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FlipStart to Replace Your Laptop?

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Wed Mar 07, 2007 01:17 PM
from the smaller-is-better dept.
Handhelds Hardware Technology
WED Fan writes "Paul Allen has a new hardware venture, smaller than a laptop, larger than a blackberry. According to the Seattle P-I, the vision is to replace the laptop for most everyday use, such as office applications, email, and web surfing. 'Really, FlipStart gives you everything that your laptop does [...] We're not promoting the idea that you would do CAD design on it, but for Office applications and most of what people do with their laptops, it's great.' But at a $2000 price tag, this could be a little bit out of the range of many users. The product will launch on FlipStart.com in the not to distant future."
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[+] Mobile: How Small a PC Is Too Small? 324 comments
Banner~! recommends an article in IBTimes on the search for the ideal size for an ultraportable computer. One device mentioned is Paul Allen's FlipStart, discussed here recently. After watching early users fumble and nearly drop an early version of the FlipStart while trying to perform a three-finger salute, designers ended up including a single key labeled "CtrlAltDel" in the version that will be shipping soon. From the article: "Each device maker... has a different sense of how small an ultra-mobile can get before it becomes impossible to use. For instance, Microsoft thinks the tiniest screen possible measures 7 inches diagonally, but FlipStart Labs settled on 5.6 inches."
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  • The Sub-Notebook returns! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by AKAImBatman (238306) * <akaimbatman.gmail@com> on Wednesday March 07 2007, @01:19PM (#18264760) Homepage Journal
    So let me get this straight: They sell you a small brick for more than a notebook computer costs. You get a slow processor, small screen, small hard drive, worse battery life than the average PC or Mac laptop, a keyboard you can't type on, and you're supposed to believe that it's revolutionary? I'm not following.

    Sony tried this years ago with their Vaio sub-notebook [wikipedia.org] line of computers. (Here's a picture. [wikipedia.org]) Unlike this... thing... its keyboard was actually fairly decent, the screen was bright, and it was overall fairly useful. It's only problem was that it just wasn't large enough to be practical. You can't really type notes on a keyboard of that size. Nor are you really going to squint at the small screen while typing letters/memos/spreadsheets. That's why the entire market moved more toward the ultra-thin notebooks that were nearly as portable, but offered larger screens and keyboards.

    The only advantage I can find with this thing is that it's a sub-notebook with Wifi. (Based on the comments about replacing the BlackBerry.) Possibly even GSM/EDGE support. I don't think that's going to make up for the lousy form factor, especially when you can get a $50 PCMCIA card from your cell provider to do the same thing.

    • We Already Had This Conversation (Score:5, Informative)

      by Alaren (682568) on Wednesday March 07 2007, @01:24PM (#18264864) Homepage
      Old is new [slashdot.org].

      The article is already slashdotted, so I can't address it specifically, but this sounds like another step on a familiar road. See my comments here [slashdot.org], actually there are some great replies as well. Maybe this attempt will add something new, maybe it won't.

    • Re:The Sub-Notebook returns! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by CastrTroy (595695) on Wednesday March 07 2007, @01:25PM (#18264898) Homepage
      For that price, you could just get a PDA with keyboard and a laptop. I really don't see what this offers over a good PDA. It seems quite expensive for something that's basically a PDA. One point on the keyboard though. Most people I know, many people who use computers every day, even some developers, can't type properly, and use the hunt and peck method. I don't see this device slowing most people down.

      • Most people I know, many people who use computers every day, even some developers, can't type properly, and use the hunt and peck method. I don't see this device slowing most people down.

        This appears to be a little different, though. If you look at the photo of it, it appears to have one of those calculator-key keyboards that's really difficult to use. Probably a chiclet keyboard with plastic nubs for keys. Quite the departure from the scissor switch keyboards found in many laptops.

        Besides that, most people

        • Re:The Sub-Notebook returns! (Score:4, Insightful)

          by Goblez (928516) on Wednesday March 07 2007, @03:37PM (#18266854)

          Not to disagree, because I code all day and type very quickly, but have you seen most teenagers with a cell phone? I think there is something typing in a way other than with which we are accustom. The key also may be that the trade off in speed is acceptable for the convenience of the size.

      • One point on the keyboard though. Most people I know, many people who use computers every day, even some developers, can't type properly, and use the hunt and peck method. I don't see this device slowing most people down.

        The screen would, though. When I'm coding, I want all the screen resolution I can get, and as big a display as possible to read it on.

        • Do you normally code on a laptop? (Not wanting to be a troll or anything, just curious)

          If not, then you aren't the demographic as this thing is being touted as a laptop-killer. Personally, I agree with the parent, it looks like an overpriced, underpowered PDA replacement.

          I love how they always end up mentioning "every day" in this stuff. I love laptops, but when I buy a laptop, I don't buy it because I can do my "everyday" things on it (leaving out any gaming, most any damn laptop can run office or even visual studio...factor in linux and most any laptop will satisfy your "everyday" requirements), I buy it because it can do EVERYTHING I want it to do. This little gadget might run office type apps like nobody's business and might be able to surf the net ok, but if I'm dishing out big bucks it had better handle whatever I want to throw at it (and this machine doesn't look like it would cut it).

          For many people its an either/or situation. Either you get a desktop or a laptop. I don't know too many people who get both and scrimp on a sub-standard laptop on special because they are satisfied with their desktop.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by flyingsquid (813711)
          Personally, I would never go for something like this. When I'm writing a paper, editing an image, or using a spreadsheet for a significant amount of time, I want a screen that doesn't cause eye damage and a keyboard that won't cause carpal tunnel syndrome.

          On the other hand, yes, there are times when I don't need a full screen and keyboard: maybe I just want to look up the showtimes for a movie, find street directions on Google Maps, dash off a quick email to my friend. But here, it's too heavy (1.5 lbs), d

    • Are there any pics of this thing anywhere? It sounds like an OQO.
        • Ah, I'd only looked at the (empty) product site. This actually looks really cumbersome, and nothing like an OQO. Speaking of the OQO, I just noticed they've got a shinier new model out now, but its still insanely overpriced. With 1GB of RAM, a warranty, and a dock its nearly $3k, which is absolutely terrible.

    • I loved my sub-notebook for some things (Score:5, Informative)

      by EmbeddedJanitor (597831) on Wednesday March 07 2007, @01:28PM (#18264966)
      Psion 7. Instant on. Zero boot/wakeup time. Pretty good battery life. Smaller/lighter/slower than a laptop. Pretty decent keyboard (better than a blackberry etc)

      Sucky things: If it is too big to fit in your pocket you have to hand lug it and the size is not a huge benefit over a regular laptop. Screen is really too small, even for word processing etc.

      • The Nokia 9XXX machines are basically next generation Psions with a phone built in. The 9300 has a usable but not good keyboard. The 9500 is better, but obviously bigger.

        It fits in the pocket and can do pretty much everything a laptop can do. The really massive benefit though isn't readily apparent. That is, you always have all your data with you.

         

    • So let me get this straight: They sell you a small brick for more than a notebook computer costs. You get a slow processor, small screen, small hard drive, worse battery life than the average PC or Mac laptop, a keyboard you can't type on, and you're supposed to believe that it's revolutionary? I'm not following.

      I could live with the reduced performance for general purpose applications. Especially if you could pare down the OS a little so I didn't notice too much. But the real catch to me is the size.

      • The difference is that there currently is no laptop-sized computer that weighs only 1.5 lbs. Most laptops weigh at least 5 lbs, with most I see weighing more than 7.

    • They sell you a small brick for more than a notebook computer costs. [etc, etc] I'm not following.

      The point of this is SMALL.

      Sony tried this years ago with their Vaio sub-notebook line of computers.

      They are bigger, and the screen resolution sucked on them. The question is whether this new device has a "real" screen resolution. And you criticize the keyboard of this new device, missing the point of SMALL. Small is not compatible with "good keyboard".

      I don't think that's going to make up for the

      • The point of this is SMALL.

        The point is not, "so SMALL that it's useless". We can make a computer that fits in an oversized watch, but you wouldn't want to use it, either.

        If the slightly larger Sony products (which had better keyboards and longer relative battery life, mind you) were to SMALL to be useful, why would this POS be any more useful?

        I'm sure that many-a-technophile will appreciate how SMALL this thing is sitting on a SMALL shelf in a SMALL corner of a SMALL closet, having gotten SMALL amounts of

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Rob the Bold (788862)

        If you think the form factor is "lousy", then you're not looking for SMALL. The product is not for you, which is OK, except that you somehow generalize that no one is looking for small.

        There are smaller devices out there for less money. WinCE/PocketPC PDAs, Zauruses (Zaurii?). Those are a lot more transportable than this 1.5" thick brick. You're right that small and good keyboard don't go together, but that's exactly what it looks like they tried to do.

        So -- and this is a real question -- what sort of

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by starwed (735423)

      All of your arguments apply when comparing laptops to desktops; but people use them anyway because of the enormous convenience of being able to carry around your computer.

      The question is whether the convenience of this particular device is enough to get people to buy it; probably not right now. This is exactly what I want from a device, but I wouldn't pay 2k for it.

          • Re:The Sub-Notebook returns! (Score:4, Informative)

            by AKAImBatman (238306) * <akaimbatman.gmail@com> on Wednesday March 07 2007, @02:37PM (#18266104) Homepage Journal
            Apple was originally going to do the same on their 17" PowerBooks, but they killed the idea for a simple reason: Adding the number pad forced the keyboard to shift to one side. Which ruined the ergonomics of the device, and generally required that users type in an unbalanced configuration. (Not so good when you're using it on your lap.) That's why the 17" PowerBooks all had that odd space around the keyboard area.
    • I have an old Fujitsu-Siemens Lifebook P1032 from ebay. It's 9 inches wide, comes with a touch screen, and happily runs Linux. It's a bit low on memory (128MB), but it comes with 8 hours runtime using an extened battery, and is great for watching movies on planes. Or coding, whichever you prefer. Sub-notes are neat, but certainly not new. Vapourware comes and goes, while Sony and F-S quietly keep producing them.

      http://www0.epinions.com/pr-Fujitsu_LifeBook_P1032 _FPCM02053_PC_Notebook/display_~full_specs [epinions.com]

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Volante3192 (953645)
        It's not from Microsoft; it just happens to run Windows.

        Paul Allen hasn't been with MS for decades.
  • This might catch on in 10 years. Once the price falls. Of course the whole idea might be obsolete by then, replaced by cell phones, or something.
    • I'm waiting for the day that my cell phone and TV remote are the same piece of equipment, a la V for Vendetta (the movie, not the comic)
      • If you have a phone with IR, it's possible already. If you have a PalmOS-based phone with IR (never seen one, no idea if they exist, but I would think they'd have to) you could use OmniRemote. So, you can probably make this happen right now. For that matter, my iPaq came with Windows Mobile learning remote software, and I know that there's Windows Mobile smartphones with IR.
  • $2000 is enough to buy a desktop replacement machine with a core duo, two gigs of ram, and a gigantic display. If you're not going to go balls-out, then you probably only need a tiny subset of your computer's power, and a super-cheap device like an OLPC machine would suit your needs. Very very few people need a tiny but complete PC, because almost all of the jobs that require that kind of power require a reasonably-sized display as well. The form factor is nice, but the price is at least twice what it should be for a device sold into this market - which itself is vanishingly small.

  • Vaporware since 2004 (Score:5, Informative)

    by Crash McBang (551190) on Wednesday March 07 2007, @01:25PM (#18264900)
    Google 'flipstart' - you'll find that this thing has been Vaporware since before 2004.

    I'll believe it when woot has it on sale...

  • So... replace a $1000 laptop with a $2000 device? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Fallen Kell (165468) on Wednesday March 07 2007, @01:25PM (#18264908)
    And not only that, the $2000 device can't even do what the $1000 laptop could.... I just don't see this going very far. Maybe if it cost $600-800.
    • Yeah this thing looks like it does less than the last Fujitsu P1000 which is just slightly wider (barely larger footprint than a paperback book), and has a touch screen which is an anchient 800mhz Transmeta system. This isn't even replacing a $1000 item with a $2000 item. This is at most a $400 item these days. For $2000 I could get a highly pimped out Fujitsu Lifebook P7230 (I dig Fujitsu's sub-notebooks, rugged lil bastards) that does everything that does, has a whole fucking lot more, and the only drawba
  • Since 2002. And what have they produced since then? Nada, but some demo product shots. OQO managed to get some hardware out there, but this project seems to be going nowhere.

  • Fuck the NoteBook, Transform the DS. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Rachel Lucid (964267) on Wednesday March 07 2007, @01:28PM (#18264972) Homepage Journal
    Literally almost everyone who's going to be in this market already has a DS, and it's about the right size... a small cartridge loaded with a PDA-style application or three could clean up nicely. It's not going to be a laptop, but it's a nice cheap in-between that with a few key features could clean up big time.
  • My Fujitsu slate was thinner, larger, more useful, and more powerful. Plug in a Happy Hacker when at home, and it was sufficiently powered. I also used Verizon CDMA...

    This thing is a brick, which very often is harder to store/transport than a larger slate. Think notebooks. Once these things are as large as iPods/cell phones, they will become revolutionary, though I hazard to guess that the interaction models, and new ways of generating thinking artifacts will be the revolutionary part.
  • N800 can use foldable bluetooth keyboards, or bluetooth virtual keyboards...
  • "The FlipStart promises to do everything a full-sized laptop can do."

    Except give you a screen you can actually see, and a keyboard you can actually use. Hm, there goes the output and input pieces, yep, its doomed for failure.

    • Except give you a screen you can actually see, and a keyboard you can actually use. Hm, there goes the output and input pieces, yep, its doomed for failure.

      These days I use a fairly small laptop for almost everything. The portability is important to me and I'd use it more if it were more portable. Is the small screen size a deal killer? Not really, I usually have it plugged into an external monitor when I'm in the office or at home, using just the built in screen at the coffee shop and on the road. Is the small keyboard size a deal killer? Well, I usually plug in an external trackball at the office and home, so plugging in a keyboard too is not a huge deal,

  • PC Mag review here (Score:3, Insightful)

    by writertype (541679) on Wednesday March 07 2007, @01:33PM (#18265074)
    Sorry for the brief comment... the review is here [pcmag.com].

  • Apple will kill this device (Score:4, Funny)

    by xyankee (693587) on Wednesday March 07 2007, @01:35PM (#18265114)
    With the direction they're going with the iPhone, you know it's only a matter of time before Apple whips that technology into something with a 5"-7" display in a far more attractive package with superior software. I mean, look at that thing... not an ounce of industrial design, it doesn't seem like you'll be able to thumb-type on it like a Blackberry, and it's too big to fit in any coat pocket or to be carried on your belt.

    And is it just me or is Paul Allen grinning like a paedophile holding something illicit in his hands? I can't believe their marketing team let that through (they probably don't have one, mind you).
    • The idea of the size of the device is that you CAN thumb-type, although with the thickness of the device it's probably damned heavy, too. It's a Repetitive motion Stress Injury in a box! Not surprising that anyone from Microsoft knows jack shit about ergonomics though. Have you ever used their mice?

  • Yeah, it's pricey, but the big question that the article doesn't address is screen resolution (and why isn't that given so often when discussing new notebooks?) Yes, we've had sub-notebooks before that failed, but I think one of the big reasons they fail is that the screens are typically 640 pixels across. You can't do anything reasonable with 640 pixels!

    If this thing has 1024 pixels horizontal, and the price comes down a bit, I'd be all over it.

  • And in other revolutionary news: (Score:5, Funny)

    by dpbsmith (263124) on Wednesday March 07 2007, @01:41PM (#18265250) Homepage
    The FlipStart team is also working on:

    --a revolutionary car bigger than a SmartCar [smartcarofamerica.com] but smaller than a Mini Cooper

    --a revolutionary porridge heater that will heat porridge warmer than "too cold," but colder than "too hot"

    --a revolutionary Budweiser bigger than a 10-ounce [npr.org] but smaller than a 12-ounce.

    Laboratory prototypes of the latter include a 10.5-ounce Bud, an 11-ounce Bud, and an 11.5-ounce Bud. "Really, they give you practically everything that 12-ounce Bud does," said a FlipStart spokesman, appropriately named Budd.
  • Looks about the size and shape of a Toshiba Libretto, but a little bit more expensive. Toshiba built these in the early '90's and they were very small, lightweight, but functional laptops. They were also rather pricey. Toshiba discontinued them for a while, but then came out with new models a few years ago. I didn't see them at the Toshiba web site, so they may have been discontinued again.
  • I hope Paul Allen doesn't have too much invested in this little device... it looks like something from 5 years ago. If it's going to cost 2 grand, why not just save some space and power and use flash-based storage? It's only 30GB anyways. It might help it look a little less like a brick, also.
  • It looks like it might be an interesting device... Although, not much different than something like the OQO devices that are already available.

    I just don't think a scaled down laptop is going to cut it. On the one hand, it's too small to be used efficiently as a laptop, on the other, it's too large to be a carry-everywhere device.

    I think the better direction is a mid-sized tablet device. Not a clunky windows PC with tablet functions duct taped on, like MS has provided thus far. I'm thinking more of a

  • Good idea without Windows (Score:5, Insightful)

    by hirschma (187820) on Wednesday March 07 2007, @01:53PM (#18265438)
    This thing costs $2k. Why?

    Because it needs to be x86, with in turn means that it needs to have a bigger battery, fancier engineering, special cooling. A hard drive because it needs to swap due to Windows memory needs and usage patterns.

    Kill off Windows, and then you have a bunch of better processors - PPC, ARM, whatever. Smaller battery. No special cooling. No need for a hard drive. No Windows license. Room for other features - cell phone/modem? Bluetooth hub functionality?

    BTW, it has pretty much been done... [engadget.com] Too bad it isn't Linux.

  • nokia n800 (Score:3, Interesting)

    by joetheguy (1048262) <joe@j[ ]ino.com ['ann' in gap]> on Wednesday March 07 2007, @01:59PM (#18265538)
    I have a nokia n800 and love it. It can easily fit in a jacket pocket or a bag without having to think about it. Its big screen, wifi, and bluetooth, make surfing the web a breeze. I use it a lot to read news and documentation in coffee shops or on trains. With a folding bluetooth keyboard, or the on screen one, I can easily write quick notes or docs. And its linux and comes with a full featured terminal I can use to SSH into work and get some things done. Plus its only $400

    The genius of the n800 I think is that it is not a laptop and not a pda. It is its own class of device, with a UI designed specificly for its small high resolution screen, touch screen, and set of buttons.

    I am still waiting for a computer that looks like a small book, but where the screen itself folds in half, to become a tablet with a reasonable screen size. Apple dreamed of such a device called the Knowledge Navigator years ago in the following video, and I hope display and voice recognition technology will make this something real within the next 5 years.
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=3WdS4TscWH8 [youtube.com]
    • Cool device, but kinda weird it doesn't have wifi built in. You'd actually have to waste a CF slot for a wifi card! I'm not even sure if they make them anymore as virtually every device with a CF slot has wifi already built in.
    • instead of holding your breath.

      You waited three years to tell... &*$%#@ [NO CARRIER]

    • Re:Get an OQO instead (Score:4, Informative)

      by ArhcAngel (247594) on Wednesday March 07 2007, @04:12PM (#18267248)
      I'm shocked this is the only comment mentioning the OQO! [oqo.com] I had the opportunity to work with the OQO 1+ model for almost a year and while it was not a speed demon by any stretch of the imagination it was more than competent. With the 02's bumped up processor speed and mobile broadband built in I can hardly see any reason to even introduce the flipstart (or should that be falsestart). At $2K I can purchase the fully loaded OQO 02 [oqo.com] with Windows Vista (yes there are tutorials on installing Linux)and that includes any shipping costs.

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