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New Generation of Hydrogen Fuel Cells Powers Up
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:22 AM
from the juiced dept.
from the juiced dept.
An anonymous reader writes "A safer and more practical way of storing and releasing hydrogen, discovered by two Arizona State University researchers, could lead to a new type of fuel cell capable of packing 10 times more energy. The key is apparently using the alkaline compound borohydride — 'a 30% solution of borohydride in water actually contains one-third more hydrogen than the same volume of liquid hydrogen.'"
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Hydrogen Won't Save Our Economy 723 comments
anaesthetica writes "Physorg.com is featuring a story asserting that hydrogen is economically infeasible as a replacement for our current energy sources. The premise is that isolating and converting hydrogen into a usable energy source takes up a great deal of energy to begin with, and that subsequently converting that hydrogen fuel into usable energy results in an overall efficiency of only about 25%. Apparently, the increasing scarcity of water is going to make hydrogen too costly and just as politicized as oil." From the article: "[Fuel cell expert Ulf Bossel's] overall energy analysis of a hydrogen economy demonstrates that high energy losses inevitably resulting from the laws of physics mean that a hydrogen economy will never make sense. The advantages of hydrogen praised by journalists (non-toxic, burns to water, abundance of hydrogen in the Universe, etc.) are misleading, because the production of hydrogen depends on the availability of energy and water, both of which are increasingly rare and may become political issues, as much as oil and natural gas are today."
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Chemical info on Borohydride (Score:5, Informative)
This is still in the research/development phase as per the article "Dr. Gervasio recognises that there are still many steps between his prototype and a competitively priced, off-the-shelf, battery-sized fuel cell. Nevertheless, he believes they could appear in power-hungry devices such as laptops, camcorders, and radios within five years." So until then, I'll be using CnH2n+2 to mow my lawn. [watching-grass-grow.com]
Re:Chemical info on Borohydride (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Chemical info on Borohydride (Score:5, Informative)
The best, though, is that you can use any mixture of the two in existing vehicles with zero modifications* using the existing fuel storage, distribution and dispensing infrastructure.
(* Rich Biodiesel blends may require additives or fuel preheaters for cold weather climates to prevent clouding.)
=Smidge=
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/
"biodiesel can reduce the carcinogenic properties of diesel fuel by 94%"
Biodiesel exhaust != Diesel exhaust.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The
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Re:Chemical info on Borohydride (Score:4, Informative)
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go use some more electricity that was pushed onto the wires by the local power plant that runs on solar-powered uranium.
Parent
In other news (Score:4, Funny)
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There are two goals of the hydrogen economy: to divorce ourselves from the *necessity* of oil, and to increase overall system efficiency. There's a long way to go, but things like this are definitely progress.
Carbon (Score:4, Funny)
Maybe I'm just a kook, but some serious work ought to go towards that sort of research, I think.
Re:Carbon (Score:5, Interesting)
Well for one thing, Sodium borohydride the fuel we are discussing has a HIGHER energy capacity then hydrogen-carbon compounds and has a HIGHER stability - less likely to burn).
It is in most cases a far better fuel than hydrogen-carbon compounds like gasoline.
The only reason we use gasoline is that oil is, despite new issues, still very plentiful. As we use it up, that will change.
Parent
Energy density (Score:5, Interesting)
In the article, they state the energy density of this new fuel is 600 watt hours / litre, with the goal of eventually getting it up to 2200.
According to wikipedia, gasoline has an energy density of 32 megajoules per litre, which if I did the conversion right, comes out to about 8890 watt hours / litre. This sounds like a big difference until you consider that gas engines are typically somewhere around %20-30 efficient. It appears they may some day make a fuel that's roughly equivalent to gasoline.
Parent
Re:Energy density (Score:4, Interesting)
Instead of going 100% hydrogen or 100% [fossil fuel], you get more power & lower emission by running a combination.
Right now there is at least one company that sells a kit for large diesels which electrolyzes hydrogen (from water) on the spot & injects it along with the diesel fuel.
That system provides relatively small amounts of hydrogen, but this researcher [abc.net.au] claims 60:40 hydrogen:diesel hits the sweet spot..
Parent
Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, please (Score:3, Insightful)
How does a mixture of Borohydride(not pure hydrogen) and Water(which is already only 2/3 hy
drogen) end up being more hydrogen than Liquid Hydrogen? Isn't Liquid Hydrogen pure hydrogen?
If I am ignorant, educate me....but this sorta reminds me of the line from Anchorman:
"60% of the time it works 100% of the time"
Help me understand.
dimes
Re: (Score:2)
I don't know the math behind it, but by starting from something that's naturally denser it seems at least possible to have more hydrogen in it. It'll probably weigh more.
Can anyone spot-check this for sanity?
Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas (Score:5, Funny)
Can anyone spot-check this for sanity?
I dont know about you, but room temperature around here is a bit more then 0C, so 'round here our water is in it's liquid form at room temperature.
Parent
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Ignoring the solid-water gaffe (assuming your air-conditioning simply isn't turned down too low...)
Liquid hydrogen has to be cold. It's not like, say, propane or butane which will liquefy under pressure even at room temperature - liquid hydrogen's boiling point is sufficiently low that if you pressurise the gas at room temperature, all you get is a pressurised gas.
Useful for storing smaller quantities of h
Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas (Score:2)
drogen) end up being more hydrogen than Liquid Hydrogen? Isn't Liquid Hydrogen pure hydrogen?
They're saying there's more Hydrogen in the mixture per unit volume then pure hydrogen. So I'm guessing (most likely incorrectly) that their substance has a higher density then liquid hydrogen. Higher density => More 'Stuff' per volume => More Hydrogen.
Course I could be wrong.
Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
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Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
This is actually a very interesting question. Let's see if I can get this right:
Each atom has positively charged nucleus and a bunch of electrons, so the whole thing is neutral. The more electrons we have the bigger the attraction force. Thus, while the diameter of the atom grows with element number it does so only slowl
Not Cars, But Laptops (Score:2)
I assumed from the title that this article was about cars, but it turns out to be even more interesting because it's talking about laptops and portable devices instead.
Title confused me (Score:2)
I read that first as a new ___ that generages Hydrogen Fuel Cells, and they are about to power it up for the first time! I guess I ought to try that coffee stuff, or maybe drink more of what comes out of fuel cells.
For the non-fuel cell people. (Score:2, Insightful)
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Give in to our nuclear overlords. (Score:5, Insightful)
Is nuclear that bad? We have known the properties of the splitting atom for decades now... we should have a good understanding of how to utilize this abundant resource. The waste is manageable. Is the waste of a coal plant manageable? Once you spew all that C0_2 and other by-products into the atmosphere there is no (sane) way to recapture it.
Nuclear is our future. Give in to our nuclear overlords.
Parent
Re:For the non-fuel cell people. (Score:5, Funny)
The act of storing, transporting or using energy in any way involves waste (heat).
Oil & coal happen to be pretty decent storage mechanisms--relatively little waste while in storage, but somewhat difficult to recharge and creating it is quite wasteful.
So, if you are just talking about "Consuming" the energy, hydrogen is much more efficient and clean than oil. If you take into account the production of the energy as well, that's a different story. We'll have to set up some bogs and find some dinasours and wait a while before we can compare.
Parent
Re:For the non-fuel cell people. (Score:4, Funny)
Might I suggest looking in our various legislative bodies?
KFG
Parent
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Wasteful compared to what? With a variety of thermal chemical conversion processes, it is quite possible to convert biomass into crude oil quickly (hours) and efficiently - 85% or more of the potential energy in the biomass comes out as useful fuel, with the remainder going to sustain the process and to losses.
=Smidge=
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That may be one of the major things, but I'd say the biggest is that with existing fuel cells, you're required to have pure hydrogen as a fuel. I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have something that is likely to explode around me. This will really help out in that respect.
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Energy density (Score:3, Funny)
Not New (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm not sure that's right (Score:2)
http://tinyurl.com/fa3oj [tinyurl.com] (Science Direct)
The original research paper states "The proposed fuel-cell system offers applications longevity owing to its more concentrated (up to 10 wt% H2) hydrogen storage than found with H2 stored under common tank pressures or in typical metal hydrides."
Is the storage of liquid hydrogen considered a "common tank pressure"? I wouldn't think so. The big deal about this technology is that it stores the hydrog
Nuts and Volts for Nerds (Score:2)
"The researchers can now run the hydrogen generator on a 15% solution of borohydride, half-way to their goal of a truly power-packed 30% solution."
Half a solution? Not 10X but would disrupt LiOn market at the promising 10X potential.
Anyone want to explain the difference between this apparent wet technology and LiOn dry storage technology?
NaBO2 - Is it dangerous? (Score:2)
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How difficult is NaBO2 to deal with, and can it be dangerous/toxic?
From Batteries Digest [batteriesdigest.com]:
The only other reaction product, sodium metaborate (analogous to borax), is water-soluble and environmentally benign.
Bad math? (Score:2)
So, it contains 33% more hydrogen but it ends up being 1000% more energy?
I don't get it.
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Sounds good, but (Score:2, Funny)
New generation? (Score:3, Insightful)
Hmmm ... (Score:5, Interesting)
There is also the question of lifespan and cycling. While the liter of fluid requirement can be worked around, long term issues such as cleanliness of the proces with regards to catalyst maintenance. I'd be cautios about using the phrase "halfway there" just becuase they are using half the percentage of solution they are looking for. While they are at 15% vs 30%, they are also at 600Wh versus the 2200 claimed in the article. Granted, that's theortical maximum, but the effective use of 30% solution is also theoretical.
How to hydrogenate borax? (Score:2)
"Borax can be hydrogenated back into borohydride fuel by several different techniques, some of which require nothing more than water and electricity or heat. These techniques are still in active development."
It seems that when the Borohydride fuel is used up, you are left with Borax, which you can buy at the grocery store.
So how exactly does one hyrdogenate Borax to turn it back into Borohydride fuel? Because it would be way cool if my c
Re:yawn..... (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
For that matter.... (Score:2)
{...shhh!, not everybody got that....}