SanDisk MP3 Players Seized in MP3 Licence Dispute 299
MrSteveSD writes "According to the BBC, German officials have seized Sandisk's MP3 players at the IFA show in Berlin. The Italian company Sisvel claims that Sandisk has refused to pay license fees for the MP3 codec. Sisvel President Roberto Dini has said that Sandisk could get an edge over competitors by not paying the fees. How much are proprietary format licensing fees pushing up the cost of consumer goods?"
OK, so where is... (Score:2, Funny)
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You could just ask for a Vorbis player, which is the actual Audio format within the OGG container.
And about all those MP3, you would only have to re-rip and encode them from your original CD source (you DO have the original CD no?), or tell your preffered e music store to offer them as OGG instead of MP3 (some music stores already do that [allofmp3.com]).
hell yeah (Score:4, Insightful)
Damn right (Score:2, Insightful)
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But seriously, it's just a storage device; I didn't even need drivers for Windows.
Grandstanding Thugs. (Score:3, Insightful)
IFA Show [google.com]? IFA is the world's largest Consumer Electronics trade fair, the most important international exhibition for electronic entertainment, communications and ...
From the article:
SanDisk's IFA stall was left almost empty ... Giustino de Sanctis, head of Sisvel's US-based subsidiary Audio MPEG, SanDisk's refusal to purchase an MP3 licence leaves them out of step with some 600 other manufacturers and software developers. ... "We have 600 licensees and we have to protect their rights, and the rights of the patent holders,"
Protect their "right" to pay you for an audio compression algorithm by embarrassing a competitor at the show? That's some kind of protection [wikipedia.org] alright.
Just use ogg.
Ogg doesn't suit the purpose well (Score:3, Interesting)
Everything is a trade off. (Score:3, Interesting)
It's [ogg] fine on a desktop with a high powered general purpose processor, but less so in a hardware implementation.
I've heard that before, but not seen it. What exactly is the trade off? How do people like this [trekstor.de] do it? How does ogg compare to AAC or AAC with unFairPlay [slashdot.org]? How is it that my dinky ARM Zaurus plays ogg without a problem, just like the 233 MHz PII it's roughly equivalent to? Why don't I see the difference between ogg and mp3 on any of the devices I use besides the one cheap player I own
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The real question is, is ogg support worth the extra hardware cost? The answer is no, unless you were already going to put more generalized hardware in anyway, to support
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And sometimes I encounter mp3s I simply can't play with it (funny thing, incompatibility within 1 single format, some software players are also incapable of playing those mp3s)
But when I transcode those faulty mp3s to ogg, there is no problem whatsoever.
I have yet to find a single
exploitation (Score:2, Informative)
The cost (Score:5, Informative)
How much are proprietary format licensing fees pushing up the cost of consumer goods?
In this case, 75 cents per hardware MP3 decoder, with a minumum of $15,000 per year [mp3licensing.com]. Personally, I'm more worried about royalty payments' inherent incompatability with free software, seeing as you can't keep track of who's copied it to who by its very nature.
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Once the actual cost of the IP systems is accounted for in state budgets instead of hidden away, it would be far easier to get a rational discussion about the cost and benefits of the systems.
The day would come (Score:3, Informative)
--
Arizona Web Design [initusdesign.com]
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fees (Score:2, Funny)
14 dollars.
Dear OGG/FLAC fanboi: (Score:5, Insightful)
MP3 quality is fine, and with flash memory prices in freefall, squeezing an extra 13.8% off the track size at a given quality level is going to be moot very soon, if it is not already.
Yours sincerely,
Mr. Reality Check.
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Yours sincerely,
fanboi
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Why you couldn't just encode an entire CD as one big MP3 and then split it up, however, I don't know.
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Marrillion's "Misplaced Childhood" album does just this, as does Crash Test Dummies, "God Shuffled His Feet" on some tracks.
Re:Dear OGG/FLAC fanboi: (Score:5, Informative)
No, it won't be more free. The Ogg format is already as free and open as it is possible to get. From Vorbis.com:
There is some reference software suppied by Vorbis So MP3 may become AS free as Ogg, but Ogg is already available under the most liberal conditions possible. Licensing restrictions are not an excuse for not using it.Re: (Score:2)
No, they're not - but for me, 16+GB of music in mp3 format and ~300MB in ogg is an excuse. I have a player capable of playing both, but simply don't have the time or the inclination to convert my library from mp3 to ogg.
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No they're not. Public domain is more liberal than BSD; you don't even need to include attribution with public domain.
Of course, while the patents will expire on MP3 decoders in 2010, the copyright on the decoder source will last for another 55 years or so. If anyone is using MP3 in 2065, I reserve the right to slap them.
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"Ogg" is public domain. All the specifications are in the public domain. libogg is BSD licenced, but anyone who wants to write an EULA ogg decoder can do. The GPL stuff is just the end user tools.
Either way; there are advantages of the xiph stuff over and above quality. There are issues with the small little weird things mp3 does. Gapless playback. Limited bitrates. Sometimes it
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``4 years is nowhere near as long as it would take an entire technogeneration to migrate away from MP3''
It depends how compelling it is. Switching away from MP3 is not that difficult. People I know have done it in a couple of days. Not that I think switching will be compelling enough in the foreseeable future.
``Give
SanDisk take revenge, switch to Ogg and FLAC (Score:2, Interesting)
This is again reminds all about the advantages of open formats. Open formats are patents free, royalty free and best of the best quality. MP3 max sample rate: 48 kHz, FLAC max sample rate: 1048.57 kHz, MP3 max bit rate: 320 kbit/s, FLAC max bit rate: Infi
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ICBW, IANAPD. (I am not a product designer)
The value of proprietary formats (Score:2, Interesting)
Proprietary format licensing fees are not "pushing up" the cost of consumer goods. Consumer goods will use proprietary formats when the value to the consumer (and thus ultimately to the manufacturer) justifies paying the license fee. Without MP3 support would SanDisk be able to target such a large market? Probably not. They would save $0.75 in licensing and lose millions of dollars in sales over
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Very true. However, that's assuming that what consumers want is an _MP3_ player. If you assume they want a
The Wheel (Score:3, Insightful)
Come to think of it... would technology have been able to advance as quickly as it has if we were forced to pay these taxes on the wheel for the last 10,000 years?
And I thought software patents... (Score:3, Insightful)
Software patent bill thrown out [bbc.co.uk]
Way to go to ignore the will of the elected representatives of the people!
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The EPO, patent lawyers and some big companies wanted to make them really legal, but huge protests managed to turn the original proposal around to be rather against software patents. In the end, even the original proponents voted against it, and it was defeated by a wide mar
No Case (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that the patents in question are null and void will hardly escape the attention of the courts. I don't know whether to expect some good arse-on-plate-handing action, or just a swift "Ting! Next, please!"
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That would indeed seem to be the reasonable interpretation of the European Patent Convention which prohibits patenting of "programs for computers". In practice, several countries have built case law where you can patent, not "a program doing X" but "a computer running a program doing X" which very much amounts to the same thing in other words. (In the same way you can't patent business models "Persons
Re:No Case (Score:4, Interesting)
Sandisk should move for an annulment, since it's clear that the patents should never have been granted in the first place. And then every manufacturer who has ever paid the bogus licence fee should get together and sue the licencing authority.
*Not intending to be sexist, I just never heard of a girl diagnosed with autism
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Well, I agree with you. But how sure can Sandisk be that the judge will buy it? Case law has a rather tricky history in this area, and EPC art. 52(2) hasn't been very well respected. Besides, Sandisk is in it for the money, not for fairness, respect for the law or the greater common good.
But yes, if this goes all the way it could be a very interesting test case. There's both a hope and a danger there.
never heard of a girl diagnosed with autism ..... (Score:3, Informative)
Although autism is generally more prevalent in males (and there seems to be a biological reason for this) females can develop it - and typically when the do, it's BAD.
My sister's case is quite bad.
Oh - and not all autistic people are savants, either; most are completely without function.
Can I buy a license? (Score:2, Insightful)
That's it (Score:2)
The writing has been on the wall for years now, and it's not going to get any better for mp3 users. Fraunhofer/Thomson have fully disclosed since day one that they hold the patents (unethical as the patent system that permitted them may be) and intend to pursue licence "breakers". Not that it matters, since much better codecs exist that aren't so encumbered.
In this day and age there's no good reason for anyone to still be using mp3.
bashing Ogg (Score:3, Insightful)
If you find any one of these things to be true, maybe take a moment to analyze your stance? If you find your first reaction to positive comments on Ogg to be one of anger, maybe do that analysis?
If there's anyone out there who dislikes Ogg and who isn't attached to MP3, it would be good to get your perspective. Please speak out.
It doesn't help that advocates of Ogg often have strong opinions about the values of using Ogg. But don't let another person's attitude deflect you from really thinking through Ogg's value for yourself. Having a chip-on-your-shoulder reaction is the essence of fanboyism.
The quality is comparable. The hardware/processing footprint is comparable. There are no technical downsides. (Don't correct me to tell me how Ogg is much better -- I'm understating the point for a reason.) Ogg detractors often get these points wrong. Unapologetically unresearched inaccuracy is another sign of fanboyism.
Adding Ogg to your hardware is easy enough -- there are over 100 models of portable player listed on just this page [xiph.org]. So if you want to use Ogg, either as a manufacturer or a consumer, there's no problem. (If you want to keep using your old MP3s -- go ahead. Just file your new Ogg files alongside them.)
Unlike MP3, however, Ogg is public domain.
So, all things even, Ogg beats out MP3. So, even if Ogg weren't quite as good as MP3, it should be supported for the (lack of) licensing. You won't get shenanigans like what this article's about. You can implement your own software. You can build your own hardware without incrementing its cost by the royalties + insurance against litigation. (Well, likely you'll still be paying those for the other formats your player supports.) You can improve the format. You can distribute, sell, or stream Ogg files without liability.
The manufacturers support it and there are many communities using it. There is no reason to encode another MP3.
Ogg: highly recommended.
(Disclaimer: I personally don't use Ogg Vorbis much. My music's all lossless.)
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But wait, they DO (Score:2, Informative)
If you RTA, you'll find that in fact, they claim to have both a novel method for decoding and playing the file as well as verificaiton of this fact.
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Of course, I do not find any examples of an algorithm written to produce a result for which a different algorithm can be created which achieves the same result. But I am by no means an expert in such things - I would be interested to see such an example though.
Now, to clairify - I do not claim that I think a novel algorithm could be written which would be as effec
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Re:Patenting a Form? (Score:4, Informative)
novel algorithm for decoding MP3. Such a thing, if it existed (which it probably cannot)
Actually, novel algorithms exist for both encoding [sourceforge.net] and decoding [underbit.com]. It's then believable that Sandisk built their MP3 players without any Frauenhoffer code.
This is more like the .GIF debacle - where a company claims responsibility for all code that creates or reads the format they designed. It's obviously bullshit, but apparently Frauenhoffer don't take US victories for free-and-open use as precedent.
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Who says they haven't been taken to court? Perhaps these devices needed to be seized as evidence? Maybe Sansdisk was not very forthcoming. Who knows. We really don't know anything right now, but it should make for interesting stories the rest of the week.
Re:Does decoding use patented tech? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Patenting a Form? (Score:5, Informative)
The problem is that the patents are for the actual compression and decompression algorithms. These can and often are patented - MP3 is not an isolated case. Here's a list of the patents involved [mp3licensing.com].
The whole thing's actually quite a mess, with several different companies claiming patents on bits and pieces of the codec. This is one of the reasons why you don't usually see MP3 codecs in the free Linux distributions as standard.
The problem for SanDisk is that they're a US-based company, and the US allows software patents. Sisvel would struggle to be able to pull this on an EU-based company.
The Patent is for the Decoding Algorithm (Score:3, Informative)
The BBC report [bbc.co.uk] states, "Italian patents company Sisvel alleges that SanDisk refuses to pay licensing fees it needs to playback MP3 files." In other words, the Slashdot article starting this discussion is poorly worded. The issue is, in fact, the patent for the algorithm (that decodes the format, thus enabling playback), not the format itself.
Still, the cost of licensing the patent should
Exhibiting in Germany (Score:3, Informative)
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us patent duration (Score:2)
Isn't it 20 years?
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Yes [uspto.gov].
Wikipedia says, patent expires in 2010 (Score:5, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3 [wikipedia.org]
Just came here in a time machine from 2010. (Score:4, Funny)
Oh, and if anyone is curious about me, I work in law enforcement. I was sent back on the case of one of the most wanted time-criminals of 2010, John Titor.
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Re:Wikipedia says, patent expires in 2010 (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Wikipedia says, patent expires in 2010 (Score:4, Funny)
The sad thing is: I checked.
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"An expert opinion from one of the founders of MP3 digital audio compression substantiates SanDisk's position. SanDisk is not infringing any patent in the pending litigation."
This is also confirmed by the wish-washy comments from the supposed patent holder:
"By definition you have to follow the standard," Mr de Sanctis said.
"It is just not possible
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Re:Ohhh Puhleeeeeese! (Score:4, Informative)
kind of like this?
http://www.vorbis.com/ [vorbis.com]
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SanDisk and others in the music player market need MP3 codecs to even consider a media player release.
OGG codec is a nice to have.
So I'm not getting your point. Or were you somehow trying to say "we should all ditch MP3 for OGG because OGG is license free"?
If that's the case, then stop mumbling and just come out and say it, then we could all have a laugh at your expense and be friends.
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and btw, I wouldn't buy an "mp3" player that doesn't support ogg. What good is a portable media player that can't play my music collection? I got sick of dealing with mp3's a long time ago. You can start laughing now.
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Are any of them sanely priced ($5-10/gb)?
If so, I'm in the market.
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I found one. All the reviews say it's got great quality and the bang for the buck is impressive (Just above $3/gb), but it's bulky and heavy (iPod fashion whores need not apply).
Neuros II 80GB for $250 [neurosaudio.com]
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I own an iriver H320, which supported OGG out of the box (which was the reason I bought it). It was nice enough as it was, but now that I installed rockbox, I never want to go back to the original firmware.
But if you don't want to risk bricking your mp3 player (although the risk was almost non-existant with my H320), Cowon is also a good brand for sanely priced
Open source software for MP3 players (Score:2)
http://www.rockbox.org/ [rockbox.org]
I use it on my iRiver H340, and it's pretty good.
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"An expert opinion from one of the founders of MP3 digital audio compression substantiates SanDisk's position. SanDisk is not infringing any patent in the pending litigation."
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I think you're a little confused about capitalism. Cartels (the essential problem behind proprietary format adoption) are inimical to capitalism. They are the opposite of competition. When a proprietary format becomes the de facto standard due not to its superiority,
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I believe that MP3 is one of the few file formats that has gained popularity by its own merits. I mean, if you look at the story of MP3 [wikipedia.org] it was at the right place at the right time.
Re:Ohhh Puhleeeeeese! (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is when formats that we use to communicate are encumbered by patents.
It's not enough just to make something better. We've already done that: it's called Vorbis. The inventors of MP3 are now profiting not on the merit of their technology, but the sheer inertia that you get when one format is a dominant standard.
It's just like GIF: PNG is better than GIF is nearly every way, and yet the computing world was stuck paying Unisys for years for their inferior technology, simply because GIF was entrenched.
That's why we "communist buddies" insist on unencumbered standards when it comes to the protocols and formats we use to communicate. We're not interested in writing checks indefinitely for the privilege of sending data to other people, or putting it on devices. It would be one thing if these technologies competed on merit alone, and if you could quickly drop one when a better one became available, but it doesn't work that way.
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If you are a full free-market capitalist then indeed you wouldn't want government intervening in the market with enforcement of patents and copyright and licenses with royalties, or intervening in general.
I guess since you enjoy government intervention you might want to think about that before you start calling other people 'communist's.
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If you are a free market capitalist then you probably regard government as just another product that you should be able to purchase.
Congratulations! (Score:4, Insightful)
Did you know perpendicular recording for hard disks was developed in 1976 but is only now being implemented? It's because patent law has caused hard drive makers to sit on the technology and wait for the patent to expire before researching its implementation - which, just so you know, is long before the production phase.
Many patent holders are now stuck waiting for someone to implement their ideas, while industrialists are waiting for their patents to expire. The patent holders get no money and the technology they came up with, never makes it to market for over 20 years.
The makers of the mp3 patent, thus, took advantage of something called submarine patents. They let the technology fall into the wild, where people use their technology for a while, and then they nail them with the mp3 patent when the product goes commercial and is heavily entrenched. Also see: Unisys and GIF.
Now you have companies like Intellectual Ventures which amass zillions of patents intending to ensnare anyone who blunders into their mine field.
BTW a great deal of our economy is now engulfed in patent litigation. Fear of patent litigation is slowing a lot of innovation because practically any business model based on cutting edge work is vulnerable to a lawsuit over an infringement of an obscure or broad brushing patent.
Let me put it this way for your Conservative mind:
If Frauhoff (sp?) had enforced their patent from day one, you would not be seeing mp3's in existence now, or at any time until after the patent ran out.
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
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"Nowadays" implies a better previous period. Compared to exactly when? Every published expert on the advance of technology, and every study using any metric you can name, says that technology is moving faster
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But how come then, that Giant Magnetoresistance [wikipedia.org] which was discovered in '88/'89 was in harddrives from a variety of manufacturers within the decade? Just because someone patented the idea
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There needs to be a method to deal with generification in patents.
You aren't conservative. (Score:2)
He also never considered that laborors and owners would simply thr
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It is a reasonable compromise to grant things like patents and copyrights. However, the current timeframes are out of sync with the pace of information creation and transfer. Entire generations are born and die before their culture---if you even at all recognize that what authors, artists, writers, and the like produce belongs* to all of humanity---whether popular or obscure, ever legally
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Gosh, do people really still use 'communist' as an insult?
How terribly quaint.
I expect I should get back to Russia, or something.
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So does my iAudio. What's your point?
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Most folks' employment is of the form "i get a flat rate and any beneficial thing i come up with benefits only my employer, if i don't come up with beneficial things i get fired". The employer gets to make as much money as it can prise out of the marketplace for the employees ideas/labour etc. Since business is obliged to seek the lowest bidding supplier unless they are f
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Let's see....
It's already been discussed elsewhere in this thread that the MP3 patents expire in 2010. Assuming a 25-year patent life (I don't know Italian law), that means they were issued around 1985.
How many MP3 players do you know of that existed in 1985? For that matter, how many people had computers on their desk which could encode an audio CD in a reasonable time?
Easy (Score:2)
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No, I'm going from lossless to lossy: FLAC to MP3.
I almost exclusively listen to the FLAC version, but if I need to stick a few songs on a portable or make an MP3 CD for a trip or stream from a remote location, it's nice to have the smaller MP3 version available.
By the way, I do have all the music on physical CDs I bought; this is entirely fair use. (That's pretty much the only way to get FLACs anyway.)
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In another related story... (Score:2)