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256GB Geometrically Encoded Paper Storage Device
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Sun Nov 26, 2006 09:28 AM
from the passing-complicated-notes-in-class dept.
from the passing-complicated-notes-in-class dept.
jrieth50 noted that a method of using geometric shapes combined with color to store up to 256GB of data on a sheet of paper or plastic. The article says "Files such as text, images, sounds and video clips are encoded in 'rainbow format' as colored circles, triangles, squares and so on, and printed as dense graphics on paper at a density of 2.7GB per square inch. The paper can then be read through a specially developed scanner and the contents decoded into their original digital format and viewed or played."
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Robustness & Feasibility (Score:5, Interesting)
My question would be how much wear & tear can a sample of this medium stand before it is rendered unreadable? I would highly doubt one would be able to fold it--however it would be interesting to see whether creating a diagonal read/write scheme would protect from vertical & horizontal folds with the proper ECC. I think the plastic sheets could potentially be as robust as discs but would you be able to bend them? I doubt it though if they allowed it, it'd probably end up being more expensive than a disc.
Interesting technology but I'd sure like to hear a lot more of the details of how it works & how it performs before I make a solid judgment on its feasibility.
Re:Robustness & Feasibility (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Related prior art (Score:3, Informative)
I believe it was "Dr. Dobb's Journal" that used to publish code that could be scanned, sort of a variant on barcodes.
Printed at the higher resolutions available to printers and scanners 15-20 years later, how much data could you store using that encoding format on paper? We've gone from about 100dpi to 600-1200, which actually means at least 36 times the data storage per square inch.
I fail to see how a binary pixel can fail to take less space than a printed geometric shape. You can squirt an ink dot
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If you assume an 8.5 x 10 inch sheet of paper (85 square inches), 300 x 300 dpi x 256 colors, you end up with 1.95 billion bits of info you can put on a page. Divided by 8 (to get bytes), you end up with something like 244GB of potential info. But you'll need to have some good error correction and registration. if you look at the original link
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You would need 2^256 different colors, reliably detectable. This is impossible.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Thanks for the link to weierstrass' Implicity blog [blogspot.com]. His diagram of the 102 unique two-color patterns is very useful in this context.
So 102 patterns using 2 colors multiplied by the number of combinations of two colors that can be drawn without replacement from a palette of 256 colors... it has been a while since I've worked combinations but I know how to use Google as a brain prosthesis:
Google this, guys: "256 choose 2" yields 32,640 unique two-color schemes.
So 32,640 * 102 patterns = 3,329,280 possib
Re:Robustness & Feasibility (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Robustness & Feasibility (Score:3, Funny)
You must be new here.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
for completeness (Score:3, Funny)
2 GB, 244 GB, 7.6MB, 22MB,03GB, 765KB, 1.360006 million bits, 244,800,000 bytes, 8,415,000 MB, 15,000,000 bytes, 578MB, 1540.83 MB, 403MB, 9GB, 140MB, 280MB, 87,925,612 bytes, 256 MByte, 1.7 trillion bytes, 26 Megabytes, 20196 Mbit, 3 Million Gigabytes, 68 megabytes, 64K, 30 Mb, 32Mb, 8.2Gb,
Cool... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Must be a very good scanner. (Score:3, Interesting)
Scam... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Scam... (Score:5, Informative)
So instead of multiplying by 256, you have to multiply by 4. Result: about 140MB.
Another approach to analyzing the claim: For a given dpi resolution, how many variations of a single dot must your system be able to produce and distinguish? I get 256 GB / 302940000 dots, or 907 gradiations. Instead, we have four available.
I'm split between "scam" and "incompetent." But believing he may have actually done what he claimed is no longer an option for me.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Scam? (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.digg.com/tech_news/Scam_of_Indian_stud
Re:maybe not scam? (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, can you really have 256 distinguishable color levels on a piece of paper - especially considering that paper is not a uniform color on the micro-scale (it's made up of short strands of cellulose)?
Even if all these problems can be overcome, there is the limiting factor of diffraction, which will limit any optical system (paper or otherwise) to a data density of about 1/wavelength^2, which is roughly the density of a DVD.
Parent
So one picture says more (Score:2, Funny)
This is brilliant (Score:2)
I wonder how... low the data density can go in terms of DPI & resolution and how that would compare to 2D barcodes.
BTW - TFA is really just a summary of this article
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4§ion=0&article= 88962&d=18&m=11&y=2006 [arabnews.com]
Re:This is brilliant (Score:5, Funny)
We truly live in the golden age of technology.
Parent
C'mon Slashdot (Score:5, Informative)
It's a scam [blogspot.com].
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I tried this... (Score:5, Funny)
This looks like a lie (Score:4, Insightful)
Let's see A4 - 256Gig. Let's say n different colors.
He'd need to store 256*1024*1024*1024*8 = 2199023255552 bits
on A4 = 210 mm x 297 mm = 62370 mm^2 = 2456 inch
That makes 895 367 775 bits per inch. To encode that you'd need 895 367 775 / log2(n) dots. Increasing the number of colors can buy you some leeway, but not that much.
The surface area of such a dot would be 1/30 000 000 th of a millimeter.
Where will you find paper that has surface flaws significantly smaller than that ? No matter what the encoding, you're still going to need it. So this is a scam, plain and simple.
Re:This is a lie (Score:4, Informative)
256*1024*1024*1024*8*(10/8) = 2.749 * 10^12 [allowing for 25% extra - error detection/correction]
Now, the area of a sheet of paper in mm^2:
210 mm * 297 mm = 6.237 * 10^4
Let's make an assumption: it would be tough for a scanner to correctly identify more than 256 colors (blues especially are problematic). So, going by a pixel based method, we can store 8 bits per pixel, so the number of pixels needed is:
2.749 * 10^12 / 8 = 3.436 * 10^11
Pixels per mm^2 will therefore be:
3.436 * 10^11 / 6.237 * 10^4 = 5.509 * 10^6
Taking the square root of this figure and inverting will give us the size of one side of a pixel in mm, so:
1 / (5.509 * 10^6)^.5 = 4.260 * 10^-4 mm =
This is smaller than the wavelengths of some frequencies of visible light, therefore a large portion of the spectrum is gone in terms of colors that can be used. Eliminate these colors and you increase density yet again, requiring you eliminate more colours. By the time you get to monochromatic (black white), which you will, the size is smaller than the wavelength of ANY visible light.
So, for this storage density, either you are scanning in ultraviolet light (and printing using an appropriate ink) to get a small enough wavelength, or you have thrown out light all together and you are using an electron microscope as your scanner. (Note - ever see electron microscope images in color? Can't exist unless colorized).
Fairly clever hoax though - if they had stuck with, say, 16GB then it would not have edged into the impossible.
Parent
Re: (Score:3)
You forgot the one important component which embedded in the name of the RTFA's method: colors. The method uses colors and thus called "Rainbow format". Also it specifically used geometrical shapes - which introduce another angle to data representations. It's not about dots anymore - it's about shapes and colors.
Besides, somehow encodings used to reach megabyte wireless speeds are not surprising to you. (
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Therefore the obvious way gives a better information density.
Therefore comparing against the obvious way is *not* necessarily the behaviour of a jackass, but quite possibly the behaviour of someone who has a grasp of Information Theory.
Time for everyone to borrow Cover and Thomas from their local library, methinks.
FatPhil
Re:RTFA (Score:5, Informative)
Bzzt.
Encoding data using dots is the most efficient method possible. He has to print the image somehow, and scan it back in again. No combination of triangles and circles can circumvent the resolution limit, which is what is being calculated here.
By showing that the claim exceeds all practical limits of optical resolution (and probably the absolute physical limits), we show that what we have is just another magical compression scam.
He says that he's "doing something differently"; we've proved that what he claims to be doing is impossible. End of story.
Parent
Re:RTFA (Score:5, Informative)
Bzzt.
Encoding data using dots is the most efficient method possible. He has to print the image somehow, and scan it back in again. No combination of triangles and circles can circumvent the resolution limit, which is what is being calculated here.
By showing that the claim exceeds all practical limits of optical resolution (and probably the absolute physical limits), we show that what we have is just another magical compression scam.
He says that he's "doing something differently"; we've proved that what he claims to be doing is impossible. End of story.
Assumptions (none of them unreasonable, all of them quite generous even):
1440dpi
8 bit color
8" x 10.5" printing area
Even assuming perfect readability, this resolution yields only 1.4GB per page. Talk of "shapes" is smoke and mirrors to obfuscate one of the cold hard facts of information theory: you cannot accurately represent all permutations of 8 bits of information if you've budgeted less than 8 bits. Compression schemes allow you to compress repetitive patterns is you know they're going to be there beforehand (e.g. an almost arbitrarily large number of only 1's or only 0's can be represented with run length encoding), but X bits of random data requires X bits of allocated space.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
1000 nm and good optical filters will give you a window of 2 nm bandpass, so assuming he used
500 wavelengths/colors he could store 700 Gb per page. Also, I am aware of prototype, in the lab
printers (by Canon) which do 9600 dpi (Google it), so pushing technology to its limits and
cost notwithstanding you could write 31 Tb on an A4 sheet. And I am pretty sure one can make
this work for not much more than a yearly budget o
Re:This looks like a lie (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's say that we're drawing very tiny triangles as close to our resolution limit as possible (which we must do if we want to fit a lot of them). Such a triangle might be, say, 3 x 3 resolution units, so a hollow, up-triangle might look like this:But look: there are 2^9 (or 512) possible shapes that can be made in this grid -- so by using only 64 different triangles, we are actually underutilising our medium. It doesn't matter what technology you use, any shape other than a "dot" is itself made out of smaller units like "dots", so restricting our vocabulary to certain shapes (rather than arbitrary sequences of dots) will waste space.
Parent
Archive format (Score:2)
Given that the BBC's Domesday project [wikipedia.org] (data gathered in 1986) needed to be "rescued" by 2002 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2534391.stm ), then there are currently no reliable digital archive systems for long term storage.
On the other hand, the Rosetta Project look like they could get it licked for really long term storage (Example http:// [rosettaproject.org]
Re: (Score:2)
Plus you could always take some LSD (if you're into that sort of thing) and stare at your data for a few hours. Like, wow - man. Try doing THAT with a hard drive...
So in our digital age... (Score:2, Funny)
Bullshit, complete bullshit (Score:5, Informative)
Do The Numbers (Score:5, Insightful)
Alright, that's 21.6 gigabits per square inch.
For the sake of argument, let's say that the printer and scanner can reliably print and scan colour at 24-bit fidelity (which is nonsense, but makes the numbers nice and tidy): 900 million pixels per square inch.
That's 30,000 dpi.
That means you'd have to print and scan pixels less than a micron across. In full colour.
I don't think so.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I divided it by 24, because the entire calculation is in terms of bits. We have 24 bits per pixel. 2^24 possible colours, encoded as 24 bits. 24 colours would encode less than 5 bits.
What your calculation assumes is that we are storing two megabytes per pixel. I think you can see why this is impractical.
hmmm... (Score:5, Interesting)
Ultimate compression? (Score:5, Insightful)
Lets just imagine for one second that its true.
Instead of printing this data onto paper, why not just store it loslessly in a bitmap file? After all, printers only have a certain DPI and a certain amount of colours. If you could take this bitmap file and somehow extract 256GB of data from it, that sure would be some cool magic.
I find the comments amusing. (Score:5, Funny)
I wouldn't be so quick to say this is a scam.
I've always defended Slashdot, but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's time for some sort of shakeup with editorial at Slashdot. Digg is imperfect and a lot of the users are idiots (I'd certainly say the average Slashdotter is significantly more intelligent and clued-up) but Slashdot is slow and has a poor editorial process. Could we, perhaps, strive to produce something with the perfect mix of the two? Fast news, the ability to vote, etc, but coupled with the superb Slashdot audience? It's all false hope, I'm sure, but I have more hope in people than technology.. so Slashdot is just the place to bring this up IMHO.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I have seen articles about algorithms that allow you to calculate the value of any decimal place in Pi.
Plus, additional ones that allow you to prove (in a mathematical way) that any given string of characters you care to wish for are present in some location somewhere in the Pi decimal string.
SO the first point allows you to decompress knowing the beginning and ending values, and the second point a
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
No, the person made no such claims. You have created a strawman. In a computer, when you read a "1" what is the chance that the following bit will be a "1"? I'm not sure what the real probablility is, but I'm guessing somewhere around 50%. Why? Because the bits are not dependent on the previous bits. However, this guy is using shapes and patterns. Perhaps there is some man
Re:Not Dots (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
An upper bound (Score:5, Informative)
Here's an upper bound as a check on your numbers (not restricting ourselves to a small dictionary of shapes). I'll give away the punchline: My numbers agree with yours, but 256 GB is not possible using printers and paper.
Assumptions: I use your printer linear resolution of 1200 dpi, and assume that adjacent pixels can be resolved at this resolution. I also assume that 256 different colors can be distinguished, as you do, and that the paper we are using has an area of 96.6763 inches^2, also as you do.
Calculation: With a linear resolution of 1200 dpi, one can fit 1440000 dots per square inch (Check!), and so 139213872 dots on a sheet of A4. With 256 colors we can store a number as large as (number_of_colors)^(number_of_dots). So:
256^139213872 = 2^N (where N is the equivalent number of bits)
(2^8)^(139213872) = 2^N (recognizing that 256 = 2^8)
2^(8*139213872) = 2^N
N = 8*139213872 (bits)
(and if we just divide by 8 again to get bytes...) => 139213872 bytes = 139 MB
Discussion: This theoretical upper bound is three orders of magnitude smaller than what is being claimed by the article: It is not possible to store 256 GB on a sheet of A4. My result does however agree with your result in that the inequality (my_result)>(your_result) holds, as it should. Ad it's really not too shabby: Accounting for 8-to-14 conversion for some error correction, we can store slightly under 80 MB in this way.
Different assumptions: If I instead use your 2000 dpi laser printer figure, then I can fit 4000000 dots per square inch, and so 386705200 dots on a sheet of A4 and so almost 386 MB. (Including error correction, one might store 220 MB.) Pretty impressive!
The Absurd: Right now, many modern semiconductor fabs have working 90 nm photolithographic processes. That means that the smallest feature size is 3.54330709×10^(-6) in, and the linear resolution is about 282222 dpi. If all we print is the first metal layer, then a dot can either be "with metal" or "without metal" -- that is, one bit. And on a silicon wafer with an area the same as that of a sheet of A4 paper, we can then fit 7700207603555 dots, or 962 GB. Hard drives are about halfway there!
Parent