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BBC Tests Pre-Commercial Toshiba Fuel Cell Laptop

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Wed May 31, 2006 02:15 PM
from the fill-er-up dept.
Power Hardware
nbannerman writes "Fuel cells have been talked about a lot recently, but Toshiba have finally demonstrated a working model. The BBC News website provides some interesting background on fuel cells, but does carrying a warning for the future; 'Toshiba's phase one fuel cell shows how near, but also how far, the version is from being a commercial reality.'"
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BBC Tests Pre-Commercial Toshiba Fuel Cell Laptop 50 Comments More /

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  • Refulling issue? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Kenja (541830) on Wednesday May 31 2006, @02:17PM (#15438111)
    Am I the only one that dosn't want to be wandering around town looking for a means to refull my notebook? The only use I can think of for these things is a flash charger for my existing battery.
    • What do you do when your battery fails now?
      Thats right, wander around until you find fuel(a.h.a Electricity)
        • Sometimes you need a laptop that can run on camel droppings, or wood, or very small rocks, or gravy, or a church... or...

          A duck !

          Sorry, got carried away there...
        • Working at a University helpdesk, I saw a looooot of laptops... all shapes and sizes, young and old. Battery technology has progressed a long way -- but there's only so far it can be pushed. I find the best way to have a long battery life in a modern laptop is to NOT have a giant screen. Too many companies are sticking huge screens on laptops -- adding on to weight AND power consumption. Leave the huge screens to desktops please. As for the Dell laptops having short battery life? I'm guessing they ar
          • i fully agree .. here at work we use Averatec laptops (they are made by MSI/TwinHead)

            we only use the 12in 4lbs models - they get ~3 hours of battery life.. and a spare battery is only around 80$ the laptop around 700$ so all in all sure they could pay 2g's for a laptop with 6 hours of life.. or we can buy cheep (but decent and rugged) laptops and a spare battery for much less.. and if they destroy them (which some have done) i don't feel as bad.

            i know people who have bought dell and alienware laptops.. sure

  • 10 Hours (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ch-chuck (9622)
    A small, plastic, brick-shaped 100 millilitre cartridge with methanol fuel that looks like an ink-jet printer cartridge

    probably costs like an ink-jet printer cartridge too. But all it has to be is 'the best' and a certain class will be lining up to buy carts at $49.95 a pop, on company expense (think petrochemical and pharmaceutical industries).

  • Try getting THAT through airport security.

  • How it works (Score:5, Informative)

    by ylikone (589264) on Wednesday May 31 2006, @02:30PM (#15438203) Homepage
    Fuel cells electrochemically convert fuel into electricity, without bothering with the awkward combustion process that dooms regular engines to inefficiency. The fuel that most currently workable fuel cells run on is hydrogen, which is a bit of a pain to store and transport. A device called a "reformer" can be used to convert methanol and water (much easier to store) into carbon dioxide and hydrogen, but reformer-based fuel cells aren't very efficient, and small models for portable electronic devices are less efficient still. "Direct methanol" fuel cells (DMFCs), on the other hand, run from un-reformed methanol. DMFCs are the things most likely to end up in your laptop or mobile phone. Learn more about fuel cells. [tinyurl.com]

  • Huge (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Tx (96709) on Wednesday May 31 2006, @02:31PM (#15438210) Journal
    In terms of volume, it is around a litre and weighs about as much as the same measure of water.

    I actually thought they were a lot closer than this. From the photo, it actually looks larger than a litre, I'd say closer to 1.4. In any case, fucking huge, and nowhere near practical. They need to shrink it by more than an order of magnitude to be workable.
    • I actually thought they were a lot closer than this.

      I'm not surprised; fuel cell hype is rampant. It's a worthy pursuit but quite a way from actual consumer sales.

      That rather large device shown here is good for 10 hours running a pretty average laptop. The next generation prototype shown is a bit better, and just as unworkable for the bulk of the laptop market; too damn big.

      These are prototypes; give it half a decade of development and it could pay off.

    • Yeah, but have you considered the bonus of being able to use such a battery for self-defense purposes if necessary? You could probably put a good dent in an assailant's skull with that thing...
    • In any case, fucking huge, and nowhere near practical.

      Totally agree with you - I am not about to trade in my laptop for a different computer that has a 1 liter (or larger) fuel canister attached to it. Most of the /. crowd are probably in agreement on this.

      But you know who might find it practical? Anyone in the middle of nowhere, away from electric outlets, away from plugs. Field researchers, for instance, could really benefit from something like this. And powering your laptop or cell phone with a fuel cell

  • Yeah, but what's really cool... (Score:3, Funny)

    by lottameez (816335) on Wednesday May 31 2006, @02:31PM (#15438211)
    ..is that with a small adapter, you could use it to toast marshmallows at work. :-P

    huhmnnhuhhmhh ....marrssssshhhhhmmaaaallloooowwwsssss...huhmnhuh

  • Safety and technology (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 31 2006, @02:34PM (#15438233)
    One of the things that jumped out at me was the thought "wow, this thing is very dependant on technology just to be safe!". From the article:

    The fuel cell is loaded with sensors. When suddenly picked up and shaken, anti-tamper sensors lock down the fuel cell to avoid leaks.

    As it produces heat from the reaction, internal sensors make sure that it does not overheat.

    What of the odds of those various sensors failing (and you know that they will for someone, somewhere) and what kinds of damage is caused when they do?
    • Think about some of the lighters that use butane and other chemicals we tend to carry in our pockets or stuff into a car on a sunny day. With nothing more than a label warning on a box you threw out the moment you opened it.

      If you read up on the method on how the cells work and other technology it may or may not put more confidence in you. Besides, systems fail and dangerous stuff is often carelessly misplaced or misused (I once discovered a Sidewinder missle on a beach). They're going to make it as soun

    • That's because people are paranoid whackos. At least most of them.

      Suppose this thing had a catastrophic failure. You might get a bit of liquid on your pants. It will feel a bit cool and if you wait a few minutes it will all evaporate leaving no trace.

      As for spilling it on your laptop, if you do so consider it an opportunity to wipe the grime buildup off your keyboard. You know all those expensive cleaning solutions? Guess what's in many of them.
    • >"wow, this thing is very dependant on technology just to be safe!"

      You should be hiding under your bed now, shaking, because this isn't very different from the modern lithium-ion batteries:

      The rechargable lithium-ion battery required nearly 20 years of development before it was safe enough to be used on a mass market level

      and

      Since the lithium metal [...] is very reactive and might cause explosion, Li-ion cells usually have built-in protective electronics and/or fuses to prevent polarity reversal, over-vo
  • Forget about ever taking one of thes eon an airplane. Methanol is a self oxygenating liquid, I believe, so it is very volatile.
    Explain that to the airport police..."Really, it is a liquid fuel for my LAPTOP! Ow, that rubber glove doesn't help much for pain does it?"
    • They let you take alcohol on board. Not a lot of difference, really. Except that the alcohol usually comes in a bottle that, when broken, makes an excellent weapon. Far better than, say, an exacto-knife (box cutter in the US).
      • I was blocked from taking a plastic Slurpee cup through security because it might contain an acidic or poisonous fluid -- even though I was drinking from it at the time. I was told that I should go and buy a bottled drink from one of the stores in the airport if I wanted to take a beverage on the plane.
        • They are kind of wild with the rules, aren't they? I've never had trouble in Canada but when I go to the States two random search stations within sight of each other have actually BOTH searched my bags.

          Still, security is fine with hassling individuals, but they don't like to get too uptight with the real paying customers (business people).
  • The thing looks pretty big and heavy, I wonder how a similar size/weight Lithium Ion battery would stack up against it. Is the new technology really better at the moment?
  • This fuel cell system weighs as much and is as large as a 1 Liter bottle of water... and gives 10 hours of charge?!

    Clearly you could have a Lithium ion battery that lasts many more (20? 30?) hours at the same size...

    ...and clearly there has not been any marked for a notebook with a clunky battery- The closest thing to a laptop ever released which emphasizes battery power over weight is the Electrovaya Scribbler [electrovaya.com]- I have the 300 model and can get well over 10 hours out of it!

    Maybe by the 3rd generation (and a decade from now) it will be able to compete with standerd batteries, assuming standard batteries haven't improved by then this technology might be worth a second look (which is unfortunately a possiblity, given the slow progress in battery technology)...
    • But....

      What do you do when your 10-hour Li-ion battery runs out and you're nowhere close to a power source for the next 3 days?

      Would you rather carry 10 of those 5-lb batteries, or one 5-lb fuel cell station and 10 ink jet cartridges?
    • But you can recharge the fuel cell by pouring in some ethanol or whatever you bought from a store whereas you have to plug the lithion battery in for three hours. That is the benefit of a fuel cell, really.
      • But you can recharge the fuel cell by pouring in some ethanol or whatever you bought from a store whereas you have to plug the lithion battery in for three hours. That is the benefit of a fuel cell, really.

        No, that's the problem with fuel cells. You have to go out and buy stuff, whereas you can just plug in your laptop when you're not away from a socket (and power sockets are everywhere). You can use that laptop while it's recharging, you know.

      • Not it if it ends up like ink cartridges, where you pay a lot more for a lot less because you have no alternative, what with vendor lockin and all.

        Perhaps I'm just being pessimistic, but I don't see any reason this won't go the way of ink cartridges.

    • Maybe by the 3rd generation (and a decade from now) it will be able to compete with standerd batteries, assuming standard batteries haven't improved by then this technology might be worth a second look (which is unfortunately a possiblity, given the slow progress in battery technology)...

      Battery technology isn't getting better anytime soon. We've gone from lead to zinc to lithium metals in an attemt to get the most electrochemical potential for the least amount of space/weight. But we're out of periodic

    • A Li-Ion battery and matching charge controller/charge system that size would probably cost you about $5,000, too. I met this scraggly lookin' guy (looks like a BOFH of yore, actually) here in Lake County who claims to have designed the Corbin Sparrow, and he says he's got one that's got water-cooled LiIon batteries... And it's $45,000 worth of Lithium-Ion.
    • Sure a lithium battery as big as a couple bricks would last a very long time; however when you figure that it runs for 10 hours on 100mL of methanol and you can also pack in a 3L bottle of the stuff with your gear and run for 2 solid weeks it makes the fuel cell very attractive for certain applications.

      Why someone is not producing these for laptops even at their current size if they actually work seems absolutely insane to me.
      • hello,

        welcome to slashdot, you are apparently new here.

        I don't think you critically read the article.

        People here don't even read the articles, much less in a critical fashion.

        Maybe you are not new here, and instead just confused. People here are very often critical of the articles that they have not even read... if so, please disregard my email, if not, please add me to your newsletter.

  • Think of the multilayered implications of referring to something based on the chemical properties of distilled methanol and water "vaporware."

  • Doesn't look promising (Score:4, Insightful)

    by cartman (18204) on Wednesday May 31 2006, @03:17PM (#15438614)
    Fuel cells have been promised for a long time now. As an example, I remember that a production fuel-cell car was promised by Mercedes to be available in showrooms by 2001...then 2004...then 2007...then 2009... And we still wait. And there are other examples: laptop makers have also repeatedly promised that fuel cells are right around the corner, with similar results.

    It appears increasingly unlikely that fuel cells will ever happen. Although fuel cell technology continues to improve, the improvement is very gradual. It's not clear that fuel cells are progressing faster than new battery technology, in which case the two will never converge.

    I should also note that the fuel cartridge (100ml) by itself, which powers the laptop for 10 hours, is not that much smaller than a battery. Even if toshiba drastically shrank the size of the surrounding electronics, making the entire cell the same size as a battery, it still would have no advantage. You would still have to carry around extra fuel cartridges (with methanol) for additional power.

    Bear in mind that you wouldn't be able to recharge the cartridge by just pouring in more methanol, or buying new fuel cartridges at a convenience store. Methanol is extremely poisonous even in very small amounts, and medically significant amounts are absorbed through the skin. Therefore the fuel cartridges will require expensive and durable equipment to prevent the leakage of any fuel whatsoever when removed from the laptop. Probably the fuel cartridges will be expensive and will have to be recycled and disposed of properly.

  • windup (Score:2, Interesting)

    by zogger (617870)
    I sort of like the idea of a crank or windup clockwork spring generator for additional electrical supply, like the MIT laptop was originally supposed to have. If it is spring and clockwork, you don't have to wind for a long time, my baygen/freeplay [freeplayenergy.com] radios (they have flashlights, too) you can wind completely up in less than a minute, then they give 30 minutes radio. I know it wouldn't last as long with a laptop, but it would be *some* emergency power as your battery started to go. There's even a foot powered

  • FuelSell Power (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Doc Ruby (173196) on Wednesday May 31 2006, @05:21PM (#15439718) Homepage Journal
    "size, noise and weight"

    The noise from the fuelcell will disappear when microfluidics are used to pump the fuel and exhaust. That will also drop the size (volume), and even the weight. Though 0.792 specific gravity methanol will weigh about 792g (1.75lbs) in the liter capacity, so the total cell will probably continue to weigh about the same. Which is a lot less than the weight of 10h in electric batteries.

    A really interesting gain could come from integrating the cell reservoir with the rest of the volume of the entire notebook. Fill the spaces currently filled with air with fuel (protected of course by a tough insulating/nonflammable layer), and the overall volume of the notebook could remain about the same, especially considering the airfilled shockbarrier protecting LCDs. Clever engineering could circulate the waste heat in the fuel, much as modern car fuelpumps are cooled by the gas in the tank in which they sit. Really clever engineering could harness the waste heat to circulate the fuel not just to the heat exchangers, but also through the pump, for efficiency increase (and heat reduction).

    I expect that Toshiba is already testing its microfluidics version privately. PR like the BBC review will generate excitement for even a clunky first introduction. A quiet, smaller, lighter introduction will exceed those expectations and increase sales with even better reviews.

    Maybe the improvements will only come out from up Toshiba's sleeve gradually. They might patent them early, then introduce them to pump their sales curves. I don't believe they will introduce a noisy fuelcell as early as 6 months from now, so they surely have more than they're demo'ing. Which gives me more confidence that they're going to pull this one off.

    Now if it will just run on sake, and give massages, Toshiba will have retaken the "Personal Computer" from the dull interpreters who have made it a boring commodity.
  • This is really great. Because it runs on methanol, it's going to be fairly affordable [google.com] (at least for short trips to places without any electrical power and potentially very easy to refill - Methanol is also sold as "Wood Alcohol" at your local hardware store. The only real question is the concentration. Most DMFCs [wikipedia.org] (Direct Methanol Fuel Cells) need the methanol to be watered down. The best that I've seen are 99.5% (it had to use a means of recycling the water produced, as the methanol feed can't be more than
    • Dear Tomoaki Arimura (pictured in the linked article), As a general rule, the tip of one's tie should come to about the edge his pants.

      Off-topic of course, but I couldn't help it. Is he trying to polish his shoes with that thing, or...? Sorry, mod me down if you really need to.

      Oh, fuel cells are cool. Your car wants one.
      • what is wrong with batteries?

        Two words: energy density. There is no battery technology currently available or in development, that I know of, which approaches the energy density of petrochemicals or methanol, and probably of compressed hydrogen as well. So there is a lot of interest in producing a compact power source which runs on a high-density fuel, because you could increase the capacity of the computer's power source beyond what would be practical on batteries.

        Right now, it seems like in laptops you ha
        • The big problem with fuel cells is that the real big reason to have a mobile laptop is travel, and there is no way airlines are going to let people get on a plane with fuel, something about explosives...

          I don't know if the laptop companies are thinking about this, but I tend to travel alot by plane with my laptop, and the fuel cells are probably quite dangerous in the wrong hands.
          • I doubt very much that they're any more dangerous than a cigarette lighter. Probably less so, if they use a liquid fuel (methanol) instead of a compressed flammable gas, or a liquid fuel that's pressurized with an inert gas. A bottle of methanol isn't any more dangerous than a bottle of alcohol-based aftershave, high-proof liquor, or spray deodorant. I could imagine that you might not be able to bring the refills on in your carryon baggage, but I'm willing to bet that if they became ubiquitous, being able t
    • You know i was thinking something close..

      you use the meth as a energy storage medium (as it has a higher energy density than Li) it would buffer power through a capasitor to power the laptop but if you plug it in it back charges and converts the waste back in to meth for use later - just like how we use Li batteries

      i am sorry but if i can't plug this thing into an outlet to charge it - it is well worthless

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