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The Next Notebook Battery? Lithium Polymer
Posted by
Zonk
on Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:36 AM
from the better-than-a-burning-notebook-in-your-lap dept.
from the better-than-a-burning-notebook-in-your-lap dept.
Lewis Clarke writes "Sony is changing its course to use an old technology for its new battery manufacturing. ZDNet is reporting on comments from Sony Electronics President Stan Glasgow, where he said that Notebook makers will 'likely' soon choose to incorporate lithium polymer batteries (a battery technology that emerged nine years ago) over the current commonly used type, lithium ion batteries." From the article: "Lithium polymer batteries use lithium as an active ingredient. Lithium is a volatile material, but the lithium in these batteries isn't packed into cells as it is in lithium ion batteries. Instead, it is contained in a polymer gel. These gel batteries can't provide the same sort of energy density as lithium ion batteries, but that's now a plus."
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Eh? (Score:2)
Or, giving them their full name, are they not referring to Lithium Ion Polymer batteries?
Re:Eh? (Score:5, Informative)
In some ways. It's the same thing, really, but packaged two different ways. Both are often called Li-Ion batteries, cause they are. The main two advantages of Lithium Polymer are:
(A) They can be shaped in all kinds of odd shapes, which is a benefit when you also pack some circuitry inside the battery package, or have to use space as best you can.
(B) They are less likely to explode, as there's resistance in the gel medium itself that hinders (if not completely prevents) a chain reaction.
The main downside to Li-Polymer is that it is less efficient by volume and weight.
Regards,
--
*Art
Parent
NOT TRUE (Score:5, Interesting)
Lipo battery warning for R/C aviation [wattflyer.com]
I use both battery types in various aircraft. The lithium polymer is much less stable. I've seen a pack swell and be ready to vent just by knocking one off of a table onto the ground. Lithium ion will not do this. Also, keep in mind that any battery will explode if you overcharge it.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
If the laptop owner has a chance of survival Sony might have to replace the device. With LiPo batteries, the number of reclaims could be greatly reduced.
Re:NOT TRUE (Score:5, Informative)
How many laptops do you see being dropped? Apparently there is enough lap top dropping that IBM was advertising how sturdy their laptops were a few years back.
Parent
Not sure about the weight thing. (Score:5, Informative)
This, I think, is not true. LiIons may be more efficient by volume, but LiPos are almost certainly more efficient per weight, because they don't have the cells, or many of the protection mechanisms that LiIon batteries have to have.
The power/weight advantage is why they're used in applications where weight is more important than volume -- R/C aircraft, for instance. When LiPo batteries came out, they basically replaced NiCads and LiIon batteries overnight in most ultralight aircraft and helis, because they're just so much lighter (meaning that if you had an aircraft designed for NiCads, which wasn't atypical, you could get ridiculous flight time by upgrading to LiPoly cells).
But being more efficient per volume, that I could definitely believe.
The other big advantage I have heard is that with LiPo, you don't have to encase the batteries as heavily, so more of the weight and volume can actually be taken up with electricity-storing components, instead of as an 'exoskeleton' providing protection for the cells.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
I'd imagine this has a lot to do with how the manufacturer decides to package the cells.
My room mate has a few electric RC helicopters and he swapped out the NiMH cells that came with them for bare cell LiPos. They were large flat cells reminis
Re:Not sure about the weight thing. (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Lithium polymer offers a lighter package at a higher volume to achieve the same capacity and discharge current. Because of the high resistance characteristics of the polymer-only substrate, some liquid electrolyte (the
Re: (Score:2)
I don't know about anyone else, but I think i'd risk MORE explosive batteries if I could get like 9 hours of juice on my notebook.
you could... (Score:3, Funny)
All MacBook Pros/MacBooks use LiPo (Score:3, Informative)
A Better Idea (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
No, it also exists in reality. [419eater.com]
Re:A Better Idea (Score:5, Funny)
Okay, maybe we should rethink this whole battery thing and go back to luggables.
--
Evan
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
now if you want some REAL power you need Energon [wikipedia.org]
That's so...Isolinear! (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Because Klingons flooded the market with substandard crystals. Damn near caused humpbacks to go extinct.
Dilithium won't supply you any power! (Score:3, Informative)
In TNG, all their hand-held and portable devices use Sarium-Krellide power cells.
I don't know about that (Score:4, Insightful)
example of a li-poly flame out before buying li-poly batteries?
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1
Re: (Score:2)
I was doing some reading on this... (Score:2)
Kaboom? (Score:4, Funny)
Please go back to the drawing board... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Please go back to the drawing board... (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Why? (Score:2, Interesting)
...but that's now a plus (Score:2)
What color is the sky at Sony HQ? (Score:2)
Um, no it's not a plus. Well, maybe for Sony since they can't seem to manufacture LiIon batteries reliably. But for the rest of the industry, I'm pretty sure lower engergy density (and hence shorter runtimes and/or larger batteries) is a minus. Otherwise we would all be running our laptops on alkalines.
lifetime? (Score:4, Interesting)
has anything changed with this or is what i've heard BS?
Re:lifetime? (Score:5, Informative)
You can design in a larger and more costly charger manager in a notebook battery than you can in a digital audio player. More sophisticated charge management ICs have dead battery precharging cycles, thermimstor inputs to watch cell temp, and smarter logic for charging battery depending on state of charge when you plug it in to the charger. The smaller, low cost chargers you use for small electronics aren't nearly so smart, most just stop charging at a given voltage (or at the end of the safety timeout).
Anyway, you can get better battery lifetime if you can afford the cost and size of a fancier charger. Doesn't mean the guys designing small devices are doing a bad job, they just have a different tradeoff to make when doing the design.
Parent
Lithium Polymer is already in use (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Lithium Polymer is already in use (Score:5, Informative)
Energy density of the raw charge storing material is lower with LiPo, but it doesn't require the same packaging/metal casing, so net energy density is higher.
Something like 2.5 times as much power per weight as Li-Ion battery packs. It's revolutionized RC electrics.
Models that were designed for NiMH cells and were getting 4-5 minutes of flight time, can now get 15 or more minutes of flight.
Parent
Bollocks. (Score:5, Insightful)
Moreover, there are plenty of Li-ion batteries out there that haven't overheated, burned, detonated, or imploded into naked singularities causing the annihilation of life as we know it. Which means, for those batteries, you get to have longer battery life or lighter laptops sans the death and destruction result, so the move from that state to the proposed solution isn't even a tradeoff, it's a pure loss.
Covering for the inadequacy of your manufacturing/QC processes by making a worse product that's easier to make doesn't translate into a "plus." It sounds to me that the real plus would be if they moved to a power source they've obviously got in plenty - though I think the name "spintronics" has already been taken.
Re: (Score:2)
I wouldn't be too sure about that. The article doesn't really make it clear how well the density compares.
Energy density isn't mass density. It might mean larger notebooks or lower battery life, but it doesn't inherently mean heavier batteries.
The article says that Lithium polimer is more flexible in form factor allowing more choices at design time, so it's not a total negative trade-off
Interesting priorities (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.lipos [liposack.com]
Next Notebook Battery? (Score:5, Informative)
I'm typing this on a c2d MacBook Pro [apple.com] which lists a lithium polymer battery as its spec. Third bullet line down on that page. I also have a 5GB iPod that uses a lithium polymer battery [apple.com]. Apple went Li-Ion for later iPods, probably for higher capactiy, but I'm on my second battery in 5 years and it gives me more than 8 hours of playtime (haven't tested it beyond that).
I guess that means Apple isn't using Sony for its current batteries?
Re: (Score:2)
Reading between the lines, I'm guessing Sony figures it cost most to handle the recalls, direct and indirect costs, than they were making as profit in the Li-Ion business. If Li-Polymer batteries are less likely to be recalled, they should profit more even if their volumes drop.
Current draw? (Score:2)
Lots of sectors already use LiPo (Score:4, Insightful)
What scares me though... many many reports of fires due to overcharging (shoddy chargers). It is suggested to always charge the LiPos in a 'battery bunker', a clay pot filled with sand, with a lid.
Isn't that what they were trying to prevent with the new laptops?
Re: (Score:2)
If one is really concerned about explosion/fire, I'd leave the lid off -- at least don't fasten it down. Then the setup would resemble a munitions loading bunker.
Re: (Score:2)
"The loose fitting lid locks on to contain the fire and allows the smoke and flame to vent around the lid and wire slot. The lid is designed to take the initial jolt that occurs."
Be VERY careful (Score:5, Informative)
Li-Po batteries are small and light and can produce a higher continue current than lithium ion. They are very powerful batteries.
One of the problems though...and why I generally stay away from them is that they explode. They can easily become unstable if dropped (or crashed). I don't claim to be an expert but the cells in a lithium ion battery are metal - they can sustain an impact and vibration where as the cells in a lithium polymer are mostly plastic which can cause a mix of the chemicals inside and cause the battery to heat up until it vents and then explodes.
Fire caused by overcharging [rcgroups.com]
Video of a lipo battery going bad. [helihobby.com]
Re:Be VERY careful (Score:5, Informative)
First, The distinction of Li-Poly from the general chemistry of Li-Ion is in the electrolyte. Instead of a liquid or gel electrolyte, the Li-Poly cell uses a thin sheet of conductive polymer doped with ionic compounds. Now while this polymer electrolyte has less mobility than a liquid, resulting in a lower energy density (J/cm^3) and power density (W/cm^3), in practice the manufactured shapes can be more complex than the coin or cylindrical shapes imposed by liquid electrolytes. Therefore more "battery cell" can be stuffed into otherwise unused volumes, and in many applications this maximizes the effective energy density beyond what can be achieved using cylindrical cells.
Second, any Lithium chemistry cell using a Cobalt-alloy cathode (virtually all of them on the market today) is subject to a thermal runaway condition if the internal cell temperature exceeds 130C. This includes Li-Poly cells.
Valence corp has patented a Lithium-Iron-Phosphate cathode chemistry that has less energy density, similar to NiCd, however the change to a Iron cathode eliminates the thermal runaway possiblity, making the cells much safer. These will soon be available commercially from DeWalt as battery packs for their cordless power tools. Here [dewalt.com] is a press release... note that Valence later bought the company referenced therein, A123 Systems. (I wonder if there's been a delay somewhere - DeWalt was marketing this much more heavily just a few months ago, now you have to do a search on their site to find any reference of it.)
Another company, Altair Nanotechnologies, has patented a Litium Titanate Spinel anode technology that also claims to eliminate the risk of fire and improve on both the Energy Density and Power Density of vanilla Li-Ion. However they have yet to actually deliver cells (to me anyway, despite many requests). And this chemistry is not exclusive to the Iron Phosphate cathode, meaning someone with all of the proper patent licenses could combine the two and make a high energy-density, non-exploding laptop battery that does even better than the Li-Poly battery I'm using in my MacBook Pro right now.
Finally, here's a link [batteryuniversity.com] to the "Safety Concerns" page of the "Battery University" site which is an excellent user's reference for Li-Ion secondary batteries, among others. And here is a link [valence.com] to a Valence Corp white paper that describes their LIP cells. Lastly, here is a PDF [altairnano.com] of Altair Nano's marketing material describing their claims of safety advantages their Titanium spinel material offers to commercial batteries.
Parent
Already used in laptops (Score:2, Informative)
Heavy, Man. (Score:2, Informative)
Lithium (Score:3, Funny)
Lithium is NOT volatile (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Polymer is safer (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)