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Windows Home Server Corrupts Files
Posted by
timothy
on Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:13 AM
from the handy-for-plausible-deniability dept.
from the handy-for-plausible-deniability dept.
crustymonkey points out a ComputerWorld article which says that "Microsoft Corp. has warned Windows Home Server users not to edit files stored on their backup systems with several of its programs, including Vista Photo Gallery and Office's OneNote and Outlook, as well as files generated by popular finance software such as Quicken and QuickBooks."
Crustymonkey asks Don't back up your files to Windows Home Server, as recommended by Microsoft themselves? I'm not exactly sure what the point is in having a home server if you can't back up files on it."
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Obvious Answer (Score:5, Insightful)
Profit
Re:Obvious Answer (Score:4, Funny)
"I'm not exactly what the point is in having a home server if you can't back up files on it."
1. go to store
2. buy MS open server
3. Install files
4. Back up files
5. ????????
6. PROFIT!
Parent
MOD THIS DOWN!!!!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Wait, I'll put this in a way that you mods can understand:
1. go to slashdot
2. find a story
3. find a comment on that story
4. post a tired, old, lame-ass joke for the 9 billionth time
5. ???????
6. GET MODDED UP!
Ok, I followed the silly meme, where's my +5 Funny?
Parent
Re:MOD THIS DOWN!!!!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:MOD THIS DOWN!!!!!! (Score:5, Funny)
That the GP got to "Score:5, Funny" says everything anyone ever need know about (a) the robustness of the Slashdot moderation system; and (b) the high level of abstraction inherent in the collective sense of humour of the Slashdot community (we've nigh-on perfected the art of meta-humour).
And as long as I can also get the odd "Score:5, Funny" with cheap puns and innuendo, I shall waste time here.
Parent
Re:MOD THIS DOWN!!!!!! (Score:4, Funny)
-mcgrew
* "funny" garners no karma. Karma whores don't do "funny". People who go for "funny" do it just to brighten someone's day. Now get off my lawn you miserable little humorless snot (hits AC in head with AC's own balls).
Parent
Re:Obvious Answer (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Yes, profit. Mod parent up. (Score:4, Interesting)
A large amount of Microsoft's profit, in my opinion, comes from selling unfinished software, and then getting money for "upgrades". Microsoft won't get money for the fix to this problem, but I think you will agree that Microsoft is the largest supplier of unfinished software, and making the whole world a beta tester is cheaper than selling a finished product.
Therefore, MOD PARENT UP.
I notice that people are inventing nonsense about this; the problem appears not to have anything to do with editing backups.
Parent
Re:Yes, profit. Mod parent up. (Score:4, Informative)
The purpose of WHS is not ONLY to be file server. That's one purpose, and as long as you don't edit the file on the server, you're ok.
Another purpose is to create automated remote backup of all computers on the network, basically in such a way that you can create a new image via a restore CD, but also in a way that doesn't duplicate files between images. You can also access individual files in the backup. It's like a hybrid image/file backup with duplicate file consolidation. It's pretty efficient.
Another purpose is a remote access gateway to allow you to log in via terminal services to any computer in your network.
Another purpose is to provide a web based remote access to your files.
WHS is a very useful product, and this is an unfortunate bug, but it doesn't mitigate its entire existence.
Parent
Vista users are safe (Score:5, Funny)
Sure they can! (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Fun with math - vs. Commodore 64 (Score:5, Funny)
Ok, 168 MB is 168*1024*1024 = 176,160,768 bytes.
A Commodore 64's floppy disk, the 1541 runs at 300 baud. So that's 176160768/300 = 587203 seconds for an equivalent copy. That's 9786 minutes, or 163.1 hours. That's 6.796 days.
The same copy will take Vista 131 years. That's 47815 days.
That means that a Commodore 64 w. 1541 drive is roughly 47815/6.796 = 7036 times faster than Windows Vista.
Now, for a human number. An average typist gets about 50-70 wpm according to wiki. [wikipedia.org] So we'll call the average 60wpm. Seems reasonable. That's 60*5 = 300 characters per minute. Since a C64 moves data at 300 characters per second, we can say that a human typist is 60 times slower than the Commodore 64. That means that a human typist is 7036/60 = 117 times faster than a Vista file copy.
Impressive!
Parent
One wonders...... (Score:5, Interesting)
A Good DVD Writer For Most People (Score:4, Informative)
As to Microsoft screwing up yet again, it's just funny. Very funny.
Think Allen has rubber chairs to throw around now?
Parent
Re:A Good DVD Writer For Most People (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:One wonders...... (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:3)
Scot
Ready to use boxes (Score:5, Informative)
Similar setup here, too.
In fact, running a Linux + Samba + SSH/SFTP/SCP + RAID ( + Optionally NFS ) seems the best solution available.
You can't suggest them to install and configure Debian all by themselves.
BUT
There are virtually hundred of "network enclosure" : Small empty external cases, with a 1Gbps ethernet and a small ARM chip running Linux+Samba+Apache, almost ready to use, you only need to buy disks and mount them in (several computer part shop even propose you to sell a pre-assembled such solution).
Linksys, D-Link and Netgear are a few of the constructor whose name jump to my mind right now, but there are virtually hundreds of them.
The best part is :
- These box have Linux pre-installed on their flash memory. So no difficult configuration is required for the average users. Maybe just help them to configure secure access and configure the router if they also want to have access to the files from outside home. The computer part shop often can do the hard-drive mounting and deliver a ready-to-use product.
- Almost any of those box runs Linux, so their firmware is modifiable and you can find several guides explaining how to run external software or even installing additional software into the firmware. MLDonkey [sf.net] is such an open source eD2K / Bittorrent / etc. client which is also precompiled for embed Linux.
Not only the enclosure is useful for average user, it may be useful for lazy power-users who don't want to assemble their own server or prefer silent and energy efficient servers.
- A lot of those boxes have USB2 "Host" connectors, so you can connect additional HDD to the server. But as it is Linux, a lot of different and interesting usage can be found be power users like plugins webcams, or use the box as a print server in addition to a file server.
So yes, you can't easily tell your friends to *install* Debian all by themselves, but you can get them to buy an enclosure with Linux pre-installed. (And if they upgrade their box to a newer one, you can recycle the old one into some fun project thanks to Linux' openness and available USB2 connectors).
Parent
Re:One wonders...... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:One wonders...... (Score:4, Informative)
This could potentially be the "my dog ate my homework" for the 21st century. "I did my homework, but the power went out before I could save it, and my backups were all corrupt!"
Parent
Re:One wonders...... (Score:5, Insightful)
The original parent comment was about something (an alternative) "point and click easy" like the WHS. Do you really expect someone who relies on the "I click enough buttons and it works so it must be right" model instead of the "i set it up correctly so it must work" model to actually know about things like VNC, SSH tunnels or a router?
I don't mean to dog you and I'm definately not trying to troll you, but we really are dealing with people doing things they really have no idea/clue about. I would probably suggest that they have no business doing it without investing a little more time and effort in learning something about it but they read the side of a box and think it is a good idea. Making them learn something isn't my call though, Microsoft seems to be good at making idiots feel smart. Hang around some of the novice windows users who think they are smart, you will see exactly what I'm talking about when one of them explains to you the difference between a BCC and CC when dealing with email and then tells you he found out because of a popup in office and vista or some shit like that. When you realize their first computer was a windows 95 or 98 box almost 10 years ago and they are just finding this out, you will understand their needs a little more.
If you don't know anyone like that, start doing repair work for random people. Put an add in the paper or something and do a couple dozen repairs out of your house. Or I can give you a number of other examples of the types of people we/you are dealing with (point and clickers). Most of them are fresh too. Like just recently, a customer who thought his CDROM was broke because he knocked his tower off the desktop and it wouldn't close all the way. So he decided to remove it, take it apart and oil the motors and gears and after putting it back in, when he started the computer up, it said "insert system disk". 9:30 at night, I get the call explaining every thing to me and attempted to trouble shoot is over the phone, I had him reconfirm the connections for the IDE cables on both the HD and CDROM. Then I had him disconnect the CDROM, Sure enough, the HD worked and the computer loaded. 10:15pm, I get another call from the same customer, it is doing it again. How am I supposed to know he plugged the CDROM that he tore apart and we determined was causing the problem back in after I hung up. 35 minutes of checking bios settings, rechecking the cables and troubleshooting later, he suggest putting a the XP system CD in the computer and starting it with that in it. I asked if he had another CDROM because last I worked on his system, he only had one. He told me he fixed the CDROM that we determined was causing the exact same problem an hour ago and put it back in. He refused to associate the same problem with the same device. And then when I told him the CDROM was bad, unplug it and see what happens, He insisted that he had fixed it (he took the CDROM apart again) and the door closed all the way now so nothing was wrong with it.
Finally, I got his wife on the phone and told her the story as I told you, she said if it is doing the same thing, then if I unplug the CDROM, the computer will start. I said that was the plan but I couldn't get her husband to try it because he claims he "fixed the CDROM" and "nothing was wrong with it because he fixed it. So she ended up unplugging the CDROM and sure enough, it worked sans the CDROM. She brought it in the next day, we swapped the drive out and all has been fine since. I asked her to make sure he didn't call me for support late at night again unless he was going to listen to what I had to say.
Parent
Correction (Score:5, Funny)
Microsoft will gladly sell you a one use un-convert license when you need to see the data.
Curious... (Score:5, Insightful)
Isn't part of the point of a backup that you DON'T edit the backup media?
I can look at this two ways... MS didn't test this enough because it didn't occur to them someone might do something so ridiculous...
OR...
Not only did MS create the misfeature that is editing backups, but they screwed it up too...
Am I still feeling charitable from the holiays? Hmm...
Re:Curious... (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Curious... (Score:5, Informative)
Here is the KB article http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/946676/en-us?spid=12624 [microsoft.com]
It too doesn't mention using WHS to backup but does say that you should backup the possible affected files before storing them on WHS.
Parent
Re:Curious... (Score:4, Informative)
The problem isn't actually anything to do with backups.
The problems is probably due to Windows Home Server file shares not catering for NTFS streams (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/941914 [microsoft.com]).
Parent
Sensationalist Headlines? Not this time... (Score:5, Insightful)
But for the first time ever, slashdot's title isn't sensationalist. Microsoft simply states, yeah, for no apparent reason, files are getting corrupt using our operating system.
Jeebus F'n H Chroist! You had one job to do, and you screwed it up royally.
It's one thing when some obscure feature doesn't work correctly. It's another thing when a fundamental operation of your software hasn't worked for A YEAR since it came out.
IT'S AN OPERATING SYSTEM. Your job is to interface the hardware with the user and software.
*sigh* Bring on the "my linux-distro of choice doesn't do that, that makes me right all along" comments.
Re: (Score:3)
This is version 1.0 people (Score:5, Funny)
WARNING! DO NOT CLICK LINK! (Score:4, Informative)
As the blank screen fails to load, an ad pops up. Then a "greeting page" appears on the blank page ("greetings from our advertisers")
Then I notice the "click here to ignore this greetings page and enter ComputerWorld, the world's worst IT magazine".
Of course I quickly hit the "back" button so I wouldn't be assaulted with a million ads and a paragreph of content-free lead-in text before "click here for next page".
Honestly, guys, can't you find a better link [pcworld.ca]? Oh shit, the only two that Google News shows is ComputerWorld and PC World.
Why is it that the very WORST sites on the internet are IT sites? It's embarrassing! And people wonder why, if you RTFM, "ewe muss bee knew hear". We KNOW BETTER! We know what is ready to assault us if we dare click a link to an IT site!
Recommended solution (Score:5, Funny)
"Make sure that you have a backup copy of any important program files before you store these files on a system that is running Windows Home Server."
In other words, use something else to backup the files first if you intend to backup them with Windows Home Server
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
And besides who in their right mind would use WHS for backups? That would be like using MSpaint to draw pictures.
Windows home server disappointing. (Score:3, Informative)
In this capacity, the problem would be with using WHS as a file server. I must say this is nail #2 in the grave of my disappointment with WHS. My first problem with it is that there is a bug in performance - reads are fine, but writing data to a WHS share is unacceptably slow. Some will claim it's Vista autotuning, or differential copy, or something else but it's demonstrably just piss-poor performance on WHS.
Overall the product is a good idea, it's just poorly implemented at present. If they fix this new bug and fix the performance issues, I'd actually be pretty happy with it.
Why is everything across the network "special?" (Score:5, Insightful)
MS-DOS and Windows users seem to take it for granted that a file that is across the network is accessed via different APIs, different user interfaces, and has generally different properties from files that are stored locally. In the MS-DOS days they were always mumbling about The Redirector. Why does a file need to be REdirected across the network? Why isn't it just directed, the way it would be directed to a disk volume or a floppy or what have you?
It isn't so long ago that most Windows programs couldn't even reference cross-network files in a straightforward way in a file open dialog. You first had to assign a "drive letter" and "map a network drive." (And, of course, all references to that file would break if you ever assigned the remote directory to a different drive letter).
And when they finally got around to fixing it in the OS, it only fixed it for new programs that were written to some new API. Existing programs, even things like Visual C++ utilities, continued to go through the mapping tapdance, because apparently the existing OS file dialog routines weren't updated to do things the new way.
The assumption that files across the network are totally differents sorts of thing from local files appeared to be so ingrained in the Windows culture that Windows people don't even understand why it is a criticism of Windows to mention this. They think it has to be that way, because, well, they're across the network. As if there were some physical property of 100-base-T cables that made them intrinsically different from SATA cables.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why is everything across the network "special?" (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't speak for MS-DOS (are there any MS-DOS users left?), in Windows you don't use a different API for a network files. Any differences are taken care of far below the application level.
different user interfaces,
Really? On my Windows machine, networked files show up in Windows Explorer just like local files. If anything, it's not different *enough*-- i.e. it would be nice to have a mark in the icon to tell me if a file is on a network drive, especially when I'm on unreliable wifi networks.
It isn't so long ago that most Windows programs couldn't even reference cross-network files in a straightforward way in a file open dialog. You first had to assign a "drive letter" and "map a network drive."
You never *had* to do that. Well, ok, maybe pre-95 versions of Windows. But Windows 95 would work just fine if you typed \\network\path into an Open dialog. I did that just a couple years ago at a hospital I was working at with some ancient machines still in use.
Of course you have the option to map a drive letter if you want, and there may be some buggy applications that didn't work unless they had a drive letter to work with, but you can't blame Microsoft for buggy third party apps.
The assumption that files across the network are totally differents sorts of thing from local files appeared to be so ingrained in the Windows culture that Windows people don't even understand why it is a criticism of Windows to mention this.
Maybe they just think you're crazy for "criticizing" Windows for something you basically made-up.
I'm not a huge Microsoft fan, but most of your post is just plain wrong. I know this is Slashdot and thus you were +5 Insightful, but please make some effort to at least be a little accurate next time you post. Let's reduce the amount of bullcrap here, not increase it.
Parent
Not really news (Score:4, Informative)
Example: http://cdslash.net/temp/images/datalost.png [cdslash.net]
Quite frustrating. I've yet to lose serious amounts of data so far, but I'm sure it'll happen.
It is situations like this... (Score:5, Insightful)
Which do well to explain the reason why, when a $1000 PC is faster than a $1,000,000 mainframe, that businesses still buy the mainframe. And then they stock the washrooms with single-ply toilet paper to cut costs.
Microsoft has made a lot of noise about being "Enterprise class" software, and having "Reliable" servers, but when things like this happen, it just goes to show that Microsoft won't ever be able to touch big iron:
The next time I hear anyone use the term "enterprise class" and Microsoft in the same sentence, I'm simply going to refer them to this bug. Totally unacceptable - even for a gaming OS.
Queue the next Apple commercial (Score:5, Funny)
PC Guy: Backing up my files.
AG: Wow. That's a lot of stuff - sure you can handle it all?
PC: Oh, sure. I'm using Vista Home Server. It allows me to back up my files by placing them securely in here.
AG: Whoa! What's the noise!?
PC: It's my backup appliance!
AG: Dude! That's a shredder!
PC: What!? Can't hear you!
AG:
Sharing was the focus of WHS, not backup. (Score:5, Informative)
You are editing a file that is saved directly to a shared folder on WHS, which WHS accepts and gives the A-OK signal to your software, then later has a problem writing the file, and tells you about it, with no chance of recovering the file at that time. Since this can happen after you have exited your software, you have no way of recovering the file.
The problem is not:
The third one is the trickiest. See, if you go to the current WHS Discover site [microsoft.com] (click Help and How-To's) you will see that the big thing is Remote Access, Media Sharing, and Computer Backup. This would lead people to believe that any other use, is not what it was meant for, and when something goes wrong, you should have known better.
But, one only needs to look back at previous pages for WHS to see that Sharing was a central feature [archive.org]. Yes, full sharing, not just Media Sharing. Even the Overview of that page focuses on sharing first, and backup (protection) was third. The first overview item was Sharing, and that is simply what this problem is about, shared folders. Either for your own use as a networked server, or to share with other users.
Now, if you go to Eric Bott's blog [zdnet.com], you will see the explanation that the largest factor is "a home server is under extreme load." Well, I'm sorry, but if the touted role, even at the beginning and not right now, was acting as a share folder to save your stuff to, then by damn it better do that. If the server gets loaded down, it should not pretend it got the file and tell you later that it didn't, it should just either not respond (and your software would have to let you know it couldn't do it) or it should give an error response (your software's problem now).
Honestly, this product was marketed as a home server for storing and sharing your files, with acting as a backup server making 3rd on the list of features. Now, they want to change that and say that it is for backup first, file sharing from special locations and under special conditions, and not really for file storage.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
In the *nix world, it is common that one can sit down at *any* machine in the network, log on and one's desktop/files, etc are just the same (assuming the same OS). This has never been true in the MS world. MS requires you to have *your computer* and to always use *your computer* if you want to have any semblance of a familiar desktop/files. Even with server stored profiles, the files ar
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
From Microsoft's site:
When you use certain programs to edit files on a home computer that uses Windows Home Server, the files may become corrupted when you save them to the home server.
Programs affected: Windows Vista Photo Gallery, Windows Live Photo Gallery, Microsoft Office OneNote 2007, Microsoft Office OneNote 2003, Microsoft Office Outlook 2007, Microsoft Money 2007, and SyncToy 2.0 Beta. Additionally, there have been customer reports of issues with Torrent applications, with Intuit Quicken, and with QuickBooks program files. Our support team is currently trying to reproduce these issues in our labs.
Finally, they say:
This issue may occur because of a recently discovered problem with Windows Home Server shared folders and with certain programs.
Fraggin' scary.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:What happened to the Best Free Games Story? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, this is not true.
This comes from a highly dishonest "study" by Kellermann. The only "use" counted in the study was to kill someone, so (for example) holding an attacker at gun point until the police show up was not counted as a "use" of a gun. There were other major flaws too.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgaga.html [guncite.com]
A better study is the Kleck study.
http://www.gunci [guncite.com]
Re:What happened to the Best Free Games Story? (Score:5, Informative)
False conclusion based on faulty data sampling.
A statistic does not get created unless there is a report. Cases where someone gets shot almost always generate a report. Cases where the homeowner's possession of a gun thwarts the crime and nobody gets shot are less likely to be reported.
Guns in the home are not high on the list of dangerous objects for average Americans. Check it out. The fact that drug dealers, thieves, and gang members often shoot their family members and 'friends' is used to make it sound like average people are not capable of defending themselves without endangering their families. It is a false impression intentionally created by lumping repeat criminal offenders in with the general population's statistics in these cases.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Are you one of those nuts that thinks guns have a mind of their own, and "could go off at any time"?
Re:Lies, damned lies, and statistics. (Score:5, Funny)
I have a few hand guns. Most are locked up safely. I have no kids so I keep on in a desk next to my bed, ready to be loaded. Just slide in the clip, and I'm good to go. We have had a few breakins lately in my area. If you break in, I will not be holding you for the police. I am in my right to kill, and I will kill. To hold at gunpoint is to risk that you might have a gun, or a friend I did not notice. It is stupid and very unsafe. I have a wife to protect, and property to protect. I really think anyone who holds at gunpoint had no intent of using the weapon in the first place. This is bad gun ownership.
You should only draw your weapon when you have identified a target and intend to fire on it. Hesitation might get you killed. The only exception might be in the case of military and police.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Although the WHS share looks like a standard windows share, it isn't. Files on a WHS share might be moved to another physical partition (balancing storage), or/and replaced with a NTFS link, if it is a duplicate. Basically you should not edit anything on the WHS share, only copy files to the WHS share.
I not sure how they can 'solve' this one, except by not exposing WHS shares in this way.