few years (depends on the area you are in, if you use a tracking mount which grossly increases their daily output, etc.) There's a substanial net gain, since they easily last another decade past their break-even point
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The point that was entirely missed by the parent poster is that you don't have to take a lot of oil with you when you have the solar cells.
Oh, let's not bring numbers into this (Score:2)
If we did, then we might notice that 14m * 6.5m * 1 kW m-2 * 15% efficiency ~= 13.65 kW ~= 18 horsepower. At mid-day, with no cloud cover.
From "Choosing the Right Outboard For Your Boat" [smalloutboards.com], we find that an 18 horsepower motor is sufficient for a boat up to 25 feet (7.7m) and 600lbs (272 kg). The boat in question here is an Aquabus C60 [mwline.ch] variant, at 14m and weighing approximately 10000 kg when empty.
Note that the standard boat has 2 x 16 kW motors, but a solar surface of only 20m2, which will produce only
Honey, where's the spare paddle? (Score:3, Insightful)
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But the important question is ... (Score:2)
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What's next? (Score:2)
Useless (Score:2)
Its not like they're sucking the well dry everyday.
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Also is there any numbers on whether or not you could cover a giant tanker-like ship with enough solar panels to get it to move at an acceptable speed?
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If there isn't enough space you can use kites with solar collectors :)
http://eidolon.net/homesite.html?section=terrydowl ing&page=terrydowling/td_ryno.htm [eidolon.net]
Time is money... (Score:2)
Well, I guess it is an improvement over Kon-Tiki [wikipedia.org] which only had an ave speed of 1.5 knots. But at least it didn't use all this new-fangled technology!
If transportation advancement followed CPU speed or Disk Drive storage - whoa nelly! We'd be burning our nads off, zipping around!
Solar? (Score:2)
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Filtering out submitters? (Score:5, Interesting)
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From the article: (Score:5, Insightful)
Except for all the nuclear powered ships and submarines.
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And if you really want to be picky, ships don't burn gasoline. They use diesel fuel.
Dan East
Diesel (Score:2)
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Obligatory Monty Python (Score:3, Funny)
The camera has come to rest on a very obvious isolated beach hut; it blows up. Cut to a building site in a suburban housing estate. There is a Gumby standing there.
Voice Over And here is the neighbour who told us where they were (he blows up) Nobody likes a clever dick. (cut to stock film of a small house) Here is where he lived (it blows up) And this is where Lord Langdon lived who refused to speak to us (it blows up). So did the gentleman who lived here....(shot of house: it blows up)... and here
Cut to a presentation desk. The film is on a screen behind. We see it stop behind him as the presenter speaks.
Presenter Ah, well I'm afraid we have to stop the film there, as some of the scenes which followed were of a violent nature which might have proved distressing to some of our viewers. Though not to me, I can tell you.
(cut to another camera; the presenter turns to face it,)
In Nova Scotia today, Mr Roy Bent of North Walsham in Norfolk became the first man to cross the Atlantic on a tricycle. His tricycle, specially adapted for the crossing, was ninety feet long, with a protective steel hull, three funnels, seventeen first-class cabins and a radar scanner. (A head and shoulders picture of Roy Bent comes up on the screen behind him) Mr Bent is in our Durham studios, which is rather unfortunate as we're all down here in London. And in London I have with me Mr Ludovic Grayson, the man who scored all six goals in Arsenal's 1-0 victory over the Turkish Champions FC Botty. (he turns) Ludovic... (pull out to reveal that he is talking to a five-foot-high filing cabinet) first of all, congratulations on the victory.
Mr Grayson (from inside filing cabinet) Thank you, David.
Anyway, very silly stuff, you get the point.
http://www.ibras.dk/montypython/episode24.htm#11 [ibras.dk]
Perfect! (Score:2)
You run into a dark, cloudy storm, and lose power. And the worse the storm is, the less chance you have of developing any power. For some reason, that doesn't sound like much more than a one-off gimmick to me.
Yes, you could store energy in batteries, but storing enough power to get that boat very far in storm winds means a LOT of weight, which means a lower draft, more resisitance, and the need for more panels....
steve
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Hybrid (Score:3, Insightful)
Dan East
???? uh time for what (Score:3, Insightful)
anything but mainstream.
Nice idea, but... (Score:4, Interesting)
It sounds nice, but the practical application for the actual transportation of goods is something else.
The great things about ships is that the volume increases as a cubic function (roughly) of the length, but the drag only increases as the square. The area available to solar energy is more like a direct linear relationship to length what with ships being kind of long and skinny. That means that you can eventually build a ship big enough to carry it's own fuel to cross an ocean, and if you go bigger it can carry cargo even. Bigger still means more cargo with less fuel per cargo needed (generally). This is why we now have 1000 foot long container ships and 300,000 DWT ULCCs (Ultra Large Crude Carriers). But these ships that require less energy per volume still require a *lot* of energy, and not just energy, put power too (they need that energy fast). For example, the ship I work on (600 feet long by 75 feet wide, about 20,000 GRT--small by today's standards) requires about 14,000 horsepower to travel at about 17 knots when fully loaded. Just using a crude area approximation for the ship's dimensions and, say, 33% efficiency for solar cells you would get about 1630 kW of power, or about 2180 horsepower. 2180 horsepower won't even move a ship that size fast enough to maintain steerage. This isn't even mentioning the other auxiliary electrical loads associated with a ship (pumps, motors, air conditioning, sewage processing, etc.). Factoring average load for my ship in to that, you get about 1000 kW (1350 HP) available for propulsion. This is like trying to row a canoe with a spoon. Of course, if you don't put anything in the ship power consumption goes way down and you eventually get to the point where you have a boat like what they're using. But what business that makes money by moving lots of goods from A to B on a schedule is going to build a fleet of boats that can't carry anything and go very slowly? Maybe recreational boaters, but I don't see it so much for the commercial shipping industry.
I do wish them fair winds and following seas for their crossing, and hope that they are indeed correct that "Solar energy will be the future of navigation techniques" if for no other reason than we need to, as a society, start reducing out carbon footprint. As an engineer (a marine engineer, at that), though, I see a very long a tortuous path ahead.
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It's still a good idea, though. A decent-sized zeppelin could haul 2-4 cargo containers at 40+ MPH, and there's no need for a crew... these are simple enough to just pop in a computer and GPS and let them go. Pity the company that was
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Just using a crude area approximation for the ship's dimensions and, say, 33% efficiency for solar cells you would get about 1630 kW of power, or about 2180 horsepower. 2180 horsepower won't even move a ship that size fast enough to maintain steerage.
Thats why you build the ships with two or three hulls, as the design on their website displays, and stretch your solar panel sheet over the top. Same small drag, drastically increased surface area.
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the big picture (Score:2, Insightful)
Not offtopic.. (Score:2)
Burning fueld (Score:2)
Unless you consider the fuel required to manufacture the solar cells, including the vast amount of electricity consumed during manufacturing and refining of materials which mostly comes from burning coal and the transportation of raw materials and intermediate products over long distances using oil fuel.
Not too long ago it was more than the usable energy the cell could produce over its entire lifetime. It's no longer t
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What about the vast amount of electricity consumed during manufacturing and refining of an engine block? Or for that matter, sails, rigging and their mast? How much energy does it take to produce an alumin
Crazy idea: Just do the friggin math!! (Score:2)
Let's assume, from the picture, they have a full 14 by say 5 meters of solar cells. If you do the math, starting from the number of watts of sun per square meter, the typical cell efficiency (when new and clean), the amount of sunlight, hmmm, the numbers are really dismal.
I get about 0.6 HORSEPOWER average over 24 hrs, 2.2 PEAK at noon. Unlikely to be able to budge the craft against even a light headwind or current.
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14x5 = 90 m^2. Efficiency 10% gives 9 m^2 effective. Solar influx is around 1kW/M^2. So this gives something like 9 kW peak, equating to about 12 hp.
I think you should recheck your formulas. And I've got this wild idea that the engineers behind the boat have actually thought about what they're doing.
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Okay, let's do the math, all of it.
9KW is what you get when the sun is (1) Above the horizon. (2) Not obscured by clouds (3) directly overhead.
Looking at the design, the panel doesnt look steerable, as that would form a solid sail against the wind. It seems to have to lie flat. So it's only going to give 12hp at a small time around local noon, at
MCOG (Score:2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysterious_cities_of
I can't wait until they work on the giant condor - all that gold could cost a little more than this $1/2 Million though...
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Price out a nice new Sea Ray Sundancer, last I checked their Sundancer 460 (roughly 46' of real space, like 51' tip to tip) model runs between half and three quarters of a Meg.
That said, I like the earlier idea of making the sails out of solar collector material (memories of Tron come to mind) and using that juice to fill up the batteries, run those the massive electric motors like this thing does.
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So, Solar loses, wind wins!
Good ol' `wind'. Nothin' beats that...
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b) back to steam engines, we can still produce a lot of "powerforests" (i don't really know what's the correct english term for this type of fast growing plant industry) to burn, sun can help to heat the steam as well without using oil expensive plastic components.
c) hydrogen coming in, even if only as fuel cells. can be produced by windmills at shore.
d) burning good old alcohol also still works, can be produced from any
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it bugs me when someone suggests a method for improving a bad situation, only to have the idea shot down because it isnt an absolute solution. so what if it takes energy to make a solar panel? you are still eliminating some waste, so there is a net gain. unless you are suggesting that the amount of energy it takes to construct a solar panel exceeds