Electric Companies Get Involved With Broadband 221
Billosaur writes "The Marketplace Morning Report on NPR has an interesting piece on how electric companies are getting into the high-speed Internet business with 'Broadband over Power Lines', or BPL." From the article: "By purchasing the right equipment power companies can quickly offer Internet service to millions of new customers. There are several pilot projects being launched in the US, including one in the Pittsburgh suburb of Monroeville. That service is being offered by Duquesne Broadband -- a spinout of the local power company.'"
Please wake me when it's done... (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have both, but please... quit trying to get my hopes up!
Re:One word (Score:2)
No it isn't 'improving' (Score:2)
No it doesn't. There are exactly two types of "Net over power lines"
1. Fiber running along the power poles with HomePlug bringing it down from the pole.
2. Snake oil from the same crooks and con men who push perpetual motion machines. You just can't push significant bandwidth down power lines for any real distance without causing interference. You just can't rewrite the laws of physics, but you can find a VC who doesn't know about the
Re:No it isn't 'improving' (Score:2)
No. You are getting broadband and the power company is supplying it and billing you, but other than them possibly getting it into your house with something akin to HomePlug the electrical grid isn't involved. Lots of pilot projects have been run, but to date nobody has actually managed to run high bitrates over long distances over POWER wires without causing craploads of RF interference. There is a reason most of th
Re:Please wake me when it's done... (Score:2)
The technolo
Re:Please wake me when it's done... (Score:3, Funny)
Have you included the cost of repairing the system after the local HAM radio operators put an axe through the power lines? (BPL wipes out huge chunks of the RF spectrum)
Re:Please wake me when it's done... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Please wake me when it's done... (Score:2, Informative)
The INFORMATION is still being spread because it's correct. Not every BPL deployment uses the same equipment- there are several other BPL deployments around the country which use older equipment, and which ARE kicking up large amounts of broadband RF noise, causing interference to amateur radio (and other licensed
Re:Please wake me when it's done... (Score:2)
Re:Please wake me when it's done... (Score:2)
Not nearly as much fun though....
Re:Please wake me when it's done... (Score:2)
Basically its all about spending money because you have it, when thats the case you'd expect them to be a little less short-sighted when they are spending THAT much money.
Re:Please wake me when it's done... (Score:2)
Re:Please wake me when it's done... (Score:2)
Get it? Current... Power.
Wow, same thing that been done in homes for years (Score:2, Funny)
Would be ok if... (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/ [arrl.org]
Re:Would be ok if... (Score:5, Interesting)
And that's my professional opinion.
-dave
EE, currently working on EMC compliance
Re:Would be ok if... (Score:2)
Well... If you if held a BPL sponsored event where Janet Jackson had another "wardrode malfuction", I'm sure the FCC would pay attention to those angry letters.
Re:Would be ok if... (Score:2)
That said, many of the BPL field tests are still being conducted with previous-generation equipment.
It's int
Re:Would be ok if... (Score:2)
Are they paying for all the crashed radio controlled planes that run on 35MHz then?
Re:Would be ok if... (Score:2)
rc planes run on 72mhz, the cheap ones run on 27mhz. (right next to CB radio) Ground RC runs on 75mhz, and also shares the 27mhz chunk. Ham band allows RC use on 50 and 53 mhz. guess what, NONE are close to your 35mhz.
From the Wikipedia article _you_ linked:
* 35 MHz: aircraft only.
* 40 MHz: surface vehicles.
Who was it who had zero idea what they were talking about again?
Re:Would be ok if... (Score:3, Informative)
All my radio equipment is 35Mhz and any Canopy Wireless system in the area would definitely make for some very short flights.
Re:Would be ok if... (Score:2)
It gets worse - (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Would be ok if... (Score:4, Informative)
The right way to implement BPL is for the power companies to use their rights-of-way to run fiber to the customer premises.... or at least to the pole outside, where an 802.11 link handles the last 100 meters.
Re:Would be ok if... (Score:5, Informative)
The issue at hand here is that powerlines are unshielded. They were never intended to carry RF, and act as very, very big antennas when they are used in this way.
Once you load up a power line with a radio signal, you have the potential to start messing with communications all over the spectrum. The noisiest response to this has been from Amateur Radio operators, but government agencies who might be affected also think BPL is a bad idea. It's not a particularly good idea to knock out communications by the Red Cross, Salvation Army, and other emergency response agencies.
To use an analogy, think about how the water lines in your house would respond if you pressurized them beyond their capacity. They'd leak, yes? Or how about using them to carry corrosive chemicals instead of water? They weren't designed to do that, and it will cause problems.
Re:Would be ok if... (Score:2)
Re:Would be ok if... (Score:2)
> specifically and the radios work just fine. I'm a little
> confused where that idea came from.
The first version they tried to deploy in the US caused severe interference.
Re:Would be ok if... (Score:2)
Re:Uhh, 'Blue Screen Of Death'-- STILL Widespread. (Score:2)
Re:Would be ok if... (Score:2)
Re:Would be ok if... (Score:2)
Re:Would be ok if... (Score:2)
Then guess what happens when the amateur who can transmit 1KW in the same spectrum starts using same. I imagine the bits stop moving.
Municipal Power & Fiber (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Municipal Power & Fiber (Score:2)
Re:Municipal Power & Fiber (Score:2)
(Dang. I surrounded that with a <speculation> tag, and slashdot just deleted it, rather than presenting it as plain text.)
How does this work? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:How does this work? (Score:2)
Re:How does this work? (Score:2)
Any signal you put on the line is pretty much not gonna make it past the first transformer it hits, so it'll be limited to the phase you're connected to - probably not actually an especially big area.
The BPL schemes that the power companies are pushing (which are doomed to failure because the power lines have a nasty habit of radi
More competition is better, whatever it is! (Score:5, Interesting)
But here are the salient positive points:
1) these guys are by their nature, net-neutral and while they're utilities, they don't live behind ancient telco models
2) reliability is a serious culture within the power community; these guys have trucks and know how to use them
3) the electrical utilities have the largest amount of unused communications easements and right-of-ways in the USA
4) the utilities in the EU are riding this wave quickly; they go everywhere, while the old tired fat ex-PTTs slumber
5) more competition keeps the telco and cable companies honest. We need alternatives.
So, I say: party on, BPL!
Re:More competition is better, whatever it TRUCKS (Score:2)
Now I'm scared.
Re:More competition is better, whatever it is! (Score:2)
Party on, Garth!
Re:More competition is better, whatever it is! (Score:3, Insightful)
Especially since SBC/AT&T and the bastard sons of Ma Bell have proven themselves to be Big Brother's best man and groomsmen.
Re:More competition is better, whatever it is! (Score:2)
Five-nines reliability is a big deal in the telco world too, but in my experience most telcos are incapable of running a good and reliable internet service (both BT and NTL are pretty useless).
Re:More competition is better, whatever it is! (Score:2)
Five-nines reliability is a big deal in the telco world too,
Well, maybe; for some definition of "reliable". But in my experience, every phone line I've ever had (over some 4 decades) has been plagued by periods lasting from minutes to hourse when the line wasn't usable due to noise, distortion, lengthy dropouts, whatever. I'm sure the phone company considered the line 100% working during these times. But it has always been common for one part
Re:More competition is better, whatever it is! (Score:2)
It's true that the local loop may not be great, but the core network is very reliable (at least it is here in the UK).
And since they do have a culture of reliability, it would probably radically improve internet service.
But would that culture still
Re:More competition is better, whatever it is! (Score:2)
Re:More competition is better, whatever it is! (Score:2)
Buy a better transmitter, or use filters. (Score:2)
It's only the last hundred meters that's going to get much modulation anyway; most of the backhaul is through alternate means. Sometimes fiber, sometimes twisted pairs, sometimes cellular 2.4/5.8Ghz. The WiFi redistribution/cellular concept is a long way from the most popula
power vs phone reliability (Score:2)
> know how to use them
Right. Guess that is why when Rita smacked us the phones and Internet stayed lit but the power & catv went dark for days. More rural areas went without power for weeks but most kept their phone.
Power Co pays ME for a pos. net flow of data! (Score:5, Funny)
Most power companies are required to buy extra electriciy if you generate more power for the grid than you consume. This usually only applies to folks with solar panels and other sources of power that end up contributing to the grid. They get to watch their power meters run backwards!
I wonder if the same principle could be applied to net data flows! I would love to be paid by the power company for massive file sharing since I would be contributing more to the 'net than I consume.
Re:Power Co pays ME for a pos. net flow of data! (Score:2)
Heh. Most of the time, the power co just dumps the power into a big load (read: resistor), because it's not worth the trouble trying to phase-shift the consumer-generated power to sync it to the neighborhood supply. Especially given the fact that the frequency can vary with load (e.g., during the summer, your power frequency may drop to 55-56Hz at 5:30 when everyone's running the A/C and the stove while making dinner). At least, that's what I was told wh
Another Alternative (Score:2)
Re:Another Alternative (Score:2)
We we told this, too, by Verizon (who owns the phone monopoly in this neighborhood). But a year or so back I contacted speakeasy, and they said "Yes, we can do it there." We did a bit of checking, and switched our internet from the cable company (who blocked ports 25 and 80) to speakeasy (who doesn't block anything) DSL. It works fine, over the lines owned by Verizon. We get a couple of static IP addresses, no blocking, for the same price that Verizon sells lim
So true! (Score:2)
And they can start with purchasing a power station. I've heard rumors that the internets won't work without electric power.
I love this only because it causes quaking (Score:2, Insightful)
Is 200Mbps enough for you? (Score:2)
First things first (Score:2, Insightful)
Before this can be rolled out, the power companies will want to run a massive national smear campaign against ham radio operators, you know, just to make sure no-one listens to them when they complain about interference.
analog is bad quality anyways (Score:2)
Re:analog is bad quality anyways (Score:2)
HAM operators can operate when no power is running, via generators, meaning they can (and often do) provide a key service in times of disaster. You'll note that that key facet of HAM radio wouldn't exactly work when the fucking power lines were knocked down.
Re:analog is bad quality anyways (Score:2)
Re:analog is bad quality anyways (Score:2)
If you are that concerned about communication during a disaster... May I suggest a satellite phone powered by a solar power. Maybe throw in satelliete modem to boot. I'd probaly get more attention posting on slashdot during a disaster anyways...
Well... And if our satellites are down then we are pretty much screwed.
and i was just reading (Score:5, Informative)
new BPL complaint here: http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2006/05/05/100/ [arrl.org]
system operator response here:
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/files/COMTe
Time for counter interference... (Score:2)
Re:and i was just reading (Score:2)
73, W7COM
And In Other News... (Score:5, Funny)
"What is coax but insulated copper conductor. With Edison's DC delivery methods, tried and proven over a hundred years ago, a single conductor with ground return has always been feasible. Now we will free you from the greedy power companies and their unfair monopolies one and for all. Bwahahaha!"
The combined telcos have scheduled a news-conference for later this afternoon.
I know you're joking but... (Score:2)
...if you have ever had the misfortune of working on phone wiring when someone calls, you know the telephone company already delivers plenty of voltage!
Ring voltage is over 100VAC, which is pretty exciting when you've got your fingers on the wires. Getting the "buzz" in your body and hearing the phones in the house ring at the same time is...well...really...WEIRD!
Broadband over Power Lines? (Score:2, Funny)
Marketplace is APM, not NPR (Score:2)
The problems with BPL (Score:5, Interesting)
at the start, but the deeper you go the less decent it gets.
The problem boils down to the fact that a BPL system emits RF (radio
frequency) energy, causing interference to entities that use those
frequencies. The FCC has been put into an interesting spot here, as
they realize that the problems generated by it are real, but are also
being pushed by the Bush administration to move forward on this.
Ham radio operators are definitely negatively affected by this. Hams
by their nature deal with "weak signals", which the noise generated
by BPL tends to clobber, making many of the "shortwave" (ie, below
30MHz) bands less than useful.
If you care to see a pretty good response to this go to www.arrl.org
and look for BPL.
This is a real horror for hams. Least anyone think that ham radio
is out of date in this era of advanced technology, talk with officials
down south who dealt with Katrina, or in Neq York City on September 11th.
BPL pits big money interests against litterally amateurs, with the latter
group figting back, and being at least partly successful, in getting
the FCC to deal/recognize interference complaints, and getting these
systems cleaner.
What will happen, I cannot say. But I look to systems in Europe
and Asia where broadband exists and doesn't use BPL, and see systems
which offer far better service.
--STeve Andre'
amateur callsign WB8WSF
Re:The problems with BPL (Score:2)
Yeah but when the next Katrina comes along the power lines get knocked out, the RF interference stops, the hams work, usefulness restored, everyones happy right?
Re:The problems with BPL (Score:2)
Re:The problems with BPL (Score:2)
Wrong. There will be no hams left, because in normal times their equipment doesn't work so they will not have been able to keep it operational.
Re:The problems with BPL (Score:2)
Joe Walsh, WB6ACU
Patty Loveless, KD4WUJ
Kevin Mitnick, N6NHG
Steve "Woz" Wozniak, WA6BND
Yeah, all weirdos. Well, okay, I've seen Joe Walsh lately, and he is a bit strange
dah-dah-dididit didididah-dah / dah-didit dit / didah-dah dididah-dah-dah dididit didah-dit didididit
Cheating bastards! (Score:2, Informative)
I doubt they even solved any of the original problems they brought to the table eons ago! The idea is that every OUTLET could have internet access. Everyone who has an existing electricity feed could get internet access (imagine third world countries, etc). You'll notice that the article says that without a "smart grid" it won't work in rural areas. A good chunk of the world is rural...
Might as well invent a square wheel wh
Re:Cheating bastards! (Score:2)
That's where I am right now - rural - after living in an area where I could get both DSL and Cable Internet. My kids were *really* not pleased with the idea that they might have to revert to dialup. Luckily there's a wireless ISP with a tower only about 8 miles away and the installer was able to get line of sight on it from the roof. It's not quite as fast as DSL or Cable,
Already Involved (Score:3, Insightful)
Asymptote (Score:2)
Shouldn't this have its own section and icon by now?
We need SOME third party last-mile provider (Score:2)
Reason for BPL Dups (Score:2)
73, W7COM
BPL is teh ghey (Score:3, Insightful)
"quickly offer Internet service to millions of new customers" they say.
This is not true. They can't run the service over high voltage lines.
They have to fiber out to medium voltage (7,200 volts) lines and then offload from fiber ($$) to the unshielded lines.
The lines may be 7,200 volts, but to comply with section 15 the data is transmitted somewhere closer to 1 volt.
Emergency frequencies tend to be low because the low attenuation rate allows for greater travel. BPL being sent at 1 volt attenuates quickly so their workaround is to use EMRGENCY FREQUENCIES to transmit data on the power lines.
Even at 1 volt it is enough to disturb radio and emergency communications because med voltage power lines are basically a big antenna.
The problem with being only about 1 volt is that the signal must be cleaned and re-amplified every few hundred feed (more equipment, $).
medium voltage lines are stepped down to 240 volt drops to peoples homes but the data could not survive this. The result is the need for a CT coupler (yes, more $) to bypass the transformer and again reinsert the signal onto the shielded line.
When all is said and done you have a service that is expensive enough to run that it will no be a rural broadband solution.
At best it will be available to areas that already have a choice between Cable, DSL, Fiber, and soon WiMAX.
For the high maintenance costs of keeping BPL signal leakage from PBL deployments you could just run fiber right to the home.
Also, BPL maintenance and inline equipment = network (read Power) outages.
Besides, internet access is a very step for power companies. By the time they establish data centers, mail platforms etc. there will be a slew of better alternatives that won't cause power outages.
Maybe they should instead focus on providing reliable power service or clean energy.
As for the latest "We can monitor equipment with it" they already have technology in place to do that that. It is simply their latest ploy to get people to sign off on their raping the radio spectrum.
Re:BPL is teh ghey (Score:2)
Re:BPL is teh ghey (Score:2)
Doesn't work (Score:2)
It would mean a data line to every household. That is a lot of potential, so everybody has been trying to tap it for years. None has succeded. A small company in Austria is selling it on a trial bases, but they have been sued by the state, because their systems cause interference with police and fi
Oh, Great. Another way for the NSA to spy on us! (Score:2)
How soon until those slits have little pupils that follow you around the room and feed live video to your local Homeland Security office?
I mean [REDACTED BY FALSE BELIEF FILTER. TRUTH MAINTENANCE SERVICES SPONSORED BY NEW BROCOLLI CHEESE HOT POCKETS.]
Re:Oh, Great. Another way for the NSA to spy on us (Score:2)
You can thank political apointees for this (Score:2)
A comparison (Score:2)
By comparison, BPL is maturing much faster - all the timescales are a tenth of those for fusion.
In another story... (Score:2)
"The powerline can be used with tiny solar cells on the wires to generate electricity, as they are being laid. We had been wasting the solar energy all along, and this will contribute to the net electricity generation" the spokesman said.
"We are looking into possibility of channeling heat from hotter areas of North America to colder areas like Canada or North USA, through power lines. Afterall they are metal wire
Transformers? (Score:2)
massive RF interference (Score:2)
seems like about the best way to introduce massive RF interference
into the atmosphere -- massive high-power unshielded anteneas
modulated by square waves... blech.
Welcome...welcome to The Machine (Score:2, Funny)
Internet Fools Gold (Score:3, Insightful)
Every power line is an antenna, fouling nearby radio with signals placed on it and absorbing signals from nearby radio and noise. Every transformer is a barrier that requires a rugged powered device to bridge the Internet signal for those four housholds. These are fundamental constraints to which no reasonable engineer expects to find a solution.
Re:BPL = useless. (Score:4, Funny)
WTF do you want, someone to read it to you?
Re:BPL = useless. (Score:2)
Oh, and if you were too stupid to RTFA thoroughly, they mention their system interferes "un-intrusively" now HOW THE FUCK DO YOU PROPOSE THAT WHEN I USE EVERY AVAILABLE SOCKET *PLUS* POWER-STRIPS (therefore using the theoretical max o
Nope (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd personally like the FCC to put an axe in this idea, but it's never going to happen. Once they get enough of a userbase, it'll be impossible to shut them down politically. Ham radio will just die and the public simply won't know what they've lost because they don't use it themselves.
Re:Nope (Score:2)
Then bloody murder will be screamed.
Aint we human just quaint?
Re:IF BPL technology is so good (Score:2)
Re:IF BPL technology is so good (Score:2, Informative)
telco's are set up for mid-low coltages and low current DC..
that and there switching equipment would never work with somethign like this.. they would have to replace everything..
when you look at power and signal detla on AC it doesn't care if it goes through a transformer or two the delta is still proportonal to the average voltage..
it would just make no sence
Re:Barely as fast as ISDN (Score:2)
Ambient Corporation does 200Mbps on its new X2 product, with gig fiber or Ethernet or Wifi drops to the house.
This radio signal radiates from the power line on most HF and low VHF frequencies causing severe and harmful interference to other radio services.
Ambient's product notches out the HF and VHF bands.
I understand that you're hostile to BPL, but th
Re:Barely as fast as ISDN (Score:2)