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Are Vertical Mice The Next Ergonomic Trend?

Posted by Zonk on Tue Feb 07, 2006 04:58 PM
from the call-me-when-it's-good-for-fps-games dept.
Input Devices Entertainment Games
ThinSkin writes "Devoid of kookiness like many of its ergonomic counterparts, the VerticalMouse 2 is shaped like an ordinary mouse, only turned 90 degrees so that your arm is in a natural 'handshake position.' ExtremeTech's review of the VerticalMouse 2 suggests that its horsepower and familiar feel make it a worthy candidate to replace a horizontal mouse. Some of the drawbacks include its $75 price tag and difficulty to pick up in 3D gaming scenarios."
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  • On trends ... (Score:5, Funny)

    by popra (879835) on Tuesday February 07 2006, @04:59PM (#14663845)
    ... yeeesss, this 'handshake position' seems very familiar somehow.
    Seriously though, might I suggest inventing a self cleaning keyboard/mousepad.

    • Re:On trends ... (Score:5, Funny)

      by skoaldipper (752281) <skoalstr8NO@SPAMgmail.com> on Tuesday February 07 2006, @05:15PM (#14663991)
      Trends indeed!

      First they turned the computer case itself on edge. Then the mouse.

      But I'm a tradionalist at heart. I will just lie sideways atop my office desk to restore balance to my universe...
    • Apart from the geek/sex jokes that the physical only contact you're going to get with a girl is in the handshake position, or the one that the mouse better be on your lap rather than on your desk since that's a far more natural position when pronning, the handshake position is all wrong.

      For most people, the keyboard is still a significant UI and key-tomouse transitions won't be facilitated by having to go through a flat (keyboard) to vertical (mouse) sequence.

      Perhaps a more natural thing would be to to use

  • A step backward (Score:4, Insightful)

    by TripMaster Monkey (862126) * on Tuesday February 07 2006, @04:59PM (#14663847)

    If you compare the design of the VerticalMouse 2 with the Quill Mouse [extremetech.com], you can see that they're virtually identical...with one important difference. The Quill Mouse is equipped with a shelf where the edge of your hand rests. The VerticalMouse 2 has no such shelf. Without a support for your hand, you'll have to support the weight of your hand by:
    • resting it in an abnormal position on top of the VerticalMouse 2, thereby completely negating the advantages of a vertically oriented mouse,
    • the use of your arm muscles, leading quickly to fatigue and muscle strain,
      or,
    • clinging to the vertical surface of the mouse with your fingers and/or thumb, again leading to fatigue and muscle strain.

    Now add to all this the discomfort the large-handed will suffer as the edge of their hands develop friction burns against their desktops.

    Any way you slice it, this product is a bad design and a non-starter. Save your money.

    • Now add to all this the discomfort the large-handed will suffer as the edge of their hands develop friction burns against their desktops.

      I am one of those large-handed people. In fact, my hands are so large that when holding my current mouse of choice - the basic logitech scroll mouse - that both the area behind my thumb AND the right side of my hand including the right side of my pinky are rubbing on the table when I mouse. Thus, this won't be any worse.

    • Re:A step backward (Score:5, Informative)

      by Hays (409837) on Tuesday February 07 2006, @05:22PM (#14664057)
      I used an evoluent vertical mouse for months. Where did I rest my hand? On the mousepad. Maybe if you have small hands this is an issue?

      As it happens, the vertical mouse didn't seem to help at all with my RSI.
    • Is it just me or am I the only person in the world who wrests their wrist on the mousepad and moves the mouse with my fingers. With this new mouse it looks like I would have to operate the mouse like a toddler and move my entire arm. The shelf design seems to only exacerbate the problem.
    • I have a quill mouse and it worked wonders for the pain in my wrist and forearm. I can't get linux to recognize clicking the scroll wheel though. It works in windows.

  • Dr. Benway perhaps? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rueger (210566) on Tuesday February 07 2006, @04:59PM (#14663848) Homepage
    A main driver for this is the desire to reduce the risk or pain associated with carpal tunnel syndrome and other RSI disorders ... The idea is to allow your arm to control the mouse in a more natural position, with the thumb up, in a hand-shaking position. Doctors who specialize in ergonomics consider this position preferable.

    I have to ask, did anyone at ExtremeTech actually talk to a doctor who specializes in such things, or were these comments lifted from an Evoluent press release?

    The reality of RSI is just so, so much more complex than these simple solutions would suggest.

    Although how can you argue with a review like this [evoluent.com]:

    Gained all the votes in terms of comfort and facility of use, of "look", colour and sympathy: the panel as a whole totally adhered to this new product.
    • the panel as a whole totally adhered to this new product.

      (runs off to buy stock in a cyanoacrilate manufacturer)...

    • Carpal tunnel syndrome is usually associated with heavy use of the keyboard. It might be possible to archive the same syndrome with a mouse, but I don't know of any company looking for hardcore gamers right now (it's not like I wouldn't appreciate it).
       
      So in my opinion this is just marketing bs, because I can't think of any work related field involving the use of a mouse for 8 hours a day...

      • Since I play piano for 20 years now, I'm just used to have a correct position. That's all it takes.

        It's probably your piano playing that's protected you from mousing pain. That, or you just don't do it enough. It's worth mentioning that there is no correct position for using a traditional mouse, because (as has been noted in the article, but also previously) your wrist is twisted and then rotated when you use a mouse.

  • Vertical not the answer (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ackthpt (218170) * on Tuesday February 07 2006, @05:00PM (#14663854) Homepage Journal

    Ages ago I had a Gyration GyroMouse which totally kicked butt. With a mouse free from having to make contact with a horizontal surface, plus the fact I clicked with my thumb, rather than stressing my index finger, I found it to be a natural and easy feel. The only caveat was as the mouse remained in my palm the piezo-gyros would warm up a bit and the mouse would drift a little, but recalibration wasn't hard to do. $75 isn't an issue when you're talking about getting a superior mouse.

    Poo. I've got some real ideas on how a mouse really should work, which could allow hands to remain on the keyboard, but after seeing an idea of mine ripped right off of /. and for sale on ThinkGeek, you can guess why I won't post any of these ideas.

    and it makes toast, too!

  • The next big thing? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Andrew Aguecheek (767620) on Tuesday February 07 2006, @05:01PM (#14663857)
    Basically, no they're not. No more than we are ever going to drive our cars using joysticks or keyboards. People like what they're used to. This is a gimmick. Move along, nothing to see here.
    • This is a gimmick

      Tell that to the people suffering RSI [wikipedia.org]. I hear my girlfriend complain alot about pains, from her wrist to her neck since even though she just uses a PC about 2 hours a day compared to my +11hours for my work,research and entertainment. After working for hours, I often feel strained too much to handle a mouse. (I'm well adjusted to do most with the keyboard, but some interfaces force manipulated with a mouse.)

      I welcome all alternatives which eliminate that, PCs are not to be thought out of

  • Trackball (Score:5, Informative)

    by CastrTroy (595695) on Tuesday February 07 2006, @05:02PM (#14663871) Homepage
    Trackballs are the way to go. I don't know why we ever chose a mouse over a trackball. They are much easier, as you don't have to move your hand/arm all over the place. Only your fingers and thumb move. Since switching to a trackball, I have much less problems with wrist pain. Also, I find that trackballs are more accurate, and work greate for PC gaming, because you don't have to lift and reposition it every few seconds.
    • Trackballs are okay for some types of PC games, RTSs and RPGs in my experience, but for a fast paced FPS it seems just too hard to keep looking in all directions as well as aim accurately using just a thumb. In those situations a mouse gives you much finer control. You also still at some point have to reposition your thumb, when you spin the ball a full half turn.

      Now that I think about it, I suppose the sensitivity of a trackball could be adjusted so that a 'flick' of the thumb moves the player's viewpoint
    • Amen to that brother.

      My personal choice is the MS Trackball Explorer [microsoft.com]. Wonderfull design, acurate optical and very nice drivers in MS (holy buckets does mouse button control in linux blow chow). As fate would have it they got discontinued. I snapped up 3 that I plan on slowly doleing out over the years even though my current 3 (2 at home, 1 at work) work great and have for years. I looked around quite a bit before I bought the three, but found nothing that came close to it's ergonomics, and abilities. And
    • I love my trackball too but a vertical Trackball might be pretty nice too, did a quick google search but wasnt able to find any. Is there such a device?
    • Mice allows you to interact with the desktop metaphor via your index finger. Trackballs do not permit this metaphor. But with that said, I can only use a trackball due to RSI and I swear by one inbetween (can use either hand) an IBM SelectEase.
    • Actually, I'm totally the opposite and can't see how trackballs ever even got a chance. Personally, trackballs drive me completely insane. With a mouse, if I want to make a small movement and then have the pointer just sit there, I don't have to keep taking my hand off of the mouse, I just rest. With a trackball, I have to keep taking my finger or thumb off of it because, I don't know about you, but I haven't got 'surgeon's hands' that stay rock solid still while being suspended by their muscles. No I don't
  • I am hardly a trend setter. That said, I finally got disgusted with the equipment treadmill that gaming was putting me through and went 100% console for gaming. Sure, its not the same and sure, it took a while to get used to the console joysticks but now I wouldn't go back. As much as I will miss some types of games that are only possible with complex interfaces like what is possible with a mouse and keyboard, I am thankful I don't have to deal with video/sound card upgrades every year. Battlefield 2 is
  • You still move your wrist so it wont cut it unless there is a trackball for the thumb. I have contemplated slapping some wood on a logitech trackball to have it be upright similar to this mouse and seeing just how good it can be.

  • Once more with feeling: (Score:3, Funny)

    by Lispy (136512) on Tuesday February 07 2006, @05:06PM (#14663915) Homepage
    Get perpendiculahar [hitachigst.com]...

  • Nothing like discrimination... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jferris (908786) on Tuesday February 07 2006, @05:07PM (#14663921) Homepage
    $75 for the righty version. It is $105 for the lefty version. No wonder lefties are continually forced to conform to a right handed world. It was bad enough going to Catholic school, but I thought that the lefty-discrimination was over once I broke out...

  • It won't catch on... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by aardwolf64 (160070) on Tuesday February 07 2006, @05:11PM (#14663959) Homepage
    One of the major reasons that the standard mouse caught on is that a 2-year old child can understand the concept of reaching out and grabbing something. The traditional mouse layout mimics this behavior. This 90-degree rotated mouse is counter-intuitive to reaching out and grabbing...

    Long story short, you might like using this mouse but don't count on it ever replacing the current "horizontal" mouse for standard users.
    • Except that thumb-on-top is the natural position for you hand. It is the natural state of your hand and arm, and forcing them to remain in any other position is causing your muscles to work. If you pay attention, you naturally grab most things with your hand in this position.

      However, I do agree that a sideways mouse makes little sense at first glance. But I wonder if that has to with the fact that we are so used to the way they work. I would be interested to see how a two-year old child actually grabs a

  • ____-click? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by venomkid (624425) on Tuesday February 07 2006, @05:15PM (#14663993)
    So, if these take off, will we be top-clicking and bottom-clicking? Or maybe we'll renamed it index-clicking, middle-clicking and ring-clicking? Or maybe we'll just still call it left and right vestigially, sort of like the way we still click on 3.5 inch floppy icons to save files to other media...

    *boggle*

  • I've owned a few vertical mice like this [3m.com], formerly known as "Dr. Mouse", now it's the "3M Renaissance" Mouse. I've had no complaints. Zero. They're fantastic. I'm using one right now. I got my friends hooked on them too.

  • My experience with these mice... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Hays (409837) on Tuesday February 07 2006, @05:19PM (#14664034)
    I have RSI problems in my hands and forearms and elbows. Not carpal tunnel syndrome- various inflammations that never seem to completely heal. Doctors have been little use, medical science doesn't seem to have caught up with RSI.

    Anyway I tried a vertical mouse (from evoluent) for several months. Eventually I started to find it uncomfortable and switched back to a normal mouse. I never found it to make much of a difference one way or another.

    I also use a Kinesis Essential keyboard, which I've also not found to make a big difference one way or another.

  • No way (Score:3, Insightful)

    by squoozer (730327) on Tuesday February 07 2006, @05:21PM (#14664046) Homepage

    I could see a tilted mouse working but full on vertical is a non-starter I think. My guess would be that vertial is to steep for the vast majority of people. Shaking hands is something that one does breifly and therefore I am willing to move my body into a less than optimal position. I don't find shaking hands particularly comfortable therefore I don't think I would find shakign hands all day with a mouse comfortable. Anyway, the big problem I see is that the mouse will tend to move away as you click. This makes sense as it has nothing to push against. A hand rest would solve that at teh expense of making the device clunky.

  • Nothing new under the sun.. (Score:3, Informative)

    by the_rajah (749499) * on Tuesday February 07 2006, @05:26PM (#14664095) Homepage
    More than a hundred years ago telegraphers discovered that a key that moved side to side instead of up and down and that allowed the hand to be vertical instead of horizontal greatly reduced the incidence of the dreaded "glass arm". There have been and still are lots of keys produced that take advantage of this. For one of the prime examples, see the productes still offered by Vibroplex. [vibroplex.com]

    73
  • I find that any RSI-type discomfort I feel has more to do with poor wrist cushioning, particularly if the mouse is too close to the desk edge and the desk edge puts sharp pressure on my inner wrist or arm.

    If you have wrist discomfort, be sure you're using a wrist pad to rule out that as a source of pressure.....

  • Ok, on the graphic example of the "twisted" arm, the hand holding the regular mouse, is twised WAY to far.
    (Link to graphic in the article here [ziffdavisinternet.com].)
    Also, it seems to me, holding the mouse in a 90 degree angle, like their many examples show, would stress my THUMB more than holding a regular mouse would stress my "twisted" arm..
    Try it yourself. Hold your arm like in their example, pretend like your holding the 90 degree mouse. Now move your wrist 90 degrees, as if you were going to hold a mouse. I'm not sure

  • Not for CAD/Photoshop (Score:3, Interesting)

    by dindi (78034) on Tuesday February 07 2006, @06:03PM (#14664446) Homepage
    If you thought it was easy enough to move that mouse just a notch, before putting that dot, connecting that poly, etc .... with a normal mouse, your problems will multiply with that.

    I am not a CAD worker nor a GFX designer, but mice annoy the hell out of me enough. I personally have a trackball, one that is an old Logi design, and that pointer has a approx 35 degree button surface, so the idea is not entirely new.
    I actually beleive, that an angle smaller than 90 is more appropriate and a more natural rest.

    But hey, what does that matter? I type all day on the console :) and when not - I use a trackball ...

    summary: I think it is a really retarded design

  • I've got one (Score:3, Informative)

    by taradfong (311185) * on Wednesday February 08 2006, @02:56PM (#14672081) Homepage Journal
    Took a week or two to get used to it. The trickiest thing is that when you click, you are exerting force horizontally, not vertically like a normal mouse. With a normal mouse, the table resists the force. But with the vertical mouse, you have to train yourself to counter this force with your thumb. I don't even think about it now.

    The software is also somewhat crunky and I suspect it was causing BSODs, but it works reasonably well with the standard Microsoft mouse stuff.

    I'm glad I got it and I like using it. I was getting strain from most mice save the cheapo low profile Compaq one I had laying around. Mice are so thick these days, forcing you to arch your hands.

    But it has not had anywhere near the impact on life that I got by switching to the Kinesis keyboard.

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