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A Brief History of Features Apple Has Killed
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Fri Oct 17, 2008 05:12 PM
from the or-you-might-be-a-fanboi dept.
from the or-you-might-be-a-fanboi dept.
Technologizer writes "Some folks are outraged over the lack of FireWire in the new MacBook released this week. But Apple wouldn't be Apple if it didn't move faster than any other computer company to kill technologies that may be past their prime. And history usually validates its decisions. We've posted a decade's worth of examples that prove the point."
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Submission: A Brief History of Features Apple Has Killed by Anonymous Coward
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Outrage! (Score:5, Funny)
The new Macbook doesn't have an 8" floppy?!?!
I won't buy one then, wah, wah, waaaaaaahhhh!
Re:Outrage! (Score:4, Insightful)
it's not even the same thing. Firewire provides much faster transfer speeds than USB 2.0--3200 Mbps versus 400 Mbps. 8" floppies were phased out because of the technologically superior 5.25" floppies. and those were subsequently replaced by the 3.5" floppies.
i'm not saying that all computers need a Firewire port, because that's obviously not the case. but having used Firewire compared to USB to transfer large amounts of data, i don't think Firewire should be dismissed so easily.
i'm guessing Firewire has lost out to USB because it's more expensive to implement, whether due to licensing fees or inherent hardware costs, but i would hate to see such a useful technology be killed off just because USB 2.0 is "good enough" for the average user. Firewire makes a huge difference when you're working with audio/video editing, or working with lots of hi-def images or other large files. i would not have thought that Apple would discard a technology that is so vital to their traditional customer base.
Parent
Re:Outrage! (Score:5, Insightful)
This seems like a fairly blatant attempt to enforce separation between the macbook and the pro. Now that both are practically identical in build quality and the difference in GPU performance is merely large rather than absolutely enormous, they need a differentiating factor. Firewire seems to have been chosen. I suspect that Apple knows what they are doing, Apple zealots are zealous, most of them will suck it up and pay, and they can use their top of the line construction to sell macbooks to switcher college students. It sure isn't a nice thing to do, though.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
This seems like a fairly blatant attempt to enforce separation between the macbook and the pro. ... they need a differentiating factor. Firewire seems to have been chosen.
Fools! I'll simply purchase a Firewire-to-USB adapter!
Re:Outrage! (Score:5, Interesting)
were you thinking of this [folklore.org]? Steve forced the removal of the diagnostic port from the original Macintosh because he thought it could be used for augmenting the system. X_X
Burrell decided to add a single, simple slot to his Macintosh design, which made the processor's bus accessible to peripherals, that wouldn't cost very much, especially if it wasn't used. He worked out the details and proposed it at the weekly staff meeting, but Steve immediately nixed his proposal, stating that there was no way that the Mac would even have a single slot.
But Burrell was not that easily thwarted. He realized that the Mac was never going to have something called a slot, but perhaps the same functionality could be called something else. After talking it over with Brian, they decided to start calling it the "diagnostic port" instead of a slot, arguing that it would save money during manufacturing if testing devices could access the processor bus to diagnose manufacturing errors. They didn't mention that the same port would also provide the functionality of a slot.
This was received positively at first, but after a couple weeks, engineering manager Rod Holt caught on to what was happening, probably aided by occasional giggles when the diagnostic port was mentioned. "That things really a slot, right? You're trying to sneak in a slot!", Rod finally accused us at the next engineering meeting. "Well, that's not going to happen!"
Parent
Re:Outrage! (Score:5, Insightful)
Steve Jobs and Apple engineers should go to some music studios, movie studios and see why those people demand 12" or 13" laptops.
Let me give a clue to "cheap bastard buy a macbook pro 15" zealots and apologisers. The sound system they plug to firewire port of G4 is way more higher priced than your "pro" laptop.
They actually use the portable at work, to produce something, not to show off at local cafe and the one thing you can't find in studios is SPACE. They are the first ones to move to LCD (sound guys) even while technology and refresh rates were awful.
Parent
Re:Outrage! (Score:5, Interesting)
I am thinking that they are starting to try to wean people off of FW because USB3 is on the cusp of becoming available in consumer devices. It will likely replace both USB2 and FW.
Parent
Re:Outrage! (Score:4, Informative)
That's very cool, but the Macbook doesn't have USB3, either.
Parent
Re:Outrage! (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Outrage! (Score:4, Interesting)
But as has been repeated pointed out, the MacBook is a consumer grade device. I know, I have one. The MBP, the Mac Pro, and the iMac still have firewire. Technically the Mac Mini does too, but I wouldn't be surprised if it goes away in the next rev. Firewire has proven to be a pro-spec. The main people that use it are audio and video pros or dedicated amateurs. It makes sense to offer it on the computers that pros will use and leave it off of the consumer grade stuff. When I bought my MacBook I was aware that I was buying lower end gear. Had I wanted MBP specs, I'd have spent the extra money.
Parent
Re:Outrage! (Score:4, Informative)
No problem, if Apple hasn't included Firewire then just buy your next Mac from any one of the wide range of competing hardware vendors... right... right?
Using a Mac means you have to bend over for Steve Jobs. It's pointless complaining about it.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
you probably haven't seen them because you just don't use them. but that doesn't mean they're not useful or that no one uses them.
a lot of external hard drives have firewire ports. most major external storage vendors will sell two different flavors of each device, one that comes with firewire and one with USB only. but most end users usually opt for the USB models as they're cheaper.
i mean, if you're only transferring 100-200 MB of data then it probably doesn't seem like a very significant difference--what'
Re:Outrage! (Score:5, Insightful)
Please use real math.
The differences you cite would mean 50 gig of data would take approximately 100 more seconds.
15 minutes and a minute and a half are two different things. Just ask your gf next time YOU'RE done having sex :)
--Toll_Free
Parent
Re:Outrage! (Score:4, Funny)
You must be new here.
Parent
Re:Outrage! (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:Outrage! (Score:4, Interesting)
*Seen a firewire device
I have a firewire iPod mini (yes, it's old - but it still works, why should I get rid of it?), three firewire backup drives for the old G4 we use as a server at my workplace (yes, again, it's old - but it's an inexpensive recycling of old equipment for a useful purpose which has enabled our small business to free up cash for other uses).
*Seen a firewire port on anything besides a faulty motherboard I once had
Just so this doesn't appear like a Mac-only rant, my wife's 2 year old PC also has Firewire built into the motherboard. On anything but cheap PC trash it's pretty ubiquitous...
*Seen anyone using a firewire device
Then you don't get out much.
I don't think many people care, at least here in Australia. :\
Well I'm in Australia and I will certainly be keeping clear of the MacBook - but then again, I agree with another post's suggestion that this is part of an Apple strategy to (a) ease the market away from Firewire, and (b) differentiate the MacBook market (student etc. that uses their Mac for nothing more than web/email/productivity apps) from the MacBook Pro which is for users that want all the bells and whistles and are prepared to pay for them.
Parent
One more thing you haven't seen: (Score:4, Interesting)
A Mac Mini used as a router, ethernet to the telco's dongle, Firewire to the local network.
It's true that you may be able (with considerable effort and a few choice Japanese and Korean words of incantation) to do that with a USB port, but you can't do it with standard USB.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
The new Macbook doesn't have an 8" floppy?!?!
It's worse than that. It doesn't even read Hollerith cards.
-jcr
It's not about reading them one at a time. (Score:3, Funny)
Ahh, to be young...
We old farts never forget the first time seeing a hardcore high-end card reader suck up a four-foot hopper full of cards in less than five seconds, with a noise like ten Shop-Vacs and one Cessna.
audio recording (Score:4, Interesting)
I would love to know what Apple expects basement musicians to use to record multitrack audio. Firewire is way better suited to that and frankly after buying mics, instruments, amps, and mic preamps that group tends not to have an extra $1000 for a computer.
Re:audio recording (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:audio recording (Score:5, Insightful)
Something besides the MacBook that doesn't have the Firewire port?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Not only that, but Apple created FireWire and tried to shove it down everyone's throats. Now they say you don't need it, that's just bullshit. Apple does what they want with hardware,
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Want firewire (or anything else Apple deems not important enough for YOUR price point), GET SOMETHING ELSE, OR GET A NEW HOBBY.
What a great approach: if a company doesn't offer the goods you want, don't DARE give them feedback on how to improve their goods! Just SUCK IT UP AND DEAL WITH THE SHIT APPLE GIVES YOU!
Thank God most consumers have more sense than you, and try to get companies to sell the products they want.
It's all what you put out (Score:4, Insightful)
Am I missing something... (Score:5, Informative)
Something missing here. The article claims to be "A Brief History of Features Apple Has Killed" Yet, the article has nothing of the sort, and the linked page is a just an opinion piece on the lack of Firewire in the new MacBooks.
I'm guessing this [technologizer.com] is the link that was intended.
Re:Am I missing something... (Score:4, Informative)
"Musicians like them for live recording because they're pretty small, have firewire, and a kernel with decent realtime performance."
Musicians who want to record live can get some pretty sophisticated dedicated DAWs for significantly less than the cost of a MacBook plus decent DAW software. They're available from a variety of manufacturers (e.g. Boss / Roland, Edirol, Fostex, Korg, Tscam, Yamaha, Zoom) in many different sizes, configurations, and prices, ranging from cheap little 4 track items that easily fit into the palm of a hand and cost less than $150 right up to 32 track, 24-bit systems with XLR inputs for each channel, phantom powering, pull-up displays, and integral CD mastering hardware and software for around $1200.
Parent
Correct link (Score:5, Informative)
HUNDREDS of angry users!!!! (Score:5, Informative)
says the article. That's right: 'Hundreds,' not 'tens of thousands.' Get it? The average consumer doesn't give a rip.
Firewire isn't "past its prime" (Score:5, Interesting)
Firewire isn't past its prime. Apple wanted to further differentiate the consumer and pro versions of their laptops, and Steve Jobs' comment about recent consumer camcorders using USB is a reflection f that. Firewire is still used in the professional space for audio and other high-bandwidth data transfer situations where you don't want the CPU bogged down.
firewire not past prime (Score:5, Insightful)
There is also a matter of not putting gratuitous features on the machine just to meet the buzz word compliance features. For example, many people complain that the Airport has no firewire port, and I am one of those because some of my kit is firewire only. But given the wireless transfer speeds, 54 Mbits/second, why put a 400 Mbit/sec on it. Sure, if one is using GHz ethernet, it would be nice a FW800 interface, but how many of us do this. And this is the case, perhaps an network aware hard drive is a better solution, which I see are not very expensive.
What is true is that Apple does not waste resources support tech that no longer serves a broad purpose. This means that many of us have closets full of old tech. What this also means is that we don't have to worry about installing drivers every time we put in a USB drive, most cameras work with the standard picture protocol, and if we are willing to pay for the machine, we have external hardware that communicates at fast speeds, built in.
nVidia SouthBridge (Score:3, Insightful)
It is a matter or an expensive technology being removed because most people do not wish to pay for it.
That may be true but it was nVidia who made the call, not Apple. The 9400M southbridge [nvidia.com] in the Macbook simply doesn't support firewire.
I suspect Apple simply looked at all its CUDA cores and decided that realtime h.264 for the YouTube set was simply more important than firewire. Yeah, they could have done a discrete firewire implementation but then they're adding cost back in, and Apple isn't going to do d
Maybe Apple should kill the 1-button mouse (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously ... it's time for it go!
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
They did. All their most recent mice, including the trackpad, are "no-button" mice.
Re:Maybe Apple should kill the 1-button mouse (Score:5, Insightful)
That's actually one of the more annoying things they did.
After using real two-button mice for years, I have a habit of having a finger on each button. With the Mighty Mouse, ok, it's cool that it's a touch sensor, but it means I have to lift my left finger to make it a right button.
Parent
Nothing better than Firewire (Score:5, Insightful)
Even USB was faster than parallel ports, and RS232, and DVI was better than RGB.
But FireWire was better than SCSI, and nothing touches it yet. The reason that it is a problem that it was gone, is that there is a significant portion of the MacBook population that used FireWire. It will still be used by the higher end macs, but paying 800-1000 for a port is insane. So the choice is to keep using outdated macs, pay TOO much for a port, or go windows.
This is not just an outdated, or soon to be outdated port. This is used, and it is replaced by nothing, and what remains is worse.
This is just a bad idea.
Cheap and 'good enough' beats expensive and better (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry guys, I know FireWire is faster and cooler than USB 2 (no sarcasm there) and has neat features like the easy peer to peer connection, but USB won the market. Cheap and 'pretty good enough' beats out better and more expensive almost every time. Given that Apple has to put USB on any laptop (leaving that off would really be a disaster), adding FireWire as well just adds to their expense and complexity.
We had this discussion, what, 5 years ago about SCSI? Yeah, IDE/SATA won that one too.
You could argue that the Mac's growing market share itself argues against this, but to me that's just due to sufficient numbers of people thinking Vista isn't 'pretty good enough'. I know some of you love it dearly, but to most people FireWire just doesn't matter. Apple's eventually gonna ditch it, so they've started weaning you off it now.
Re:Cheap and 'good enough' beats expensive and bet (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think you understand.
A lot of us "outraged" at the omission of FW are mad because of the following reasons:
-digital video (My sister was sold on the capability to import movies of her son and make DVDs and send them to our parents overseas. Big deal for home users interested in this.)
-digital audio (I don't know anything about that, so I can't comment, it seems like a big deal.)
-firewire target disk mode (huge deal for those of us supporting friends and family, even bigger for those of us who have to deploy tens of laptops at the same time. We use firewire drives to slap images on them. If you've never done this you probably don't understand the huge time saving.)
-firewire devices (I've invested in a few FW hard drives because of their power through bus capability, portability and speed, now they're all useless for data storage, time machine, etc.)
There are counter arguments too... .. use time machine, or netrestore, or go se a genius instead of friend-tech support
- digital video, all the HD camcorders supposedly come with USB
- digital audio.. whatever, I don't know
-FW TDM
-firewire devices... SOL
I've successfully "switched" over a dozen friends and family to macs, knowing that in a pinch I could boot into FW TDM and recover their data, or that simply buying an inexpensive external FW disk they could have TimeMachine.
But now, I will not suggest a MacBook for anyone that I may need to support. Especially not for work, where we have over 50 MacBooks deployed. Which is unfortunate, because it really is an excellent machine.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
All your stuff no longer works.
Really?
(plugs in Firewire drive, watches it mount)
Phew! It still works!
By the way, while Apple dropped Firewire from the main consumer-level laptop, they kept it on every other machine (the 13" MacBook, all MacBook Pros, the Mac Mini, the iMacs and the tower). It doesn't look like they're dumping Firewire to me.
There's no winning or losing in this standards 'war' - Firewire and USB aren't competing for the same market. There's a fair amount of market overlap, but Firewire is
Firewire fails (Score:3, Insightful)
I had to check what a Firewire cable and port look like. Why? Because it's rare. Sure, there are a lot of cameras with a firewire port but USB is just that more prevalent. There isn't a modern computer in the world without a USB port. Seriously, I took this from wikipedia:
"Full support for IEEE 1394a and 1394b is available for Microsoft Windows XP, FreeBSD, Linux[6], Apple Mac OS 8.6 through to Mac OS 9[7], and Mac OS X as well as NetBSD and Haiku. Historically, performance of 1394 devices may have decreased after installing Windows XP Service Pack 2, but were resolved in Hotfix 885222[8] and in SP3. Some FireWire hardware manufacturers also provide custom device drivers which replace the Microsoft OHCI host adapter driver stack, enabling S800-capable devices to run at full 800 Mbit/s transfer rates on older versions of Windows (XP SP2 w/o Hotfix 885222) and Windows Vista. At the time of its release, Microsoft Windows Vista supported only 1394a, with assurances that 1394b support would come in the next service pack.[9] Service Pack 1 for Microsoft Windows Vista has since been released, however the addition of 1394b support is not mentioned anywhere in the release documentation.[10][11][12]"
See? They don't care. Nobody cares. Try that with a USB protocol. There would be total outrage at the fact that there would be no proper USB protocol support.
Now let's look at the back of my computers. Count the number of Firewire ports you see and compare them to USB ports. My computers have 0 or 1 fw ports but they all have 3-5 usb ports on the back alone(not including my usb hub for my golden oldie). Then add some usb in front and you know that it is a widespread standard. And you also must not forget usb sticks and usb external hard drives. The whole world runs on usb(including a usb vacuum cleaner ;) ).
Sure, firewire might be better but it does not matter. Cut the cord and let it die. This year will not be the year of firewire in the desktop.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Now let's look at the back of my computers. Count the number of Firewire ports you see and compare them to USB ports. My computers have 0 or 1 fw ports but they all have 3-5 usb ports on the back alone(not including my usb hub for my golden oldie). Then add some usb in front and you know that it is a widespread standard.
Firewire is a network of equal peers, which can be chained together. That's why most computers with Firewire only have 1 or 2 ports, and most devices have 2 ports. There's no differentiation between a host computer and other devices, so it's trivial to network between two computers, or between a camcorder and a hard drive, for example.
This fact actually turns your argument upside down; Firewire can do more with less. Of course, the more intelligent controllers and the network topology are overkill for si
RS-232 (Score:3, Informative)
Macs never had RS-232. They had RS-422.
And yet... (Score:5, Interesting)
Firewire allows DMA access to all of memory, it was joked that since Apple's come with firewire they're more insecure than PCs. Nobody would seriously recommend removing Firewire for this reason... and yet these laptops have better physical security than the ones before them. Imagine an encrypted HD with a password request on resume... it gets stolen at the coffee shop, the bad guy takes it home being careful to not allow the battery to die. They open the lid, plug into it's firewire and snag the HD keys.
A laptop with sensitive information on it shouldn't have Firewire.
It's just one of the positives of this announcement.
Not really (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Exactly right. It's called technology lock-in, and it often (at least to me) seems pretty arbitrary (the classic examples being modern clocks going clockwise rather than counter-clockwise, and the QWERTY keyboard). "History validating Apple's decisions" of killing technology is rather a weak anthropic principle, rather than any explanatory answer.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Is there no USB 2.0, which is nearly equal and has the huge advantage of being more mainstream?
The whole article is a troll. I mean "they killed the floppy" that was in the original Mac? Hell they *invented* the scheme that let them store twice as much as PC's did on the same size floppy media. That was great, but now we're all thankful that the floppy is obsolete.
They "killed" nuBus once PCI finally came along and was
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It's not incomprehensible, it's good business sense. The Apple model is make average hardware and very shiny software, then bundle them together with technological safeguards and profit off selling the hardware at 2-3x what other manufacturers charge (for upgardes, initial computers are far more reasonable but there's still the "apple tax")
Apple and MS are about as evil, if anything Apple is worse per unit user. The difference is Apple can make software that doesn't suck in the OS division AND elsewhere.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If you're doing beefy AV processing yes, you're going to have a MacBook Pro, or a suitable desktop (PC alternatives are available, but this is an Apple thread so I'll stick to Mac).
However, Apple touts iLife as one of the big selling points of Macs, and iMovie 08 is a part of that. MacBooks are more than powerful enough to rip your home movie and chop it about in iMovie to share with family, but without a FireWire port you're going to have an awful time importing video, often having to use an external adapt
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
An Apple fan who is obviously not an Apple fan - the Xserve has an RS-232 port on it.