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China Claims Successful Fusion Power Test
Posted by
kdawson
on Thu Sep 28, 2006 02:10 PM
from the bang-'em-together-hard dept.
from the bang-'em-together-hard dept.
SeaDour writes, "China claims to have carried out a successful test of its experimental thermonuclear fusion reactor. But what exactly made this test 'successful' is not clear. From the article: 'Xinhua cited the scientists as saying that deuterium and tritium atoms had been fused together at a temperature of 100 million degrees Celsius for nearly three seconds. The report did not specify whether the device... had succeeded at producing more energy than it consumed, the main obstacle to making fusion commercially viable.'" China is a participant in the 10-nation ITER project to build a fusion reactor in the south of France by 2015. The article quotes the research head of ITER as saying, "It was important for China to show that it is part of the club. Here are English language versions of the Chinese news release: announcement, background.
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Science: France Will Be Home To Fusion Plant 744 comments
ScentCone writes "After years of politicking, France has won the right to be the location for a $12 billion fusion research facility. The plant will use deuterium-from-seawater and a huge electromagnetic ring to produce the 100-million-C conditions in which researchers hope to produce viable fusion. The debate over whether this is even possible continues to rage. The ITER project started in 1985, and there has been a running fight over money and location since. France indicated that if Japan (one of the holdouts) didn't see it their way, they'd build a coalition of the willing and do it anyway. With financing and contracting agreements in place, the 10-year construction can begin." Coverage also available at MSNBC, the NYTimes, CNN, and the BBC.
[+]
International Fusion Reactor Project Moves Forward 265 comments
mjgp2 writes to mention a BBC article about an agreement which will begin construction on the second most expensive scientific collaboration, after the ISS : the world's first large-scale fusion reactor. From the article: "The seven-party consortium, which includes the European Union, the US, Japan, China, Russia and others, agreed last year to build Iter in Cadarache, in the southern French region of Provence ... He said that the participants would aim to ratify their agreement before the end of the year so construction on the facility could start in 2007. Officials said the experimental reactor would take about eight years to build. The EU is to foot about 50% of the cost to build the experimental reactor. If all goes well with the experimental reactor, officials hope to set up a demonstration power plant at Cadarache by 2040. "
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Slashback: What Dell Knew, China's Fusion, Vista 154 comments
Slashback tonight brings some clarifications and updates to previous Slashdot stories, including: What Dell knew and when they knew it, GNU/Linux may gain from the Vista WGA crackdown, China's fusion test was a hoax, and the Vista startup chime will be optional. Read on for details.
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China's definition of success (Score:5, Funny)
Re:China's definition of success (Score:4, Funny)
Hey, nothing wrong with that. I've said it plenty of times myself.
(:
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Re:China's definition of success (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:China's definition of success (Score:5, Funny)
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:China's definition of success (Score:5, Funny)
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You must work for the Government. (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:China's definition of success, likely a lie. (Score:5, Insightful)
Some of the smartest people I know are chinese. What makes you think they can't do it? Is it because they are not white? Are chinese incabable of doing research? Are the chinese by nature liars?
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Re:China's definition of success, likely a lie. (Score:5, Interesting)
You may not know, but South Koreans are not Communists.
However, I am a scientist. And, guess what, my wife is from South Korea. We've had a number of discussions about Hwang Woo-suk (the scientist in question).
I can state, as a scientist, that there's a lot of pressure to get certain results. If you don't get some kind of results you don't get grants. You don't get grants, you can't continue your research.
My wife states, as a South Korean, that there can be a lot of cultural pressure to succeed and that it can be quite overwhelming at times.
I think that the GP (my GGP) was saying that due to all the cultural pressures it may be too tempting for Chinese scientists to fake results.
Parent
Oh... (Score:4, Funny)
100 million degrees Celsius for nearly three seconds.
I think someone needs a CoolerMaster for that one!
bad news, the coolermaster consumed all the net energy
Re:Oh... (Score:5, Informative)
Side note: while 100 million degrees sounds awfully hot, we're talking about a tiny amount of fuel here. The usual figure quoted for a hypothetical commercial reactor is about two grams of fuel in the core at any given time. The reactor itself doesn't get anywhere near that hot, even in the event of a full loss of containment.
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Heat Pollution (Score:3, Interesting)
It's mentioned only peripherally, but the general idea is that the widespread use of fusion power and the vastly increased energy consumption, combined with population and other types of biosphere-bashing, have led to super-storms that basically scour anything in their path.
A little farfetched at present, but an interesting scenario. You'd really have to have "Mr. Fusio
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
On the other hand you could just set up really really big radiator fins to help cool th
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Add some "Type R" crop shapes... a few craters for sub woofers and a couple copies of Vegas for lighting and you'd have...
RICER EARTH.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
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Chinas economic success (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm pretty sure it didn't hit Q=1 (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
ITER, which is designed for a Q of 5-10 I think and most definitely for DT plasmas, is supposed to reach first plasma in 2016. I think the first DT plasmas for ITER are scheduled for 2019. The o
Net gain not the obstacle! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Net gain not the obstacle! (Score:5, Funny)
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
No, actually niether has been demonstrated - ITER is intended to do so. (Among other things.)
No - ignition means achieving fusion. What you call ignition is called a self sustaining
Re:Net gain not the obstacle! (Score:5, Informative)
The figure shows 2 points inside the solid line, and 15 points between the solid line and the broken line. Figure 13.13 on the facing page is a similar plot, showing inertial confinement experiments rather than magnetic confinement. However, 13.13 lacks the lines showing the two breakeven points.
Allow me to repeat the particularly relevant phrases (emphasis mine):
Direct from a credible source. Now, perhaps Dunlap is wrong. Credible sources have been quite wrong in the past and will be in the future. However, you'd best have a stronger argument than "no you're a poopyhead" if you expect anyone to believe you.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
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Everyone will be doing it soon... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Everyone will be doing it soon... (Score:4, Funny)
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Xinhua? (Score:2)
what they are not telling us (Score:3, Funny)
The scientists called the device "the first of its kind in operation in the world", but the report did not specify what tests it had passed.
Xinhua cited the scientists as saying that deuterium and tritium atoms had been fused together at a temperature of 100 million degrees Celsius for nearly three seconds. - what they are not telling us is that their sofistimacated gizmotron is based on a Yin Yang Dragon technology, which employs 500,000,000 manual workers, each one only having to heat up one atom by 1/5th of a degree by applying the power of the Chi.
Since the labor for all the labor only cost about $5 total, the reactor was able to produce an energy surplus, a feat previously considered to be improbable.
Awsome (Score:3, Insightful)
I hope the test was practical in nature, and will lead to useful contributions from China towards the achievement of practical fusion power.
This is good news. I look forward to following China's future progress and contributions.
A Small Step (Score:4, Informative)
Though ITER is being built soon, it's being designed as its going up. I'm involved with creating an H- ion beam to inject the plasma (called neutral beam injection). The idea is to fire a high energy beam of neutral hydrogen into the plasma to heat it up (neutral so the atoms can travel through the containment magnets without deflection).
So even if the Chinese managed to build a reactor that beats previous records, it's a long while before fusion powers your home. Nevertheless I consider Fusion research to be one of the most important fields; it takes no imagination to understand what it would mean if nations could be powered on water.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Water (both freshwater for agriculture, drinking, etc. and access to navigable water for trade) has been a vital resource over which wars are fought longer than oil (and, like oil, its been a big factor motivating or complicating Middle East conflicts, including providing a significant part of the motivation for Iraq's wars with Iran and Kuwait, and a complicating factor in resolving the Israel/Palestine problem.)
In Communist China.. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Containment? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Containment? (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Containment? (Score:4, Informative)
The new part is the fact that it uses superconducting magnets. Tokamaks have been used since the 70's.
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Re:Containment? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Containment? (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course I somehow doubt that. After all, photoelectric solar panels are already close to their maximum possible energy effeciency. We could get far better effeciency out of them if we put them in orbit and beamed the power back, given that doing so would get around the problems associated with the atmosphere, but our current space program doesn't even come close to adequate for such a task.
For a point of comparison, fusion is already hitting breakeven. So much for "wasted" money these past thirty years, eh? The fact that something takes time and effort does not make it worthless.
If you seriously want power from sunlight, burn oil or coal. After all, the energy in fossil fuels comes from sunlight introduced into the biosphere millions of years ago. In fact one could argue that fossil fuels are the worlds oldest natural solar battery. And unlike solar energy, which loses much in transmission, oil is easily transportable. You can extract and use it in places where the sun doesn't shine.
Of course, it also burns dirty as hell. Even ignoring climate change, burning fossil fuels releases all sorts of crap into the air, from heavy metals, to soot, to radioactives. But lord knows, if you want to utilize that "fusion reactor up in the sky", you can do so today for all your energy needs - no fancy new tech required.
Plus, who ever said fusion and solar were incompatible solutions? Governments spend a pittance on both of them (yeah it sounds like a lot, but look at their overall budget for comparison), so impling that they favour one over the other is utter rubbish. If you want to get really technical, some of the budget for the space program over the past decades paid for solar panel development, as well as things like fuel cell technology, so it's hardly as though green power has been ignored.
We can pursue solar power in the mean time without the assistance of the governement - go out and buy some for your own use, get your home off the grid (assuming you haven't done so already). No new R&D is required to make solar a viable partial solution to our energy needs, and at the same time, there is little R&D that could ever turn it into a full solution. Conversely we cannot pursue fusion power in the same fashion - the goals are too long term for the private sector to be interested in. Your point is a classic false dichotomy.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
While I agree with most of your post, I question this:
"...photoelectric solar panels are already close to their maximum possible energy effeciency..."
my understanding is that current PV cells are only around 30% efficient. This suggests to me that there is large room for improvement.
'No new R&D is required....'
This is so true. we don't need to wait for a magic bullet. We already have the technological solutions to our energy problems - we just lack the political and social will to implement the necessar
Efficiency of photovoltaics (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Containment? (Score:4, Funny)
You, Sir, have just invented another way of telling people where to "stick it". I salute thee.
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America Syndrome (Score:3, Funny)
Re:more energy than it consumed (Score:4, Informative)
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But technically yes, when you talk about fusion reactors you should say "converted more energy from mass than it took to fuse said mass". So the phrasing from the article/summary is technically in error, but most people who know their physics can grasp wha
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, you don't lose mass when you burn something. Chemical combustion converts potential chemical energy into heat, but the end products mass as much as the starting ones.
Actually, you always lose relativistic mass when you release potential energy. A gallon of gasoline is more massive than the sum of the masses of its individual atoms (but not by much), due to the electromagnetic potential energy of the chemical bonds. By general relativity, any place in space with a nonzero mass or energy density
Re:This answers that old question (Score:4, Funny)
A better question would be how they managed to cram everyone in China into the same place at the same time. Methinks someone used a "noclip" cheat
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Re:Here's an additional press release, more info (Score:5, Informative)
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