Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments
Search

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Slashdot Log In

Log In

Create Account  |  Retrieve Password

Robotic Telesurgery by Remote Surgeons

Posted by Zonk on Fri May 19, 2006 06:37 PM
from the does-it-hurt-when-i-do-*this* dept.
Robotics Science
Roland Piquepaille writes "In a few years, telesurgery performed by multi-armed robots remotely controlled by real surgeons located hundreds or thousands of kilometers away will become commonplace. Today, Canadian doctors from the Centre for Minimal Access Surgery (CMAS) are developing the technology for NASA. Their goal is to build a portable robotic unit that would be used in space missions, war zones and remote areas within five years. So far, the experiments already done in Canada and for NASA are extremely encouraging. But read more for additional details and pictures of a real surgeon controlling such a robot."
+ -
story

Related Stories

[+] Science: Robotic Sense of Touch 56 comments
Aryabhata writes "As per a BBC article, US scientists have created a device that could one day pave the way for robotic hands mimicking human touch. The research team from University of Nebraska in Lincoln hopes to apply this to aid surgery by allowing surgeons to feel the tissue they are operating on. This could help surgeons in distinguishing cancerous or abnormal tissue etc. To demonstrate the device the scientists tried the instrument on a one cent coin and the sensor revealed the wrinkles in President Lincoln's clothing and the letters TY in liberty."
[+] Technology: 3-D Software for 'Virtual Surgery' 59 comments
Roland Piquepaille writes "Computer scientists at Brigham Young University (BYU) have developed a new software tool to perform 'virtual surgery'. This tool, dubbed 'Live Surface,' will allow surgeons to visualize in 3-D any part of a patient's anatomy with just a few clicks of a mouse. Similar software already exists, but according to the Deseret Morning News, Live Surface is interactive and fast. This software can be used for better diagnosis by physicians, but it might even suppress the need for some exploratory surgeries. The researchers add that Live Surface might even been used for special-effects in movies or games by extracting an actor's performance from a video clip."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.

Robotic Telesurgery by Remote Surgeons 50 Comments More /

 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.

  • Problems? (Score:3, Funny)

    by mr-mafoo (891779) on Friday May 19 2006, @06:41PM (#15369721)

    "Oh no! The connection's lagging doctor!"

    "Reconfigure the upstream bandwidth, and re-route all traffic to the backup server!"

    • Better yet, make the robot surgeons web accessible.

      Nurse: "Doctor the robo-surgeon seems to have crashed."
      Doctor: "Look on the display it says, nothing for you to see? What's going on"
      In bursts the network admin exclaiming: "The surgeon he's been... slashdotted!"
    • "Oh no! The connection's lagging doctor!"

      "Reconfigure the upstream bandwidth, and re-route all traffic to the backup server!"

      That's a HUGE user interface problem, actually.

      The best round-trip time you'll get across the Atlantic is about 200ms. When you're expecting immediate feedback, it's an eternity. Not everyone learns how to deal with it very well.

      I'm the author of Unlagged [www.ra.is] for Quake 3 (which is currently the lag compensation technique used in Enemy Territory, if I'm understanding things correctly). It
      • You can do much better than 200ms across the atlantic.

        ~110ms between Sweden and New York right now for example. However it won't ever get much faster than that.
    • This has really got nothing to do with NASA and space stations. Consider the potential for offshoring surgery. Indian/Chinese/whatever surgeons operating telepresence remote bots. All the hospitals will need are a few low-skill orderlies to strap the victims to the tables and give the bot a squirt of oil now and then. Should make for cheaper surgery and better profits for the health insurance companies.

      Sounds like whoring for a funny rating, but not so. There are millions to be saved in surgery bills $20/hr

  • X-Bender: Fry: Stop being such a baby and chop my hands off!
  • ... QoS hooks are in and solid.

    This is a very strong argument for tiered bandwidth - so ISPs can guarantee that surgical waldo packets take priority over, say, downloads of the latest release of an OS or a new movie.

    It's one thing to hiccup when you're handling a VoIP packet. It's quite another when you're handling the content of a feedback loop including a video camera, a surgeon, a scalpel, and a vital organ.
    • Well, since the unit is being developed to perform surgery in space, as well, I imagine they'll be using dedicated video/data links. There's no real mention of what exactly they will be using, but I'd bet that "advanced telecommunications technology" doesn't mean internet.

      SB
      • The space application doesn't guarantee immunity from a big time lag--just the opposite. If NASA wants to use this for missions to the Moon or Mars, there will be a lag, and it will be quite noticible irregardless of how much they pay for their bandwidth.
        • The system would be totally impractical for earth-bound surgeons to use for Mars trips. Even the moon, with a second and half lag one way, would introduce some bad problems.

          But it seems obvious to me, at least, that this would only be usable with dedicated links, and not over the internet, which is what a lot of others seem to be saying here. I doubt very much that any of the engineers involved have even considered using the public internet (at least I hope they haven't! :-)

          SB
        • The space application doesn't guarantee immunity from a big time lag--just the opposite.

          The problem isn't just the lag.

          The problem is lag VARIABILITY and GAPS in data transmission.

          A space application has a fixed time lag and very low packet loss (through forward error correction - to an extreme degree if necessary). In the absense of jitter and the virtual absense of dropped packets, some degree of fixed lag can be taken into account.

          But removing jitter means enough buffering that your resulting fixed lag
          • Please don't use that "word". It's worse than "nukyular." At least nukular has no inherent meaning, whereas "irregardless" implies a double negative meaning: "without lack of regard."

            Actually, it's 100% correct. "Irregardless" is the joculary invective form of "regardless," which is used strictly to show how high-class the speaker is.
      • There's no real mention of what exactly they will be using, but I'd bet that "advanced telecommunications technology" doesn't mean internet.

        A QoS-enabled Internet would work just fine. And it's coming - unless misguided "Net Neutrality" laws throw the baby out with the bathwater.

        There are two aspects to "neutrality" and tiered bandwidth.

        - One is using it to distinguish services that need different levels of support - giving them what they need (and perhaps charging extra if appropriate), but treati
    • Or they could just use Frame Relay.

      *ducks!*

      • Technically, it should be no different than driving the rovers on Mars.

        You take everything as a single indivisible step and don't rush until you know the outcome of the previous one.

        That doesn't work when you're doing surgery. The patient is under stresses that increase the damage to his body and the risk of unsatisfactory outcome (failure of the operation's goal, post-op infection, temporary or permanent impairment, or death) increase with every extra minute the operation takes.

        If you lose packets RCing t
      • Oh yeah no difference at all.

        Mars rover: 40 minutes of lag between steps, and doing something as simple as rotating and rolling wheels based on camera feeback. Coarse grained movements generally okay.

        Surgery: Miniscule accurate movements. If something unexpected happens and the patient starts to bleed getting one thing even slightly wrong kills the patient.

        Only on /.

      • Isn't that What T1, OC3, etc. are for?

        Only if they're a TDM point-to-point or switched connection, or a virtual one using something like ATM. In which case it's not the Internet.

        It's connection-oriented, not packet-oriented (even if it's packets being carried,and they're being switched one at a time.) Connection-oriented networks give you a fixed(-maximum)-bandwidth connection with guaranteed delivery and guaranteed limits on latency and jitter.

        Packet switched networks can emulate this, but ONLY with QoS

  • Awesome. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by RoffleTheWaffle (916980) on Friday May 19 2006, @06:49PM (#15369757) Journal
    Now we can outsource the medical field to India, too. *rimshot*
    • Now we can outsource the medical field to India, too.

      If they outsource my doctor, my automechanic, and my plumber to lower bills, THEN maybe I could start to compete with $4/hr. Indian programmers. Spread The "Love"!
           
    • I had John McCarthy (LISP fame) as a prof for a quarter. He'd talk about all sorts of crazy stuff-- planes that land on perches outside your house, or skilled labor being outsourced to India and such via the use of remotely controlled robots. Well, sure, it didn't help that his example case was haircutting instead of surgery, but he was on the right track. :)
  • Probably already been stated, but I can see it now...

    Doctor [Scalpel] Patient
    Doctor: WTF LAG

  • Trouble (Score:4, Funny)

    by tocs (866673) on Friday May 19 2006, @07:03PM (#15369826)
    Oh no, I thought the scalpel was moving away from the patient!!!
      • September 7, 2001 - ZEUS robotic system developed by Computer Motion was used in the trans-Atlantic operation. A doctor in New York removed the diseased gallbladder of a 68-year-old patient in Strasbourg, France.

        Apparently these guys are. I believe this [pbs.org] is the story you heard...
  • As a med student and sysadmin I just wondered over a couple of potentially isues

    What the maximum allowed network latency and thereby the maximum allowed operation distance be? Could somebody come with an answer?
    will it do for spacetravel?
    I mean they had to make the marsrovers autonomously, due to transmitting time.

    They say they will take it to the battlefield. Come on it is monstreus piece of equipment, with a weight of approx a ton. For what reason wil they take it to the battlefield.
    Not enough surgeons available at the frontline military service?
    They will still need staff at operation ward, nurses anesthesiologist and so on.

    We have a few of these robots at the university hospitals. Normally we have a group of surgens stading by just in case things goes wrong. We do not trust the machine totally.

    I really do hope they are hackerproff. What and opportunity to blackmail people.
    "Pay me or your husbend will end up without his left kneecap. Your VISA number please"

    Regards Rune
    • What the maximum allowed network latency and thereby the maximum allowed operation distance be? Could somebody come with an answer?

      I wonder if it would depend on the doctor. Network FPS games seem to be a decent analogue to this with regards to latency. Some players adapt just fine, and others never really get it.

      It's not such a big deal now that all of them implement client-side prediction (which a surgical system might be able to do), but back in the days of Quake 1, it was a huge differentiator.

  • Personally.. (Score:3, Funny)

    by Kelz (611260) on Friday May 19 2006, @07:39PM (#15369985)
    I'm paying my doctor too much already to allow HIM to telecommute.

  • Advantages and disadvantages... (Score:3, Informative)

    by kcbrown (7426) <slashdot@sysexperts.com> on Friday May 19 2006, @07:39PM (#15369992)
    Advantages: robotics can be extremely precise. If programmed properly, it can compensate for any twitchiness on the part of the operator.

    But the disadvantages are significant: the feel isn't the same as performing the surgery for real. Now, for certain types of surgery that problem isn't a problem, but the human hand is actually quite sensitive to pressures and other types of feedback that I'm sure are quite invaluable to a surgeon (IANAS, however). A machine can provide some of that feedback through the link but the amount of feedback will be limited by the sensory capability of the machine.

    So, like many things, I can see this being useful for a relatively limited set of surgical operations, while for others "being there" will remain necessary.

    That said, if I have to choose between having this and having nothing at all (a battlefield comes to mind for such a situation), I'd rather have this and I'll take my chances with the limitations...

  • What will Bones think when he's replaced by a hologram [wikipedia.org]?!
  • and robotic arms? Are there secret Mech bases out there in the tundra or something? Well I for one welcome our remotely controlling, Molson dispensing overlords, eh.

  • da vinci system (Score:3, Informative)

    by VoidEngineer (633446) on Friday May 19 2006, @08:23PM (#15370151)
    For more information on telerobotic surgery systems (they're a few years old now):

    http://www.teleroboticsurgeons.com/ [teleroboticsurgeons.com]
    http://www.teleroboticsurgeons.com/davinci.htm [teleroboticsurgeons.com]
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd= Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1471286 6 [nih.gov]

  • Voice: forceps please ...

    Background: blip blip blip

    Voice: Good ...

    Background: blip blip blip

    4#@@#*()(*&&^^
    NO CARRIER

    Background: bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep

  • Wouldn't simply Robotic Telesurgery be an appropriate title? Wouldn't simply Robotic Telesurgery be an appropriate title?
  • I wouldn't want to get that done on me if I worked for Blue Security. Imagine a Russian spammer getting tip off from a buddy. A DDoS and surgeons will see "Buffering..please wait.."
  • The doctor will be in a call center in some low-wage country, of course.
  • One huge advantage of such a system is that one could write a human surgery simulator much easier than one could construct a robust, responsive physical simultation of a human under surgery. Doctors can have done 100 surgeries almost exactly like the real thing (and have watched "virtuoso" recordings of past surgeries) before ever putting a patient's life on the line.

  • h@ck3d (Score:3, Funny)

    by Tablizer (95088) on Friday May 19 2006, @11:56PM (#15370736) Homepage Journal
    All your spleen are belong to us
  • I didn't RTFA, but a thorassic surgeon I know told me that using a waldo in lung surgery can be very useful, because the machinery can scale down your motions, making it possible to perform extremely precise, tiny cuts and stitches, etc; for some operations a waldo is indispensible, apparently. I have to admit that this doesn't have much to say about the idea of remote operation, but I, for one, will welcome our scalpel-wielding aluminum overlords when I need some surgery.

    • (except perhaps at wildly inflated prices)

      What makes you think that this is going to be cheap?? The only robotic surgery on the market (Da Vinci) is so expensive that people question whether it actually saves people any money even though recovery time is quicker. Not to mention the training involved. Da Vinci was such a radically different way of performing surggery that it took a long time for doctors to get used to the devices. Doctors actually had to abort surgeries because of the complexities. No,

    • You're forgetting the lawyers, though. Can you imagine what malpractice lawyers are going to think? Imagine them trying to sue a doctor who botched a remote surgery in a country with no kind of extradition treaty! I think that the trial lawyers of America would fight this more than the doctors if the goal is to "internationalize" medicine. Allowing remote surgeries will completely screw up many lawyer's ability to go for those higly lucrative malpractice lawsuits if the doctor is outside of the country's borders. But I'll bet that they would fight like crazy to allow it to be used domestically where the doctor and patient are both in the same country because of the ease of filing a lawsuit.

      Personally, with the exception of minor, routine surgery, there is no frickin' way I'd want anyone but a real doctor and real nurses right there with me. Even the slightest possibility of a network dropout while the scalpel is cutting is terrifying to say the least. I don't care how much redundancy there is between me and the remote doctor. There is no way to 100% guarantee a solid connection at any given time, although I'm sure that a number of /.ers would like to try to convince me otherwise. At least with a doctor right there I can hear him say, "Oops!" instead of trusting some doctor who can mute his microphone from a thousand miles away -- and, damn it, they better guarantee <1 ms response time! :)

      Honestly, I think that you asked the right question, but you asked it the wrong way.
      • At least with a doctor right there I can hear him say, "Oops!" instead of trusting some doctor who can mute his microphone from a thousand miles away -- and, damn it, they better guarantee I don't know if I were to wake up and hear the doctor say opps during my surgery I would have to think it would be because I woke up in the middle of my surgery.
    • Even at 300,000km, you'd get a full second of lag. Do you want your doctor to lag that much?

      Or do the aliens control the surgeons using tachyons? Though that doesn't help asymptotically. (I'd like a log log(n) travelling algorithm, though.)
    • AMEN! I've been able to avoid major surgery my whole life, and I can just picture all the things that can go wrong during a live operation, much less during a "teleoperation." And think of the liability issues. You think it's hard getting service for your computer ("It's the software!" "No, it's the hardware!" etc. etc) just imagine having to sue the hospitals at both ends, the doctor(s), the hardware manufacturers, the network admins, the ISPs, etc., none of whom admit to any error on their part.

      Unless

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2009 Geeknet, Inc.