Slashdot Log In
Negroponte Says Windows 'Runs Well' On XO Laptop
Posted by
Soulskill
on Wed Apr 23, 2008 07:05 PM
from the set-the-hook-and-reel-them-in dept.
from the set-the-hook-and-reel-them-in dept.
Stony Stevenson alerts us to comments from OLPC founder Nicholas Negroponte indicating his approval of Windows' performance on the XO laptop. Negroponte said in an email, "Sugar needs a wider basis, to run on more Linux platforms and to run under Windows." The full email is available at OLPC News. He was also quoted by the Associated Press as saying that Sugar "didn't have a software architect who did it in a crisp way," and cited the lack of Flash as an example. Negroponte continued, "There are several examples like that, that we have to address without worrying about the fundamentalism in some of the open-source community. One can be an open-source advocate without being an open-source fundamentalist."
Related Stories
[+]
Technology: Negroponte vs. Open-Source Fundamentalists 414 comments
fyoder writes "Within the world of One Laptop per Child, both the Negropontistas and the Benderites envision a future for Sugar where it runs on multiple platforms, but the latter don't want Windows (or closed source anything) as part of that future. OLPC's emphasis has always seemed to me to be on Sugar, with Linux simply being a smart technical choice for the underlying OS. Yet what is becoming more explicit with the resignation of Walter Bender is that for many involved in the project there was a strong element of Linux advocacy, such that Negroponte's flirtation with Microsoft is felt to be pure sacrilege."
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
Lack of Flash?!?!?! (Score:5, Interesting)
The reason they went with Gnash in the first place was because the Adobe Flash player needs more CPU power than the entire damn machine had available.
How is hell is MS's bloatware supposed to fix that?
Re:Lack of Flash?!?!?! (Score:5, Funny)
Mystically, with an infusion of Bill Gates $$$ up the orifice, like any other Kool-Aid©.
Parent
Re:Lack of Flash?!?!?! (Score:4, Insightful)
"One can be an open-source advocate without being an open-source fundamentalist."
Between that and mentioning Windows, he is urging the project to be less open. Frankly, I don't care if it can run Windows. I'm all about choice and competition.
And maybe (just maybe, but I doubt it) someone can spin this to Adobe as a PR move, and they will release an open-sourced Flash plugin, or more likely, a build of the Flash plugin for the next XO.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You can be an open source fanatic, but you cannot be an open source fundamentalist.
Stop. Think about the meaning of the words you are using. Select correct words. Continue.
Re:Lack of Flash?!?!?! (Score:5, Funny)
If I actually thought about the meaning of words I'm using, then I'd never be able to use the word "fartknocker". So I simply find your advice impractical.
Parent
Re:Lack of Flash?!?!?! (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Lack of Flash?!?!?! (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Microsoft is a special case (Score:5, Insightful)
I've seen company after company get burned trying to deal with M$ over the last 15 years, from IBM to DrDOS to
Parent
Re:Lack of Flash?!?!?! (Score:4, Insightful)
Look, fine, run windows on the XO but, were does that leave the $100 price target, burdened with a >$100 OS and then a >>$100 dollar office suite.
No clear thinking person in the open source community supports because it just doesn't make any sense. Sure, we can all pointlessly rabbit on about M$ working with the XO but economically it is just silly waste of time. If M$ wants to supply free software that is unencumbered with future surprise costs amd changes of licence some years down track, then that is great and something they should be doing but, realistically based upon past their past history and specific direct attacks on the whole idea of the OLPC, attacks that extended over a number of years, attacks that were championed by the most senior M$ management, attacks that were designed to destroy OLPC and the XO, just who is kidding who.
Based upon M$'s attacks on the whole idea of open cheap laptops for children and anybody who supported that idea, who in reality are the fundamentalists, the zealots, the evangelists of greed is god. The reality is most open source advocates run M$ windows OS, after all it gives you a choice of a wide range of computer games, fair enough that (P)OS ain't fit for work or school but as a toy OS it is just, almost, somewhat, nearly, fine ;D (hence by definition they are not making a fundamentalist choice of OSs, see, fit for purpose choices, Linux for serious stuff and windows as a toy).
Parent
Power Power Power and infrastructure (Score:5, Interesting)
Thus I always chuckle when I see comparisons to this or that better performing laptop. Of course it's possible to get cheap and faster by going to high power. And you can add more features again by adding power. They were going for cheap and low power.
I think what may have happened here is that windows is now learning to play nice with flash memory and windows CE is presumably learning to play nice with batteries.
The other thing is that the world is moving towards cloud computing. Now while their may not be a cloud available to bushmen in Nairobi. it's not unthinkable that schools might be able to serve apps locally. And MS is building that infrastructure.
So maybe Microsoft is up to the task.
The problem MS will face I suspect is that they lack an agile resizable code base like Linux and Apple have. Windows CE and Windows XP only are simmilar in their look. So this may be a complete blank sheet. Sure XP will run but will it meet the original driver of low power? I suspect not out of the box otherwise it would be Window CE instead.
But MS does have the dowry and an incentive. And the OLPC does need the cash. So it might be a successful arranged marriage. Or maybe it will be one of those Weddings where the groom tosses the bride on the funeral pyre.
Parent
Re:Power Power Power and infrastructure (Score:5, Insightful)
So maybe Microsoft is up to the task.
Are you nuts man? Maybe Microsoft is up to the task of total world domination, you mean. This is totally a farce! They want to train the 3rd world to use the Monopoly software so that they can continue their evil ambitions on into the far future - that's all.
But MS does have the dowry and an incentive. And the OLPC does need the cash.
I am really, really pissed off that Negroponte has sold out to the Monopoly. I mean - sorry to call you nuts, but I don't think you realize what you are saying. It's just monstrous that the Monopoly has the cash to corrupt every person on this planet! All these poor people in the 3rd world - they could start a revolution with Linux! I mean - they could p0wn it! They could do something with their miserable lives, instead of being locked into the Monopoly.
Parent
Re:Power Power Power and infrastructure (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Power Power Power and infrastructure (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux can be supplied free, Windows costs money, and Microsoft only provide a massively crippled version at low cost, which is still more expensive than linux.
Linux encourages and facilitates the kids to learn about the underlying OS, while not everyone will have an interest in doing this, a percentage will, and they will improve the software for their community, as well as providing local support/training to others. Learning about a microsoft platform is far more limited in scope, and not actively encouraged.
The XO runs a current version of linux, but an outdated version of windows that microsoft are pushing hard to deprecate.
Many windows apps cost money, most linux apps are available at no cost, microsoft won't provide users with a full suite of applications for free, it will just push the price up higher. even if microsoft provide apps cheap/free, they wont be the same ones being used in first world businesses so there's no advantage over linux there.
A lot of software will really need to be adapted to the local markets where the XO is sold, providing the source code will facilitate technically minded kids to assist and/or provide feedback. microsoft wont do much to adapt software to the local markets, they're a "one size fits all" operation.
Parent
Re:Power Power Power and infrastructure (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Then why not use ARM? (Score:5, Insightful)
If they'd want to use WinCE, then they should have used ARM too. Most WinCE devices are ARM.
Parent
Re:Lack of Flash?!?!?! (Score:5, Insightful)
The lack of Flash is a really stupid argument against OLPC design, though. I don't think there's anything--legal or technical--to keep a school or country from mass-installing Flash for themselves, even if OLPC doesn't.
Parent
Sadly, Negroponte is correct... (Score:4, Informative)
Quote: "Adobe makes the official Flash plugin, but OLPC cannot ship it on the XOs because it is legally restricted and doesn't meet the OLPC's standards for open software. Instead, the XO ships with Gnash, an open source Flash plugin that can play some (but not all) Flash content. As shipped on the XO, it cannot play YouTube videos. Skilled users can rebuild it to include that functionality."
The Sugar distribution's exclusion of Flash, and only shipping a crippled version of Gnash, is all about open source politics, not technical performance limitations.
Parent
Re:Sadly, Negroponte is correct... (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Wow (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Typical knee-jerk reaction (Score:4, Funny)
Nuh-uh!
In the Crossfire (Score:3, Funny)
don't I know it (Score:5, Interesting)
I am both amazed and dismayed by the extent to which such issues effect people.
Not only that, but almost everyone I know who has been what I would call a rabid opponent of proprietary code haven't themselves released any open source code. They just download the free stuff and get angry about the non free code without a single opinion that wasn't borrowed from someone else.
It seems to me that the fashion is that open source == hates proprietary. This is a nieve viewpoint in my opinion.
Parent
Re:don't I know it (Score:5, Funny)
Seymour Papert, a professor emeritus at MIT and one of the project's founders, said the scheme had refused Jobs' offer on the grounds that Mac OS X is a proprietary system.
Papert told the WSJ: "We declined because it's not open source," adding the $100 laptop creators will only choose an operating system where the source code is open and can be altered.
Parent
And with this... (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps Nick Neg is more interested in delivering advertising to his customers than he is learning opportunities?
Re:And with this... (Score:5, Insightful)
The camera can record brief bits of video. I wouldn't be shocked if users are peeved they can't upload said videos to sites like YouTube. I think that is a valid reason to ask for Flash support.
Parent
Re:And with this... (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
just remember nicholas (Score:5, Insightful)
What version (Score:5, Funny)
Poor software design??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Poor software design??? (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Poor software design??? (Score:4, Insightful)
There's also Kerberos. While it's a great auth solution, MIT's implementation of it is just plain frightening to read... let alone modify. Though I suppose it's been a good 4 years since I've had to work with it.
Parent
Two models (Score:5, Insightful)
Frankly, I think the OLPC project did a great job with their first release, but realize it is only a first release. I think they should diverge and release two models next time.
Model A is closer to the $100 price tag, and will sell better in certain countries. Features should be comparable to the current XO model, but flash memory, processors, etc. keep getting cheaper.
Model B is slightly closer to the ASUS in processing power and storage. Shape, chassis, etc. can all stay the same. It won't match the ASUS model, since power usage is a major concern. But if it were slightly more powerful, you might see a KDE build optimized for it, or maybe even a toned-down version of Windows.
Being able to support a more robust Linux distro, AND the possibility of Windows will be a huge selling point. If they can get a Model B at $250 a pop, they'd sell a ton of these as well.
Re:Two models (Score:5, Informative)
The performance is fine. He even plays a few fps games on it.
Parent
Apple (Score:5, Interesting)
HERESY!! (Score:3, Funny)
HERESY!! release him to the penguins, wildebeest and cute little devils wearing green shoes
This is what happens when you call it a "Laptop" (Score:5, Funny)
But no.
XO: Best Laptop for Windows (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe it "runs well" because it doesn't run at all. Probably the only way to get it to run in a "secure mode", anyway.
I couldn't agree more (Score:5, Insightful)
How true, how true. I couldn't agree more. Open source is like so many things (human rights and the lead free nonsense come to mind) where some people go overboard and just take it way too far. I mean, sure, having your kid chew on a hunk of lead isn't going to be good for them. For one thing, it's not very nutritions. But some people take this way too far, and say that something that is 98% corn syrup with only a trace of lead is just as bad.
Humbug.
I think it is perfectly possible to be an open source advocate without getting all fundamentalist about it, just like you can support human rights but not get too worked up about the occasional state sponsored rape, torture, genocide, or whatever. The important thing is that you advocate the right side on the broader issue, not that you pay any attention to any specific exceptions.
And besides, what's the big deal about open source anyway? Big deal.. It's not like it was free software, or anything.
--MarkusQ
No big deal (Score:5, Interesting)
I read the letter on the OLPC site and the article about Windows running well on the XO, but I couldn't get to the article that mentioned flash. Flash in my opinion is the scourge of the internet these days, and don't go off on a youtube rant, internet video and streaming codecs were available before flash.
From what I've read nothing has really changed, Windows on OLPC was in the works and it doesn't mean that linux will be dumped. So much for the sensationalist headlines. You have media outlets and scumbag corporate leaders who will juice this for all its worth but really it means nothing.
I will say that it appears from Negroponte's message that there may be some friction between the Sugar developers and Negroponte probably concerning the porting of Sugar to Windows. He is welcome to his view but really it has absolutely nothing to do with Open Source Fundamentalism.
If the open source developers of Sugar are balking at porting their work to Windows it should be no surprise, unless you've been living in a vacuum for the past 10 years. The Microsoft Corporation has not only been found guilty of using illegal business tactics to destroy competition in the market to maintain their ludicrous profit margins but they have also been on a non-stop PR harassment campaign specifically targeted against the same developers who wrote Sugar.
In the end it matters not, if Negroponte wants Sugar on Windows all he has to do is ask that wealthy corporation to invest some of their ill gotten gains in porting the open source code themselves. After all, its not like Microsoft's developers aren't used to leeching off the open source community to support their proprietary products. What would be interesting is seeing the response he gets to using open source code in a high profile project considering Microsoft has labeled it a cancer.
Negroponte is a Moron (Score:4, Interesting)
He also helped start the OLPC project, which couldn't get anywhere while he was "helping".
Why does anyone listen to him anymore, just because MIT was fool enough to give him money for a Media Lab once upon a time (a long long time ago)?
The other shoe drops (Score:4, Informative)
The Bayless "Freeplay" radio began with many of the same ideals as OLPC. But it is tough to hold your ground when the OEM giants see opportunities in the same market.
It would be easy for OLPC to go the same way as the Simputer. [wikipedia.org]
You can't hold the line on costs. Your sales projections are unrealistic.
You have a solid platform for development but not much else. The mass-market alternative is leaping ahead of your own technology and is compatible with an enormous library of existing software.
it ain't Sugar (Score:5, Insightful)
Putting Windows on the OLPC and Sugar on Windows negatively affects many of those issues: it makes the thing more expensive, it eliminates many of the interesting technologies (power management, mesh networking,
The only thing that might make a tiny amount of sense is to offer Windows Mobile, because you'd actually have a chance of running Windows Mobile apps on the OLPC. But what Windows Mobile apps would be of any interest to an OLPC user? What relevant Windows Mobile apps don't already have superior Linux equivalents available?
I think Negroponte is losing it. Get the passionate, good people back that left and put the OLPC back on track. Forget about Windows.
Re:Screw Sugar (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Screw Sugar (Score:5, Informative)
The biggest problem is the Journal. Personally I find it far more confusing than a hierarchical file system. More often than not I find myself using the terminal which, by the way, doesn't seem to allow copy and paste.
A conventional computer isn't hard to figure out, even for the very young. Beyond basic functionality, I think sugar will hinder learning more than anything, given how tough it can be to do even very basic things.
Parent
Re:Screw Sugar (Score:5, Insightful)
It also allows young children who can't read to interface with the computer in a meaningful way.
Sugar was also designed around mesh-networking, power-consumption, e-reader mode, etc.
Certainly there is room for improvement, but Puppy/Slack/DSL would not have been a perfect implementation either.
Parent
Re:Screw Sugar (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:who wins? (Score:4, Interesting)
The truth is, who knows what's going on in Negroponte's head? He isn't being all that forthcoming, even with the recent statement. From what he has said, he seems to think that availability of Windows will end up in more XO's being distributed.
So maybe countries are demanding it, and you can imagine that any country thinking of buying into the XO is going to have Microsoft/Intel Classmate reps on their other shoulder, saying "but does it run Windows? This one does".
The funny thing about this to me is that lots of developing countries are skipping generations of technology, like going straight to wireless phones without ever having laid copper Ma-Bell style.
And here they have a chance to skip the horrors of Microsoft and go straight to Linux (which the developed world is coming around to), but instead they think they want XP. These are probably the same countries buying Camel cigarettes now that we've stopped smoking. Oh well.
Parent
Re:This is why even more openess is needed (Score:4, Insightful)
OLPC needs to sell those things commercially, when they don't have the resources to do so themselves they need to partner up with somebody who has to. This whole elitist thing with "only for third world" is getting kind of tiring.
Parent
Re:Isn't Microsoft out to destory OLPC? (Score:5, Insightful)
All this Microsoft interest in OLPC is to stop Linux and open source software on the devices. Do you really think they are going to let the Sugar interface cover up the Windows Explorer desktop? Hell now they are not and Negroponte was vary vague in what he considered "sugar". I sounded more like he wanted the sugar apps torn from the sugar desktop so they run on Windows Explorer. That is what Microsoft wants as it means the Linux and open source stack( Sugar ) is locked out of this market.
No conspiracy, pure facts from years and years of consistent anti-competitive business methods like this. Not fine when you're a monopoly convicted and charged many times with protectionism.
LoB
Parent