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Theorizing a Big Apple Push Into Gaming
Posted by
timothy
on Thu May 08, 2008 01:39 PM
from the remember-nanosaur-fondly dept.
from the remember-nanosaur-fondly dept.
Ian Lamont writes "Terrence Russell has outlined an interesting theory about what industry Apple intends to break into next. He points to games. Forget Pippin II, or an iMac gaming rig — he thinks the mobile realm is where Apple will make a big product push. It's not the first bit of speculation about Apple's renewed interest in gaming, but Russell's theory may have more legs, considering Apple's invitation to develop games on the iPhone SDK, its strong mobile product line, and a Apple trademark extension filed three months ago."
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I'm definitely not knowledgeable with Mac, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I'm definitely not knowledgeable with Mac, but. (Score:5, Informative)
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I'm definitely not knowledgeable with Mac, but. (Score:5, Informative)
Most of a specific chunk of code written for a Windows game will (most likely) be relatively portable already (with the possible exception of non-standard types). The bits that need to be rewritten to work on OS X are the same bits that would need to be rewritten to work on Linux. Porting to OS X gains Linux almost nothing.
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Re:I'm definitely not knowledgeable with Mac, but. (Score:5, Informative)
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Wouldn't that be funny if . . . (Score:5, Funny)
Sales of Macs would skyrocket! Plus, DNF might actually run!
Re:Wouldn't that be funny if . . . (Score:5, Funny)
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Every time (Score:3)
"Big Apple" (Score:5, Funny)
Phew, I thought New York was going to get into gaming. Had me worried for a new york minute there.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
That's funny. I thought New York was trying to get out of video games!
link [arstechnica.com]
Remember history (Score:4, Funny)
Ironically (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Um, no. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, there will be mobile games for the iPhone. I expect to see a Bejeweled port in short order. No, the iPhone will not be the next handheld gaming device a la Nintendo DS, Sony PSP, etc. It's capabilities will be similar to Windows Mobile, with fewer games. All development will be done by third parties who Apple will do nothing to encourage and whom Apple will end up screwing over (because they always screw over the developers). i.e. "We've just released the mandatory iPhone update X, which breaks all 3rd-party apps, and we didn't bother to tell developers this would happen, and no, we won't tell you what we changed to make it easy to fix your apps. We hate you."
Re:They've already shown support (Score:4, Informative)
This seems very unlikely given the stated 30% figure for any other commercial application, you figure there's no way a large company would give up more than that percentage nor would Apple try and force that out of someone like EA.
We'll see in June.
Not in the early days at least. I was in the Apple Developer Program and we weren't told shit about new OSX releases. This was back in 1999-2001.
And I was in the program a year or so ago, and am in the iPhone program now (in line waiting for a cert like many others, though I know people are are fully in). OS X developers have been getting new OS seeds for years before official releases. iPhone developers currently get access to install the beta iPhone 2.0 OS along with the development cert.
Again, this must be new. Back in the day we got a list of bugs fixed, but no descriptions of those bugs or what was actually changed. Changes to Carbon were completely undocumented. I had to track down the developers in person and beg them for info.
The iPhone SDK updates have been pretty good about documenting changed classes and attributes, and the docs are pretty good for a new API (along with a lot of very helpful sample applications).
FWIW, Sun was basically the same as Apple in terms of support.
I've also been a Java developer for a long time, and they have had beta releases of new Java versions before the official release. But in those cases it mattered less because companies are a lot slower to upgrade Java VM's than consumers are computers or other devices.
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Re:Um, no. (Score:4, Interesting)
http://www.ea.com/platform_mac.jsp [ea.com]
http://www.feralinteractive.com/ [feralinteractive.com]
http://www.insidemacgames.com/ [insidemacgames.com]
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yay! (Score:5, Funny)
Of course they're heading into games (Score:5, Interesting)
If you want crazy theories about what Apple could do as far as gaming goes... how about, instead of selling Mac Pros with two quad-core Xeons, they start making them with one quad-core Xeon and one Cell. Sure, it would take a mountain of work to make Xcode optimize its compiler to execute code for running on two different architectures simultaneously, especially one as odd as the Cell, but Xcode already generates universal binaries for x86 and PPC at the click of a button, and Apple's got the resources these days to make Xcode optimize as much as possible for the Cell, and make decisions about which code to run on the cell and which to run on the Xeon.
Why would they try a crazy architecture like that? Well, in the markets Mac Pros are aimed at; video editing, rendering, Photoshop, scientific computing- Cells can, in certain circumstances, run circles around the competition. It could grant a speed advantage for certain tasks that Windows PC's would have no hope of matching. Throw in a quad Xeon, a Cell, and finish up making the OS offload some processing to the graphics card, and you've got a computer with three extremely different and very fast processors to throw at different sorts of problems.
But wait, didn't I say something about games? Well, if you're selling a computer with a Cell in it already, along with a graphics card, (how long could it be before Apple starts offering Blu-ray on Mac Pros...), could they license PS3 compatibility from Sony? They wouldn't even have to license it, Sony could sell a PS3 compatibility client for Mac Pros. Before you say "Sony would never do that," remember that Sony loses money on each PS3- they're in this for market dominance, not hardware profits.
Anyway, that's my crazy conspiracy theory regarding Apple gaming, to go with the "already happened so it's not even news" theory regarding iPhone gaming above.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Apple would be better off investing in GPGPU technology if they do decide to get
Can't see it happening (Score:3)
While I'm sure some games will be cross-platform, you try selling the idea of focussing your coding efforts on 10% of the total market to your CEO.
Remember too; games written for DirectX just happen to port real easy to the XBox too - that is real margin savings right there for most game developers.
Oh, and don't even compare OpenGL to DirectX because DirectX does way more than just graphics; it's an entire API set for every element of gaming.
Re:Can't see it happening (Score:4, Informative)
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Unlikely (Score:5, Insightful)
That'll work.. COMPLETELY (Score:5, Funny)
Xbox 360: And I'm an Xbox 360
iConsole: Hey Xbox 360, what's wrong?
Xbox 360: Oh the red ring of death, looks like I have to be replaced
iConsole: That's too bad Xbox 360, you know the iConsole doesn't have that problem
Xbox 360: Yeah, you also don't have any games, plus you cost more than the PS3
iConsole: That may be so, but people appreciate a console that just works, plus no red ring of death
Xbox 360: Yes well despite that we still managed to beat the PS3. I'd like to know what your plan is?
iConsole: Well, while you're off getting replaced people can do fun things like make photobooks and watch movies from itunes
Xbox 360: Fair enough I suppose. I think I'll go play Wii on my week off.
Re:iPippin? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:iPippin? (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:iPippin? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Because they have an already successful base (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyone who saw the demo of Monkeyball running on the iPhone from the launch of the SDK, is crazy to think that a whole lot of cool games are not forthcoming.
Furthermore, gaming on the iPhone has the same kind of hook that Wii gaming does - it's going to be kind of unique. Exactly because there's really nothing like a D-Pad on the system games are going to have to figure out what games work best with controls using multi-touch and the accelerometers. Being unqiue is also helpful in that games for the syste,m will seem different than what people are used to, even from the DS which already has a touchscreen.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Relax, not a DS replacement (Score:3, Interesting)
Indeed (though I don't think the DS has the accelerometers). You are however I would point out saying that it's just like the DS, and the PS3/Wii - except it's like both at once since it combines the two things. Is that not somewhat different and new?
You can relax though, just because the iPhone may be popular for gaming does not mean it will replace the DS.
Now can you admit there is potential?
Re:iPippin? (Score:5, Insightful)
While to me an annoyance, this standardization might actually work in Apple's favor when trying to woo game makers, as it could act to simplify development.
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Re:iPippin? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because John Carmack is one of the rare game developers who is wealthy enough due to his previous and ongoing successes (and being first and best into a massively successful niche...the first-person shooter) to own and run his own company which means that he calls all of the shots. Obviously Mr. Carmack enjoys proving the technical superiority of his code and games by running them on many platforms, even if those platforms don't earn a lot of extra revenue, but most game developers don't have these luxuries.
As for Adobe, Microsoft, and backwards compatibility, there are always trade-offs to be made with regard to supporting existing customers and ditching the old in favor of the new. These include not just technical issues, but money issues too. It is easy to Monday morning quarterback previous corporate decisions when one has the benefit of hindsight, but for those of us who are not prescient we make the best choices (or what we believe are the best choices) we can with the information that we have in the time available.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
...it was because they were pissed at Microsoft and hated DirectX.
I realize this comment was more or less off the cuff - but to say that THE strategic decision to use one platform over another was because they were 'pissed' at Microsoft is absurd. How do you account for the fact that all of their software is developed first for Microsoft based OS and not for Apple OS?
So they started developing on OpenGL and as a result have HUGE market!!!
Secondly, you state that the reason they have a huge market is because they chose OpenGL. I am willing to bet that the majority of their user base had no information as to whether their games were develope
iPeregrin? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:iPippin? (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, that may just be an extraordinary coincidence.
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Re:iPippin? (Score:5, Insightful)
Just anecdotal evidence, but I certainly see more than 4/100 laptops being Apple laptops when I'm out and about. And I believe that laptops are a significant number of sales for computers today.
And as Douglas Adams said:
"The Macintosh may only have 10% of the market, but it is clearly the top 10%." (Douglas Adams)"
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Re:iPippin? (Score:4, Insightful)
The PC serious gamer market is not big enough for Apple to attack. The desktop PC market is reaching a plateau. Apple is growing far faster than the industry overall, with consistent ~35% growth while the PC market chugs along at 4% on average.
Apple's percentage of the worldwide market for PCs and x86 servers (which is the numbers IDC and Gartner throw around) include lots of markets Apple does not even compete in. Those numbers are designed to marginalize anyone who does not sell x86, Windows-based PCs.
For the first time in decades, Apple is revealing how absurd those figures are. The reason everyone sees Apple logos on computers in every cafe, concert, conference, and campus is that Apple now has a large chunk of the consumer market, and is working its way into corporations because of that.
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Re:iPippin? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The OP was comparing MS' license sales to Apple's Mac sales, which is a false comparison. MS makes all its money from license fees. Apple produces software in order to add value to its hardware sales. Apple brings in half MS' revenue from sales to 5% of the PC market. Certainly, comparing unit sales of their respective OS licenses is not useful.
Ap
Re:iPippin? (Score:5, Insightful)
Which computer company has the strongest 1st quarter PC sales? you know the post Christmas, not yet tax refund season when people are swimming in Christmas debt?
Apple computer, they are usually within 1 million units or so of their 4th quarter (the strongest quarter for any PC maker) numbers in the 1st quarter... what does that spell to me or to you or to anyone else?
There are people who because they couldn't get an apple computer for Christmas tucked that money away and bought it in the 1st quarter. There are enough of these people who couldn't get it in Christmas, that the 1st quarter sales for apple are insanely high.
So what if anything does the I pod having 75% of the mp3 player market have anything to do with the massive massive popular demand for new apple products since Steve Jobs took back control of apple?
basically, nothing. if the apple computers weren't so popular they'd have abysmal 1st quarters just like everyone else in the PC sector. But they Don't.
Keep in mind that a significant percentage of 'total' annual computer sales are purchased by businesses, almost none of which buy apple, because they're looking for the most stripped down and cheapest PCs they can deploy for their companies employees. Apple has the strongest consumer market out there as demonstrated by how many apple purchasers buy in the 1st quarter because they simply couldn't buy what they wanted in the 4th quarter.
Doing good when all your competitors are doing bad is a strong sign of having a good consumer brand. Ipods definitely affect apples bottom line though, and they definitely saw the company through some lean years, but they have nothing to do with apple's 1st quarter PC sales.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Laserdisc was a Phillips and MCA format. Sony was not involved in its development.
Also, Sony may have failed with Betamax, but they succeeded wildly with 3.5 inch floppies and their Walkman line of cassette players.
Both sides of the HD-DVD/Bluray war spent exorbitant amounts of money on promoting their format. The truth is that Bluray was the superior format and was always going to win. HD-DVD had a minor price advant
Doesn't get much more mainstream than Spore (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree there's no way they are going to have a platform for game development for all platforms. Whay would they? Apple wants to sell Apple platforms.
But Apple is pushing in a very big way for mainstream names to come to the platform. We've already seen demos from Nintendo and from EA, in particular a Spore demonstration. Now those were proof of concepts but it's pretty obvious both parties are interested in extending those relationships into real working games.
Games on the iPhone will be different due to how control schemes have to be altered. But we'll see names from many big players, and games from big franchises.
This may strike people as another nGague, but this time Apple is still focused on the core reasons for owning a device - and also making is useful for gaming, which is I think the right mix for a portable device that is not only a game system. I think it will be more successful than other non-gaming mobile platforms, because it has better support for graphics and control and a really good display for gaming.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Graphics Cards (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Graphics Cards (Score:5, Insightful)
The lowest-end iMac comes with a Radeon HD 2400XT. The high-end iMac has a GeForce 8800. The MacBook Pros have Geforce 8600/8800s. You can get a geforce 8800 on a Mac Pro.
Mac Minis and Macbooks aren't targeted in any way toward anyone who's interested in gaming.
Unless you're uber-l337, modern Macs are just fine in the graphics department.
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Re:Graphics Cards (Score:5, Insightful)
I disagree. They are both targeted at the mainstream PC gaming crowd. You know, the ones who have made the Sims 2 the best selling game for 2007. Mainstream game developers target midrange systems from two years ago. Macs fit right in. It is a pretty similar casual gaming market as the Wii.
Mac minis and Macbooks aren't targeted at the niche, extreme gaming market where people need high end graphics cards costing significant cash. The problem is one of perception, because so many geeks and people on Slashdot are in this category, they assume it is the mainstream market and don't bother to actually see what is selling.
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Re:Graphics Cards (Score:5, Insightful)
There's something terribly wrong with your computer. I could crawl along in warcraft with my old Geforce2 on an AthlonXP. Very, very slow, and very low quality, but it could run. WoW ran fine on my powerbook 1.25ghz g4.
What's the worst GPU that comes with a quadcore? The ATI 2600? With quadcore, 2gb ram (I don't think you can get mac pro with less?), and a HD2600, you should be fine. Probably not max graphics nor max resolution, and I would guess you would dip into the 20s of fps at times if you're pushing your graphical settings, but very playable.
If you paid the approximately $100 extra bucks to get a Geforce 8800, you should be rolling along at just about any resolution and maxed out graphics.
Apple offers plenty of good CPUs.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I'm having no troubles running WoW on my 2.16GHz MacBook Pro with only 2GB of RAM. It even works great when I use my 24" wide-screen external monitor at it's native resolution.
The only time I heard people complain about the performance of WoW, was when they didn't realize that WoW runs natively on the Mac and were running it within Parallels....
Re:Games? (Score:4, Informative)
It was a packaged as a high end (well, higher priced) game console to compete against other failed attempts to provide something more than a game console and less than a computer, largely aimed at accessing the Internet.
The failure of the Pippin was no more Apple's fault than the failure of the WinCE-based Gametrac was Microsoft's fault.
In addition, the other circumstances of 1995 and 2008 are a bit different too. For example, we now have fairly common WiFi rather than only dialup, so you can download games rapidly. Apple has also changed from a weak PC ghost to a consumer electronics powerhouse with its own retail outlets.
Interestingly, Apple's iPod Touch/iPhone compare pretty well against the Nintendo DS and Sony PSP as a gaming platform:
iPhone 2.0 SDK: Video Games to Rival Nintendo DS, Sony PSP [roughlydrafted.com]
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