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Buckyballs Can Store Concentrated Hydrogen
Posted by
Soulskill
on Fri Mar 21, 2008 07:18 AM
from the brought-to-you-by-the-letter-H dept.
from the brought-to-you-by-the-letter-H dept.
Pickens brings news that researchers from Rice University have discovered that it's possible to store hydrogen inside buckyballs. Hydrogen can be an excellent power source, but it is notoriously difficult to store. The buckyballs can contain up to 8% of their weight in hydrogen, and they are strong enough to hold it at a density that rivals the center of Jupiter.
"Using a computer model, Yakobson's research team has tracked the strength of each atomic bond in a buckyball and simulated what happened to the bonds as more hydrogen atoms were packed inside. Yakobson said the model promises to be particularly useful because it is scalable, that is it can calculate exactly how much hydrogen a buckyball of any given size can hold, and it can also tell scientists how overstuffed buckyballs burst open and release their cargo."
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A point worth making- (Score:5, Funny)
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However, it is probably easier to stuff buckyballs with hydrogen than trying to cut off pieces of Jupiter.
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So what you're saying is that you don't understand the difference between density and volume.
Not true! They will be VERY convenient for a bit. (Score:4, Interesting)
Back of envelope math:
One earth mass will form a singularity at around 10 CC (or so I've heard)
Jupiter's core is about 10 earth masses (or so I've heard)
Ergo one Jupiter core will form a singularity at about 100 CC.
A small briefcase will hold 100 CC plus a little extra.
Only one questions remains...how will we get the core of Jupiter to LOOK like the report I was supposed to read last night?
Parent
Re:Not true! They will be VERY convenient for a bi (Score:5, Interesting)
If this is practical and it's energy potential can be tapped, we'll have at our fingertips, an unlimited power source that won't kill you with radiation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen [wikipedia.org]
Parent
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Even pulling it from the core doesn't really help us. What would we use to oxidse it once we have burned ALL the Oxygen?
Can you go into more detail on what you are suggesting?
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Re:Not true! They will be VERY convenient for a bi (Score:5, Informative)
Wake up world. Hydrogen isn't a source of energy any more than capacitors are. It's a way to store energy.
Parent
Re:Not true! They will be VERY convenient for a bi (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Superconductivity: Metallic hydrogen is a superconductor. Not sure how that would work conducting current through the shells, though. While just being a superconductor doesn't give you energy, it makes it easier to transmit energy.
2) Fusion is all about the combination of the density of your targets and energy of your collisions. This is some impressive hydrogen density being discussed.
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Re:A point worth making- (Score:5, Funny)
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Exotic pressures (Score:5, Interesting)
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Hmmm. (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, if these are being burst open, then it means that these have to be built AND loaded each time, and then disposed. So now, we are going to either break apart water (cool, but inefficient), or strip H from fossil fuel (efficient, but bad news for the CO2). Then we are going to build bucky balls, store the hydrogen in it (at 8% volume), sell you the buck ball, your car will magically break the balls (most likely pressure or heat), this will power either an ICE (very low efficiency) or a fuel cell/electric motor (high efficiency, but high cost due to fuel cell).
Of course, we could just take the electricity and charge a battery and then run an electic motor, all at more than double (or even triple) the efficiency and probably half to one third the costs.
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I am in know way saying that this is a perfect solution, but a carrying method for using hydrogen as a fuel is a better long term alternative for us then batteries storing electrial energy.
The fundamental problem with batteries is that sooner or later the chemical process that you are taking advantage of breaks down and you are left with a battery that no longer functions. As most batteries, actually all the ones I am aware of, are made with particularly noxious chemical compounds now you have the problem
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The GP didn't say 8% of its own *weight*, they said *volume*. And the Buckyballs store it at 8% of it's normal volume, hence "concentrated", not expanded as you seem to be implying.
8% weight is a bad way to put it (Score:2)
Considering Fullerine is C-60 and therefore weighs 720p (ha! protons) and hydrogen atoms weigh exactly 2, this means that they can hold ~30 hydrogen atoms in it?
Oddly, I think the issue would be balancing the containment energy of the buckyball versus the energy burning the hydrogen released. There *might* be a sweet spot in the number of hydrogen stable inside versus the tickle required to make the ball release them, for this to make sense.
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One.
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Re:8% weight is a bad way to put it (Score:4, Funny)
Store the hydrogen at atmospheric pressure in a large, oblong balloon-like vessel, and strap your vehicle underneath it. You not only have a fuel source, but you have buoyancy as well and can soar above the traffic. We'd finally have those flying cars they've been promising us.
Oh, the humanity!
Parent
That's nice and all... (Score:5, Insightful)
...but each burst buckyball is 60 carbon atoms floating around in your fuel. Aren't you right back to "hydrocarbons" if you burn this fuel, and won't the carbon poison fuel cell membranes? It's a cool trick _iff_ you can strip the carbon out efficiently before the hydrogen is used.
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No prob. The issue here is finding an (energy-)efficient / easy way to make the buckyballs store and release hydrogen. But once the hydrogen is released, I can't imagine it would be hard to separate 2-atom hydrogen molecules from 60-atom buckyball molecules. Or find a way to do so.
Some hints: at room temperature, buckyball molecules may behave as solid or liquid-like material, or be dissolved in other liquids, while hydrogen is a thin gas. And buckyball molecules come in different sizes (number of C-at
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If the Carbon was extracted from the air to create the buckyballs then there is no problem with burning them...if they were extracted from oil we have an issue regardless.
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So All We Really Need... (Score:5, Funny)
Of course, we still need to figure out how to get the soft gooey hydrogen inside the chocolatey pocket of the buckyball, especially at "center of jupiter" pressures. Maybe the folks at Cadbury might reveal their secret. We'll also need to figure out how to get the hydrogen out once we're ready to use it.
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No he's not. He [wikipedia.org] is in prison though ;)
Clearly I'm missing something (Score:5, Insightful)
Once you crack those buckeyballs open to get the H out, the C has to go somewhere, right?
What am I missing, here?
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It is only the addition of EXTRA CO2 that is bad. If we cracked the CO2 already in the air to make the fulerenes and then burned them it wouldn't add anything to the atmosphere at all.
8%? Why, that's more than half as good as octane! (Score:3, Insightful)
Pumping Gas (Score:2, Funny)
Read the Warning... (Score:5, Funny)
Caution: Hydrogen Filled Buckyball may suddenly accelerate to dangerous speeds.
Hydrogen Filled Buckyball contains a liquid core, which, if exposed due to rupture, should not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Do not use Hydrogen Filled Buckyball on concrete.
Discontinue use of Hydrogen Filled Buckyball if any of the following occurs: Itching, Vertigo, Dizziness, Tingling in extremities, Loss of balance or coordination, Slurred speech, Temporary Blindness, Profuse sweating, Heart Palpitations.
If Hydrogen Filled Buckyball begins to smoke, get away immediately. Seek shelter and cover head.
Hydrogen Filled Buckyball may stick to certain types of skin.
When not in use, Hydrogen Filled Buckyball should be returned to its special container and kept under refrigeration... Failure to do so relieves the makers of Hydrogen Filled Buckyball, Wacky Products Incorporated, and its parent company Global Chemical Unlimited, of any and all liability.
If Hydrogen Filled Buckyball should become soiled, wipe gently with a soft cloth moistened with sulfuric acid.
Ingredients of Hydrogen Filled Buckyball include an unknown glowing substance which fell to Earth, presumably from outer space.
Hydrogen Filled Buckyball has been shipped to our troops in Saudi Arabia and is also being dropped by our warplanes on Iraq.
Do not taunt Hydrogen Filled Buckyball.
Hydrogen Filled Buckyball comes with a lifetime guarantee.
Hydrogen Filled Buckyball. ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!
That's Nice (Score:3, Interesting)
The rest of the press release (Score:4, Funny)
"That's correct. We're very pleased with these results."
"And to release the hydrogen to be able to use it, you just crack open the buckyballs, right?"
"I beg your pardon? No, no, it's bound extremely tightly to the carbon matrix. That's what we've developed, a way to bind hydrogen."
"But to actually use the hydrogen, professor, you have to get it back out. How do you get it out of the buckyballs?"
"Ah, well, that's something that we'll address in year 4 of the grant."
"Which is...?"
"2011."
Aluminum can store hydrogen too (Score:2)
Moisture in the atmosphere dissociates at the molten metal surface, offering a concentration of atomic hydrogen capable of diffusing into the melt. The barrier oxide of aluminum
Don't you mean "could" store hydrogen? (Score:5, Informative)
What a difference one word can make in a summary. News flash, "Miss Universe can have sex with Slashdot users! According to simulations conducted with fold-out pictures in Randy's basement..um...research center"
The simulation work is pretty cool, the headline and summary can and does mislead the reader.
Look, I don't wish to be rude... (Score:2)
There's me over here in "The Old World" looking at the article thinking "Buckyballs? What are they then? Some brand of American breakfast cereal or cured meat product being a spherical version of beef jerky? How can processed foodstuffs be used as containers for hydrogen? An
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And is it really that hard to look it up in Google? I'm pretty sure you've got Internet access, or else your ability to post here is a really neat trick.
Superconductor encasement? (Score:2)
How about fusion instead of fuel cells... (Score:4, Interesting)
I know one technique has been laser fusion. Target several lasers at one point and they reinforce each other. Then drop in a tiny sphere of fusion fuel surrounded by glass of plastic and the lasers cause the sphere to exploded both outward and in which increases the pressure enough to cause fusion.
This concept has to be more efficient with a VERY high pressure fuel. So we give our packed buckyballs a charge and electromagnetically shoot them into the center of the lasers and POOF you have fusion..
Just a thought, any comments?
H, a power source (Score:3, Interesting)
Hydrogen is more of a battery than a fuel and it is ALWAYS by DEFINITION going to have negative ER/EI. Why? Because the energy required to pull hydrogen out of water or methane or petroleum is going to be greater than the energy you get from burning the hydrogen. What the "hydrogen economy" seeks to do is to protect the sunken cost of the suburbs, and the sunken costs of the automotive infrastructure, both of which are joined at the hip and are completely unsustainable. It's a fools errand and will fail. There is also the not inconsiderable energy that goes into making the bucky balls, etc.
Face it: gigs up. Game over. Prepare to slowly powerdown. [google.ca]
RS
Here's How They Work (Informative!) (Score:5, Informative)
You then reuse the Buckyballs by flowing hydrogen gas over them when they're empty. They're 100% reusable storage, not tiny gas tanks. Someone mod this up so that the dozens of "oh nos, Buckyballs hurt teh environments" posts go away.
Re:Here's How They Work (Informative!) (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Leaks (Score:3, Interesting)
What is the half life of the hydrogen storage in this system?
So, if the buckyball left the factory last month, how much H2 content will it still have? Once it decays down to atmospheric temperature, it does me no practical good.
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