Linux-Based OS For Palm Hardware

slash.monster writes: "I was reading through Canadian Newswire today and came across this. Quoted from their press release: 'Linux DA O/S replaces the Palm O/S within the actual handheld device but still remains fully compatible with Palm's hardware, proving that Linux DA O/S is a flexible and powerful operating system. Using the open source Linux kernel, Empower Technologies has designed Linux DA O/S to be the first Linux compatible O/S scaled down for the Motorola Dragonball CPU platform used by Palm handhelds.'"

"I've got a Palm Vx, but I'm gonna get some friends to check this out. Should be interesting to see if thier claims are true." There is a free DEMO (their caps) version to download, says the release, but the final version will be payware.

repeat stories.

OK, I can understand a repeat story here and there, but this is getting *ridiculous*. I don't even think it's that important of a story, but for the last few weeks you'd think its the top thing on everyones mind. Speaking on behalf of all the readers, we have read it once, twice, three times, we understand, "The Page Cannot be Displayed". Why does this article have to be posted every hour? I think we're all well-versed by now that, yes, the page we are looking for is currently unavailable. And while it is also true that the Web site might be experiencing technical difficulties, and rumors abound that we may need to adjust our browser settings, is there any reason to continue to pound it into our heads? Your tips section does no good either. I have clicked the refresh button, the same story loads. Your information that some sites require 128-bit connection security does come timely as security is very important in this day and age, but I think if we've read it once, we've read it 1,000 times, literally. So let's go for a little more communication between the editors or something, because by this point surely we all know, "The page cannot be displayed".

Perl! Re:I hate to be the blasphemer, but...

Right now, there's no Perl. Once Perl is installed, everything is balanced in the world.

--
WolfSkunks for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.keenspace.com";

mini-review of the package

Disclaimer: I have not used a Palm device in over a year. I don't have one to test this on.

Inside the 4.6 MB are 3 files, the ROM @ 983K, and RTF file for the install docs @ 1.9MB and a PDF for the OS manual at 1 MB.
Pretty silly to have 3MB of docs for a 983K ROM. It smacks of Windows Bloated thinking.

The install guide is pretty basic. Backup your exiting OS and then flash the new ROM...

The OS guide is simple and basic. If you've used a Palm then you don't need it.

I could find nothing in the docs that tells me why this is any better than PalmOS. There are plenty of screen shots, but nothing that makes me think this is Linux. It just looks like a generic PDA GUI.

There's no sign of X or GNU or anything else you'd expect to see on any Linux box.

According to the docs the demo is missing alot of stuff that's in the full package. It looks like the PC side (Palm Desktop) is missing. There's no games either.

There is no mention of connectivity besides with the desktop and beaming stuff to other Palms. They don't even mention 'email'.

Based on what I've seen I'm underwhelmed by the whole thing. If I had a Palm I would not waste my time installing this on it.

Of course when somebody really installs it maybe they'll see something exciting about it that I've missed from the docs.

My guess is the company really just wanted to load test their servers so they unleashed this to get us to /. them. Pretty sneaky!

Re:download!

Sorry, IIIe's didn't have a flash ROM (kept costs down), so no, it won't work on a IIIe.

Re:Strange address

Learn to use the tools, children:

$ whois empower-technologies.com
[whois.crsnic.net]

Whois Server Version 1.3

Domain names in the .com, .net, and .org domains can now be registered
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.

Domain Name: EMPOWER-TECHNOLOGIES.COM
Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, INC.
Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com
Referral URL: http://www.networksolutions.com
Name Server: ANTARES.STARCON.COM
Name Server: STARRUNNER.STARCON.COM
Updated Date: 13-feb-2001

>>> Last update of whois database: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 02:02:47 EDT

The Registry database contains ONLY .COM, .NET, .ORG, .EDU domains and
Registrars.

[whois.networksolutions.com]
The Data in Network Solutions' WHOIS database is provided by Network
Solutions for information purposes, and to assist persons in obtaining
information about or related to a domain name registration record.
Network Solutions does not guarantee its accuracy. By submitting a
WHOIS query, you agree that you will use this Data only for lawful
purposes and that, under no circumstances will you use this Data to:
(1) allow, enable, or otherwise support the transmission of mass
unsolicited, commercial advertising or solicitations via e-mail
(spam); or (2) enable high volume, automated, electronic processes
that apply to Network Solutions (or its systems). Network Solutions
reserves the right to modify these terms at any time. By submitting
this query, you agree to abide by this policy.

Registrant:
LINUX DA INC. (EMPOWERTECHNOLOGIES2-DOM)
Unit 120, 13551 Verdun Place
RICHMOND, B.C. V6V 1W5
CA

Domain Name: EMPOWER-TECHNOLOGIES.COM

Administrative Contact, Billing Contact:
LINUX DA INC. (LD2286-ORG) [e-mail]
LINUX DA INC.
Unit 120, 13551 Verdun Place
RICHMOND, B.C. V6V 1W5
CA
604 278 3100 fax: [phone]
Technical Contact:
WorldNIC Name Host (HOST-ORG) [e-mail]
Network Solutions, Inc.
505 Huntmar Park Drive
Herndon, VA 20170-5142
1-888-642-9675

Record last updated on 13-Feb-2001.
Record expires on 18-Jan-2002.
Record created on 18-Jan-2001.
Database last updated on 18-Jul-2001 05:14:00 EDT.

Domain servers in listed order:

STARRUNNER.STARCON.COM 207.230.244.2
ANTARES.STARCON.COM 208.181.131.6


-

Re:ummm... GPL?

How many times do we have to go through this. The GPL states that you don't have to give away the code unless the person already has the binary, it also stats they they don't have to be available together.

Until you get it right, apparently :-)

The GPL states that you must OFFER the source code with the distribution. Your offer may refer to another method of actually obtaining the source code, but the consumer must be appraised of his or her rights at the time of distribution. (term 3b)

In addition, it must be accompanied by a copy of the GPL. (term 1 included by reference in term 3)

Therefore if the operating system comes to you without a copy of the GPL, or without a written offer to provide the source code or notice of where the source code can be obtained, then one of the following two statements must be true:

1) It's not Linux-based, and therefore although it may be distributed legally it's advertised fraudulently.

2) It is Linux-based, but it's being distributed illegally, as the copy of the GPL and offer of source code is required in order to comply with the terms of the GPL, and you may not distribute a derivative work of Linux unless you distribute it according to the terms of the GPL.

Not enough details...

There's a lack of details in that press release. Which is fine for a PR, I guess. But a couple thoughts struck me:

• Is there any sort of compatibility layer between their OS and Palm apps? If not, why would I want to run their OS if I can't get apps for it? Are there many Linux apps for the Dragonball?
• How does it handle syncing? If it can't hot sync, then it's all over...
• What sort of DEMO is it? If I install their demo and it ceases to work after 30 dayss or some such, I wouldn't be too happy. If it's honesty-ware (install it, if you keep using it pay up), then I would.
• How much is it going to cost? A $100 price point will dig their grave.
• Does their OS come with a set of GNU utils? Gotta have things like less or the OS isn't very handy.
• What sort of graphics/GUI/WM/whatever package does it use? If it's some form of X then I'd be happy...

And I have a bunch more questions that a lot of other people will ask. But if anyone has any details, please share. I've been wating to dust off my old Palm (aye, there's a joke in there somewhere). If this is cheap enough and has enough functionality, I might just try it.

-B

Let's get a few things straight.

These guys did NOT port Linux to the palm; it's already been done. They may have put something together to make it install easier, they may have developed some-palm type apps,which would be god...

But, given the propaganda-like marketroid speak they use, I'd say they are mainly trying to cash in looking like a linux player.

They're the first?

Perhaps it's the first complete distro, or something, but I highly doubt they did all this by themselves. Remember ucLinux [uclinux.org]?

Re:mini-review of the package

"Pretty silly to have 3MB of docs for a 983K ROM. It smacks of Windows Bloated thinking."

Bullshit.
The more documentation the better. I'd much rather open up an organized, searchable PDF than go searching through 5 years of newsgroup posts to find out how to change the default color of the pointer thingy. Poorly documented applications better come with very well documented code.

Price details...

They list a price tag of $39.99 for the "Consumer" package, and $59.99 for the "Professional" package. Both are available for the Palm IIIx/IIIxe and Palm Vx.

(Seems to me that this is a severely limited subset of all the Palm platforms that are out there...)

The Consumer pacakge comes with your standard apps, ToDo, Expense, etc, and the Professional package adds their SDK.

Of course, they have no screen shots or other means to evaluate how well the apps replace those available with PalmOS, and no details on how to install. I'd want those details before I'd commit $60, even if I did get a free t-shirt from their amazingly annoying blinking ad.

Payware???

There is a free DEMO (their caps) version to download, says the release, but the final version will be payware.

Pay...ware? Linux? Me not understand?

The site www.linuxda.com says:

SINGLE COPY LICENSE The materials at this Site are copyrighted and any unauthorized use or reproduction of any materials at this Site is prohibited. You may download one copy of the information or software ("Materials") found on Empower sites on a single computer for your personal, non-commercial internal use only unless specifically licensed to do otherwise by Empower Technologies Inc. in writing or as allowed by any license terms which accompany or are provided with individual Materials. This is a license, not a transfer of title, and is subject to the following restrictions: you may not (a) modify the Materials or use them for any commercial purpose or for any public display, performance, sale, or rental; (b) decompile, reverse engineer, or disassemble software Materials except and only to the extent permitted by applicable law; (c) remove any copyright or other proprietary notices from the Materials; (d) transfer the Materials to another person. You agree to prevent any unauthorized use or copying of the Materials.

Excuse me, but I thought Linux is under the GPL license or something?

Dada.

Re:Scary thought...

Holy Budda. The Linux/Slashdot community has just become a 'great nation;' it's advanced enough to discriminate against random people based on their origin. This is one of several posts trying to insinuate (or flat out claim) that being in Redmond is somehow damning. It frightens me. The mistakes of others indeed... Why do I have a sudden image of a rainstorm, a muddy road, and a wrought iron gate. As I look up the gate, I can make out words: "Arbeit macht Frei (wieleicht Bier) Software"

Strange address

Strange, on Empower Technologies' site, they list the address of their HQ office at :

Empower Technologies Inc.
Redmond, WA
USA
Tel: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Funny, they have no street address. Furthermore, they're listed as "Empower Technologies / Rdm" on the yellow pages.

The only reason I can think of for them not wanting to state their address is because they're ashamed of it, or because they strategically want to hide it. And the only address I'd be ashamed of or I'd want to hide strategically in Redmond is "1, Microsoft Way".

I wonder if ... no, it cannot be ! Maybe Empower Technologies is an offshot from Microsoft trying to take the palm market over using ... LINUX ! ARRGH SOMEBODY STOP THEM !!!

ummm... GPL?

OK, it's Linux, right? which means GPL. SO, where are GPL info? not on the site. There's not a copy of the GPL, not a mention of it, and they provide an email address for licensing info ([e-mail] [mailto]). Legal info is here [linuxda.com], and does not suggest GPL at all. Of course, the software won't be availble for 1 1/2 hours as of this writing, so it might change, but I have to wonder what's going on. I think that if (when?) binary-only copies appear I'll send an email. Anyone care to correct any of this?

Re:I hate to be the blasphemer, but...

What can Linux do on a Palm device that PalmOS already does admirably well?

Multitasking [uclinux.org]

Also multihreading [uclinux.org]

---

The best of both worlds...

Imagine having the raw horsepower and storage of a Palm combined with the user friendliness of Linux! Let's not forget about the wealth of Linux applications that have been optimized for a Dragonball CPU, a 160x160 grey-scale LCD display, and no keyboard.

Who cares if you can't use standard Palm apps and lose all of the functionality of the Palm as a handheld organizer? It's all worth it when you can enter ls -l with the stylus and watch cryptically named files scroll past (in a smeary, LCD kind of way).

download!

The demo can be downloaded in exactly 1 hour from right now right here [linuxda.com].

Does anyone know if Palm IIIx compatibility means Palm IIIe compatibility? Because if it doesn't, my interest level is dropping fast.

(proud Palm IIIe owner ;-)

___

Predictable license point

see:
http://www.linuxda.com/legal.html

hmmm, they don't sound the most open source of people. Presumably they'll have to release the kernel part under GPL but I dare say all the other stuff (address box, calender etc) were developed in house and so they can license them any damn way they like - much like Tivo in fact.

Great!!

Now I'll be able to hook my Palm up to my HP 3300C scanner....oh, wait a sec.....

I just spoke with Michael in customer service...

I just finished downloading and installing the image into my TRG Palm III. Of course, since the TRG units have a different offset to load the kernel, the image would not work.

I called linuxda customer support, and was connected to a gentleman called Michael. He was very pleasant, and I explained that I needed the source code (as required by GPL) to correct the issue and make the image work for me.

Verbatim :

Michael : "We have the image available for download. The source code is not going to be available."

Martin : "I am aware that your own programs are not under the GPL, however are you aware that you must release the source to the kernel and changes you have made to it, as well as the source code to any other GPL programs that may be in the image?"

Michael : "Yes, we are aware of it. We will make the source code for that available in a few weeks."

Martin : "Are you aware that this is something of great concern to both the linux and open source community?"

Michael : "We are aware. We want people to download [ the image ] first."

Martin : "Allright. Let me give you my email address, I would like to be notified as soon as the source for the GPL code becomes available."

Michael : "Yes, I will do that. Please send email to [e-mail]"

-----

In my opinion, the people in charge at Linux DA may not have realized how strong community backlash is when source code is not released. It would probably go very well for us if we sent a POLITE email to [e-mail] requesting that the source code for GPL code used be made available as soon as possible.

A possible form letter to use :

To Whom it May Concern,

I am a user/developer of open software. It concerns me greatly that your company has released a binary-only image of GPL'ed (Gnu Public Licence) software. Releasing and distributing GPL'ed software without simultanious release of the source code is in violation of the GPL licence.

I respectfully urge you to release and make available for general download the source code to any GPL code and modifications/patches your company has made to the code as soon as possible. As a user and/or developer of open source software, it is important to both myself and the community at large that the terms of the GPL be adhered to both in the sentiment, and letter of the law.

Sincerely,
(insert your name)/(email address)