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Doing the Math On the New MacBook

Posted by kdawson on Tue Oct 21, 2008 02:08 AM
from the compared-to-what dept.
Technologizer writes "Apple's new MacBook is a significantly different machine than its predecessor — a slicker laptop at a higher price point. But does it carry a large price premium over similar Windows PCs? I did a painstaking spec-by-spec comparison versus three roughly comparably-configured Windows machines, and came to the conclusion that the value it offers for price paid is not out of whack with the Windows world." The article uses the phrase "Mac tax," which one commenter points out is a recent Microsoft marketing canard.
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  • by Breakfast Pants (323698) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:14AM (#25450319) Journal

    I don't know who paid it, but someone did:

    The challenge of the thumbscoop was to create a crisply machined scoop that was still comfortable to use. The designers at Apple worked on hundreds of versions of the thumbscoop -- even examining them under an electron microscope -- to get it right.

    If anyone can read that last part without laughing...

    • by TitusC3v5 (608284) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:23AM (#25450353) Homepage
      Nonsense. Everybody who's anybody knows the real tax you pay with a Mac is the pain of being hipper than all of your friends.
      • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:29AM (#25450385)

        It's all relative. For the average slashdotter to be hipper than all his friends he can do any of the following:

        1. Walk up to a girl and say "hi".
        2. Move out of his parents basement.
        3. Shower.
        4. Stop reading /.
        5. Stop quoting The Simpsons/Star Wars/Monty Python/etc.
        6. Beat the Cheetos and Mountain Dew addiction.
        7. You know what - screw this list. I'm way too hip for this.

      • by Lumpy (12016) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @06:55AM (#25451669) Homepage

        I know you jest, but Every man that I see that touches one of the newest Macbook's has a wet stain on his pants and says in a low tone..."I must have this"

        Honestly, If Dell made a laptop that was near the macbook pro caliber in build they would sell just as well and cost as much.

        I tolerate dell lattitude laptops simply because the parts are dirt cheap. I have had "high end" sony Viao laptops and they are utter crap in build quality and design. Alienware laptops feel cheap and I dont want to carry a cartoon character around, they look incredibly dorky in the boardroom, I might as well have a giant "the TICK" sticker on my laptop and wear a TICK t-shirt.

        Well the hipper part is kind of fun... When you walk in with a laptop that makes the suits stare, and then you use keynote to show them a presentation that makes their best power point look like a childs crayon drawing... well yeah, it's nice to look hipper than the CEO that makes 40X your salary. You end up closing the deal far faster that way.

        it's why all our salespeople have them. That and the sales idiots cant infect a OSX laptop in 20 seconds with all their inane clicking and downloading. They still bitch they cant have windows laptops.

    • by caitsith01 (606117) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:55AM (#25450507) Homepage Journal

      From Apple's Macbook mini-site:

      All engineered to standards that don't even exist yet.

      So there you have it. If Apple is funding the development of technology to send their designers into the future, where they must then spend years infiltrating futuristic IEEE meetings before returning to the present to design laptops, then of course their machines will be a little more expensive.

      But just think of the money you'll save when you can browse the Omninet using remote mind-control in 3245AD while those Dell suckers are stuck with forking out for Dell's by-then outdated brain-implant technology.

      • by GrahamCox (741991) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @05:58AM (#25451361) Homepage
        From Apple's Macbook mini-site:

        All engineered to standards that don't even exist yet.

        Even as a Mac user/developer this makes me cringe. Ewww...

        • by goombah99 (560566) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @08:55AM (#25452831)

          From Apple's Macbook mini-site:

          All engineered to standards that don't even exist yet.

          Even as a Mac user/developer this makes me cringe. Ewww...

          There's at least two things they are referring to.

          1) Snow Leopard will support OpenCL. You might say well so what, eventually my Dell will to, after all that's what Open means. True, but look at the architecture in the macs. They elimiated the Northbridge and the Bus chips. The CPU now connects directly to the GPU.

          If you have ever tried to program an NVIDIA GPU for computational work you know that the slow step is shuttling the data back to the CPU. So having OpenCL with an insanley fast bus means that standard is going to actually be useful.

          2) the Open HD video connector.
          on the new macs, running H264 high def has dropped processor utilization from 100% to 20%, presumbaly because of the NVIDIA chip. So now streaming HD is going to be a reality and will actually exist for the mac world. And TVs that support the Open HD are becoming available.

    • by SoupIsGoodFood_42 (521389) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @06:12AM (#25451437) Homepage

      I laugh more when I walk into a computer store and look at all the plastic PC laptops. Nothing wrong with being cheap and functional, of course, but some of those laptops try too hard with silly designs because they have no eye for detail.

  • by Dogun (7502) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:17AM (#25450331) Homepage

    There's one major difference this analysis doesn't cover. If you're patient, you can get a dell for up to 40% off, and although it's not quite as drastic with Lenovo, the same is true. This macbook will ALWAYS be expensive.

    • by caitsith01 (606117) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:48AM (#25450479) Homepage Journal

      You will also get some brands of Windows laptop much cheaper by shopping around. In fact, Dell is one of the only companies who don't fall into this category.

      Not to mention that the review picks Lenovo and Sony, two of the most expensive brands. Where is Asus, for instance?

        • by kklein (900361) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @07:36AM (#25451985)

          After using half Windows and half Mac for 6 months last year, I switched totally to the Mac about 6 months ago. Here's what I've concluded:

          1) OSX is not very fast. I think it's bloated. I've got a ridiculous amount of processing power on this Mac Pro, but it just doesn't move that fast.

          2) XP is not very fast. I know it's bloated.

          So what's the difference?

          OSX is still as slow on my MacBook as it was the day I bought it. I've already formatted my XP Boot Camp gaming partition once this year to get my speed back.

          The big problem with Windows is that it gets slower as you go. I haven't noticed that at all with the Mac, even as I wantonly install and uninstall programs. I used to be terrified of what new programs would do to my XP machine. I just haven't had that problem with OSX. Plus, I have access to lots of cool things developed for UNIX that don't seem to slow anything down, stay out of my way, and Just Work.

    • by GreatBunzinni (642500) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @03:39AM (#25450731)

      Moreover, the Dell that was pointed out as being equivalent to the Apple laptop in the comparison is already 400$ cheaper.

      And yet the fanboys want to pass the Apple laptops as not being overpriced. Go figure.

      • by beelsebob (529313) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @04:19AM (#25450895)

        The thing is, that Dell laptop really isn't the equivalent of a MacBook. Dell's real equivalent of a really nicely equipped, beautiful machine is the XPS m1330, which is the same price as the MacBook.

          • by je ne sais quoi (987177) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @09:22AM (#25453175)
            I know this is slashdot and RTFA is a problem but here ya go:

            If my math is right, I said that the machines are at PARITY in six of the categories we've reviewed. The MacBook has an ADVANTAGE in thirteen categories, the Dell in nine, the Lenovo and Sony in eight apiece, and the white MacBook in seven.

            He didn't even count the magsafe connection for the power adaptor, so my count would put it at 14. So, instead of just called them the same specs, how about you actually point out why this guy spec comparison is wrong? But no, unsubstantiated assertions are insightful as long as you're bashing Apple, Microsoft or Google here at slashdot.

            And you know something? I've used/administered several Dells -- they're $400 cheaper for a reason, it's called QA/QC and Dells lack it in my experience. Average lifetime of a Dell 3-5 years maybe with better luck on the monitors. Average lifetime of my Apple machines: 5-6 years. This is counting all warrantied replacement parts as included in the lifetime.

    • by Joce640k (829181) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @03:46AM (#25450745) Homepage

      Is it more expensive than a high-end Windows machine? Not really.

      Who buys those high-end Windows machines? Nobody with any sense.

      Does Apple offer $500 laptops? Nope.

      Ergo, Apple is expensive.

      • by beelsebob (529313) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @04:20AM (#25450899)

        Yes, apple is expensive. But the question was -- are apple taxing you for buying their brand. Answer no -- you get the high end kit, and you pay market rate for it, if you don't want high end kit, don't buy a Mac.

    • by Almahtar (991773) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @03:55AM (#25450795) Journal
      I got my macbook pro for 33% off from the refurb site. I saw a macbook air there for 42% off the other day.
  • Design items... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Max Romantschuk (132276) <max@romantschuk.fi> on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:18AM (#25450333) Homepage

    Macs are design items. Some people don't mind paying a higher price for something which appeals to them.

    Price is what you pay, value is what you get. If you subjectively feel that the value of the product matches the price paid then an objective comparison is not significant.

      • Re:Design items... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Max Romantschuk (132276) <max@romantschuk.fi> on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:59AM (#25450531) Homepage

        Many of you? With all due respect there are not a huge number of things that really honestly require a Mac these days. I've done desktop publishing, graphics work, sound recording and design, video editing all on Windows. It works quite well with the right software these days. Granted, if you _have_ to have some particular OS X only software a Mac is the only option. But that's a clear minority these days.

        So no, not that many.

        But I never said that everyone buys Macs for the nice design. I said that an objective price comparison is irrelevant to someone who did. Don't jump to generalizations just because I managed to irritate you when you didn't bother to read my post thoroughly.

            • by Danborg (62420) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @07:04AM (#25451751)
              Actually there *are* unique features to the Mac WoW client, to quote TUAW: "Most gaming companies tend to shy away from the Mac, but Blizzard has always been the exception. And with World of Warcraft, there are actually huge benefits to playing the game on a Mac. A while ago they added builtin iTunes controls (right into the official client), and as of the upcoming patch (now available for players to play around with on a public test), they've actually created an ingame movie recorder-- only for the WoW Mac client. It's a pretty well done feature, too. WoW Insider's Paul Sherrard took the recorder for a test drive, and created what you see above (after a little bit of iMovie fiddling). The options are pretty impressive for an ingame vid capture as well-- you can control whether the UI or cursor is seen or not, and you even get a choice of codecs (including H.264, Pixlet, or Motion JPEG). Very nice. Whoever's working on the Mac team at Blizzard really knows what they're doing, and is definitely giving Mac users the hookup on cool exclusive features." Re: http://www.tuaw.com/2007/07/13/world-of-warcraft-mac-client-adds-builtin-movie-capture/ [tuaw.com]
      • by Jeppe Salvesen (101622) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @04:27AM (#25450923)

        Tell me, what is the marginal utility of that special Mac aura?

        OSX is what userland Linux should be. It's secure enough. And there is a culture of user-centricity amongst the application developers. That's the special Mac aura - to me.

        The keyboards are really good, too. I love that spacing between the keys - the margin of error is built-in, so that you can type faster and still avoid hitting the neighbouring key. Stuff like being able to write appx 10% faster is also the "marginal" utility of a Mac.

        • Re:You've been owned (Score:5, Interesting)

          by torstenvl (769732) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @08:06AM (#25452223)

          I agree.

          The marginal utility of the Mac is the amount of thought that goes into the entire system. Everything from MagSafe and freefall harddrive locking to built-in webcams (which you'll notice PCs quickly copied) to POSIXy goodness and Open Group certification. Different volume settings for different audio pipelines. Self-contained applications, system-wide and per-user settings, etc.

          Add to that its greatness as a development environment and I'm pretty much sold.

          If only OS X (specifically HFS+) would support filesystem holes. Grrrr...

      • by Uberbah (647458) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @06:30AM (#25451545)

        Tell me, what is the marginal utility of that special Mac aura?

        What is the marginal utility of your snob aura?

      • Re:Design items... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by toQDuj (806112) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @06:21AM (#25451483) Homepage Journal

        Colour me surprised when I found out that at the Kyoto University Research Reactor Institute (KURRI - nuclear reactor-based research), the percentage of Macs was around 40-50%!

        At a month-long course on X-Ray and Neutron science in France, 25% of the presenters laptops were macs too.

        I guess we go for the shiny and UNIX.

  • the big diff (Score:4, Insightful)

    by raffe (28595) * on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:19AM (#25450343) Journal

    is the OS. You dont get mac os x on another machine!

    • by sqrt(2) (786011) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:25AM (#25450365) Journal

      And thank goodness for that!

      (Mod me down, it was worth it)

    • Re:the big diff (Score:5, Insightful)

      by iced_773 (857608) <jft_773 AT yahoo DOT com> on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:48AM (#25450481)

      Which is exactly why I'm a PC guy

      Seriously, I'm just going to install and use Linux anyway - I want the best hardware for the lowest price.

    • Re:the big diff (Score:5, Interesting)

      by caitsith01 (606117) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:50AM (#25450489) Homepage Journal

      Interesting. Does Apple offer a refund for OS X to make itself competitive in this regard?

    • Re:the big diff (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rolfwind (528248) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @03:34AM (#25450699)

      There's more than that. What I don't get on other notebooks is:

      1. True multi-touch trackpad (not just scrolling). You can go on ebay and try for a fingerworks trackpad when they are available at ebay but they go for big money and are for desktops (but nice software, too bad company was bought by apple).

      2. Economizing ports. I like a lack of ports, it always irks me when I see something as antiquated as a serial port on my notebook. Don't ask me why, but it's rather like seeing a floppy drive on a notebook.

      3. Stylish elegance. THe unibody construction is really nice. It may be silly, but even the upper end notebooks from competitors seem like hunks of ugly black plastic, and if not, they still get a lot of little things wrong. The little things like their crappy bezels/logos on the back or just the obvious overpacking of ports to fill out a bureacratic checklist. It's like they try to a certain extent, and then promptly give up once they have to invest in something that costs more money than usual.

      Yes, Apple owns me completely, I guess I'm their whore in this direction. But since a notebook is a tool I work with all day (has replace my desktop as well), I might as well get something I like, even if it costs a bit more.

      I honestly don't get the debate. Either buy it or don't. But this issue/whining comes so frequently, I have to wonder if its from people who want to get one but can't afford it, can't talk their boss/SO into it, or just too cheap. I never hear people obsess over Alienware's prices as much. Even the new Macbook, lacking firewire, may be called the new 13 inch Mac Book Pro for all intents and purposes and considering some of the upgrade, the rise in price was probably warranted (more RAM in both offerings by default is called for though).

      Instead, it seems like they are constantly trying to make others feel bad for their purchase. Lighten up, it's just a notebook. I would got with an MSI Wind|EEEpc + cheap desktop if I couldn't afford the Mac right now. Not a big deal.

  • "Mac Tax" (Score:5, Informative)

    by IBBoard (1128019) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:25AM (#25450367) Homepage

    The article uses the phrase "Mac tax," which one commenter points out is a recent Microsoft marketing canard.

    Did that commenter also point out that "Mac tax" is (the first time) both written in quotation marks to imply that it's not their phrase and link to an article that was called "Are Macs More Expensive? Definitely - Just Ask Microsoft!"? The whole point of the article is that the phrase has been coined and they're investigating whether Macs are more expensive for the specs than comparable PCs.

    Not that I'm saying Macs are cheap - I'd rather custom build/upgrade and slap Linux on it - but it's not as if it's an unbalanced comparison article.

  • Fingerprint items (Score:5, Insightful)

    by phantomfive (622387) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:29AM (#25450381) Homepage Journal
    Here is one of the items of comparison:

    Fingerprint Scanner
    The Dell and Sony have one. ADVANTAGE: DELL AND SONY

    It makes me laugh every time: Hmmmm a finger print reader......where would I be able to find fingerprints of someone who has used this laptop that I have just stolen? Sure hope they don't always use gloves when they type.....

    I mean, where can you think of a more cool-but-useless feature? And it is sooo cool.......

    • by Shivetya (243324) <shivetya@@@archonon...com> on Tuesday October 21 2008, @04:42AM (#25450983) Homepage

      Seriously, how many categories did he need? I guess he wanted ads.

      The problem is, that for the target market it is horribly overpriced. This guy had to go out of his way to ignore all the similarly TARGETED machines that you can find in your Sunday circular for $500 to $800. Some of them even have discreet graphics at that price.

      Better yet, everyone knows Dell is always on sale. You can find deals on any laptop maker other than Apple.

      The real Mac tax is found when comparing targeted audience. In other words, the people who would love to have a laptop for light work. This the audience Apple misses completely by pricing themselves out of consideration.

      I could probably find half a dozen laptops that would serve just as well, if not with more features, but they wouldn't look cool.

      (fwiw I own an iMac, 2nd gen iPod, and 2nd gen Touch, and am awaiting the next gen iMac to come out)

  • Groundhog Day: (Score:5, Insightful)

    by cosmocain (1060326) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:34AM (#25450409)
    1) MacBook (Beginning of 2006):
    "AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
    "See, i did the math, it's comparable!"

    2) MacBook (End of 2006):
    "AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
    "See, i did the math, it's comparable!"

    3) MacBook (Mid 2007):
    "AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
    "See, i did the math, it's comparable!"

    4) MacBook (End of 2007):
    "AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
    "See, i did the math, it's comparable!"

    5) MacBook (Beginning of 2008):
    "AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
    "See, i did the math, it's comparable!"

    And now - totally surprising:

    5) MacBook (End of 2008):
    "AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
    "See, i did the math, it's comparable!"

    Who would have thought!
    • by dafing (753481) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:43AM (#25450465) Journal
      In Europe (UK at least) Apple computers are taxed more, I've heard the stories of people flying to america to buy their Macs there, even with the plane tickets it still works out less than buying at a local shop! WTF?

      Im a big Mac guy, but even I felt bad for my friend who wanted to switch, he wanted to rebuy his computer again (long story), his $1500 NZD PC (some media centre thing with tv tuner card etc) was roughly equal in specs to the $3000 NZD iMac he ended up getting, once the warranty on the Mac was brought up to 3 years as well as rebuying Office for Mac. It was painful, and he misses the TV Tuner, ones I've seen that plug in cost HUNDREDS! Ouch.

      Maybe in America, but I think in many parts of the world, Macs are very sadly more expensive than PCs. I compare my Macs to computers a friend has built for himself, and theres a big difference in price. I would still take the Mac for design and OSX, but they are not cheap here in New Zealand :)

  • Sigh... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by caitsith01 (606117) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:37AM (#25450419) Homepage Journal

    There are many, many examples of how the 'reviewer' has simply picked the wrong comparisons. Sony and Lenovo are notoriously expensive. Generic Dells are notoriously crappy. And of course, where the Apple is deficient (e.g. hard disk space or RAM) the reviewer doesn't add the necessary upgrades at Apple's prices to make the price comparison fair, it simply ignores them.

    I can't link to it because of Dell's site, but for about $100 more Dell currently has an XPS 1330 which whips the Macbook in virtually every respect: much better graphics, much more RAM and HDD, significantly faster CPU, bigger battery, better connectivity, and so on. Mysteriously, the reviewer has instead selected a relatively poor quality Dell as a comparison point.

    Some other selections from TFA:

    Those Windows cheapies are simply a different class of computer

    How? This is not explained. Does "different class" mean "much cheaper?

    I looked for ones with 13-inch screens and Intel Core 2 Duo CPUs, and I priced them in build-to-order configurations sold directly by the manufacturers so I could customize them to match the MacBook when possible.

    I understand that the objective is to compare "like-for-like" and see whether Apple is adding a premium, but if an AMD chip (or a different Intel chip) offers comparable or better performance but is not available on a Mac, then how is that not part of the 'cost' of buying Apple? Limiting it to Core 2 Duo seems unneccessary. And why is it legitimate to reconfigure the competition, but not the Mac? Could it be that Apple savagely gouge you for any upgrades?

    I configured the MacBook, white Macbook, and Sony with 160GB drives The Dell and Lenovo come with 25GGB ones. Theyâ(TM)re all 5400rpm models. ADVANTAGE: DELL AND LENOVO

    Why not pay whatever Apple charges for the same capacity? One of the biggest Apple gouges is when you add RAM or storage to their preconfigured systems. Ignoring this is not justified.

    Macs sometimes suffer in comparison to Windows PCs when it comes to the quantity of USB ports, but all these machines seems to provide just two of âem. PARITY

    And yet, there would be hundreds of x86 laptops on the market that provide 4 or more.

    Everybody can output to a VGA display, but the MacBook has the new DisplayPort connector, and you need to buy a $29 adapter to do VGAâ"but on the other hand, you can also buy a $99 dual-link adapter that can drive a 30-inch display. The white MacBook has mini-DVI, and also needs an extra cost adapter to do VGA. The Dell, Lenovo, and Sony have standard VGA connectors. Iâ(TM)ve going to give the ADVANTAGE to the MacBook for its power but also to the Dell, Lenovo, and Sony for their convenience.

    Or you could pick a different Dell, like an XPS series model, and get HDMI, s-video and DVI as standard. In addition, the review does not appear to add in the cost of Apples various dongles and attachments.

    Theyâ(TM)ve all got audio in, audio out, and a microphone; the MacBooks are the only ones with optical in and out, or at least the only ones that tout it. ADVANTAGE: BOTH MACBOOKS

    HDMI equates to "optical out" and is arguably more useful for modern hi-fi equipment. I am relatively ignorant about audio in options.

    Iâ(TM)m going to give the MacBook the ADVANTAGE here, for the aluminum case and near-seamless design

    Again, this is simply a result of picking the wrong competition - again check out (for instance) Dell XPS laptops, which are extremely well built and solid.

    • In fact (Score:5, Informative)

      by caitsith01 (606117) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:43AM (#25450461) Homepage Journal

      To reply to my own post, knocking the 13" Macbook up to the same specs as the Lenovo in terms of RAM, HDD, and video out increases the price to $1,457.00, or $150-200 more than the Lenovo depending on whether we go by the "sale price" or the list price.

      So in summary: yes, there is a "Mac tax" (which incidentally is a phrase which was in use long before MS adopted it).

      • Re:In fact (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Uberbah (647458) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @06:20AM (#25451475)

        So in summary: yes, there is a "Mac tax"

        Only if you're enough a moron to buy additional RAM or HDD space from the OEM as opposed to an online or mail order retailer - as any Mac user over the last 30 years could tell you.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:39AM (#25450431)

    Long story short, the least expensive Windows laptop he found comparable to the $1400 MacBook was an $820 Dell, making the Mac Tax a whole 70% on top of the price-conscious buyer's choice in the Windows world.

    However, he did succeed in finding two similarly overpriced models to the Mac from Sony and Lenovo, demonstrating that bad choices are also available in the PC world, if you look hard enough.

    • by guruevi (827432) <evi.smokingcube@be> on Tuesday October 21 2008, @06:33AM (#25451555) Homepage

      This sounds like the start of a lame joke but: A Dell, a Lenovo (aka IBM Thinkpad) and a Mac fall off a table...

      Either way. I have had Dells and Mac's (and IBM Thinkpads). The only ones still floating around at my house is the Mac and the IBM. The Dell machines just break as soon as they're put up to a little bit of abuse and I won't put up any longer with their support department. Like this time that I got a bundle from work which included a laptop, a docking station, a screen and keyboard/mouse. Something was DOA so I contacted support which is apparently in India, they told me to send it back... oh, I have to pay for packaging and shipping by FedEx or UPS. They then ship it back a week later saying that parts are missing and they can't do anything with it. Call them again and after about an hour or so on the phone, apparently I need to ship EVERYTHING back and STILL pay for shipping because it was bought as a bundle. That's over $100 just to get something replaced? Then it takes them over 3 weeks to get me my stuff back.

      Ever called Apple support? You can call without any support contract and get help for just about anything Mac related (or walk in any Apple store) in about 5-15 minutes. If it's really a big problem and you're friendly, they might even connect you to an engineer that worked on the product. If something breaks like a hard drive they will OVERNIGHT you a package with the new hard drive and schedule to pick up the dead one without any cost to you, you just take off the first mailing stickers and magically a well-formed return sticker appears. The same goes for laptops, they will overnight or same-day you a special package that fits the laptop and if you can convince the FedEx guy to wait a second while you pack it back up, a repaired or new laptop will arrive within 3-5 business days.

  • by GreatBunzinni (642500) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @02:57AM (#25450517)

    In TFA it is stated on page 3 that the MacBook costs 1299$ while the Lenovo is 1264.84$, the Sony is $1194.99 and the Dell is $819. Yet, in order to make the MacBook appear to be not so expensive in comparison, it states that they are all of comparable value and therefore, as you should ignore price differences in the scale of 100$, they all cost the same. I mean, WTF?

    But that isn't all. There are a few more laptop manufacturers that, oddly enough, happen to be the world's leading laptop manufacturers (Acer, HP, Asus, etc) and also, oddly enough, offer similar laptops in the same price range of the Dell laptop. In fact, Sony and Lenovo are known as the inexplicably expensive laptop brands.

    So, having said that, how exactly can anyone claim that the Apple laptops aren't expensive when you realize that their laptops are more expensive than the already expensive windows laptops? You can't.

    P.S.: The current Apple laptops are also PCs. It doesn't make sense to claim that a Windows laptop is a PC while the Apple laptop is something else.

  • by c.r.o.c.o (123083) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @03:19AM (#25450623)

    One reason I dislike current laptops are their (generally) crappy LCD resolutions. Over the past 7-8 years I've only used laptops with 14.1in SXGA+ LCDs, including the T60p I'm typing this from. I actually prefer the 14.1in SXGA+ LCDs, but I know it's a losing battle. A very limited number of T61p were released with them, and I'm pretty sure they'll be the last in history.

    I'm not unreasonable, and I understand that movies look better if they fill the widescreen. Although with all the variations in widescreen ratios, I'm yet to see a movie without any black borders. You can also display two documents side by side, even though 90% of people I've seen only show a single maximized instance of MS Word with a single document open. Widescreens do take less room in cramped spaces, allow for more keyboard space and even numpads, etc. However I use my laptop for typing, and screen height is far more important than width. I'm a minority though, so I'll adapt.

    Now assuming I'd be looking for a replacement laptop tomorrow (hopefully my T60p will last a while), moving to Apple would mean going "down" to a 15.4in WSXGA (loss of 150pixel height) on the Macbook Pros or 13.3in WXGA (loss of 250pixel height and 200pixel width) on the Macbooks. THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS.

    On the other hand I just checked out Lenovo's site. Their T500 laptop is offered with a 15.4in WSXGA or WSGA+ resolution. The WSXGA+ is only a $75 upgrade, and it offers the same height and much more width than my SXGA+. The rest of the specs are very close to the Macbook Pro, but at first glance it's about $200 cheaper.

    Beyond their arguably sleek design, the absolutely only reason any rational person would even consider a Macbook or Macbook Pro is OS X. I used it briefly, and I really liked it. Unfortunately given my laptop use, the OS alone is not incentive enough to put up with the limited and (slightly) more expensive hardware.

  • Battery life (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Andtalath (1074376) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @04:22AM (#25450901)
    The thing which I find annoying with all these analysis is that they never, ever compare battery life, which to me is the singulary most important spec of a highly portable laptop (10-13 inches or so, above that is portable (14-17), below that is netbooks (7-9)).
    The cheapest MacBook/iBook has, from at least 2005 (as long as I've checked out the market) been in the top cathegory for battery life in it's priceclass, and, they don't even lie that much with how long time they can actually be used responsibly.
    Also, they are pretty much noiceless and doesn' generate extreme hot spots like many laptops do, making them more comfortable to use in your lap.
  • by Ash-Fox (726320) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @05:51AM (#25451327) Homepage

    I did my own comparisons, and really, I see the Mac tax.

    I have a HP Pavilion DV6000 [google.co.uk], comes with pretty much everything. I bought it a few months ago for £400 (GBP). A Mac Mini costs £399 (GBP).

    This laptop has dedicated RAM for graphic card (GeForce 8400M GS - runs all my games just fine, with excellent quality [steamcommunity.com]) usage, 2GB RAM, sdcard reader, firewire, A/G/B wireless, DVD burner, HDMI, three USB ports, VGA, modem, ethernet, video out, webcam, microphone...

    I use this machine as my mobile gaming machine (it works great) and work stuff (software development, office work), home stuff (movie editing etc). The only disadvantage with it, is that it each core has 1.66GHz, while on the Mac Mini has 1.83GHz. That said, I couldn't use the Mac Mini for decent gaming, or for the majority of the stuff I use this laptop for without significant performance costs, lack of hardware options etc.

    That's just the Mini, the cheapest laptop from Apple is the MacBook is £719.00 (GBP), which has Intel GMA graphics, no dedicated graphic card RAM, only 1GB RAM.

    Sorry, I'm not convinced Apple systems are on par with PCs for their cost.

  • by Budenny (888916) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @10:26AM (#25454251)

    As usual the article and the commentaries ask and answer completely the wrong question.

    The interesting question is NOT whether, if you take a Mac spec as your starting point, you can duplicate it for less elsewhere from another vendor. The answer is usually, no, not very much, and sometimes it costs more. Which tells us just about nothing about suitability of product or value for money.

    The interesting question is whether, if you are looking for a computer, you can find a better value choice better suited to your needs from the Mac range or from other vendors ranges.

    You almost always can. The reason is, the paucity of price points and specification points in the Mac range. This results in Macs being an overpriced or underfeatured choice for most people most of the time.

    This leads to a simple conclusion. For most people, most of the time, the Mac product is going to be overpriced. For most people, the other vendor product is going to offer better value. Which is quite compatible with the proposition that for any given point in the Mac range, its hard or impossible to duplicate it for much less. This was however never the issue.

    The Mac range is not the starting point for comparisons, any more than the Louis Vuitton range is. How one wishes people would stop pretending that it is.

  • by earlymon (1116185) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @03:29PM (#25459227) Homepage Journal

    I was always convinced of the Mac tax on their laptops.

    Then I owned one. I didn't want it at first. I didn't lust after it.

    Now I am convinced that there is no Mac tax. I happen to know that I'm immune to the idea that I'm a fanboi suffering from post-purchase justification. I just know that once you own one, if you had the Mac tax issue, you lose it. Quickly. Completely. Forever.

    Then your next laptop will be a Mac. And you'll recommend them. And you'll probably try to explain something in a post that might not be easily explained.

    • by nEoN nOoDlE (27594) on Tuesday October 21 2008, @03:29AM (#25450677) Homepage

      I think Apple's thought process is that if they get rid of the firewire from the low end laptops, people who need it are going to upgrade to Macbook Pros. Which probably isn't that far off. If you require firewire for your work and you're accustomed to FCP, then chances are you're not going to get a Win laptop and Hackintosh it, you're just gonna put in the money to get the one with firewire.