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The Starbucks/AT&T Deal To Change Perception of Public Wi-Fi?

Posted by Zonk on Thu Feb 14, 2008 03:11 PM
from the more-for-free-less-for-pay dept.
Wireless Networking Businesses The Almighty Buck The Internet Hardware
ericatcw writes "According to ComputerWorld, with two hours of free Wi-Fi soon to arrive at Starbucks consumers should expect more hotspots to go free as well as more attractive bundles from the likes of AT&T, Verizon and providers. While T-Mobile is hurting, indie coffeehouses and chains such as Caribou Coffee, Tully's and others that already offered free Wi-Fi, insist they are not, saying their ambiance and superior brew will help them retain customers."
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Submission: Six ways Starbucks-AT&T deal changes Wi-Fi by ericatcw (1194651)
[+] T-Mobile Sues Starbucks Over Free Wi-Fi Deal 142 comments
Glenn Fleishman writes "T-Mobile sent me the text of a lawsuit they filed yesterday against Starbucks. The telecom firm alleges that Starbucks didn't involve it in any discussions to launch their free loyalty program Wi-Fi service this week with AT&T. AT&T is gradually taking over hot-spot operation from T-Mobile, market by market over the course of 2008. T-Mobile told me Starbucks is essentially giving away something that isn't theirs. T-Mobile has sued to halt the two-hours-a-day of free service, and is asking for money to cover losses. This might sound like sour grapes, but T-Mobile still operates most of the network, and says that the terms to which they agreed with Starbucks and AT&T for the transition and with AT&T for bilateral roaming don't cover this situation at all. Maybe free access in exchange for buying a cup of joe every 30 days was too good to be true (this soon)."
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  • ...it would seem that access to said information also wants to be free.
    • WiFi in Oz is charged at exorbitant rates ($15/hr). Starbucks has got Telstra to put in the WiFi infrastructure. Telstra is the incumbant ex-public telco.

      In Melbourne where I live I can name one free WiFi _location_ which is a food court.

      With the advent of HSDPA/3G (Telstra call it NextG), I can see WiFi NEVER taking off. (Why be limited to 50m radius of a hotspot when you cal roam all throughout the capital city)?

      Crispi
    • This is awesome. I'd love to be able to get free WiFi access at Starbucks. Just to check my email on my iTouch. A lot of McDonalds and Paneras already have it. And I don't know what the summary is talking about because a lot of indie coffee shops around me have free WiFi. I've always kind of wondered why Starbucks and B&N charge for WiFi. Maybe just to discourage campers. Not that it isn't their right to do so, and they're certainly not hurting for business, but it's not like offering free WiFi is espec

  • Who else agrees (Score:4, Insightful)

    by TubeSteak (669689) on Thursday February 14 2008, @03:16PM (#22424978) Journal
    That ubiquitous, free (if slow) wifi is going to be the way of the future?
    • Agreed (although I would qualify the adjective 'slow' with the adverb 'relatively'). Wi-Fi is fast becoming an expected service, as ubiquitous and taken for granted as electricity and running water. When you go out to eat, do you get charged for using the restroom? Do you pay a fee for the electricity used while you ate your meal? The pay-for-WiFi model is becoming just as ridiculous.
      • Well technically, you do pay a fee for the electricity used while you ate your meal, but it's bundled into the cost of the meal. Considering how much a cable line and a WiFi router for customer use would cost businesses, I'd be willing to pay an extra cent for my meal if it translated to 'free' WiFi access.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Spleen (9387)
          Coffee shops and restaurants are somewhat different businesses. Coffee shops want people to hang around because they'll buy another cup or two. Restaurants on the other hand know that once people have had their meal they are doing spending money there. There are exceptions to that, but it is generally true. If a Restaurant's tables are generally full they want people to eat and then leave. Ever have to wait for a table? Imagine if that place had free WiFi and people stuck around after they ate. Peopl
          • Nah, I don't really agree. At one time, I would have sided with you on this one. But at least from what I've observed, coffee shops have evolved in recent years to become much more like restaurants. The idea of a coffee shop being a social hang-out is dying off. (Just like restaurants, they also figured out people are only going to drink so much coffee during a visit.) When you encourage people to hang around playing board or card games, reading books, etc. - you wind up with a place that's half full o

    • Re:Who else agrees (Score:4, Insightful)

      by misleb (129952) on Thursday February 14 2008, @03:42PM (#22425380)
      Not if it continues to utilize the 2.4Ghz range. In most urban areas the 2.4Ghz band is already saturated. I went to install Wifi in one of our satelite offices here in Portland I was able to see 50... that's right 50! other APs in the area. That sucks when there are 3 (4 if you push it) non-overlapping channels available.

  • What? Americans PAY? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Shuntros (1059306) on Thursday February 14 2008, @03:16PM (#22424980)
    Wifi in European Starbucks has been free for a long time now. Buy a coffee, get a free wifi scratchcard. When credit runs out, go back to counter and get another one.....

    • Re:What? Americans PAY? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by jwietelmann (1220240) on Thursday February 14 2008, @04:13PM (#22425952)
      For every Starbucks here in the USA that charges for Wifi, there's a mom 'n' pop or local chain coffeehouse across the street that offers it for free.

      In fact, I've heard that a sure way to open a successful independent coffee shop is to open one right by a Starbucks. They've already done all the research on the location for you, and given a choice, I think a lot of people prefer to support the little guy and enjoy a less commercial atmosphere.

      • Re:What? Americans PAY? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by syzler (748241) <david AT syzdek DOT net> on Thursday February 14 2008, @08:04PM (#22429064)
        In fact, I've heard that a sure way to open a successful independent coffee shop is to open one right by a Starbucks. They've already done all the research on the location for you, and given a choice, I think a lot of people prefer to support the little guy and enjoy a less commercial atmosphere.

        That is funny since where I live, Starbucks is the little guy. In Anchorage, AK the big coffee shop player is Kaladis Brothers. Kaladis has been offering free wireless to anyone since I came to Anchorage seven years ago. They also have a nicer atmosphere with big over stuffed couches and chairs, plenty of tables, and power outlets for computers every where. Most of the local restaurants and grocers feature "Kaladi Coffee" instead of Starbucks.
      • And even McDonald's offers free wifi in most of their locations now.

        Every coffee house I know of within 500 miles of me that ISN'T a Starbucks has free totally open wifi 24/7, no codes or purchase required.

  • I never understood the T-Mobile/Starbucks deal (Score:5, Insightful)

    by vondo (303621) on Thursday February 14 2008, @03:20PM (#22425028)
    Aside from airports* and some hotels, wireless is free everywhere that has it. (And what are you going to do, use another airport?)

    Seemingly everywhere now has free wireless: coffee shops, my car dealership, bars, etc. Why on earth would I go to Starbucks and pay $2 for a coffee (not a double soy quad shot latte, a COFFEE) and then pay an extra $10 for a wireless connection?

    That deal was doomed from the start and in today's climate is just silly. The new one is quite realistic.

    * Fort Lauderdale and Jacksonville, I believe, have free wireless at the airport. Nice of them!

    • Re:I never understood the T-Mobile/Starbucks deal (Score:5, Insightful)

      by vondo (303621) on Thursday February 14 2008, @03:23PM (#22425080)
      In other words, the "perception" of public wireless is already that it's free.
    • A profit motive is generally a good way to start the ball rolling. It paid for the initial setup of infrastructure too.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by samkass (174571)
      Aside from airports* and some hotels, wireless is free everywhere that has it. (And what are you going to do, use another airport?)

      Actually, yes. It's one of several reasons that, living in mid-NJ, I drive down to Philadelphia instead of up to Newark for my flights (the other being substantially fewer delays, of course). Philadelphia has free wireless (as does Pittsburgh), but Newark charges $8... someone would have to be really desperate to pay that.
      • You don't fly internationally much, huh? Not many Intl. flights out of Philadelphia, not for a decent price.. or maybe you spend more on your flight, to save the $8?

        Personally, I've paid $10/day for wireless plenty of times. I actually spent about $20 in Berlin for internet, when I was stuck there waiting for a layover. I wouldn't consider myself desperate when paying, but I do use it for business, not pleasure.
    • "Why on earth would I go to Starbucks and pay $2 for a coffee (not a double soy quad shot latte, a
      COFFEE) and then pay an extra $10 for a wireless connection?"

      The second part can be answered by the same reason in the first part... $2 for a coffee indeed! Coffee is free or way cheaper than $2 at many locations, and yet starbucks has built an empire selling $2 coffee with $1-2 in extra sugar and calories dumped in for good measure. Maybe the $10 wireless comes with a big cookie.
    • Among airports I've been to recently, Tucson, Phoenix, Albuquerque, Denver (a recent change from a pay service), and Kansas City all have free wi-fi. When it's a hub you're changing in, you can (to a limited extent) choose your airport.

      (But never change planes in Kansas City if you can avoid it -- the gate areas are so small that you have to leave security to change planes!)

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by pak9rabid (1011935)
      You wouldn't..just steal the fscking service. It's not very hard. Follow these simple steps:
      1. Establish layer 2 connectivity (connect to the wifi network)
      2. Populate your arp cache with other MACs/IPs on the network (nmap -sP 192.168.1.0/24 works nicely..substitute the proper subnet of course)
      3. Pick a MAC/IP pair at random, and set your MAC/IP to these values, but don't use the MAC/IP of the firewall
      4. Test connection (ping google.com or try browser)
      5. Repeat the last 2 steps as necessary until you get past thei
    • http://www.jiwire.com/ [jiwire.com] Look for the FREE providers, but the site lists all, so if you are desperate, you can look for pay providers, too.

      Layne

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by _PimpDaddy7_ (415866)
      $2? Where?
      A tall(10/12 ounces) is about $1.67 I think. If you bring your USED Starbucks cup or a starbucks mug it's a $.35 refill. Did you know that?

      Where are you getting $2???? I live and work in Boston/Cambridge area and that's what I pay. Well worth it for free wi fi. ALL StarBucks I go to the service is so friendly and helpful it's crazy. Places I go to routinely know me and are even more friendly. I don't even go everyday, I mostly brew starbucks or other brands at home. But when I have to go into
      • Probably Tampa I was thinking of. I know I stopped of somewhere on Southwest coming from FLL. Come to think of it, I stopped in Jacksonville a couple of times but never got off the plane.
      • Huntsville (HSV) has it, and I believe Bush Intercontinental (IAH) also has it.

  • Panera Has Had Free WiFi For Years (Score:5, Informative)

    by cbowland (205263) on Thursday February 14 2008, @03:28PM (#22425166)
    Panera Bread [panerabread.com] has had free wifi for years. You can use this page [panerabread.com] to find one near you. They typically don't hassle you even if you are camped out and not buying much.
  • just announced today that starbucks here in KY is closing some of their shops. they are closing 100 stores across the country because they opened too many of them (and the economy stinks).

    • starbucks here in KY is closing some of their shops
      I hope they're smart about it and close the ones in places like the Kroger stores and the Starbucks across from a Starbucks in Covington...

      Why am I going to buy coffee at a place I'm going to buy groceries at?
  • What I want to know, is: will the agreement between T-Mobile and AT&T allow the T-Mobile Hotspot@Home WiFi phone service to work?

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by all5n (1239664)
      Yes. One of the things that T-Mobile got as a concession for Starbucks breaking the contract early was protection for the T-Mobile UMA (HotSpot@Home) service to remain accessible to T-Mobile customers. T-Mobile wifi customers will still be able to access the wifi at starbucks for some period of years at no additional cost. Since AT&T provides many of the T1 connections to the starbucks locations, they can offer SBUX a sweeter deal than T-Mobile could. Going to the 2 hour pass would have been the off

  • Such a crock (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Bombula (670389) on Thursday February 14 2008, @03:30PM (#22425208)
    While T-Mobile is hurting

    Somebody call a whaaaaaambulance. For God's sake, the only reason T-Mobile's service had any operating costs was because they were trying to charge customers money. When you give away wi-fi for free, as most places are doing now - and not just coffee houses - it costs virtually nothing. What, $400 for a cheap PC and wireless router that any 15 year old employee knows how to run backwards and forwards?

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by corsec67 (627446)
      WRT-54Gl with suitable firmware. $60 per unit.
      (My favorite firmware is Tomato Firmware [polarcloud.com])
      Have them flashed and set up at a central point, and there would be no configuration at the deployment point.
  • ... we charge you outrageous prices for the WiFi and give you free coffee.

  • Now I may actually have a reason to care about Starbucks. I'm on AT&T DSL (it's slow, but the cable company here has not-too-liberal bandwidth caps/exorbitant over-your-limit fees, plus I don't want cable TV). The fact that DSL also gets me local dial-in numbers in quite a few places and occasional WiFi (typically McDonald's and Barnes&Noble) have been real nice additions. Adding Starbucks to the list helps even more.

    Of course, the bad for them is that getting more ubiquitious WiFi means I'm less

  • Dunn Bros is #1 in Minneapolis (Score:4, Informative)

    by Rick Richardson (87058) on Thursday February 14 2008, @03:44PM (#22425422) Homepage

    Fellow Minneapolis chain Dunn Brothers offers free Wi-Fi with *no strings attached* at its 90 locations.

    Caribou is 2nd (one hour free).

  • Liberal Conspiracy! (Score:4, Funny)

    by ArikTheRed (865776) on Thursday February 14 2008, @03:47PM (#22425458) Homepage
    First AT&T makes major deals with Apple, now with Starbucks? What's next - NPR, Prius and The Daily Show?

    ps: joke.

  • Is this right? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by blumpy (84889) on Thursday February 14 2008, @03:49PM (#22425490) Homepage
    "Up to two hours of free Wi-Fi service per day will be available for Starbucks Card holders"

    If I understand this correctly, if you go get yourself a card, fill it up with a minimal $5, you pretty much can get 2 hours of free wireless anytime?

    Sounds like a good deal, most of the time you really only need to check your mail or "look something up" quickly anyway... and with Starbucks being pretty much everywhere, this seems like a nice convenience. Great for people like me with an iPod Touch.

    • That's pretty much how I've interpreted all of the things I've read.....buy the cheapest card and get two years of free (2hrs per day) wi-fi at $tarbucks......not sure of the implications of having TWO cards.

      Layne

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by SQLGuru (980662)
        I know, replying to your own post is bad form, but I just thought of this.....

        Instead of buying a card, find someone who is done with their card (esp. if it has just a few cents on it) and get free wi-fi without paying anything......maybe start an after-market market for Starbucks cards.

        Layne

  • Didn't have a choice - everyone has it (Score:3, Interesting)

    by MooseTick (895855) on Thursday February 14 2008, @03:55PM (#22425590) Homepage
    Now many McDonalds, Krystals, Atlanta Bread Companys, Burger King, Denny's, Dunkin' Donuts, IHOP, Jack-in-the-Box, KFC, Subway, Taco Bell, Quiznos, and Wendy's offer free WIFI.

    'Bucks will start losing customers who want to surf and schmooze. I'm sure they especially don't want to lose that extra $6 cupcake sale when someone has been hanging around the store for an hour and starts to get hungry.
  • It's one month since I installed a Fonera router (http://www.fon.com/) in a pub. People does not connect. They just don't go to the place for WiFi. Most people have internet access at work and at home, accessing the internet even when relaxing in front of a coffee is actually nonsense.... well... hmmmm.... I shoulnd't be posting this on slashdot, right?
  • I see bars offering free WiFi to attract fantasy sports nuts, WiFi is becoming more and mainstream every day...soon everybody will be expected to offer it as service to their customers. That's the real news...WiFi has gone mainstream to the point that charging for it will cause people to choose one establishment over another...

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by LMacG (118321)
      Right, that's what it says:

      TFS: "indie coffeehouses and chains such as Caribou Coffee, Tully's ..."

    • Yeah, I don't think this Starbucks thing is going to pull me away from the Dunkin Donuts next door or the caribou coffee from down the street. At least till they get better coffee...

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by IANAAC (692242)

      And if anyone tries to charge, they should be hacked, or their establishment burnt to the ground.
      Or you could just chose to do business with a more wifi-friendly place, instead of being psychotic and thinking of physical damage.

      Sheesh.

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