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Long-lived Mars Rovers to Keep on Roving

Posted by Zonk on Sat Oct 20, 2007 01:28 PM
from the getting-to-be-nerd-mascots dept.
An anonymous reader writes with a link to a ComputerWorld article about the ongoing saga of the Martian rovers. They've overcome amazing obstacles and they show no signs of shutting down any time soon. "'After more than three and a half years, Spirit and Opportunity are showing some signs of aging, but they are in good health and capable of conducting great science,' John Callas, rover project manager at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory said in a statement. Since landing, the rovers have had to surmount a host of technical issues. Just a few weeks after landing, the Spirit rover had an out-of-memory problem that almost ended its mission before it began, but scientists were able to get the rover back into operation. In April 2004, both needed software updates to correct problems and improve their performance."
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  • by rah1420 (234198) <rah1420@gmail.com> on Saturday October 20 2007, @01:30PM (#21056851)
    should read the story of these two amazing machines. There's a lot that's wrong with NASA but there's so much that's right, too -- and this is proof positive.

    • by jhines (82154) <john@jhines.org> on Saturday October 20 2007, @01:43PM (#21056963) Homepage
      in a spectacular fashion. Either extreme, it is rare that a mission is routine.
      • by IceD'Bear (829534) on Saturday October 20 2007, @02:07PM (#21057155)
        It just seem so to you, because you hear only of the spectacular missions. Routine missions aren't really interesting news.
        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          So which of the missions to other planets is the "routine" one?
              • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

                Hearing plenty about them does not mean they weren't/aren't routine, the media is untrustworthy in that respect. Also, you've probably heard a great deal about them, and not about Magellan, mostly because they produce tons of sexy pictures - and Magellan didn't.
      • And what else would we want from an AMERICAN space agency? Yeeeeee-haw! [shoots guns in air and rides off into sunset]
    • by MonorailCat (1104823) on Saturday October 20 2007, @01:47PM (#21056999)
      It's really nice to see a story of good engineering getting some play. It seems whenever engineering is in the news it involves a building collapse or something dreadful like that.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        The thing is that the engineers predicted that they would fail years ago. A few months into the mission, I remember that there was a significant amount of speculation over why the things hadn't failed, because it was confusing the hell out of the guys who built it.

        I'm a bit curious if the rovers are actually doing anything all that useful at the moment... after all, they move at a painfully slow rate, and the landscape isn't all that varied in the areas they're in.
        • by ColdWetDog (752185) on Saturday October 20 2007, @02:38PM (#21057373) Homepage

          I'm a bit curious if the rovers are actually doing anything all that useful at the moment... after all, they move at a painfully slow rate, and the landscape isn't all that varied in the areas they're in.

          Look around the NASA / JPL sites (links not provided, I'm lazy and cranky besides Google needs the ad revenue). Lots of good, albeit plodding research. Much of this is just data collection - it will take years of analyzing the data and cross referencing it with other Mars probes and historical research but just sitting there and acting as a Martian weather buoy yields enormously important information.

          We know so little of anything extra terrestrial that even low hanging fruit is satisfying.

        • The thing is that the engineers predicted that they would fail years ago.

          That's the fun part of being an engineer - you get booed when things fail short of their predicted lifetime. But when you screw up your predictions the other way and underestimate the lifetime... suddenly, you are a hero. No wonder engineers are inclined to be conservative.
           
           

          I'm a bit curious if the rovers are actually doing anything all that useful at the moment... after all, they move at a painfully slow rate, and the landscape isn't all that varied in the areas they're in.

          Welcome to the world of real science - where data collection takes years, and data analysis takes decades. It's also a world most activities are painfully slow and/or boring and things don't happen at any great rate, and that simply isn't very exciting.
           
          This isn't Mythbusters where everything is dumbed down, sexed up, and edited to a pace suitable for the short attention span of the post-MTV generation.
            • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

              It would be more advantageous to have such a rover - it would also cost at least an order of magnitude more (and probably a great deal more than that), and may or may not work. Also, you have to keep in mind that when they built this set, they only expected them to last a couple of weeks because of dust on the solar panels. They've been lucky in that respect, very lucky.

              You also have to keep in mind that topography isn't the issue, geology is. In that respect, even with the small distances they'v
        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          Completely shooting from the hip (hey, it's Slashdot), I'd venture a guess that in making failure estimates, engineers have to assume close-to-worst case scenarios. The less we know about an environment (or, the more random it is), the more likely that a worst case scenario will be very different from the actual conditions encountered.

          So if some critical assumptions that cascade through longevity calculations turn out to be better than assumed, it makes sense that we'd see dramatically longer actual li
    • and here IS that story [amazon.com]; very good it is, too. I defy anyone not to be moved by the scenes at JPL when the first pictures from from Eagle crater came down from Opportunity. I get a little bit choked up myself every time I see it :)
      • I see you've never had your scrotum pinched between the wheels of... uhh, never mind... I didn't say that. Nope, neither have I...
      • Wrong (Score:3, Informative)

        Okay, so it didn't turn out as exciting as dozens of Hollywood movies would have you believe. The reason the rovers, the Viking probes... hell, every space mission that's landed somewhere... is important is because xenogeology needs up-close and personal data, rather than just spectrometer readings.

        Think about all the stuff we don't know about every other planet out there - we can figure out the mass from watching things orbit it, and we can figure out the composition of the surface... but what about tw

  • made in...? (Score:5, Funny)

    by bwy (726112) on Saturday October 20 2007, @01:39PM (#21056923)
    OK.... are we SURE that these things weren't made in Japan?

    Cause they're acting more like a Honda than a GM at this point.
  • by jcr (53032) <jcr@mac.STRAWcom minus berry> on Saturday October 20 2007, @01:42PM (#21056953) Journal
    How long would a rover that was actually designed to last for three years keep on working?

    -jcr

    • Re:Just think.. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by no_pets (881013) on Saturday October 20 2007, @01:46PM (#21056991)
      Probably about a month and a half. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.
    • If its one thing I've learned from Star Trek is to multiply all your time related estimates by a factor of 4. (IE. Under Promise and Over Deliver)
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Such a rover would be so big and heavy, it would never make it to mars. In order to make sure the rover will last for a couple of months given everything that could possibly go wrong, it has to be so over engineered, that odds are it will last many years.

      Or to put it in numbers, a 99.99% chance of surviving for 3 months, could easily translate into a 50% chance of lasting 5 years.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      Not [wikipedia.org] so [wikipedia.org] long [wikipedia.org]. As another poster mentioned, most planetary missions are spectacular either in success or failure.
    • If they were designed to break, then the warranty period + x where x is long enough that most will pass warranty and as short as possible without customers showing up with torches and pitchforks. If they were designed to not break... well, probably as long as the current rovers.
  • Oh, if only we could send Karl to join his roving brethren on Mars...
  • Repeatable? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by thesupermikey (220055) on Saturday October 20 2007, @01:50PM (#21057021) Homepage Journal
    We have been seeing articles like this for 3 years now. That is great, the more positive talk about a NASA project the better.

    The thing that always seems to be missing is: why did these two robots continue to work so well, and, how do we go about repeating their success?

    • Aliens. Their superior Martian technology is the only reasonable explanation for the rover's continued success.
      • Mods are in a really mood this morning. Who would have thought that somebody on Slashdot would be hung over from Friday night?
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      The thing that always seems to be missing is: why did these two robots continue to work so well, and, how do we go about repeating their success?

      Lack of human safety issues and KISS [wikipedia.org].
    • Which makes maintenance a lot more easier, as you only have to deal with one type of system, one type of hardware, etc. That is only one reason, but it is a big one. When you have to juggle two separate types of hardware configs at this distance, two software setups, it gets a lot more complex.
    • Re:Repeatable? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Kjella (173770) on Saturday October 20 2007, @02:19PM (#21057247) Homepage
      They continue to work so well because they got power, that was the 3mo limit where it was assumed the solar panels would be too clogged up to function. No, it's not as easy as having a windshield wiper. They figured they'd rather get more out of them in three months, and maybe they'd get lucky - which they did. You have to admit that over these three years it hasn't been very many scientific accomplishments they didn't do in the first three months, it's more like "hey, they survived this winter too" or "hey, they got to crater X, which is just like the last crater".

      As for repeating the success, first of all you can't. Now we know you can keep continous solar power working on Mars, and that'll be the expectation from now on. Secondly, you need some luck - they're way past their design life and probably the only reason they're working is because it's massively overengineered with everyone thinking "like hell if it'll be our part that kills it after a week". I'm not sure how good setting a three year design life would help, because I figure they're already using pretty much the best they got. It's not like the cost of metal piece on the rover is anywhere near significant compared to the cost of getting it to Mars.
      • Re:Repeatable? (Score:4, Informative)

        by Tablizer (95088) on Saturday October 20 2007, @02:37PM (#21057367) Homepage Journal
        You have to admit that over these three years it hasn't been very many scientific accomplishments they didn't do in the first three months

        I think its too early to say that. They still don't know when the water was there, how long, and how much. That's gonna take a lot of time-consuming study of a lot of details. Scientists are still discovering new things in Viking data.

        Now we know you can keep continous solar power working on Mars, and that'll be the expectation from now on.

        The whirlwind effect is kind of hit and miss, though. A device that depends on solar power may have many months of down-time if a whirlwind fails to show up. And as we've learned, big dust storms risk freezing the electronics to death. Thus, solar is still risky.

        I figure they're already using pretty much the best they got.

        I've heard there are known spots that lack redundancy on the rovers. A more expensive mission could potentially have more areas of redundancy.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        Now we know you can keep continous solar power working on Mars, and that'll be the expectation from now on

        Except the next rover [nasa.gov] will use a radio isotope power system [nasa.gov]. No Solar Panels on this thing.

        It's also a behemoth, and doesn't use airbags to land.
    • The thing that always seems to be missing is: why did these two robots continue to work so well, and, how do we go about repeating their success?

      You spend a lot of money overdesigning and overtesting every individual component - then you get lucky.
  • by Puff of Logic (895805) on Saturday October 20 2007, @01:55PM (#21057067)

    They've overcome amazing obstacles and they show no signs of shutting down any time soon.
    Oh, nice work! That's a sentence that's all but guaranteed to result in a story next week about both rovers spontaneously combusting! Remember, Zonk, loose lips cause catastrophic technical failures!

    sheesh.
  • agreed (Score:2, Insightful)

    These are amazing little guys. It's still a shame that we don't more things like this. It's terrible that we spend trillions of dollars to build militarys and almost zero on things like this which expand our knowledge for the betterment of us all. I am sure there would lines around planet of people who would be happy to go on the mission to exchange the parts on these critters. Heck, I am sure there would be a ton of people who would love to go even if there was a 80% chance it would be a one way trip. We c
  • advertisements (Score:3, Insightful)

    by phrostie (121428) on Saturday October 20 2007, @02:24PM (#21057279)
    i'm really surprised we haven't seen advertisements on TV for the companies and subcontractors that helped make all the components.

    talk about some serious bragging rights!

  • by NoSpamPlease (1145157) on Saturday October 20 2007, @02:48PM (#21057447)

    ...but scientists were able to...
    Just a pet peeve of mine. No scientists were involved in rescuing the rovers. Engineers did all the work, and deserve all the credit for the immense success and longer duration of this mission. Scientists deserve the credit for the science that we get from them. The success of the rovers depends entirely on Engineers.
  • Ol' Mars Rover, dem Ol' Mars Rovers
    They jus' keeps scoopin', surveyin', and a viewin'
    They jus' keeps on rollin', keeps on rollin' along
    • by Tablizer (95088) on Saturday October 20 2007, @03:09PM (#21057585) Homepage Journal
      They jus' keeps scoopin',

      They don't have scoopers, by the way, at least not in the Viking sense. They take the instruments to the soil instead of bring the soil to the instruments.

      However, they can and do use their wheels to dig small trenches in order to analyze deeper soil. They do this by holding 5 wheels mostly still and move the 6th wheel.

      It is a remarkably compact yet flexible way to get the most out of existing hardware.

      Spirit cannot do this well anymore because of one stuck wheel. However, by dragging it around, it has become a happenstance "auto-trencher" and because of it they've stumbled upon some soil with high salt content underneath the visible layer that many scientists think is an important clue to the continuing water study (although the pieces to the puzzle still have yet to be all fit together). Now they regularly do spectral analysis on the bum-wheel trenches to see what's below the visible layer.
               
  • This project must have had a hundred million managers and task teams!
    Seriously!
  • by dpilot (134227) on Saturday October 20 2007, @03:44PM (#21057823) Homepage Journal
    A talk being given by one of the geologists (Jim Bell) on the Spirit/Opportunity teams. (He was also selling and signing the book of the same name.) A few little tidbits from the talk...

    One of the rovers (Spirit?) has blown a motor on a front wheel. As a result, it's normal mode of travel is now backwards. Also as a result, it tends to drag a groove in the Martian soil. In a recent transit, they were taking photographs of where they'd been and realized that the dragging wheel had exposed a different layer of soil, significantly different from the surface layer. Had the wheel not been dragging, they never would have discovered this.

    Choosing a landing site is a tug-of-war between the engineers and geologists. The engineers want to land someplace safe, so they can make it in one piece and functional. The geologists want to land someplace interesting. Usually "interesting" and "safe" are opposites. It's a compromise.

    Likewise, choosing what to look at is a compromise between safety and interesting. They've recently taken one of the rovers (Opportunity?) into a crater, realizing that they may not be able to get it out. But they've done all of the doable stuff nearby, the crater is compellingly interesting, and if they don't make it out, it's been a good run, and there's more to do in the crater.

    The rovers are really slow. You may hear it, but it doesn't hit home until you've seen a visual demonstration of how slow those things are.

    The rovers had been "wintering over," and they were worried about them getting enough sunlight to keep from getting too cold. While the Jim Bell was on the road for this book tour, and before the engagement I was at, they'd reacquired contact.

    During the early days of the mission, the scientists were on Martian time, living 27 hour days. After the first few weeks, they settled out procedures and policies to allow them to go back on Earth time.
  • by gelfling (6534) on Saturday October 20 2007, @04:11PM (#21058017) Homepage Journal
    Because a private company would have sucked their profit out a long time ago and shut the whole thing down before it became interesting or enlightening or even heroic.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      Seriously, this got modded up? Really?

      A private company would kept them going to milk as much value out of the rovers as possible and to raise their chances of winning the bid for the next project.
    • by Kjella (173770) on Sunday October 21 2007, @07:13AM (#21062209) Homepage
      If you mean commercialization as in "Let's disband NASA and wait for private enterprise" then yes. If you mean as in "Let NASA push the frontiers, but try to make commercial ventures follow" then I disagree. Even though the government doesn't need to have a direct profit, there's very rarely money to do something just for the hell of it. Most of the time, it's to generate new technlogy, improve education or knowledge in a science, create a better understanding of our own culture or history and so on. Sure the Apollo program did a lot to improve ground-based science and technology, but I imagine over time it'll be less and less relevant to surface-dwellers and only relevant to space travel. If we can't find ways to make it profitable, if space travel is a constant money sink forever then it will be nothing more than the odd scientific expedition. So I'd say it's very important, but you can't put the cart in front of the horse - there must be something commercializable to begin with.
      • Space exploration would then have to tow the mark vis a vis an acceptable ROI. What is a good ROI for the Hubble or sending satellites to comets? I'm guessing it's zero. Unless you're talking about geomapping, climate studies, telecommunications, all that near earth stuff, the 'return' on space is nil. And I don't have a problem with either accepting that it's nil, or giving up on it because it's nil. Let's just be clear that's what our intentions are. BTW I am firmly convinced that when the Shuttle program
    • by Dutch Gun (899105) on Saturday October 20 2007, @04:41PM (#21058223)
      Space exploration isn't just about science or nationalism. It's also about humanity and it's desire for exploration. What's the point of learning all about the cosmos unless we can somehow put it to use for humanity? And part of that science is the effect of space travel and other-world habitation on humans. Eventually, humanity will be living out in space, and we will be better and richer for it.

      I consider that a fine investment of my tax dollars.