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Nvidia Lauds Windows CE Over Android For Smartbooks
Posted by
timothy
on Thu Jun 18, 2009 02:06 PM
from the this-is-2009-ce-after-all dept.
from the this-is-2009-ce-after-all dept.
ericatcw writes "Google's Android may enjoy the hype, but an increasing number of key industry players say the mobile OS isn't ready for ARM netbooks, aka smartbooks. Nvidia is the most recent to declare Android unfit for duty, stating its preference for Microsoft's Windows CE, which an Nvidia exec praised for having a "low footprint" and being "rock solid." Nvidia is busy optimizing its multimedia-savvy Tegra system-on-chip for Windows CE. Such improvements won't arrive for at least a year to Android, which has an inflexible UI and poor graphics support for devices larger than a smartphone, says Nvidia. Other firms echoing similar criticism include ARM and Asustek."
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So... (Score:5, Insightful)
So you're saying software designed for mobile phones doesn't work as well on a little computer like device [wikipedia.org] as software which was designed for little computer like devices [pdagold.com]?
Wow. Amazing. Incredible.
And they're the same age too!
No, wait, Windows CE is 13 years old. It's had a little more time to design the window manager for different screen sizes.
Re:So... (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Well the ARM quote, if you RTFA, is:
She also mentions Moblin as a possible alternative.
I cannot actually see what is so good about Android. Why not Maemo, or the mobile optimised versions of distros such as Ubuntu. It is going to take Android a long time to catch up with the range of software available for real Linux.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
There is always mer, the community offshot...
its being applied to a increasing number of devices outside of the nokia tablets these days (like say two similar products from china, the smartq5 and smartq7).
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I'm not sure that Windows CE does suck.
It's important to remember that Windows CE is like J2ME, except that it is a family of operating systems instead of a family of platforms. It has various manifestations and configurations, the familiar PDA or smartphone versions are just instances of this. I have issues with Windows Mobile, which lacks certain features it ought to have given its ambition. I have more issues with the SmartPhone Edition, because MS and the manufacturers kiss carrier ass and so make
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I'm not sure that Windows CE does suck.
No, really. It sucks.
nothing I've seen indicates to me that the underlying platform, the actual Windows CE part of the products, sucks.
Nothing I've seen indicates to me that there are any redeeming features of Windows CE.
For a NetBook type device, my concern would be the configuration limitations MS would put on it to keep from cannibalizing its own Windows product line. But of course that's the kiss of death. You have to cannibalize your own product line sooner or later.
They don't have to do that, because Windows CE is not ANY kind of competition for Windows NT. It's simply not capable of doing what NT does, which is to say, stay running while running multiple applications.
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Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
While I agree with everything you've said here, and that the age of Windows CE makes the comparative shortcomings in Android somewhat excusable, it doesn't change the fact that Windows CE seems to do what NVidia wants and Android doesn't.
Android being new is a perfectly valid excuse, but in a here-and-now business sense Nvidia just has to go with what works... I guess.
Writing this is hurting me. I really, really hate Windows CE (or Windows Mobile or whatever they call it these days.)
Parent
Re:So... (Score:5, Funny)
I really, really hate Windows CE (or Windows Mobile or whatever they call it these days.)
I'm still fond of calling it "wince"
Parent
The real issue .... (Score:3, Interesting)
Android doesn't use X - nVidia have drivers for X and for Windows - but not for Android - so no one's choosing nVidia hardware for Android - so nVidia's discouraging people from using Android ....
Just wait, if they're smart a year from now they'll have Android drivers and wont have a problem with it
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And ultimately people forget that Android is really Linux + a framework. Once you understand Android = Linux + framework, its easy to see your point is 100% accurate. There is no technical merit here. It's all about cross promotion and marketing. In short, the article is nothing but a marketing fluff piece meant to convince the simple minded that Android doesn't have technical merit.
Make no mistake about it, Microsoft is very scared of Android. Android is Google and Microsoft has been very mindful who is pu
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I'm still just confused by the terminology. In the explosion of marketing names for things in between a phone and a laptop, I guess I missed the "smartbook". I assume that's like a netbook, only retarded? Because if there's one thing I know about computer terminology, it's that the word "Smart" always means anything but.
Corrupted opinion? (Score:5, Insightful)
Isn't this NVIDIA opinion somehow influenced by having Microsoft as customer for their Tegra chips going to upcoming Zune HD?
Of Course (Score:2, Insightful)
Drivers (Score:4, Insightful)
From TFA:
"The world soundly rejected the first netbooks that came out with Linux," he said. "Printers didn't work, and devices didn't get recognized. The whole thing was a mess."
I'm sure all printers come with WinCE drivers these days. Or maybe Nvidia knows how to install Vista drivers on CE?
ARM hostile to Linux? (Score:5, Interesting)
I was at a conference in 2002 where the chairman of ARM, Sir Robin Saxby, gave a keynote talk on ARM. In the Q&A session afterwards one of the attendees asked what Mr. Saxby thought of Linux - he replied that it was a toy operating system that would never amount to anything, and that open source was a useless strategy for developing software and he didn't see any place for it in the business world. The hall erupted with various PhD students and postgrads raising their hands, and after three people all said basically the same thing - that they use Linux and think open source is great - the chair had to say no more Linux questions. But after hearing what the guy at the top had to say, it would never surprise me to hear that ARM might be hostile to Linux and open source, even when it's running on their own chipsets.
Re: (Score:2)
That was a pretty rich comment given the state of Linux in 2002.
I would expect that nvidia would have an easier time porting their driver to Linux ARM than WinCE.
Re:ARM hostile to Linux? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, back in 2002 he was not the only one. He has probably changed their opinion now that Linux is crucial for their survival.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Well, back in 2002 he was not the only one. He has probably changed their opinion now that Linux is crucial for their survival.
Maybe, or maybe he still hates it but is forced to accept it. I mean, I need oxygen to survive but I still hate that piece of shit element.
Not surprised (Score:3, Funny)
It would be either that or not having Nvidia support on Windows 7 SP 1...
Who needs Android? (Score:5, Interesting)
Why is this surprising? (Score:3, Interesting)
A company that only begrudgingly supports linux with a massive binary blob and no real support thinks that it may be easier to support a platform where that kind of treatment is considered the norm. This does not surprise me. I have a lot of respect for the nvidia linux engineers and they seem like knowledgeable and good guys but, I would imagine that management has tied their hands and this is a political rather than an engineering decision.
Non-sense quote about device support (Score:5, Insightful)
Mike Rayfield:
"The world soundly rejected the first netbooks that came out with Linux," he said. "Printers didn't work, and devices didn't get recognized. The whole thing was a mess."
And how is Windows CE/Mobile any better in that regard? I would think it's even worse.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually it could be worse.
How many people will buy a printer that "works with windows" only to have it fail on a WINCE netbook?
Hey Windows is Windows.
A bunch of FUD? (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe I don't get it, but this looks like a concerted FUD campaign against Android. I don't know much about the Android internals, but isn't graphics hardware acceleration handled in the DRM part of the Linux kernel? What does this have to do with Android?
Presumably Android would have to implement the rest of DRI (if they don't use the existing Linux infrastructure / didn't do so already), and next their equivalent of a X.org video driver. But what's the big deal?
Also, all video and graphics rendering in Android is done today by the operating system's Java code, a technique he says is too slow for HD video.
"There's no hardware acceleration. It's all software," Rayfield said.
So, huh? Because it's Java it can't use hardware acceleration?
Other major problems include the fact that the Android icons are too large, and apparently it's gonna take one year to make them small... Well, that makes a lotta sense.
It would make more sense if nVidia said "We're already having a hard time with binary blobs for those lousy x86 linux geeks. Now they want to do that for ARM too, and even worse, for something that doesn't use the X.org architecture. I say we better get together again next year."
corruption and collusion (Score:5, Interesting)
After twenty years of Microsoft corrupting the industry and colluding with other companies to place their products, how can anybody take such statements seriously? Nvidia has strong ties to Microsoft, and when Microsoft tells them to jump, they simply ask "how high".
Personally, I think Android is not a very good choice for netbooks; Ubuntu Netbook edition is a much better choice. But Windows CE wouldn't even make my list of a usable netbook operating system.
Re:corruption and collusion (Score:4, Insightful)
Personally, I think Android is not a very good choice for netbooks; Ubuntu Netbook edition is a much better choice.
It's disturbing how many people still don't realize that software that's designed for a specific purpose is better at that purpose than software that was designed for some other purpose.
Parent
Wrong way around? (Score:4, Interesting)
Apparently someone doesn't appreciate the difference between hardware and software.
Re:Wrong way around? (Score:4, Informative)
Optimising hardware for software is not new, especially in the mobile market place. Most ARM cores, for example, have some specialised instructions to make it easier to implement a JVM (including things like bounds-tested array accessors). A lot also have special instructions in their DSPs aimed at making things like MPEG or H.264 decoding (or even encoding) fast. A GPU is basically a CPU specially targeted towards implementing something like OpenGL or Direct3D.
That said, optimising a SoC for an OS is a bit weird. You're meant to optimise for the applications, not the OS. If the OS needs the hardware optimised for it, and does much more than keeping out of the way of the apps (and making sure that the apps keep out of each others' way) then the OS is probably fundamentally broken.
Parent
Wait a minute (Score:4, Interesting)
1) Poor UI - what he is talking about? Windows CE is a mess. Yes, Windows Mobile 5 was kinda Teletubies land as Windows XP, but still, it's a huge mess stiched together
2) Doesn't support devices larger than smartphones? Ohh boy, yes, it doesn't, because it doesn't aim for it!
Sounds like Microsoft partner trashing competitor. Propably there are technical reasons why Nvidia have chosen Windows CE, but these doesn't sound like valid one.
Re:Wait a minute (Score:4, Informative)
Although Windows Mobile is based on Windows CE, they are not the same thing. Windows Mobile is a specific set of applications on top of Windows CE with a single (visible) application - a PDA or phone. Windows CE itself can be used with a keyboard and mouse and has the ability to act as a standard desktop system (with multiple windows visible, a method to switch between windows, etc.)
Parent
NVIDIA doesn't like Linux in general on TEGRA (Score:5, Interesting)
I work for a very large computer manufacture who is coming out with an ARM based PC. We looked at Marvell, Freescale, and NVIDIA. NVIDIA was the only one who has no support for Linux and because of this was marked off right away. Besides there lack of support for Linux there ARM CPU is pretty weak compared to Marvell and Freescale, there only advantage is the GPU. But because of the lack of Linux support we crossed them off right away. There really only hurting themselves.
It's all about the VM. (Score:3, Interesting)
Android OS crashes--??? Haven't seen it crash yet (since Dec 2008). Apps have crashed, or the phone needs a reboot due to lack of force close, but the phone recovers nicely on app crashes. Apps crashing on any of the above devices usually result in an OS crash as well.
.
There's a reason why VM's make sense. Especially when you're mobile. Nvidia is shooting themselves in the foot on this one.
Re: (Score:2)
I mean 20+ years of experience and all perfectly working C/C++ code and libraries have to be thrown out of window ? Cmon Google. Java is a nice toy, but unfit for production, get real.
Someone has never heard of JNI [wikipedia.org].
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"You do know that you can use C/C++ code right? JNI is fully supported you know."
You do know Google doesn't really officially support native code apps and there are no defined native mode API's to access the things you might want to access in native mode like graphics and audio. There are interfaces there but they are internal, not published and are "use at your own risk". If you use them chances are relatively high your native code will break the first time Google puts out a new version of Android.
I think
Re: (Score:2)
You are talking pure nonsense.
First, for many devices it is not about speed, it is about security. Java provides a very robust security framework to run untrusted code. If you were to make a similar security framework for C/C++, you would end up with Java.
Second, if Java runs too slow for you - buy a better CPU.
Third, I doubt you realize how many productions systems are running Java. My department alone is running a multi-million dollar platform all on Java.
Last, you actually can run C/C++ code on Android.
Re:Android = no native code support (Score:5, Insightful)
As Wikipedia says [wikipedia.org], native code runs under Android fine. The Chrome web browser runs on Android. Chrome is not written in Java.
What you might mean is that you can't run native code on some specific mobile phone type device without hacks, and that you can't upload native code to the App Store. That much is true. In the first case, some manufacturers like to lock down their devices - the iphone is also pretty much locked down. In the second, Google want platform independence. But Android itself can clearly run native code - most of the software that it ships with is written in C. And you can distribute and install whatever Java code you want on any Android device, which is better than Apple's "you only load what we want you to load on a phone" rules.
Parent
Re:Android = no native code support (Score:4, Insightful)
Google gives you Java (for App Store), but their own applications run native code?
Yes, because they want everything in the app store to be forward compatible: in future Android might run on chips that are not ARM, so native code would break, and though it would be the developers' fault it would still make their app store look bad.
Windows CE runs native, the portability point is pretty invalid.
Most of the native apps run on ARM chips only, and won't work e.g. on MIPS based devices (also supported by Windows CE). The portable apps use .NET Compact Framework, so the situation is more or less equivalent to Java.
on iPhone I have proper GCC/G++ compilers
Which you can't use without jailbreaking, so your argument is instantly moot.
Parent
Part Of The NVidia Zune HD 'Agreement' (Score:5, Insightful)
This is standard operating procedure for Microsoft contractees. Happened just this last month with Asus where as soon as Microsoft negotiated a new deal with Asus, Asus out of the blue started spouting anti-Linux FUD.
The Zune HD contract with NVidia obviously has the same type of garbage built in.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
If NVidia does not want a piece of Android business, it is NVidia's loss.
And AMD/ATI gain.
Modded interesting? Interestingly offtopic?
This is an ARM story. AMD doesn't do ARM, and while ATI does produce [amd.com] embedded graphics chips, I've never heard of them being paired with handheld devices.
Re: (Score:2)
AMD owns ATI. Thus, it is technically AMD/ATI.
Have you ever hear of NVidia (besides the Tegra we have yet to see) being paired with hand-held devices?
It is coming. New batteries, more efficient chips, more powerful cellphones. Everyone who's someone will be in that market
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Ah, that's very unfortunate for AMD/ATI. ATI exists the mobile graphics market right at the moment when it starts heating up.
Does the sale preclude ATI from developing new mobile graphics platform in the near future?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It's my understanding that Qualcomm purchase the engineers, equipment, and all the IP from ATI's handheld division. The purchase of the IP would seem to preclude them from developing anything new for the mobile market in the near term.
Citation [zdnet.com]
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
There's no such thing as a piece of the Android business. Android is a means to an end, not the end itself.
Re: (Score:2)
The ARM is non-x86 whether it runs Linux or WinCE.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Exactly what I was thinking. That is so incredibly ass-backwards - in terms of complexity, man hours, and cost, I don't know what to say. There is a REASON we don't do everything in silicon: it's cheaper, by far, to do it in software. You optimize your OS for the hardware, not vice versa.