Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments
Search

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Slashdot Log In

Log In

Create Account  |  Retrieve Password

Seagate Announces First Hybrid Hard Drive

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:38 PM
from the closer-to-instant-gratification dept.
Upgrades Hardware
writertype writes "Today, Seagate announced about a dozen new products, including its first hybrid laptop hard drive that includes a 256-Mbyte flash chip to save power and speed up the time a notebook recovers from hibernation. Interestingly, the new Momentus 5400 PSD has also exceeded earlier estimates of hybrid hard-drive performance, which said that such drives would add an extra hour to the typical battery life of a notebook PC."
+ -
story
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.

Seagate Announces First Hybrid Hard Drive 50 Comments More /

 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.

  • Tax deduction? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Alex P Keaton in da (882660) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @12:39PM (#15488682) Homepage
    Will these qualify me for a tax deduction?

  • Yes, but how many LOC? (Score:5, Funny)

    by hoggoth (414195) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @12:43PM (#15488710) Journal
    > Seagate's pushbutton drive is capable of storing all of the following, combined: a 25-DVD movie collection, 15,000-song music collection, 15,00-photo image library, 50-hours worth of video, and 50 computer games, with 300GB left over

    Bah, these measurements tell me nothing.
    How many Libraries Of Congress can I store on this thing?! That's what I need to know!

    • Re:Yes, but how many LOC? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Pantero Blanco (792776) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @01:02PM (#15488867)
      Seriously. 15,000 songs in midi format, 15,000 50x50 photos, 50 hours of low-bitrate video, and 50 text adventures don't take up much space at all.

      I always wonder how they're counting the "DVD movies"...Raw and untranscoded? Transcoded to a 700MB avi? A direct copy of the DVD to your hard drive?

      • Here's the math... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by codemaster2b (901536) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @02:44PM (#15489633)
        These were their working definitions:
        - 4 games/8GB or 2GB/game
        - 8hrs video/8GB or 1GB/hr video
        - 133 hrs music/8GB or 60MB/hr or 128kbit
        - 2560 photos/8GB or 3.2MB/photo


        Thus here is the math: - 750GB HDD - 300 GB left over
        - 450 GB HDD = 15000 songs + 1500 photo + 50hrs video + 50 games + 25 DVDs
        - 450 GB HDD = 60GB songs + 5GB photo + 50GB video + 100GB games + 25 DVDs
        - 235 GB HDD = 25 DVDs
        - 1 DVD = 9.4 GB

        I guess they really mean it. Of course, the only way you're going to get a DVD onto your hard drive is through... um... antiquated software.

  • Will it work? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Umbral Blot (737704) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @12:44PM (#15488716) Homepage
    Hibernation works by writing the contents of the RAM to the hard drive, so this would only work if you had = 256 MB RAM. I don't think too many new systems meet that requirement, and even less will after Vista comes out. Similarly if you want to save time on boot-up you would need to store all the necessary system files in that space, and few modern operating systems can cram themselves into that space.

    • Re:Will it work? (Score:5, Informative)

      by ThisNukes4u (752508) * <tcoppi AT gmail DOT com> on Wednesday June 07 2006, @12:49PM (#15488768) Homepage
      But if you have 512mb of RAM, and even if only half of that is in the flash memory after hibernation, you're still saving ~ half the ammount of data that would otherwise have to be written and read from the disk, which is more likely than not a very substantial speedup and power savings versus no flash memory at all.

      • Re:Will it work? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by FireFury03 (653718) <slashdot@nexusDALIuk.org minus painter> on Wednesday June 07 2006, @01:03PM (#15488873) Homepage
        When you hibernate, much of the stuff in memory can be dumped to the swap partition rather than to the "hibernate file". This means that on resume it can be swapped back in at a later time when it's actually needed rather than swapping it all in at once. So it's very likley that all the stuff that actually needs to be loaded immediately at resume time can fit into the flash memory.

        What I want to know is what's the point in integrating the flash into the hard drive rather than just having it as an independent device that can be used how the software sees fit?
        • What I want to know is what's the point in integrating the flash into the hard drive rather than just having it as an independent device that can be used how the software sees fit?

          That requires software modification. As we know, most users are running either the current incarnation or the previous incarnation of Microsoft Windows. A change to Windows that would use such a device would be two versions out, which means three PC lifecycles before said seperate flash device has any signifigant market share.

          In o
            • Virtualizing devices is something that is easy to do in a device driver.

              Tasks that require knowledge of what data means without cooperation from the software generating the IO are difficult or impossible to do in a device driver depending on the task. It would be hard, where hard is a relative term in the context of software raid being easy, to accelerate hibernation in a block device driver. It would be impossible to do it well.

              Yes, I write storage device drivers for a living, and have personally implement
        • What I want to know is what's the point in integrating the flash into the hard drive rather than just having it as an independent device that can be used how the software sees fit?
          Compatibility and ease of integrating into existing systems I'd assume.

          • Suspend2 for Linux will do lzo compression before writing to disk. Also, I believe they're moving towards being able to store/resume an image to/from anywhere, and have the resume operation be triggered in userspace (from an initrd).

            Also, with a fair amount of memory on a laptop and a good filesystem (or Laptop Mode on Linux), you don't need this Flash device to avoid using the disk. Problem is, I've never really gotten it to cache much of the music, although it will avoid writing until it has to, even if

    • drives are faster, too (Score:5, Interesting)

      by SuperBanana (662181) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @01:11PM (#15488940)
      Hibernation works by writing the contents of the RAM to the hard drive, so this would only work if you had = 256 MB RAM. I don't think too many new systems meet that requirement, and even less will after Vista comes out

      Not to mention your average notebook hard drive these days is fully capable of pushing 20+MB/sec for the linear read a "resume" requires, unless the hibernation file is fragmented. Even fairly expensive media like Sandisk Compact Flash "Extreme III" cards for digital cameras can't hit that, and one of those (1GB) costs about the same as a 100GB hard drive. Silly.

      My Macbook by default hibernates, but I found a setting to flip that off so that it "sleeps" like it should (involve the 'defaults' command, I forget exactly.) Now it takes about 2 seconds to 'wake up'. Ironically enough, hibernation takes longer than it takes to boot (about 25-30 seconds) and the scale has probably been tipped even further in favor of "booting" with another GB of ram I just added; by my rough calculation it'd take well over a minute if most memory was in use at time of hybernation (maybe the OS clears out all disk cache before doing it- you'd hope so.)

      Hibernation is for when your battery is pretty much dead and the laptop wakes up to hibernate before it looses the contents of RAM due to battery failure...and can people REALLY not wait the time it takes to boot or wake up from hibernation and copy the data back into RAM? Yeesh.

      This seems like an attempt to save themselves in a market they're just not competitive in. From all accounts I've seen (and personal experience), Seagate's ATA-drive reliability is in the trashcan these days; the 7200.8 was a fiasco, and the 7200.9 doesn't seem much better. IBM sold off their drive business (which was a market leader in almost all segments) after the Deskstar/Deathstar fiasco, but Hitachi seems to be doing fabulously. I had a 7200.9 300GB drive that died within 12 hours of operation. It's been RMA'd, and the replacement will be sold on Craigslist or similar. In the meantime, a shiny new, cheaper, cooler-running, quieter Samsung Spinpoint is sitting in its place.

      I think Seagate has seen the writing on the wall- hence the merger with Maxtor. I would imagine you'll see them merge Seagate/Maxtor technology in their ATA line and sell exclusively under Maxtor, and Seagate will go back to being a mostly SCSI brand, as their reputation there seems intact.

      • Congrats, your post gives the impression you're basing your opinion of Seagate quality just on a bad experience with one 7200.9 drive. How very scientific and valid your statistics are. StorageReview.com is much more comprehensive.

    • Re:Will it work? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by LnxAddct (679316) <sgk25@drexel.edu> on Wednesday June 07 2006, @01:37PM (#15489150) Homepage
      That is kind of like saying L2 cache is pointless because you can't fit 4 gigs of memory into it. Used wisely, this 256MB could be very useful.
      Regards,
      Steve
        • What distro are you using? Hibernation works pretty much out of the box in Ubuntu Dapper (if it will work at all) and I believe it's also the case for FC5

  • Any benefit to existing laptops? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by WoTG (610710) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @12:45PM (#15488730) Homepage Journal
    The PR blurb is a little light on the details. Does anyone know if there will be speed benefits (or, IMHO, less likely power benefits) for existing laptops? I.e. should I look forward to giving my laptop a bit of a boost with one of these drives? I know that Vista is supposed to have a lot of code to really benefit from hybrid drives... but I imagine that at least some benefits might be available to XP or Linux.

    Does anyone smarter than me know more about these drives?

  • Old objects of lust (Score:5, Funny)

    by also-rr (980579) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @12:47PM (#15488757) Homepage
    This brings back a memory of a very, very, very long time ago when I was fortunate enough to get to touch a computer that had its root filesystem on a 250mb solid state disk, so that it only had to touch the much slower mechanical drives infrequently. For it's day the thing was a monster with speed that made my own systems seem inadequate in every way. So what did we do with all of that raw, untamed power? Played nethack.

  • I'm a bit worried about how long that flash memory is going to last. It's got a limited number of write cycles, and presumably everything going to the drive goes through the flash cache.

    • Re:lifetime of flash? (Score:5, Informative)

      by fredistheking (464407) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @01:15PM (#15488959)
      With defect management it shouldn't matter. There is no way the average number of writes per sector is going to get anywhere near the limit. If a particular sector is getting close, simply switch its address with one that isn't used very often.

      Since Seagate is already defect managing the disk with their firmware, I don't see it being a big challange to have it defect manage the flash as well.

  • What's the difference between a 'hybrid' drive and a drive with a really big cache?
    • Cretin. :)

      The flash on hybrid hard drives is used to store data (say a copy of system RAM when hibernating) after the machine is off...think solid state storage like a USB drive, not solid state like system RAM.

    • What's the difference between a 'hybrid' drive and a drive with a really big cache?

      The article highlights faster resume times from hibernation. In that case the power has been off, which would empty the cache.

    • What's the difference between a 'hybrid' drive and a drive with a really big cache?

      Cache is volatile, flash memory in a hybrid drive isn't. Thus a hybrid drive could save time when you boot, while a large cache won't.

  • Death of Harddrives? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Billosaur (927319) * <wgrotherNO@SPAMoptonline.net> on Wednesday June 07 2006, @12:51PM (#15488782) Journal

    The Momentus 5400 PSD is Seagate's first hybrid hard drive, incorporating 256 Mbytes of flash memory that serves as a fast cache for booting and saving data. When booting the PC, the operating system loads data from the flash memory first, speeding bootup times and negating the need to quickly spin up the drive, a power-consuming process.

    Given the rapid pace of development of flash memory, how long until hard drives are gone altogether? It would seem the breakout of flash memory in the marketplace is bringing us one step closer to relaible instant-on systems, with none of the tedious waiting for drives to spin up.

    • Re:Death of Harddrives? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by flooey (695860) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @01:07PM (#15488900)
      Given the rapid pace of development of flash memory, how long until hard drives are gone altogether? It would seem the breakout of flash memory in the marketplace is bringing us one step closer to relaible instant-on systems, with none of the tedious waiting for drives to spin up.

      I'd imagine that hard drives will go away only once they find something akin to flash that isn't limited in the number of writes. Having a limit of a million writes is completely reasonable for iPods, cameras, and other devices where you do infrequent large writes. Having /tmp, home directories, or so forth on flash memory could burn it out pretty fast, though.

      Having a flash device for the OS and programs and a hard drive for general purpose storage, though, that I could see being feasible in not too long.

      • Re:Death of Harddrives? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Surt (22457) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @01:38PM (#15489153) Homepage Journal
        Some flash is up to about 3 million writes already. At 10 million writes the problem is effectively solved, they'll be able to warranty their flash for continuous writes for about 5 years at that point, matching the warranty on your hard drive.

        The write limit is not going to be the barrier to replacing hard drives for nearly as long as price and size are going to be.
          • You have to factor in defect balancing because you can't come anywhere close to writing the entire memory every 5 seconds. It takes closer to 30 minutes.

    • Probably a good while yet (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Sycraft-fu (314770) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @01:08PM (#15488917)
      Flash is getting better at an amazing rate but it's got a looooong way to go to catch HDs. You need more capacity, much less cost, and also higher speeds. While flash has faster random access, it can't hit the sustained transfer rates of HDs, at least not the normal flash RAM you find for sale everywhere.

      I imagine the hybrid HDs will be the first step. Try and get the best of both worlds. A small flash store for frequently accessed thigns to get lightning fast random access, a large magnetic disk so you don't compramise on storage. Windows Vista is apparantly going to be pushing this rather hard. MS notes support for it as one of the features, and even if you lack a hybrid HD, you can get something similar by giving it a USB flash drive and instructiong Vista to use it as an app cache. Parts of programs are then put on the flash to speed load times.

      I think that's the kind of thing we'l see for a number of years here until flash gets cheaper.

  • I'm not surprised (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 07 2006, @12:53PM (#15488796)
    I've been playing with Damn Small Linux using a 633 MHz pentium motherboard (attic-ware) with a 12 volt power supply and a 256 MB flash card. It uses an average of 1.5 amps. (monitor not included) When my ancient Thinkpad is accessing the hard drive, it draws about 4 amps. Some of the current is driving the LCD but my guess is that when the hard drive is being used, it soaks up about half the power. If you could avoid using the hard drive, you could just about double your battery life compared to what you would get if you were using it all the time.

    Having said the above, it occurs to me that you could use some of the techniques on a regular laptop that Damn Small Linux (DSL) uses. Flash memory can only be written to a finite number of times. In order not to kill the flash memory, DSL runs entirely in memory. (If you want to write to the flash memory, you have to explicitly mount it.) So, if you were to tailor your operating system to avoid using the hard drive the same way DSL avoids using the flash, you should be able to significantly increase your battery life without special hardware.

  • flash memory lifetime? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by techmuse (160085) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @12:59PM (#15488837)
    It used to be that flash memory only worked reliably for a limited number of write cycles. Is this still the case. If not, will this greatly limit the life span of these drives?

    • Re:flash memory lifetime? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by swv3752 (187722) <swv3752NO@SPAMhotmail.com> on Wednesday June 07 2006, @01:44PM (#15489200) Homepage Journal
      Old flash like that in my Zaurus SL550 PDA and older Compact Flash cards have ~100,000 writes. Newer Flash has something on the order of ~1,000,000 writes. As it is used to cache seldom updated things like OS files or hibernate files, it shouldn't be an issue. Mind you, it should have been 1-4Gb instead of 256mb, so that the OS and other useful things could be cached entirely.

  • Does this matter when you have a smart OS? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by mary_will_grow (466638) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @01:00PM (#15488848)
    If you look at "top" closely, you'll see even if only half of your ram is stuffed with porn and chat programs, the kernel is still making use of that remaining RAM. It would be moronic to just leave RAM sitting unoccupied. A lot of it is used for IO buffering, including your hard drive. So why not just use this mechanism? Why is it, from an IO-buffering-OS-user's perspectiive, any different having that info sitting in flash on the hard drive, instead of in your ram?

    OK I guess I can think of a few reasons...

    The flash wont need refresh cycles to keep its data intact, so that gives you a power reduction...
    The flash can still retain its state even when you shut down, so "wakeups" should be faster..
    The hard drive is in charge of the caching, taking some thinky think load off of the CPU.

    but from a performance perspective, it seems that Linux would do better with 256MB of faster, closer, shinier RAM instead of a wad of flash.. Plus your caching mechanism can be improved without having to buy a new hard drive.

  • Flashy Mobiles (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Doc Ruby (173196) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @01:05PM (#15488887) Homepage Journal
    I've got an Dell notebook with only 10GB (IDE) HD. I'd love to replace it with Flash cards. They're about $45:2GB up to 4GB, in multiple formats. A bank of CF/SDIO/USB slots, or just an IDE/whatever adapter, plus the cards, would fit inside the current drive's slot. And offer much better power, weight and heat loads. With hotswappable filesystems, upgradeable in small chunks and pluggable into other devices, carryable in pockets.

    I don't see how <20GB HDs have any place in the portable market anymore (outside of tiny niche multimedia producers), as even $35 80GB HDs are overkill for most people who network, as most everyone does. If every notebook, handheld, iPod, phone and other mobile device used Flash instead of HDs, Flash prices at that industry scale would drop, capacities would multiply, and $5:GB up to 32 or 64GB would be common. While much of the rest of the cost of the device would be lower without extreme measures to accommodate the hungry, inefficient HD.
          • Now that is just what the Doctor ordered!

            Since it was so easy to ask & get, I'm upping the ante, with a better order ;). The board looks like a direct mapping of traces from the IDE to the CF connector, with a few caps and a transistor. How come the many connector/formfactor flavors of Flash don't include native IDE? Then I could just plug multiple cards right into my machine, without $32 extra per card, without the extra space and weight of the PCB adapter?

            And for dessert, how about a fanless PIII/1GHz
          • Those look good, especially the cheap PCMCIA/CF adapters. With a $175 8GB card, I'm probably done.

            I think there is a demand for the benefits. But I also think notebook dealers don't market them (educate the market) because margins are still higher on 2.5" HDs, especially the ones bundled with new notebooks. Just unbundling those HDs opens competition from other HD vendors. And without market education, the unfamiliar products will find only niche markets, which also decreases dealers' economy of monolithic

  • Hydrogen? (Score:3)

    by edmicman (830206) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @01:26PM (#15489024) Homepage Journal
    When can I get a hydrogen fuel cell hard drive? Or does it use regernative kinetic energy from the platters spinning to generate power?
  • 1. Acquire Flash memory. USB or whatever, it doesn't matter.
    2. Insure you have the correct interface connections to the computer (USB port, USB cable, CF/SD drive, weird built-in hybrid device).
    3. Boot Linux
    4. Find location of Flash device. A modern distro will point this out to you on the desktop.
    5. Use your GUI partitioner to define the flash device as your swap space. Be sure you purchased a flash device with size > system ram.
    6. Suspend2Disk really, really fast.

    Also, given a reasonably long up-time, enjoy the perks of a system with high-speed swap space. Applications, data, kernel; whatever! It all gets faster! Be sure to crank up your swappiness value for maximum effect; this'll have Linux swapping out just about everything it can get its hands on.

    Given a modern flash device, with 1 million or so read/write cycles, and defect balancing, even under very high-usage you should get years of use.

  • Huh? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Jeff DeMaagd (2015) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @02:21PM (#15489475) Homepage Journal
    At a max of about 2.5W on write, a notebook hard drive isn't the biggest power draw in a notebook. Idle power is maybe half that.

    You have the screen (flourescent backlight) (likely tens of watts) and the CPU (Intel Core Duo is 31W), probably the GPU too. Cutting the CPU to an LV chip (Core Duo LV is 15W) might give you a two or four more hours, depending on the display and the GPU. Don't tell me that saving one watt is going to save an hour of power on battery time.

  • oh really? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by dirtyhippie (259852) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @04:57PM (#15490583) Homepage
    Samsung forecast that the first hybrid drives would ... reduce power consumption by about 9 percent overall, increasing a notebook's battery life by about an hour.

    Uh... Someone in Samsung's PR division does not realize that the typical laptop does not get 11 hours of battery life. There has got to be a way to hold PR folks accountable for the stupid and wrong things they say.

    • Re:What about maximum read/writes for flash? (Score:5, Informative)

      by flooey (695860) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @12:54PM (#15488806)
      don't some flash memories have limited read/writes far below platter hard drives? something like in the range of a couple thousand I thought... does this mean your hard drive will die even quicker, or will they make these drives eventually have removable and replacable flash cards, such as SD or something?

      It's unlimited reads, but limited writes, so assuming you're using it to store OS code, the limited writes probably won't be a major problem. The limitation is usually in the low millions as well.
    • Most commercially available flash memory has a limitation of about 1 million rewrites. A better solution to this, rather than putting the flash memory in the hard drive: Put a flash card, removable and upgradable similar to how RAM is on a laptop, and mount it as your Suspend To Disk partition. Except, well, that doesn't work well on windows, I don't think... Then again, I've never used Windows on a laptop. Something else that would benefit from Flash rather than hard drive, is virtual memory.... reduce s

    • Re:What about maximum read/writes for flash? (Score:4, Informative)

      by cyngus (753668) on Wednesday June 07 2006, @01:09PM (#15488921)
      Its true that there are a limited number of writes, but its also not necessarily a fatal probelm. As bits in the flash memory fail, you can mark them as unavailable. This will shrink your solid state cache over time, but it will allow you to keep working until the physical disk fails. Very graceful degredation.

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2009 Geeknet, Inc.