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FAA Gets a Big-Screen Touch Table

Posted by kdawson on Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:31 PM
from the every-situation-room-needs-one dept.
Displays Toys United States
Matt writes "Northrop Grumman, best known for missile systems and other military gear, has for years been selling the TouchTable as part of what it calls an ' integrated collaboration environment.' They delivered their TouchTable to the US Federal Aviation Administration last month and will showcase their technologies next week at a defense conference in London. There are two versions of the TouchTable; one with an 84-inch screen (1600x1200 resolution), the other with a 45-inch screen (1920x1080 resolution). Moving a hand across the surface pans the display' two fingers moving apart zooms it out; and two fingers moving together zooms it in. This simple interface allows users easily to change a view from miles above the Earth to a detailed layout of a single city block."
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  • Sounds like an Iphone? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by blantonl (784786) on Saturday September 08 2007, @12:33PM (#20521757) Homepage
    Sounds to me like a massive iPhone. I wonder if any patents were violated with this thing?
    • It uses a projector to put the image on the table.

      Seems kind of backwards to me but I bet it's cheaper than getting an LCD of that size. Only similarity to the iPhone seems to be the way you use touch to navigate, but ideas like that have been floating around for years now.

    • Sounds to me like a massive iPhone. I wonder if any patents were violated with this thing?
      Possibly, but only by Apple. Table-top multi-touch interfaces have been around long before the iphone. E.g. see this video [ted.com].
      • I have wanted one of these table top computer displays since I saw Aliens in 1986. When the marines retreat back to the living quarters after they got beat up in the cooling towers they reviewed the building blueprints on a table top display like this. I was a draftsman back then and I thought that was the coolest display I had ever seen but then a 286 was cutting edge!
    • Anyone who has ever operated a Sony camcorder understands the fundamental design flaw with the military Touch Table. Constantly touching the screen with your hands smudges the screen. Seeing the streaks of grease and the occasion bits of dirt is distracting. In a real-time battle scenario, I would not want to be distracted.

      The Touch Table should be modified so that external sensors can detect the motion of the hand about 1 foot away from the screen. Those sensors would then translate the motion into z

      • Or, as Maddox puts it [thebestpag...iverse.net]:

        [stupid lameness filter stupid]iPhone ___ Nokia E70
        Screen turns into a smudgy
        piece of shit after a few ----------Yes _______ No
        minutes of use:

        (Formatting fun!)
  • Google Earth + Touch Screen + Plasma = How many billion? Brilliant.
    • Its innovative...
      ...because its horizontal.
      • A real technological breakthrough would be to find a replacement for the FAA.

        Which, due to the incredible amount of crap they handle, would be just as bloated as the FAA. I give it -6 months.
  • Shouldn't the zoom go the other way, as if you're stretching or shrinking the image?
    • Shouldn't the zoom go the other way, as if you're stretching or shrinking the image?

      Fingers apart is widening the rectangle of terrain being viewed, fingers together is reducing the rectangle of terrain.

      • Shouldn't the zoom go the other way, as if you're stretching or shrinking the image?

        Fingers apart is widening the rectangle of terrain being viewed, fingers together is reducing the rectangle of terrain.
        Exactly. The blurb indicates the opposite. Apart zooms out, together zooms in.

        • Methinks someone was not paying attention to Grover on Sesame Street: "Near! ... (bounce, bounce, bounce)... Far!"

          Fingers apart == far == zoom out, fingers together == near == zoom in. If you drew an imaginary rectangle over the physical location being viewed, zooming out would make the rectangle bigger (widening as the GP poster phrased it), and zooming in would make the rectangle smaller over the actual physical location (narrowing). Pretty darn intuitive, if you ask me.

    • Re:Counter-intuitive zoom? (Score:4, Informative)

      by Hennell (1005107) on Saturday September 08 2007, @12:53PM (#20521953) Homepage
      Video on their website [touchtable.com] seems to show it better.
    • Its called a 'user selectable property' most software has this capability.

    • Shouldn't the zoom go the other way, as if you're stretching or shrinking the image?

      I was looking to mod the right answer, but didn't see it, so here:
      The summary is misleading. Like other multitouch devices, this one zooms in when you pull your fingers apart, and vice versa.

      Why do they do it this way? there are comments on this page that bringing your fingers together should zoom in. That is an abstract, thought-experiment approach that doesn't include an essential sense: proprioception. [wikipedia.org]

      When you pull your fingers apart, you are pulling. To trick your visual processing to work with yo

    • It's pretty self-evident to anyone that has used Google maps or Safari on an iPhone for 2 seconds that it's fingers out to zoom in and fingers in to zoom out. Your fingers are moving the points closer together (fingers in == zooming out) or further apart (fingers out == zooming in).

  • Interface Design (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Dun Malg (230075) on Saturday September 08 2007, @12:38PM (#20521807) Homepage

    two fingers moving apart zooms it out; and two fingers moving together zooms it in
    This strikes me as counterintuitive. Perhaps actual testing proved this was the best way, but it seems to me that it's exactly backwards. If you wanted to zoom out, would it not be more logical to place two fingers on two points on the map (say) six inches apart, then have the map zoom out as you "dragged" the two points closer together, and vice-versa?
    • "two fingers moving apart zooms it out; and two fingers moving together zooms it in"

      This strikes me as counterintuitive. Perhaps actual testing proved this was the best way, but it seems to me that it's exactly backwards. If you wanted to zoom out, would it not be more logical to place two fingers on two points on the map (say) six inches apart, then have the map zoom out as you "dragged" the two points closer together, and vice-versa?

      Disclaimer, I'm a software developer who has done graphics, perha

      • Re:Interface Design (Score:4, Informative)

        by Dun Malg (230075) on Saturday September 08 2007, @01:00PM (#20522001) Homepage

        Moving the fingers apart to zoom out makes sense to me, you are enlarging the piece of the world/map to be displayed on the display.
        Enlarging a small piece of the visible map to take up more screen space is usually considered zooming in.

        • As I mentioned in my reply to your post here [slashdot.org] your mental model isn't quite right. The screen space is constant, the amount of the map you display varies. If the map has a constant "physical" size, then zooming in shows less of the map not more. Zooming out, in turn, shows more of the map, in reduced detail.

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Animaether (411575)
            Their mental model may be based on this simple notion. Take a balloon with a print on it, like a logo. Don't inflate it, just cut the part with the print on it out. Find a small opening somewhere in your house to view this print through. Now take the piece between two fingers, and stretch it apart. What you see through that small opening is the print getting enlarged. The more you stretch, the bigger the tiny detail in the print becomes. This is akin to zooming in.

            Put differently, and within the devi

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by Dolphinzilla (199489)
          I've actually used this touch table and it works exactly like you want, if you rotate your two fingers while pulling them apart it will zoom AND rotate - if you just plant your fingers and rotate them about an imaginary point between your fingers the display will rotate about that point - the interface is very intuitive and easy to master in seconds
    • It seems right to me. Move your fingers together to "lock-in" on a location, and spread them apart to zoom-out. Moving closer to look closer, moving apart to get a larger view of the picture. Seems about right to me.
    • It's called the goatse interface. Using two hands two move the point of interest apart enables a closer look.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by tyrione (134248)
      Or from the following notion:

      You have a Cupboard before you. You are at armslength (your hands are close together with each one holding a cupboard door handle) from the cupboard doors. As you open the doors your arms extend to the left and right and you step forward to look inside the cupboard and at the contents of what lies within.

      You don't close a cupboard and get closer to it. You pull away and your arms return to their closed door position.

      • Oh they used cupboard, well, whatever floats their boat. Personally (and rather unfortunately), I find the goatse analogy that I just mentioned easier to remember.

        Also, just imagine the possibilities, an interactive goatse as screensaver! I should stop now ruining everybody's day, shouldn't I ;) Sorry!

      • Its an issue of abstraction. Moving fingers apart to "open" something is different from "zooming" something.

        Its the same as the difference between a scrollbar and a "hand" for dragging. If you use the hand option in Adobe reader or an image editor, clicking and dragging should move the image around, much like on Google maps. If you use a scroll bar, clicking and moving moves the image in the opposite direction of movement. Both are correct.

        In the case of zooming with fingers, I agree with the GP -- when

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by th77 (515478)
      The video in TFA clearly shows people moving their fingers apart to zoom in, and together to zoom out. The article got it wrong. In fact, it looks like that part of the article is from a press release, so that would mean than NG got their own damn system wrong. Idiots.

    • Re:Interface Design (Score:5, Informative)

      by streak (23336) on Saturday September 08 2007, @06:21PM (#20524113) Journal
      Being a developer of the touchtable, I can tell you that the article is backwards.
      You spread your fingers to zoom in, and move them together to zoom out.
  • Wanna bet that the TouchTable is infringing on at least a dozen patens?

  • Resolution (Score:5, Funny)

    by russlar (1122455) on Saturday September 08 2007, @12:42PM (#20521857)

    one with an 84-inch screen (1600x1200 resolution)
    those are some big-assed pixels.
    • Big assed pixels for your big-assed coffee table computer [youtube.com].

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by AaxelB (1034884)
      This is very true, and it also seems slightly ridiculous that the 84" table has a lower resolution than the 45".

      I can see why, though, after looking around a bit. On such a large table, if you're collaborating, you want to be able to see and read what's going on on the other side of the table. If it were more standard-sized pixels, a lot of people couldn't tell for the life of them what their comrade on the other side of the table is pointing at. Granted, ideally we'd have high (good-looking) resolution an
    • Speaking of which, I wonder what the largest pixel in the world is.

      I couldn't find anything even when Googling it [google.com].

        • Well, quite obviously, it is funny because you used "big-assed" in your post (which, incidentally, Firefox would prefer I changed to big-ashed, which is only mildly funny). To repeat, the original post was funny because each pixel has two oversized muffins... Those pixels aren't one-cheeked, they are, in fact, badonkadonk pixels.

  • Anyone that has seen any of those "TED" videos knows the multitouch screen isn't an Apple innovation.
  • It will be interesting to see if which came first - the FAA touch table or Microsoft's desktop computer.

    God I hope it was the FAA touch table. It would be too funny to see MS get blown out of the water after their big splash with that thing.

    • Microsoft Surface (Score:4, Informative)

      by westlake (615356) on Saturday September 08 2007, @02:23PM (#20522633)
      It will be interesting to see if which came first - the FAA touch table or Microsoft's desktop computer. God I hope it was the FAA touch table. It would be too funny to see MS get blown out of the water after their big splash with that thing.

      Reading the fine article:

      Pressure sensitive surface allows multiple methods of information [newlaunches.com]

      Microsoft's Surface uses cameras to track input. The actual tabletop is nothing more than an ordinary acrylic panel used as a rear projection screen.

      It should be easy to clean and difficult to break, scratch or stain.

      The technology allows non-digital objects to be used as input devices. In one example, a normal paint brush was used to create a digital painting in the software. [In] using cameras for input, the system does not rely on [the] properties required of conventional touchscreen or touchpad devices such as the capacitance, electrical resistance, or temperature of the tool [being] used. Microsoft Surface [wikipedia.org]

      Surface can sense and interact with "domino" tagged objects, like a digital camera. What lurks below Micosoft's Surface [arstechnica.com]

      The Grumman maxes out at 1600x1200 for an 84" display. To my mind, that seems a little disappointing for a military-grade tactical display.

      Surface at 1280x960 for a 30" display.

      • Individual OSS developers can't. It's a hardware patent so it's globally valid. OSS is the only people who get blown out of the water.

        I like Microsoft's hardware solution - low-tech rear projection, and dirt cheap IR cameras for tracking.

  • Is MS licensing Grumman on this one? Who owns the patents on this sort of system? In a litigious age where the entire industry for force feedback joysticks for gaming collapsed over IP issues, who owns the IP becomes a critical issue.

    If the future really is a big ass table [youtube.com], then the question of who owns the rights to license that future are going to be a big deal.

    Can anyone help me find the relevant filings on this technology? Is there a cross-licensing agreement between Grumman and MS?

    This is actuall

    • Microsoft's was only a demo / prototype too. Northrup-Grumman's is being delivered commercially.

      And NG is going to have filed patents. Guaranteed. I just hope their filings pre-date Microsoft's.

      • You know, though I dislike MS, I honestly don't care who filed first, so long as a bunch of litigation doesn't sink another piece of innovative, if superfluous, technology.

        (BTW, part of the process of filing a patent is establishing "proof of concept [wikipedia.org]." For technologies such as this, that usually means physically producing at least a scripted demonstration model before you can even complete your application. A true prototype is often far in excess of what is needed to file, though, and you certainly don't ne
    • Couldn't answer, but I will say this - I work for NGC...at the HQ facility where we created and showcase this technology...along with a wide range of other interactive information and intelligence fusion systems...and we have been marketing and selling touchtable products and services for years. DoD uses our system for a wide range of applications...and I also wondered what was up when I saw the MS announcement earlier in the year. Fortunately, we have several hundred lawyers...so no worries.
      • DoD uses our system for a wide range of applications...

        The main application is looking just as cool as in the movies! Seriously, this technology is wicked! I'd want to be some badass DoD employee pinpointing things on interactive displays. Preferably on transparent vertical screens, like in that james bond movie. And some others, but I forgot the names.

        Also, this is one of the places where you wonder how it can be patented. I mean, this is no revolution, it is a development that has just been waiting to

  • Finally, and interface I can play Black and White with.

    Think about it.
  • It's made by Northrup Grummen, which means it's much like the Microsoft one, but continues even more more proprietary, but antiquated parts and software, and costs about 100 times more.
    • It's made by Northrup Grummen, which means it's much like the Microsoft one, but continues even more more proprietary, but antiquated parts and software, and costs about 100 times more.

      A tabletop display will take a lot of physical abuse. Spills, cigarette burns. MS Surface uses rear projection and IR cameras to track position and movement. Simple, reliable, and cheap.

    • But it can survive a near miss by a tactical nuclear weapon.
  • I think Broderbund has first dibs on that with their reflective visionary cauldron thing.

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