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Brand Names Take On Generics In PSU Showdown
Posted by
timothy
on Fri Dec 19, 2008 01:08 AM
from the in-lieu-of-flowers dept.
from the in-lieu-of-flowers dept.
The Raindog writes "The power supply is perhaps the most overlooked element of a modern PC, and yet it's the one component that can irreparably damage the rest of a system. The market is littered with generic PSUs that are often much cheaper than name-brand alternatives, but can you trust them? The Tech Report aims to find out in its latest power supply round-up, which compares the performance, efficiency, and noise levels of a collection of reputable PSUs with some budget, no-name competition. As it turns out, any money you save on a generic PSU purchase will likely cost you more in the long run."
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Also check your UPS (Score:5, Informative)
And before you think that all your PSUs are failing because you bought them on the cheap, you should also check your UPS. I had 13 PSUs die at Suso and thought it was just horrible luck with power supplies, until I realized that the 5 year old UPS that those servers were on was having issues. Since I replaced it, haven't had any problems since. *knock* *knock*
Re:Also check your UPS (Score:5, Insightful)
Plug in a Kill-A-Watt. $24.99 on Amazon. [amazon.com] It'll tell you your line voltage (with or without load), power consumption, and energy usage for the duration it's plugged in. If nothing else, you can figure out where your electricity is going, how much energy your computer(s) is/are using, and how well your UPS is living up to its promises (unplug it and watch its performance).
I don't work for them or anything, it's just a good way to see what your UPS is up to and learn a little about your household energy usage.
Of course, if your problem really is your PSU rather than your UPS, all this unit does is narrow down the problem rather than solve it... Still, I consider it worth my $25.
Parent
Re:Also check your UPS (Score:4, Interesting)
It will even transfer the measurements to a SD card. It comes with a English text. manual. Continental Europe socket.
Voltcraft ENERGY LOGGER 3500 [conrad.nl]
If you search for this stuff in amazon.de you will find one that claims to have ranked 2nd in a German magazine testing of energy measuring devices. This is the new version of the one who got first.
I have no relation to this shop, or manufacturer, I just love the gadget.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
ENERGY LOGGER 3500 [conrad.nl]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It looks like most UPSes make systems *less* reliable on balance. How frequent is a power failure compared to a UPS failure?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Dual power supplies are your friend. 1 plug goes to the UPS, the other to an independent UPS or the wall. That said, UPS failures are rare if you perform regular maintenance (AKA replace batteries etc BEFORE they fail on you). I suppose it depends a lot on the individual area, but in an are alike mine where severe thunderstorms are common, power outages happen a couple times a year minimum, vs UPS failure that are very rare. Not to mention, you get what you pay for. Office Supply store brand UPS are not g
Re:Also check your UPS (Score:5, Funny)
One of the more ironic examples:
The truck delivering a new UPS unit to a Danish ISP accidentally hit the electric installation on the street outside the server center and cut off the power supply to the server center.
Of course, the old UPS was disconnected at that time to make room for the new unit.
Parent
In other news... (Score:2)
Buying cheap crap that's pumping out power to sensitive electronics can damage the things it's connected to can make things go horribly wrong!
In other news, your computer is not a good thing to use as a coffee table, puppies should not be left unsupervised near cabling, and you should not leave your cell phone in your pocket while washing your clothing.
Is this surprising anyone?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:In other news... (Score:5, Informative)
1) Voltage stabilizing in case the power coming to the PSU is not very good
2) Quieter fans
3) Output voltage/watts and efficiency stay within reason at higher load
4) Some generic heat up quite a bit.
In my opinion, get a decent brand just so you don't end up with a cheap one made from defective (or not within technical specs) capacitors/parts that's going to die on you.
Parent
Another important thing (Score:2)
Is better capacitors. Good PSUs use higher quality ones, and often ones with a higher thermal rating. This is important since electrolytic capacitors degrade over time. If you have crappy ones, they can degrade faster. At some point, their performance drops to the point where the PSU doesn't work right or at all. Good caps are well worthwhile in a power system.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The main things you'll see in a high end PSU:
1) Voltage stabilizing in case the power coming to the PSU is not very good
2) Quieter fans
3) Output voltage/watts and efficiency stay within reason at higher load
4) Some generic heat up quite a bit.
Don't forget power factor correction (PFC). Especially in a datacenter.
Re: (Score:2)
Electrolytic capacitors are one obvious place cost can be cut.
There are a couple of topologies [st.com] that are applicable. Most computer powersuuplies are (I think) single-switch forward converters. The topologies with more switches provide better performance, but more switches means more expensive transistors.
Higher frequency switching generally provides more stable output, but requires "faster" transistors and transistor drivers, which again, are more expensive than "slower" ones.
Re:In other news... (Score:5, Informative)
Here's a partial list:
I've seen companies use components rated at or just below their stated current rating in order to save money (using 8 amp transistors in a 10 amp supply, for example). They'll often work right out of the box, but, since there's no margin built in they will run hot and eventually fail. As to component quality, take it from someone who designs and manufactures precision instrumentation, I can tell you that there can be an enormous difference in quality from one manufacturer to another. "considering all the parts are mass manufactured, anyway" is not a valid argument.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Funny.
I've been "doing" computers since the early 90s. I've never had much problem with power supplies. And I do mean *never*.
I took an ancient, generic 286 computer, and upgraded it through 386SX, 486 DX/2, Cx 6x86, and AMD Athlon motherboards before finally switching to ATX. It was a cheezy, god-only-knows-who-made it power supply that came from a 'not-quite-aluminum-foil' AT case.
And I've done plenty of computers since. I've *always* bought the cheapest, craptastic cases and power supplies, and generally
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The thing is my above observation means absolutely nothing as the sample is far to small to be of any statistical significance. I expect the same is true for your experience with PSUs. If someone has done testing on a reasonable scale, in monitored condition then it would be of real use to peopl
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Lots of problems with this statement:
What does HP use??? (Score:2, Interesting)
I have owned several HP/Compaq machines and NEVER have lost a PSU. And all of the ones I have built myself with parts (Antec) have had a PSU fail multiple times...
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I have had two PSUs fail on me. One was in an expensive Dell workstation and it exploded overnight, leaving a very interesting smell. The other was an Antec provided with a case, and it just stopped working for no reason. I didn't think PSUs could suck so badly, but I've learned my lesson.
Re:What does HP use??? (Score:5, Interesting)
We've had the opposite experience of HP power supplies, we just had to replace 70 HP supplies. When machines started failing in the field, I found that there was massive amounts of ripple on the 12v and 5v lines. When I disassembled the PSU it wasn't hard to tell why - bulging and leaking capacitors.
Parent
I've gotta agree. (Score:5, Funny)
These days, you can't really be sure (Score:3, Interesting)
...As it turns out, any money you save on a generic PSU purchase will likely cost you more in the long run..."
To such statements, I say "Ohh puhleeze!" I use generic power supplies for all my PCs, which I never switch off by the way. Apart from increased noise after about 3 years of constant humming, I have no complaints for a product that costs me about 18 dollars.
I heard Google uses the same stuff too.
Re: (Score:2)
Your experience is clearly different to mine, since I have replaced many generic power supplies that had failed. Some of those failed power supplies also took out the motherboards they were attached to.
Re:These days, you can't really be sure (Score:4, Insightful)
Google may use cheap shit, but they can do so because their reliability comes in the form of redundancy. When you have a lot of systems, you can set them up so that no one failure has any real impact on your service. It's like a RAID-5 array. The disks themselves may not be that reliable but the overall array is because if one fails, you lose nothing you just replace it. Likewise a RAID-6 is more reliable since two can fail, and so on.
However, people at home don't have that luxury. I have one main computer. If it fails, I'm SOL until I get replacement parts. If a bad PSU takes out other components, I'm more screwed. So I have to go through reliability of the components themselves, get better components so they fail less often.
Parent
No surprise at all (Score:3, Informative)
There aren't very many factories that actually make PSUs. You'll find that a great many PSUs share designs. So you can have cheapies that look like brand name PSUs. Ok so what's the money difference? Parts quality. The company making generics says "Ya give me the cheapest caps, fan controls, etc. I need lowest cost no matter what." The good brands say "Give us higher temperature parts, better quality, etc." Just because they look the same, doesn't mean they are built ot the same standard.
The difference between good and crap in electronics can often be as simple as the parts used. However, good parts cost more money so you are going to pay more for the finished product.
Personally, I'm a Corsair fanboy. They seem to spec really high grade electronics in to their powersupplies and those things do a great job.
Check for UL approval (Score:5, Informative)
They should have checked each power supply for a UL marking, and an entry in the UL Certification Database. [ul.com] Things seem to be getting better, though; the power supplies tested did not blow up or catch fire at full load. That's a big improvement from a few years ago.
The basic UL requirements are 1) no overload problems at full load, 2) no explosion or fire under output overload/short conditions, and 3) no single component failure can cause a fire (i.e. there should be a fuse of some kind in there.) It's permitted for an overloaded unit to fail and never work again; that's not a safety issue. Some no-name power supplies had real problems meeting those basic conditions.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I can't tell, is that one in with all the other fancy logos on the side of This [jonnyguru.com] Allied branded Deer PSU that exploded when jonnyguru tested it?
No, it isn't UL approved (Score:3, Informative)
Though not in EU, of course (Score:4, Interesting)
I think most problems would be with older equipment made in the days when both the US and the EU countries were trying to make inroads in the Chinese suppliers. For a time the certification bodies seemed to go a little crazy and let the Chinese get away with murder because they all wanted to be the primary Chinese certification body. One of the best incidents I remember was an auditor going around a Chinese plant with ISO 9002 certification. All the documentation was there, all the procedures written up. In English. And no-one in the entire factory spoke English. I doubt this is the case with electricals any more.
Parent
Overlooked (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Judging by the number of online reviews and by the 560 (!) power supplies available at Newegg,
They just overlooked those.
If you have any interest (Score:5, Interesting)
Spotting a winner. (Score:3, Insightful)
"We've narrowed our focus on PSUs in the 350-500W range, which should be enough power for most budget and mid-range systems."
This isn't quite true. The more important question is the amps on the +12V Rails? Even better if yours has a monorail design were all the power-hungry parts can get what they need. Also sustained rating is important. Not peak. And last even the better brands can be/go bad. My PC Power & Cooling 750 silencer was recieved DOA. It happens even to the best...much like hard drives.
Check for country of origin (Score:4, Interesting)
Wow. What do you people do to your PSUs ? (Score:3)
After ~20 years in the industry, through thousands (probably tens of thousands) of PCs - everything from no-name dsektops to high-end IBM blade servers, I think I've witnessed (or received direct reports of) 3 or 4 PSU failures ever.
Heck, if someone asked me to rank the components most likely to fail in a computer, the PSU would probably be sitting just above screw holes and mounting posts.
WTF are you people doing to your computers ? Is the power supply in Australia really that much better than the rest of the world ?
Re: (Score:3)
It probably depends on the quality of your powergrid, too.
I've heard the american grid, on average, delivers much more fragile and "dirty" electrons than, for example, the european grid.
I guess it makes a difference whether your PSU has to deal with spikes and brownouts on a daily/weekly basis or whether it's just humming along on nominal line voltage.
Re:Antec is the worst (Score:4, Informative)
Oh, and the Antec PSU in my personal machine died one day, possibly because it was plugged into an 11-year-old surge protector. I got a free replacement (minus shipping), and the replacement is a nicer unit and handles more power.
Say what you will, but their service is nothing to complain about.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
It sure is interesting that they chose to test the only antec psu that doesnt have a pci-e connector. The 380W and 420W earthwatts have one, and the 500w basiq has one.
Re: (Score:2)
I use Antec or Thermaltake, both are great. I don't know what GP is crying about.
Yet another case of "I got a defective unit, noone should buy this product" crap. Get warranty, if they keep failing, then start posting on slashdot with the facts, not "it's bad, buy what I've been told is good".
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Antec is the worst (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Antec is the worst (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
silentpcreview.com nicely complements jonnyguru (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, I agree that jonnyguru.com is the best review source for PSU stability (noise and transients are measured with oscilloscope and compared with ATX specs) and build quality (inside pics and commentary on components used). If you additionally care about the noise your PSU is making at various loads, silentpcreview.com has those measurements. I bought a couple of power supplies based on the review on to those two sites, and never had issues stability or noise wise.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Except, of course, for the Antec EarthWatts. And the TruePower series. Both of which are... made by Seasonic.
Not entirely true.
The older EarthWatts were made by Seasonic, the newer ones are made by Delta.
Source: http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=110 [jonnyguru.com]
AngryTec is the worst. (Score:4, Insightful)
"You can hide a multitude of sins behind one of those "Warranty void if broken" paper seals. ;)"
Slashdot has one of those.
Parent
Re:Antec is the worst (Score:4, Interesting)
Right. Bose is one of the best brands of speakers, and neon lights make your computer go faster. Sorry, but Antec is all marketing and no quality. All the ricer overclockers want to believe that Antec PSUs make their computers +0.2% faster, but the truth is, Antec uses some of the lowest quality parts in their PSUs and if you check something like badcaps.net, you'll realize that Antec is one of the most commonly reported brands in the PSU category, and most widely complained about brand in the forums.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
As a PC repairman I have run into the Bestec brand a few times, even built a few machine with them, and I can tell you it ain't the brand, although they are cheap and I tend not to use them(they have lousy fans if they even bother to have a fan at all) except in the occasional "granny" machines that are only doing basic web stuff. I can tell you the problem with both the HP and the eMachine you describe, because I have ran into it in the shop, and the problem is this:
For awhile there both HP and eMachine wo