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Atheros Hardware Abstraction Layer Source Is Released
Posted by
kdawson
on Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:20 PM
from the no-blobs-here dept.
from the no-blobs-here dept.
chrb writes "With the recent discussion here on proprietary blobs in the Linux kernel, it's nice to see that today Sam Leffler has released the source for the Atheros Hardware Abstraction Layer under the ISC license, which is both GPL and BSD compatible. The Atheros chipset is used in many laptops, so this is another important step towards running a completely free distribution."
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Linux: Proprietary Blobs and the Pursuit of a Free Kernel 405 comments
jammag writes "Ever since the GNewSense team pointed out that the Linux kernel contains proprietary firmware blobs, the question of whether a given distro is truly free software has gotten messier, notes Linux pundit Bruce Byfield. The FSF changed the definition of a free distribution, and a search for how to respond to this new definition is now well underway. Who wins and what solutions are implemented could have a major effect on the future of free and open source software. Debian has its own solution (by allowing users to choose their download), as do Ubuntu and Fedora (they include the offending firmware by default but make it possible to remove it). Meanwhile, the debate over firmware rages on. What resolves this issue?"
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YAY (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a Macbook from just over a year ago, and it uses a Atheros wireless card, and it's the biggest pain to get running in Linux. Hopefully, with the Source released, it will be easier in the future to get the wireless working on this model of computer.
Yippee!! Will KisMAC finally work on MacBooks? (Score:3, Interesting)
I really hope the programmers behind KisMAC are reading this thread.
We MacBook users are really hoping that we can run injections and other advanced features using our built-in network cards now. Until now, all our packets were trash and we couldn't work out the SSID.
Sad days they have been, but now we have reason to be optimistic!
Interesting (Score:5, Interesting)
The argument about BLOBs - binary loadable objects in the kernel - is not new, despite Bruce Byfield's recent report. I guess he just doesn't read the kernel list and other distro internal discussions, where this has been going on for a decade. And FSF did not "redefine" anything, they've always held that opinion.
It would be nice to draw a line at the hardware bus, with all above that Open Source and all below that whatever the hardware manufacturer likes because we don't deal with it. But BLOBs break that, because they are both above and below the bus. If we're going to handle the code, we can't really deny that there's a computer there running closed-source code. And given the degree to which wifi firmware sucks the world would be nicer if it was Free Software. Now, we just have to drive some sense into FCC, etc.
Bruce
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually ath9k is fully open source by Atheros.
http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/26/2138228 [slashdot.org]
No firmware, no HAL, nothing.
I've bought two of the cards to support Atheros even though the drivers arent 100% just yet.
I also have a older b/g card which works superbly.
Parent
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Informative)
I have a new Acer Aspire One, with Atheros wireless, and have mostly got it running Debian properly - the biggest bugs I'm seeing may be in Debian Lenny rather than anything about Aspire One. A nice thing about this HAL release is that it makes Sam's virtual WAP software unquestionably Free - even from the BSD perspective. Did you ever want to connect to all of the WAPs you can reach at once, and be two or three different WAPs for others at the same time, all without carrying extra hardware? Sam's code can do that.
Being someone who speaks publicly about Open Source, I want to be seen using 100% Open Source. If you're going to talk the talk, you should walk the walk too.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This is interesting, as there are three Atheros drivers, all different. Madwifi uses the HAL. Ath5 is in the Linux trunk and doesn't (I think). Ath9 was developed by Atheros and probably uses the HAL but I didn't check.
I dont quite get the point of this then TBH, i mean it is nice to open source their code, but given that it has pretty much been reverse engineered already, isn't it a bit late!?
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Informative)
Especially since the kernel developers aren't going to let anything with a HAL into Linus' tree, entirely for architectural reasons. But it makes the best version of the driver at the moment fully free.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
BLOBs - binary loadable objects
Idiot.
Instrumentation Digital On-Line Transcriber ? Really, you should have been more creative. How about,
Blathering Retard Uttering Crass Euphemisms -- Probably Expects Responding Erudite Nameless Slashdotters
Now that sounds like a foolish person ;)
(with apologies to B.P.)
Sweet (Score:3, Informative)
Working sleep mode? (Score:4, Interesting)
Does this mean the sleep function will finally work as it should without draining the batteries? I have yet to see a laptop running Linux go into hibernate mode and not bleed off the batteries.
Re:Working sleep mode? (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Working sleep mode? (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Working sleep mode? (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
No, open sourcing this means nothing much and I doubt that now it's open source any part of the code will be changed because it's firmware.
Re:Working sleep mode? (Score:4, Insightful)
It means that community developers will be able to write a driver that works as well in any OS as the Windows one, in every way.
It means all those Linux netbooks that were sold with cheap Aths, will soon have completely robust, standards-compliant wireless. And all those sniffing network-trickery programs that the haxors love, will Just Work(tm). And development can proceed with mesh networking on a much wider scope.
Parent
Re:Working sleep mode? (Score:5, Insightful)
Right now, there is a larger team working on madwifi than just Sam, and the kernel team is working on ath5, so I don't think you're right this time.
There is another reason to expect this to result in a code improvement. The same netbooks that have the Atheros wifi often have Intel 3D as part of the chipset. Intel 3D is known to be horrible on Windows. Part of the problem is that desktop vendors don't want Intel 3D to be good, because they want to sell graphics cards. So, Intel has little incentive to make it better.
Except under X, that is. As far as I can tell, it works great under X. The X team at Intel is either not bothered with marketing hold-back; or because the source is public or satisfies a server market, they can justify a need for quality.
ATI will improve over time, and they will probably drive most of it themselves. Open Source will help them do that.
Bruce
Parent
Re:Working sleep mode? (Score:5, Interesting)
Hi, I joined X.org after ATI released docs, and helped add support for an entire line of video cards, including the one I'm using right now to type this.
Your defeatism is kinda silly, if you stop and consider how much work we've done in the open source world.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
WTF! i mean WTF!!! how did this get modded insightful? Any Linux system that is properly configured can hibernate there is no need for any hardware support for hibernate to work, all dodge drivers can just be unloaded reloaded!
Now if you meant suspend to ram, well madwifi has never given my system any problems when suspending to ram but this does (in theory) mean that the developers can delve deeper into the code should there be any.
Improved HAL (Score:2, Interesting)
OpenWRT and DD-WRT porting boosted by this? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Thats odd because all the Atheros chips are very open, and I think this is was the last bit that was closed.
I dont think there is anything left that is closed.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
When is the last time you've looked at this? The Nanostations [metrix.net], which are atheros based can run OpenWRT, DDWrt, etc. The big thing I see here is that with OSS HAL, maybe adhoc support on atheros will get better. Meraki, FON, and the ACCTON (openmesh.com) routers are all atheros too.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Atheros-based access points do work with OpenWRT. It works better than Broadcom-based devices. I replaced a Broadcom-based device with an Atheros-based one so it would work better, and run with the Linux 2.6 kernel. Only very recently has OpenWRT been able to run a 2.6 kernel with Broadcom-based wifi because the open drivers are getting up to scratch, and even then some things still dont work as well as Atheros wifi.
The Atheros wifi on OpenWRT uses the madwifi driver, so this opening up of the HAL will stil
Re: (Score:2)
QA (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Erm...What wifi chip are you using?
The good thing about manufacturers opening their drivers is you get a completely free distro and its fully functional.
Who is Sam Leffler? (Score:2, Interesting)
From the article apparaently he had "an agreement with Atheros" to "access to information about their devices". Does that mean he developed the HAL with little help from the company? (And apparaently he'll have no more access since the agreement is "concluded".)
It is nice to have an open source driver released, but it is NOT nice that an individual have to go jump through hoops and write it himself to make it happen.
Re:Who is Sam Leffler? (Score:5, Informative)
That's how a lot of them happen. What's worse is when an individual, or team of individuals, work for years to make some proprietary code unnecessary, all of the time knowing that only when they are done will the manufacturer of the proprietary code place it in Open Source.
Parent
Re:Who is Sam Leffler? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Good news; but blob related? (Score:3, Interesting)
It is very encouraging to see progress towards removing one of the most common causes of tainted kernels(probably second only to video card drivers); but it isn't really related to the blob question.
Re:Good news; but blob related? (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Why are there blobs? (Score:2)
Can someone please explain to me what the advantage (presumably to the hw manufacturer) there is by having binary loadable code on the computer? Why not just store it on the hardware? Is the h/w somehow cheaper to manufacture because this is done? I really don't see how that could be.. the things have flash memory already.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
If you make the customer load up the bits, you don't have to do it in the factory.
If the manufacturers could figure out a way to make the software build the card at install time and still manage to milk the customer of money, they'd do it.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Why are there blobs? (Score:4, Informative)
You are confusing blobs with firmware. Firmware is software run by the hardware's processor. It used to be stored in ROM, but ROM is expensive, and if the host has a lot of RAM (which any computer does in comparison to a WiFi card) it's cheaper to just give some of the RAM to the device and let it use that instead. This also has the advantage that it's easier to fix bugs in the firmware - just download a new version, rather than replacing the chip (some old cards had the ROM in a socket for doing this, but it was quite rare for anyone to actually do it).
This is not firmware, however, it is a blob. The kernel module originally just took commands from a userspace driver and passed them over the bus, much like the DRI modules. Unlike the DRI driver, the HAL was binary-only. It was originally claimed that this was required by the FCC, since with the source code anyone could modify the driver to push the card out of regulatory compliance. It was a far from satisfactory solution, however, since it meant that no one could fix the blob, and it was limited to x86-only.
Parent
ICS? (Score:2)
What's the ICS license [wikipedia.org]? I think someone may have got their acronyms mixed up... of course, that person may be me.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:DVD and Blu-ray (Score:4, Interesting)
In the UK this stuff is patent free because there are no software patents in England. It depends very much on where you live.
If Canonical made a UK distribution which included all the patented free software it would also create prior art in case of any changes in UK patent law.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
duh.. Hence why I said patented free software..
UK does have software patents (Score:3, Insightful)
I really wish people would stop repeating this myth that the UK (and Europe) are free of software patents. There many, many software patents here - you just have to write the patent in a certain way that gets around the very weak restrictions. See http://eupat.ffii.org/patents/samples/index.en.html [ffii.org] for sample of these patents with summaries, from an anti-patent group.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I didn't say Europe I said the UK.
because you didn't read it the first time..
I can't believe you were modded up. What stupid mods.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Because those movies are shit? Your local library has a better selection of Hollywood titles than the site you reference. Most of these have never been in circulation, and for a very good reason.
Not to mention some of the movies on this site are in formats that are not "free and open" like Linux. AVI, DIVX, MPEG4? Hell, one I looked at was itself a 4 gig ISO file of MPEG2 video. How far must one dig through the site before finding the OGG format videos?
Re:Well, this should brighten up Theo's day... (Score:4, Insightful)
1. If you remove someone else's name and add your own, that's plagiarism, not theft.
2. If you remove someone else's license, and the license doesn't give you permission to do that, that's copyright infringement, not theft.
3. If you add a new license and list yourself as an author, and the old license didn't give you permission to do that, that's copyright infringement, not theft.
4. If you don't enforce your copyright, that's nothing. Copyright gives you the right to sue, if you punt, that's your choice, stop moaning.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Very good. You can go take the bar exam. Meanwhile, in the real world, English is my fourth language. I'm a simple man using simple words.
So, just to double check with you - do you support or do you not support what the madwifi fuckers did with Reyk's code - specifically the reverse engineered bits?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Since Mr. Reyk hasn't filed suit, it's totally academic what the 'madwifi fuckers' did or did not do.
For someone who make such strong claims on being intellectually correct, this is an interesting position to take. So, in your world, as long as no suit is filed, any action taken is just "totally academic"?
If you have an axe to grind, take it up with them.
I don't really have an axe to grind. It's just two people in the madwifi group that did that "totally academic" but unethical thing. And have not apologized for it.
If, alternately, you have a thoughtful and reasoned criticism (and preferably some strong evidence for your allegations), please share it.
Umm... you did not manage to follow the original link that I had originally responded to? Would you like a signed and sealed piece of pape