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Cell Chip Coming To the PC Via a PCI Express Card
Posted by
timothy
on Thu Oct 02, 2008 06:15 PM
from the buy-one-for-every-prisoner dept.
from the buy-one-for-every-prisoner dept.
arcticstoat writes with an excerpt from Custom PC: "After developing a brand new CPU architecture from the ground-up, you'd expect that Toshiba, Sony and IBM would have more uses for the Cell architecture than the PlayStation 3, and Toshiba has been quick to make use of the architecture's HD video transcoding abilities in its new Qosimo laptops. However, Leadtek is now taking Toshiba's efforts a step further by putting the chip onto a PCI-E card for desktop PCs. The WinFast PxVC1100 is based on Toshiba's SpursEngine SE1000 processor, which is a cut-down version of the Cell chip. The SpursEngine chip features four SPEs (synergistic processing elements) based on 128-bit RISC cores, along with H.264 and MPEG-2 codecs, but it doesn't contain its own CPU as the chip in the PS3 does. The chip is capable of encoding and decoding H.264, MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 video streams in hardware."
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Er... supercomputers? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
The whole point is that this is a way to get Cell power in "Personal Computers", rather than supercomputers or games consoles.
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So we can get "cell power" and then all we have to do is write cell empowered applications !
This is so exciting, I can hardly wait ! Soon I'll be able to index my cactus seeds in no time ! (I've got almost 30)
I mean, gosh !
Re: (Score:3)
This card is supposed to do HD Encoding. Not just decoding.
Show me a current application that uses your GPU to do good H.264 or MPEG2 encoding in realtime and I'll bite.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Yeah, and there's that whole "Roadrunner" thing, fastest supercomputer in the world. And IBM sell Cell bladeservers...
Re:Er... supercomputers? (Score:4, Funny)
meep meep?
Parent
mythtv apps (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
As many have said, this isn't cost-effective for the hobbyist (assuming there is proper Linux support, which is unlikely) unless he's encoding shitloads of video i.e. he as at least 4 HD streams he's encoding. This is more for content providers making dedicated encoding boxes.
Re:mythtv apps (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:mythtv apps (Score:5, Informative)
Most modern CPUs cannot decode 1080p blu-rays in linux. The video card has nothing to do with it, as there is no support in any linux driver for GPU assisted decoding of anything apart from mpeg2, and even that is shoddy. ffmpeg works well with two threads on dual core, but quad cores isn't buying much right now.
Low bitrate 1080p rips on the net are not the same quality nor difficulty.
Yes, a dual/quad core super-fast intel setup can do it (and the mythtv list has a big thread right now about what it takes for full blu-ray rips) but right now those machines are expensive and loud.
This card could be perfect for people making HTPCs who want a low power and QUIET computer to watch on their TV using myth/etc.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Most modern CPUs cannot decode 1080p blu-rays in linux. The video card has nothing to do with it, as there is no support in any linux driver (...) This card could be perfect for people making HTPCs who want a low power and QUIET computer to watch on their TV using myth/etc.
So what made you think Linux would be any better supported on this card? By the way, it looks like UVD2 is coming to Linux with the ATI drivers soon (since they're usually late, before Christmas at least).
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I think linux would be better supported because of the current support of linux for the cell processor.
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I went without a video card at all just to avoid the noise issue, knowing I'm unlikely to get any full bitrate or blu-ray rips or even close.
Now if this thing could decode full bd rips real-time, and was cheaper than a video card, it would be intriguing. Though again, linux drivers would be neccessary. FTA thou
Re:mythtv apps (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, if your video is encoded with the DivX encoder, the PS3 will play it. It's only when the video is encoded by one of the "compatible" codecs do you run into issues. And, it might play them okay.. Sometimes not.
I have a few profiles set up in my various encoding apps, so I always get good DVD (with AC3) Rips for the PS3 and I can always convert downloaded videos/movies if necessary (usually not.)
The PS3 isn't as flexible as a PC for a media player but it's instant-on and it's pretty darned good. I play media over the network via TVersity.
Parent
Re:mythtv apps (Score:4, Insightful)
i was imagining how cool it'd be to have one of these + VIA EPIA/Eden micro-ATX (what's the smallest form factor that supports PCI-E?) for a HTPC/DVR. that is until i read that the card comes with a one-slot cooler. that would suggest that the processor runs pretty hot, and the slot cooler would probably make a good deal of noise.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
I was thinking something along those lines, using it to speed up decodes on Linux. The problem is, when would support come, assuming support is necessary?
There's all sorts of ARM CPUs that can do h.264 (OSD2 is supposed to ship with one, but only for SDTV/EDTV, beagleboard does 720p but I'm not too sure what formats). The problem there is that they don't do HD.
Should this work really well under Linux, I could easily see VIA boards fitting dual PCIE (or seeing this card for a different bus, or using a riser)
I think I can already do that (Score:2, Informative)
Don't video cards do that? or does this thing just sorta add juice to your system?
I WANT THIS TO BE AWESOME but I'm just a bit underwhelmed.
Re:I think I can already do that (Score:4, Informative)
-in linux, no. only mpeg2 decoding
-in any OS, not really. There is a brand new ENCODER for h.264, but reviews show it to be crap and limited
Windows does have full GPU decoding of h.264 with modern nvidia (not sure about ATI, but it is likely), but that's it.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Is the author aware that H.264 is one of two video encoding standards that fall under the umbrella of "MPEG4"? (H.264 is MPEG 4 Part 10, with the other being Part 2, and I can't honestly remember what it's called. DivX is built off of it, but it's otherwise generally considered kinda irrelevant these days.)
Re: (Score:2)
XviD and DivX are the two most popular video codecs used on the internet, both of which are MPEG-4 Part 2 encodings. i would hardly consider it irrelevant. XviD in particular is useful because it provides high-quality video compression under a GNU license and is supported on all platforms. H.264 is a patented codec, so despite there being open source implementations, it's still excluded from certain FOSS products.
the author probably wanted to specifically mention H.264 because it's a very well-known encodin
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Its not meant for playback of a single video like the GFX cards do, or watch a DVD or Blu-ray, its designed for content creation and distribution. In an early demo, the Cell did 48 simultaneous Mpeg2 streams in real-time.
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/playstation/cell-processor-demos-mpeg2-x-48-100853.php [gizmodo.com]
Two things (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Any PCIe card is a 'mac version' just as much as it is a 'PC version' - perhaps you mean will there be drivers or a developer API for the Mac - the good thing is that a lot of Linux geeks will be wanting this (probably good for University research projects), and if there is Linux support then basically you will already have OSX support.
The interesting question is, what are you planning to do with it that you can't already do fast enough with a multicore CPU, GPU or physics type add in card? Or do you just w
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You've never tried to write a Mac OS X driver, have you? If so, you'd know you couldn't be more wrong. OS X uses a totally different different architecture; they are not even close. OS X uses I/O Kit. Not even FreeBSD is close.
Re: (Score:2)
That's probably because iPhones aren't really advanced. I had a 3G touchscreen smartphone (HTC TyTN) about a year and a half before the first gen iPhone even hit the streets.. I have always liked Macs since I was a kid (we had a Mac Classic which I used to play games on, write up my homework on, and I even did a bit of coding on it), but iPods and iPhones don't interest me too much. I doubt you'd be able to do anything useful with a Cell PCIe card unless you are heavily into scientific research, cryptograph
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i couldn't agree with you more. personally, i love my PSP to death. it's the only gaming system i have, and i use it all the time to read e-books, listen to audiobooks, or play PSX games. once you get CFW on it, there's no other handheld out there that can compare as a general portable entertainment device.
Why bother? (Score:5, Insightful)
This spurs engine sounds just like an extra GPU...
Why not just go with CUDA or some other GP-GPU platform and avoid the hassle?
I know nVidia and AMD/ATI are doing H.264 decoding in hardware using their GPUs... I'm sure you can get software for encoders too.
Re:Why bother? (Score:5, Informative)
CUDA is a matrix processor. This is a serial processor. CUDA isn't really applicable to general purpose tasks. This is. CUDA gets its power by running the same function over an array of inputs to generate an array of outputs.
Different beasts.
Parent
But then the question is (Score:3, Insightful)
What does it have over a normal multi-core processor, like say a Core 2 Quad?
The problem I've been seeing with the Cell both in terms of how it performs in the PS3 and the researchers tinkering with it at work (I work for a university) is that it doesn't really seem to have something that it is great at. A lot of the tasks people tout for it are highly parallel tasks, like Folding@Home. Ok, wonderful, except a GeForce crushes it. A GTX 280 using the CUDA client is much faster than a Cell. Ok so, not for tas
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
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Yes, but... (Score:2, Informative)
...can it play Crysis?
Because if not, seeing as modern graphics cards [wikipedia.org] all feature hardware MPEG, I'm kind of underwhelmed by this announcement.
Re:Yes, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Does it run ... ? (Score:4, Interesting)
I RTFA, but I didn't find an answer in it.
Hopefully so, unless they really hate Linux. (Score:3, Informative)
Unless they purposefully fucked the register table to prevent it, it's probably just a matter of finding the correct PCIe offsets to access known registers/segments on the CELL. While it's possible they could "sabotage" it to prevent the first-day-out-of-the-box Linux driver, chips modified this way usually have to go under m
I hope I have room for another card! (Score:3, Funny)
::checks case::
Ooh, awesome! I have one more PCI-E slot left, right next to my PhysX accelerator! Where do I pre-order?
I can see a use for it.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Attempting to integrate Leadtek l33tripZ SE (Now with the crushing power of the "buggy, ill-defined, good enough for consumers" h.246 profile in hardware! Totally Vista compatible(32 bit systems only, when run as administrator during waxing moon)) into a professional workflow? World of pain.
So
50/50. (Score:5, Interesting)
If it has good general purpose support(I'd really prefer that this mean "good documentation" and properlinux support; but I suspect a proprietary sdk would do alright as well) then it could be a killer in certain lower end computing scenarios. Since the cell is produced in nontrivial bulk, and this thing is only about 1/2 the complexity of a full cell(does that mean that this card is "spursengine on the half-cell?) it should be cheap, cheap, cheap compared to FPGA boards or custom ASICs for such purposes as the cell architecture is useful.
I hope the do the right thing, and get rewarded(and I hope so, surely somebody looking to sell computational hardware would see the virtues of making it as useful as possible for as many customers as possible?); but if they don't, I suspect that they'd be lucky to do as well as physX, and will probably do worse.
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Shit man... (Score:3, Funny)
I want to be a synergistic procesing element!
Doesnt everyone?
Only pci-e x1 and 128meg of ram? ati, nv cards hav (Score:3, Insightful)
Only pci-e x1 and 128meg of ram? ati, nv cards have more ram at a lower cost with a pci-e x16 link.
The x1 link will slow this down. HTX is even better then pci-e for a add in cpu.
See also, Mercury Computers (Score:2)
Link to the card. [mc.com]
How Not to Build a Multicore Processor (Score:2, Insightful)
The Cell is a perfect example of how not to design and build a multicore processor. It's a powerful processor but it's a pain in the ass to program. The worst thing that a multicore designer can do is build a processor before the programming model is designed and tested and all the chinks ironed out. But Sony and IBM are not alone. Intel is making the same mistake with Larrabee. AMD is soon to follow suit with its Fusion hybrid. It's enough to make a grown man cry. The truth should be clear to everyone by n
Chip production yield was _that_ poor? (Score:2)
IIRC, the PS3 offers 7 SPEs, so they can increase their yield by letting those with one blown/bad SPE still ship, reserving the full 8-working SPE units to more expensive applications. So the chips in these cards are so bad that they have up to 4 dead SPEs and a dead PPE as well?
I wouldn't think that there'd be enough of a market segment to create a separate, more limited version of this chip just for applications like this. This have got to be their mitigation strategy for incredibly low yield.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
SpursEngine is not a partial good Cell; it's a different chip.
How is this new? (Score:4, Informative)
Mercury had a PCI-e cell expansion card [mc.com] for over a year now.
Unlike the leadtek one, the mercury version has the full version of the cell processor, with 8SPEs. Dont think it comes with any prebuilt codecs though.
Re:yo yo yo (Score:4, Insightful)
sweet, i can finally have my PVR record programs before they actually air!
but seriously though, how much is this card going to cost? is it just for professional video processing or will there be other uses for it as well? i wouldn't mind having one of these things for a PVR/media center, except for the fact that it needs a one-slot cooler, meaning it probably runs hot and noisy.
Parent
Re:yo yo yo (Score:5, Funny)
Lets say the PS3 retails for £300 (it's less than this, but what the hell, this is slashdot, we don't need to be accurate. Or impartial for that matter...let me start again) Lets say the shitty PS3 costs £300, which is far too bloody much, but once you take away the shitty Blu-Ray drive, the shitty Hard drive, shitty controller, shitty case, etc. the price for the shitty fully-fledged CELLs (7 of them, remember) can't be more than £100 and that's a safe overestimation, with added money for the Lube Sony will use to anally violate you with their shitty cocks. This chip has only 4 shitty cores of the shitty CELL and it's not even the full CELL, it's a shitter version of it so I'd say it's a safe bet that it SHOULD cost no more than £50-70, but since the company that makes it is so shitty, they'll probably triple that price. Cunts.
Parent
One-Slot Cooler (Score:3, Informative)
i wouldn't mind having one of these things for a PVR/media center, except for the fact that it needs a one-slot cooler, meaning it probably runs hot and noisy.
Look at the pictures : the cooler looks rather small, and seems to be of the standard type that you find over most low-end GFX cards and some chipsets.
As long as there's sufficient air-flow in your HTPC, you could probably swap if for on of those heat-pipe based monstruosities that you can fit over standard GPU and use passive cooling or low noise big fan. (something like this [sapphiretech.com])
Of course, given the standard shape, you could also put a water cooling block on it.
but seriously though, how much is this card going to cost? is it just for professional video processing or will there be other uses for it as well?
Well, I think this is going to be the tricky par