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Data Storage

45GB Triple-Layer HD DVDs 334

Posted by timothy from the my-laptop's-drive-now-feels-tiny dept.
m4c north writes "Toshiba has developed a new DVD-ROM: 45GB spread over 3 layers. From the press release (which has a few illustrations) the new discs have the ability "to record twelve hours of high-definition movies on a single disc." They've also added a "dual-layer hybrid ROM disc comprised of a dual-layer HD DVD-ROM side and a dual-layer DVD-ROM side." Japan Today's article adds, "The huge capacity means that a single disk can store a Hollywood movie trilogy." Do I smell yet another Star Wars re-re-release? Toshiba will take the wraps off the new DVDs at the Media-Tech Expo 2005 in Las Vegas. The HD DVD Promotion group offers the press release in PDF."
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45GB Triple-Layer HD DVDs More

45GB Triple-Layer HD DVDs

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  • In Search of a Standard... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TripMaster Monkey ( 862126 ) * on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @12:50PM (#12500208)
    ...the new discs have the ability "to record twelve hours of high-definition movies on a single disc.

    It's a shame that the DVD community doesn't have the ability to decide on a standard...

  • Fine. Whatever. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ackthpt ( 218170 ) * on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @12:50PM (#12500209) Homepage Journal
    When everyone finally jumps off the fence and starts manufacturing, distributing and fully supporting what technology they all settle on, drop me a line.

    I'm sure Star Wars re-re-re-released on HD DVD will be stunning, but I'm rather skeptical about when I'll actually have a HD TV to watch it on. As it is, the set I just got is pretty damn good when viewed on a non-CRT screen (no black lines.) A couple years ago Philips had the TV/Monitor to watch HD on, but it was $18,000. I'm certain that kind of quality hasn't come down far enough in price, nor shall it in the next 3 years for me to even consider buying one (probably only when I get HD Soccer on FSC or such.) Meanwhile, as we saw the other day, someone has nanotubes which may make some really great screens, but probably won't actually hit consumer markets, priced attactively (gotta pay off that investment in research.)

    Heck, I'm only moving to a 64bit CPU at home because 32bit motherboards aren't being innovated anymore and I need a new mobo. It'll probably be a burned out monitor that forces me to get the nanotube screen and a few really good movie titles which convince me to upgrade to a new DVD (only because non HD players aren't made at that point.)

    • Actually, you can find really good HD-capable sets now for around $1200 to $2500, depending on the sale or how big you want it.
    • I'm certain that kind of quality hasn't come down far enough in price, nor shall it in the next 3 years for me to even consider buying one (probably only when I get HD Soccer on FSC or such.)
      Actually, you can already catch MLS games on HDNet. Usually about one per week. I don't have HDTV, but I understand it's stunning.

    • Re:Fine. Whatever. (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Have Blue ( 616 )
      Same here- HD is not good enough to throw out existing equipment for, but when you find yourself without a TV at all, there's no reason not to go HD with a replacement. Sooner or later, HD is going to be either present in *all* video devices, or a "free" feature on some other device you want already (like a next-gen console), so the cost of explicit migration gradually erodes until one day you find that you're HD-ready almost without realizing it. This is basically what happened to me, and it looks awesome

      • when you find yourself without a TV at all, there's no reason not to go HD with a replacement.

        Except, of course, if you do not have money coming out of your keester.

        HD displays are still really expensive.

    • GeForce 6800 Ultra Dual-link DVI graphics card: $400
      Apple 30" Cinema Display HD: $2999
      Ability to view HD in full rez off a firewire stream from my cable box, PLUS games, PLUS movies, PLUS anything in any format that you can conceivably view on a computer screen... Priceless

      But seriously, when I was in the market to invest in both an expensive HDTV screen and a nice computer (in this case, a dual 2.5ghz G5), I thought... why not merge, AND save money? So I got a hideaway desk that looks like an entertainmen

  • Very Cool (Score:3, Insightful)

    by MightyMartian ( 840721 ) on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @12:51PM (#12500223) Journal
    We've been looking for a decent replacement for our old 30gb tape backup system, and this looks to be the critter. Hope the price of burner and DVD's isn't too high. Heck, with that kind of storage, I could use Ghost or something like it to do HD images.

    • Re:Very Cool (Score:3, Informative)

      by Sporkinum ( 655143 )
      Likewise, but we have been looking at Sony's AIT4 200gb tapes. We currently use AIT3's at just over 100gb tape. Unfortunatly, AIT4 drives are not backwards read compatable with AIT3 or AIT2.
    • At the beginning of the CDrom era, a CDrom handled more space than most of HDs over there (at least the personal computer HDs). You were lucky if your HD was 200Mb!!. I guess we would be happier with something of about 100Gb right now, but I agree that 30Gb is more than enough.
    • i.e., they don't rot, like DVDs do.

  • Great! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Gr33nNight ( 679837 ) on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @12:51PM (#12500230)
    Now it will only take 20 of these to backup my porn!

  • Big deal (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @12:52PM (#12500250)
    Blu-Ray has had 8 layer 200gb discs for almost a year now: http://www.digitmag.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=44 30 [digitmag.co.uk]

  • Arg! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Enigma_Man ( 756516 ) on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @12:53PM (#12500256) Homepage
    Just imagine how many different models of CD(or whatever)-ROMs we're going to need now, and how many sub-versions (a-la DVD-R, DVD+R) we'll have.

    The packaging on burners will look something like this:
    16x4x16x DVD+RW / 12x4x16x DVD-RW / 5x DVD+R DL / 4x HD DVD+R / 32X HD3-DVD1-R+RW / etc / etc

    -Jesse
    • more likely 52x16x12x5x4x4x4x16x16x DV/C/HD DV/D+-*RW-ROM ;)
      kinda reads like a regex doesn't it?
    • that's okay with me, as long as they keep making new media the same form factor so that (at least theoretically) one drive can read them all. much better than being something completely new and requiring another drive bay.

      now if manufacturers can only decide on a flash memory format (SD, please! ...and maybe make CF the new CARDBUS or something...)
      • Why SD? You like slow cards that are a weird mix of large and thin? Why not the faster and smaller xD?

      • One drive to read them all (Score:5, Funny)

        by IPFreely ( 47576 ) <mark@mwiley.org> on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @02:57PM (#12501803) Homepage Journal
        Three Drives for the Movie-kings who plunder and ply,
        Seven for the Hardware-lords all but clones,
        Nine for Portal Men doomed to buy
        One for the DRM Lord on his dark throne
        In the Land of Discs where the data lies.
        One Drive to read them all, One Drive to write them,
        One Drive to bring them all and with their lasers byte them
        In the Land of Discs where the data lies.

  • Sweet. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by solios ( 53048 ) on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @12:54PM (#12500268) Homepage
    With something like this I'll be able to backup my workstation with ten pieces of media, instead of the seventy or so DVDs it would take to do a Full Backup.

    Seriously, it's about time offline media started catching up with hard drive capacities.

    • Re:Sweet. (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Knytefall ( 7348 )
      Except you'll notice that the article doesn't talk about a triple-layer HD DVD-R format. That's because the DVD forum hasn't really been moving too swiftly on multi-layer recordables at all. Notice that there's no DVD-R DL (that's the Toshiba-led DVD Forum's format) -- only DVD+R DL (the competing Philips-led camp.)

      Since we're not going to see DVD-R DL until at least the end of the year, that means we're probably not going to see HD DVD-R until next year, and HD DVD-R triple-layer for years!

      They should
    • Erm, use a second hard drive, or tape, or something that was designed to make backups on? Seriously, why in hell would you ever wish to backup your workstation to DVD???
      • Non-magnetic media that doesn't become useless if it's dropped or the enclosure it's in dies versus spreading my sources of failure beyond a single point?

        I'll pass.

        Besides, I already mirror to a terabyte RAID. This shit STILL needs to be offlined after projects are Done, etceteras.
      • Erm, use a second hard drive, or tape, or something that was designed to make backups on? Seriously, why in hell would you ever wish to backup your workstation to DVD???

        Because a '30GB' tape drive which is of course only a 15GB tape drive costs $2,000 which is more than the price of most workstations these days and ten times the price of a hard drive.

        Tape systems are slow, expensive and flakey. The media they use costs several times the cost of the media they are backing up. They are bulky, prone to be

        • Because a '30GB' tape drive which is of course only a 15GB tape drive costs $2,000 which is more than the price of most workstations these days and ten times the price of a hard drive.

          You're certainly exagerating things a bit there. I recently priced out a Certance CL 400H LTO-2 external tape drive for about $2000; 200GB tapes are ~$50.

          I opted not to go with that, and instead got a disk based solution coupled with remote storage. But tape certainly has its place.. it's actually really fast when you're

  • Need More Cheetos (Score:3, Funny)

    by lbmouse ( 473316 ) on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @12:54PM (#12500280) Homepage
    Twelve hours of high-definition pr0n on a single disc.

    • Re:Need More Cheetos (Score:5, Funny)

      by JudgeFurious ( 455868 ) on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @12:57PM (#12500318)
      Cheetos?
      WTF do you do when you're watching porn?

      C'mon, start talking. The rest of us want to know whether or not to be afraid.
      • ex-gf had an expression for friday nights when no one was doing anything. she said she was just going to have to sit around home in her underwear watching porn and masturbating til her pubic hair turned orange

        perhaps she knows the grandparent poster?

    • Re:Need More Cheetos (Score:4, Funny)

      by saider ( 177166 ) on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @02:27PM (#12501411)

      A man walks into the doctor's office complaining of a discolored penis. Doctor gives him a pill and asks him to return in a week.

      He comes back the following week with the same condition. Doctor tries a stronger medication and again asks for a follow up.

      The third visit shows no improvement so the doctor asks what he's been doing with it lately.

      "Same thing I do every night. Come home from work, grab a beer and a bag of Cheetos(TM) and watch some porn."

  • As stated previously, when they decide on a standard, let me know. I'd really like to get a burner, and I know that it will probably work well and be compatable for some time. However, I don't want to buy something and then have it become obsolete just after I buy it. Guess I'm just too cheap.

  • Deja vu all over again (Score:4, Funny)

    by amliebsch ( 724858 ) on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @01:00PM (#12500352) Journal
    This is what, the 42nd new DVD format this week?
  • 1) Even if it has a "scratch-proof" surface, data gets much more delicate. Think about it, 45 GB of data on one disk. If this disk gets broken, you lose a whole lot more than having the data on 10 DVDs and losing one.

    2) It is still a mechanic, spinning system. Which sucks, because it has to accelerate first, then it can read. If there is an error, it decelerates.. well, you know it already. It blocks parts of the system, and is downright annoying.
    OK - the data density is MUCH higher than in a CD. But no on
    • Your first point is the kind of argument that's lead to me seeing "Please insert disc 7" when I install large software packages on my computer. Microsoft Visual Studio, for example, and Propellerheads' Reason, Sonic Foundry ACID Pro, M$ Encarta, and several popular games I don't have time to play: Doom 3, Half-Life 2, Final Fantasy XI, etc etc. I know Doom, HL2, and Encarta are available on DVD -- that's great, but why are they released on CD at all? Because of old-fashioned marketing people pitching your f
      • Actually, his first argument wouldn't apply to "multi-disk" installs since the entire set becomes worthless if you lose one, as with your floppy disk example (Boy, I've been there...). Instead, I propose that they were released on CD because CD drives are much more common, having been around longer. A person with a DVD drive can still read a CD, but a person with just a CD drive can't read a DVD. Maximize your potential market by making your product accessible.

        Autodesk has an interesting system... they'll
    • 1) Even if it has a "scratch-proof" surface, data gets much more delicate. Think about it, 45 GB of data on one disk. If this disk gets broken, you lose a whole lot more than having the data on 10 DVDs and losing one.

      You're right, we need to go back to floppies... let's play it safe.

      "Please insert Disk 1,249,921"
    • 1) Even if it has a "scratch-proof" surface, data gets much more delicate. Think about it, 45 GB of data on one disk. If this disk gets broken, you lose a whole lot more than having the data on 10 DVDs and losing one.

      If that's what you're concerned about, just make 2 copies of each disk. What I'm concerned about is having to span disks to make something fit.. in that case, I'm twice as likely to have data loss that effects the entire backup..

      It's essentially the RAID argument. Some people look at RAID

  • Sounds like an interesting backup media.. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by the_rajah ( 749499 ) * on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @01:01PM (#12500371) Homepage
    Let's get the double layer ones at a reasonable price before we go crazy on this new one. I'm still seeing around $4 apiece for the doubles buying them online in bulk.

  • HOW IS THIS NEWS??? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ferrellcat ( 691126 )
    The HD-DVD folks have upgraded their inferior 30GB disc to a still inferior 45GB disc. (15GB per layer) Meanwhile, Blu-Ray still holds steady at 50GB. (25GB per layer) All of this is moot, of course, as Blu-Ray will prevail with an eventual max size of 200GB (8 layers) per disc, outdistancing a max size of 120GB (8 layers) per disc for the HD-DVD condortium.
    • Yup, you've got to hand it to Philips and mates, they always have the best technology. Let's hope they can conquer the media industry without giving in too much (such as on DRM).

      They seemed to have won the DVD market, DVD+R are more used in the Netherlands afaik, and have (a few) more technical merits than DVD-R.

    • the best technology always wins.... not.

  • 10-15 minutes of porn is sufficient for general public, really. No need to be HD quality either.

  • Trilogy on one disk (Score:5, Funny)

    by Nf1nk ( 443791 ) <nf1nk.yahoo@com> on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @01:07PM (#12500464) Homepage
    Not long ago I purchased the "Smokey and the Bandit" trilogy on DVD ($12.50 at Staples), and was suprised that it fit on one DVD.
    They used the trick of the double sided DVD to acomplish this mission.
    Since only Smokey and the Bandit 3 is on one side I can safely say that there at least one side with no quality data on it (how horrble must a script be for Burt Renolds to turn it down?)

  • Still not enough. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ThePurpleBuffalo ( 111594 ) on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @01:09PM (#12500485)
    Back when I first bought a CD burner, I did it to archive. Back then, a "big" consumer harddrive was around 1.2G and a CD held about half of that. Not bad for the time.

    These days a "big" consumer harddrive is around 250G to 300G, and this "great new technology" (yet to be released) will allow for about one fifth of that.

    That's simply not enough for me to justify using it as a method of data archiving or backup. To backup a single 250G volume I'd need 5+ blanks.

    On the consumer side of the equation, I can't see people moving from DVD to this unless there is some justification better than "you'll have to swap discs one third as often".

    Now, on the topic of size, since most optical media is recorded radially, why not make the physical size of the discs bigger? Not as big as LDs, because those were a little unmanageable, but another inch or two in diameter would GREATLY increase the capacity of even a DVD-R. Some will point out that it would no longer fit in a 5.25" bay, but who cares. This is why we have firewire and USB2.

    Thoughts comments?
    • Well there's a good reason not to make them bigger... it is a much more interesting challenge to work within an artificially imposed constraint than it is to just go ahead and remove that constraint. :-)

    • Re:Still not enough. (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Detritus ( 11846 ) on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @01:44PM (#12500907) Homepage
      Increasing the size of the disk also increases the workload on the servo system, the system that keeps the laser positioned over the track and at the right height. The larger the diameter, the larger the excursions side-to-side and up-and-down.

    • Re:Still not enough. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Heisenbug ( 122836 ) on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @02:31PM (#12501451)
      One reason I've heard for limiting the size is that the bigger the disk, the faster the outside edge is moving per RPM. When you're reading the inside edge at a suitable data rate, the outside edge will be shredding itself from the speed. I can't vouch for that being the reason, but it could be.

      Another reason I'd just as soon they didn't is that I have tons of ways to store CDs and DVDs, cases and racks and so on, and bigger disks wouldn't work with any of them. I imagine this is a much more serious problem further up the supply chain -- there's tons of ways that having identically-sized media saves money when moving to a new format.

      Oh, and I think bigger disks would be considered ugly by consumers, for whatever that's worth.
    • This may sound stupid, but since the surface area of a disk increases with the square of the radius, increasing the radius of a CD only slightly has a huge impact on capacity... Quick back-of-the-envelope calculation:

      120 mm disk: 11304mm^2 - 1625mm^2 hole = 9679mm^2 Your average CD or DVD
      130 mm disk: 13266mm^2 - 1625mm^2 hole = 11641mm^2 Difference: 20.3%
      140 mm disk: 15386mm^2 - 1625mm^2 hole = 13761mm^2 Difference: 42.7%

      That still fits in a 5.25" bay. Add multiple layers for added effect.

  • Hmmm (Score:4, Interesting)

    by nizo ( 81281 ) * on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @01:11PM (#12500512) Homepage Journal
    ...the new discs have the ability "to record twelve hours of high-definition movies on a single disc.

    Wow I need to get my calculator and see how many divix movies that is. Lets see, the whole battlestar galactica first season fit on 1 and a half regular (4GB?) dvds..... I could move my whole movie collection to a few mega-dvds, and my entire music collection to just one.

  • Clearly, the author... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Valiss ( 463641 ) on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @01:12PM (#12500523) Homepage
    ...of this article is out of touch with movie releases. I think he meant re-re-re-re-re-re-release of Star Wars. Then again, maybe I missed a "re."

    Quick, someone crash Goerge Lucas's computer before he reads this news!!!
  • ...will come out on a single disc! Finaly!

  • How much? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by qualico ( 731143 ) <worldcouchsurferNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @01:21PM (#12500626) Journal
    I bought into the Double Layer hype.
    The price of the CDs are prohibatively expensive.

    So no mater how many layers you cram onto a CD, unless the price is worthwhile, its useless.

  • Mostly posturing (Score:3, Insightful)

    by no_opinion ( 148098 ) on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @01:23PM (#12500640)
    Keep in mind that there are on-going talks on merging the formats (HD-DVD & Blu-Ray) next week so the timing of this is mostly political positioning. The change itself hasn't been discussed in the DVD forum and it's all vapor right now.
  • An HD-DVD will easily fit the amount of video that is now stored on a whole season-pack of DVDs. But people will not be willing to pay $120+ for a single disk. They will demand what was sold before for $120 for $20. And thus we will never get the potential of this technology. You'll still have to get Star Trek: The Next Generation on 7 packs of 7 DVDs, even though they could fit it all on 3 or 4. The worst heresy I've seen recently was Bandai putting 26 24-minute episodes of Ghost in the Shell: Stand A

  • TV sets won't come on 1 disc... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by BTWR ( 540147 ) <americangibor3NO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Wednesday May 11, 2005 @01:32PM (#12500756) Homepage Journal
    Take the Six Feet Under sets... they cost $100, but they're big and take up 6 discs, you almost feel like it "should" cost a lot. I mean, the thing looks and weighs as much as a hard-cover book.

    You're trying to tell me you're gonna try and sell a single disk for $100? No way. It won't happen. They'll still box them. And if people complain, they'll just add 40 hours of worthless crap to the discs to justify their 6-disc sets (instead of deleted scenes, they'll simply have 4 versions of each episode in their entirely, each differing by 30-seconds or so, or interviews with the "key grip," "costume designer," etc - it'll cost them pennies to tape those interviews, and they'll reap the benefits.).

  • And now some scratches and dust on these fragile disks hurts even more. Ever notice how CDs are a lot more resistant to abuse than DVDs? It's only gonna get worse. . .
  • With three layers, Blu-Ray will be able to handle 75GiB.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Do I smell yet another Star Wars re-re-release?

    Great. In this one, nobody shoots first.
  • This is all relatively secret, but yes, there will be another rerelease of the original trilogy. First, though, the LucasFilm team will have to work out some minor changes... [penny-arcade.com]

  • Standards (Score:2, Funny)

    by gnurob ( 880067 )
    Squishing all four seasons of the Trailer Park Boys into a single-layer DVD makes for more fun and is compatable with all DVD-R capable players. Call me when the fallout ends from all the next generation DVD standards (a.k.a. the company with the biggest war chest tells us what we want to buy).

    Recipe:
    4 lbs DVDs
    48 hours CPU time
    1 mplayer
    1 mkisofs
    1 cdrecord
    1 blank DVD ;-)

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