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A New Way To Produce Hydrogen
Posted by
kdawson
on Sun Mar 01, 2009 05:20 AM
from the doctor-clark-i-presume dept.
from the doctor-clark-i-presume dept.
Iddo Genuth writes "Scientists at Pennsylvania State University and Virginia Commonwealth University are producing hydrogen by exposing clusters of aluminum atoms to water. Rather than relying on the electronic properties of the aluminum, this new process depends on the geometric distribution of atoms within the clusters. It requires the presence of 'Lewis acids' and 'Lewis bases' in those atoms (water can act as either). Unlike most hydrogen production processes, this method can be used at room temperature and doesn't require the application of heat or electricity to work. The researchers experimented with a variety of different aluminum cluster patterns, discovering three that result in hydrogen production."
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Al poduction consumes lots of energy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Al poduction consumes lots of energy (Score:4, Insightful)
Sounds more like they've basically just found something vaguely useful to do with waste aluminum.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Aluminium is 100% recyclable it would be a 200% waste. 100% because you waste the energy needed for production and another 100$ because you need to separate it from other elements and then refine it.
Re:Al poduction consumes lots of energy (Score:5, Insightful)
For all practical purposes, there is no waste aluminium.
Aluminium ore is plentiful but the costs to refine the ore into pure metal are very high. The technique uses tons of electricity to reverse the natural oxidation process. If you have post-consumer aluminium to start with, you can recover about 85% of the metal at a much lower energy cost. The lower energy cost is significant since it comprises 20% to 40% of the cost of production.
It sounds like these gentleman have discovered a faster way to get aluminium metal to oxidise to it's lower energy states with Hydrogen as a useful by-product. I'm curious how this would work past the surface area of an aluminium block. Aluminium oxide is incredibly durable, somewhat brittle, and rather impervious to oxygen. With a combination like that, the oxide protects the inner aluminium metal from further oxidation. I'll wager that's why their technique requires "small clusters" of atoms.
This sounds interesting as a use-once hydrogen battery, but it's not solving any global scale energy needs. The cost to produce aluminium metal is just too high. Still, it has a number of niche areas where it could be very useful. Aluminium could be seen as a high density battery for hydrogen powered fuel cells. It's relatively light, and could be incorporated into electrical generation systems for space vehicles.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Or for stationary fuel cells, you can truck in the aluminium in powder form, deposit in a bunker or tank and have the system churn that into Hydrogen in safe to store quantaties. You dont need much to run a house if you add solar/wind and good thermal design into the mix, even in countries with lower output from solar, or wind.
I dont see hwo this would be much different to how my father had an oil tank at home and had it filled once a year to run the central heating.
High Density Battery (Score:4, Interesting)
How energy efficient is the dis/charge cycle using this new process? And how dense an energy storage medium could such a battery be, say, compared to Li-Ion batteries (or to gasoline, the champ)?
If dis/charge is at all close to 90%+, and storing about 400Mj (the way a 16 gallon gas tank does at 20% internal combustion efficiency), in anything close to approximately 40 pounds for gas, then it's a replacement. Since the electricity powers lighter motors (electric instead of gas), and conserves nearly all the regenerative braking power, its capacity needs to be only less than 400Mj to compete, maybe 350Mj, or even less if we don't get the full range (about 600 miles in a gas hybrid), maybe 175Mj.
Since an (single use) aluminum battery [wikipedia.org] can be up to about 4.75Mj:Kg, (gasoline * 20% = 9.33Mj:Kg), the aluminum is probably twice as heavy for gasoline's energy. But if we can accept half the range, it might be OK, if this tech lets it recharge efficiently.
Better battery tech is very exciting. Energy storage is probably the worst link in all the alternative energy systems we're now looking at. Even if it's not good for cars, if the material costs less than lead-acid batteries (like under $36:Kj), it's a major advantage for home/building power. Even if just storing power during non-peak times for local discharge during peak times.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Depends how easily that aluminium oxide can be converted back to aluminium - if it is easy enough then this is a better cycle than electrolysis and might finally make hydrogen a sensible alternative energy storage medium than oil.
so we'll have to wait and see.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I think what you meant to say was "Lisa, in this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"
Re:Al poduction consumes lots of energy (Score:5, Interesting)
I probably shouldn't expect this, but RTFA!
They're not producing Al2O3, they're producing something similar to AL(OH)3. I say similar because they're using clusters of Al, not atoms/ions. It seems to me that simply adding a strong acid would revert these back to AL(H2O)3, resulting in the evolution of more H2, but I'm sure that's been considered already...
Parent
Re:Al poduction consumes lots of energy (Score:4, Informative)
Aluminum hydroxide is just hyrated aluminum oxide (alumina + water). So they are producing Al2O3. And making acids isn't free, either; that chemical energy has to come from somewhere.
Also, the reaction of acids with hydroxides doesn't produce hydrogen. It produces water and salts.
Parent
Re:Al poduction consumes lots of energy (Score:4, Interesting)
Agreed, I like this method better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_hydrogen_production [wikipedia.org]
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
The huge amounts of energy shouldnt be a problem, we could use hydrogen - its nice and clean.
Theyve just found a new way to make it. Using aluminum
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And what if you could use aluminium as the 'fuel' for your car? H2 is difficult and dangerous to store in a tank, but is nice as it runs in a more-or-less unmodified petrol engine. So if instead you could carry Al + H20 as the 'fuel', which creates H2, which your engine burns, the whole process is safer.
Still not..... (Score:3, Informative)
Still not economically viable, but hopefully continued research in hydrogen will replace the hype about plant based ethanol, which is not really a solution (because we need to eat corn, etc).
Re:Still not..... (Score:5, Insightful)
Pretty pointless - separating the aluminum from the oxygen will require the same amount of energy you got from the hydrogen.
Parent
Re:Still not..... (Score:5, Funny)
Not so. We'll just ship it to China, and they'll do it for a quarter of the energy that an American worker would charge.
[Suggested moderation: It's Funny Because Someone Will IPO a Company Based on This Premise and kdawson Will Run The Story For Them]
Parent
Being fair (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, I know that you meant to be funny, yet, somebody will be thinking of the same thing. Oddly enough as a child, I use to generate hydrogen doing this "NEW" way. We got
Re:Being fair (Score:5, Funny)
No, I'm pretty sure that would spoil the joke.
And I'm pretty sure that I covered that in the [bracketed section]. But thanks for beating the point to death with your remorseless logic. How's the weather on Vulcan this time of year?
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Pretty pointless - separating the aluminum from the oxygen will require the same amount of energy you got from the hydrogen.
All energy is not the same. Converting from a form of plentiful but difficult to use energy to something line electricity is what hydroelectric generators do.
So, if hydrogen can be produced easily from reaction 'A' and the components can be recovered and reused with reaction 'B' and reaction 'B' uses a plentiful, renewable, and clean energy, then it is a win.
Re: (Score:2)
You should have quoted the parent: for a moment I believed that you mistook energy production (ethanol) with energy distribution (H2 or electricity) as the GP did.
Re:Still not..... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hey, it doesn't say "A New Way To Produce Hydrogen For Free!"
I mean, I don't understand the reactions to this article. They just found out aluminum can be attacked by water via a sequence of Lewis acid-base reactions that result in a standard substitution reaction, depending on the geometry of the aluminum cluster.
It's a very interesting form of corrosion and people are acting like this is supposed to be a perpetual motion machine.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Hydrogen's not an energy source. It's an energy storage medium. If this eventually develops into a convenient method for producing it, it may be worth something in the long run.
Re:Still not..... (Score:5, Funny)
The problem is the aluminum can't be used over and over again, a problem which the scientists are working to solve.
"In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"
[I read the article, I know it says the same thing -- I'm criticizing it too.]
Parent
Recycling aluminum (Score:2)
[Citation Needed]. If you are thinking of the waste that appears when melting any metal, which is called "dross" in the industry, there are ways to handle it [google.com]
On the contrary, ethanol as a fuel is not only a solution, it's a mature technology [wikipedia.org]. My first 100% ethanol-burning car was a Brazilian 1983 Chevette, which I bought used in
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
On the contrary, ethanol as a fuel is not only a solution, it's a mature technology [wikipedia.org]. My first 100% ethanol-burning car was a Brazilian 1983 Chevette, which I bought used in 1985. The last time gasoline was sold in Brazil without at least 10% of ethanol was in 1976 [wikipedia.org]
But you're ignoring many, many facts to make your argument. It works in Brazil because of their climate and readily available sugar cane; which is a great source for ethanol. Corn on the other hand, is a poor source
Re:Recycling aluminum (Score:4, Interesting)
First of all, I just recently bought a car that runs on 100% ethanol, a Brazilian 2009 Peugeot 207 [peugeot.com.br].
You can travel through 100% of the country driving a car that runs on 100% ethanol. This has been true for the last 30 years.
Brazilian ethanol is obtained from sugarcane. Sugarcane does not produce food. It can produce either sugar or brandy, when it's not used for fuel.
How many cars total are actually running? There are a few million 100% ethanol cars in Brazil today and for the last 30 years [wikipedia.org].
There are over 35000 ethanol stations in Brazil [wikipedia.org]
ROTFL
You can make ethanol at home [google.com]. But why bother, when there's all the infrastructure in place? Does anybody make gasoline at home?
Really? Which ones [google.com] don't have ethanol cars?
I could go on, but this gets tiresome. Ethanol has been a reality for a generation, hydrogen is a pipe dream.
Parent
The big problems with this (Score:3, Insightful)
IANAC but the article sounds like it's another way of oxidising Aluminium. I can see this being very impractical for a few reasons. Main one it's incredibly hard to store aluminium in a way where it won't oxidise, especially as this would work would need it to be powdered and without that layer of oxidised aluminium on the top, it's incredibly reactive and dangerous.
You're then left with a large pile of Oxidised aluminium which I don't believe has any use apart from the production of 'pure' aluminium (which requires lots of electricity). Ultimately I can't see this offering much benefit over existing methods of hydrogen production
and round and round we go (Score:4, Insightful)
It's just so entertaining to watch people find "free energy" in some form or another, by consuming some commonly available thing to produce energy, all the while completely ignoring the energy required to make the consumable.
Someone once described to me a process by which you use electrolysis to create hydrogen from water, and then burn that to create electricity, the surplus of which you can then use to create more hydrogen. (and you can even improve your yield by using the pure oxygen you are getting as a byproduct when creating the hydrogen!) And water is the free fuel! *SMACK*
Parent
Sadly not so for methane (Score:2)
Methane we produce the same old way.
Pass the baked beans, luv!
i have another way.. (Score:3, Funny)
.. pull my finger.
Grant Money (Score:5, Insightful)
Smells like someone's grant is about to run out. Solution: the press-release, stir things up a little, generate some news and attention, it's a common way to generate hype, interest, etc. As has been pointed out, they won't solve the fact that the aluminum in the process is not merely catalytic, but used up by the process. Little thing called oxidation. If only they had a bit MORE MONEY to solve the problem... for the next 30 years or so, put their kids through college, yada, yada ;P
If you ever found a way to separate water into its constituent molecules at room temperature, no energy input needed, no chemical input needed, etc., you'd have just solved the world's energy problems for all time.
Re: (Score:2)
Not to mention having violated the Law of Conservation of Energy.
Aw jeez, hydrogen AGAIN? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, three times the energy density of gasoline by mass but only one third the energy density by volume (and that's for liquid hydrogen).
Yes, fuel cells can be three times as efficient as burning gasoline, but it takes 2.5 times as much energy to make a hydrogen fuel cell than you'll ever get out of it over its lifetime. Where's that energy coming from? Milking invisible pink unicorns?
Ford has dropped development of hydrogen cars in favour of going straight to all electric.
Hydrogen is over before it even begun. It's less efficient than electric by any measure, and if you're betting on a big breakthrough (this isn't it) then the smart money is on capacitors (powered by wind, wave, solar, geothermal), not some magic leap forward in hydrogen production or fuel cell construction. At this point, it really is an academic proposition.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
i'm still not jumping in until they refine ultra capcaitors to the point i can get 500km out of them per charge. once that happens, sweet.
Why? (Score:3, Informative)
A super cap can take the power as fast as you deliver it. Personally, I suspect that new highend power stations would be develop for this, so that if doing a 100km/charge, then a fill up would likely take under a minute.
What is FAR more important is that car companies MUST come up with a STANDARD HIGH-END plug AND way to plug in?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
There's something that's never addressed with electric cars: heating and air conditioning.
Whilst you could sweat it out in a baking hot car, you can't drive with misted up or frozen wind shield. Heating and cooling both use huge amounts of power
Re:Why? (Score:4, Interesting)
That's very true. I don't see a way to address this without using up battery power that could have driven the car several miles further. However, I do see ways to reduce its effect:
Parent
Re:Aw jeez, hydrogen AGAIN? (Score:4, Interesting)
Electricity needs a storage medium. Batteries are not there yet. Capacitors may never be there.
For large scale energy storage, pumping water up against gravity is a good thing. A dam of some type. Hydrogen can be good for small scale things.
I think steam electrolysis of hydrogen will be a good way to go. All you need is a mirrored parabolic dish. No earth-made energy to use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-temperature_electrolysis [wikipedia.org]
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Electricity needs a storage medium.
My power outlet works just fine without a hydrogen tank in my house. Now with solar panels, windmills and whatever it might be different, but thats not where most of our power comes from for a long while to come. The big problem I see with hydrogen is that I just don't see how it would be more effective building a completly new infrastructure to ship hydrogen around, when we already have a perfectly fine infrastructure to move electricity around. Hydrogen also doesn't seem to be more efficient then latest b
Re: (Score:2)
Where's that energy coming from? Milking invisible pink unicorns?
Close.
Solar, wind, waves, hydro and combinations of all those.
Unless the problem is that someone would have to actually work a little before getting essentially free energy sellable to masses?
Re: (Score:2)
Thanks.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Where's that energy coming from? Milking invisible pink unicorns?
The unicorns aren't pink, they're blue [doe.gov], and unfortunately they're rather large.
Seriously, this (Al powder) isn't an energy generation solution, it's an energy distribution solution. Most (populated) areas have both water and oxygen in the air, so if you can get the water to this powder and get hydrogen back... that could be very interesting.
If you look at the overall efficiency of the fossilized oil cycle, starting with solar input and running through geologic time as a major part of the refining pro
the only possible application? (Score:4, Insightful)
To use water and aluminium as energy storage. We already have a pretty good global aluminium infrastructure.
If water could be combined with aluminium to produce hydrogen on demand, then you refuel by replacement of the aluminium oxide waste with fresh aluminium and refilling the water tank.
Then you still need a better method to convert aluminium oxide to aluminium - but here's the great thing about this research. Better ways to convert in one direction usually lead to better ways to go the other way too (eg, microdots convert electricity to light better, but also the other way round too).
Bio-chemical (Score:2)
All methods by which man-made hydrogen is produced today use more "usable" energy than results in the hydrogen. What we need to do is use hard to use energy like solar, geotherm, or something else.
*all* energy production comes from the conversion of hard to use energy into an easier to use form. Solar power is an inefficient means by which light is converted to electricity. Plants convert light very efficiently and produce sugar. We then use yeast to break that down into alcohol. Unfortunately that also pro
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Not really. It is reported as in range of 0.2% UP TO 6%. So it's already worse than our photovoltaic cells. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetic_efficiency [wikipedia.org]
There ain't no free lunch (Score:4, Informative)
This is not an article about making Hydrogen cheaply or efficiently, it's an article about an unusual chemical reaction, one of whose byproducts is Hydrogen.
You cant get something for nothing. For each Hydrogen atom let off, you have to spend an atom of Aluminum. Aluminum weighs 27 times as much as Hydrogen, so for every kilogram of Aluminum you burn up you get at most 38 grams of Hydrogen. Aluminum costs almost a dollar a kilo. That makes the Hydrogen cost at least $27 a Kilo. The market price for Hydrogen is around $2 a Kilo, so this process costs about 13 times too much.
Not news (Score:5, Interesting)
Come on. You can generate hydrogen by dumping aluminium foil in either sodium hydroxide (cheap plumbing cleaner) or in water containing minute amounts of HgCl2 acting as a catalyst. This is elementary and was known for decades. Those guys just found out that if they use insanely fine aluminium powder they don't need sodium hydroxide or mercuric chloride anymore. But this gets us nowhere, as we still need the aluminium, and making this insanely fine powder isn't free (both financially and energetically). The immediate practical value of this work in the field of energy storage is near zero. The only thing going for it is that the authors know how to generate interest.
What are the inputs? Does It Scale? Cold Fusion? (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3)
On the contrary; that reasoning makes the assumption that gasoline must be replaced, regardless of the inferiority of the replacement.
You claimed that