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A Triple-Standard Disk

Posted by kdawson on Mon Sep 18, 2006 05:02 PM
from the blue-plus-red-makes-purple dept.
Media Hardware
On the heels of the news of Toshiba's proposed double-standard disk comes word that Warner Brothers engineers have applied for a patent on a triple-standard disk. The new disk would offer HD-DVD and Blu-Ray on one side and standard DVD on the other. From the article: "Warner's plan is to create a disk with a Blu-ray top layer that works like a two-way mirror. This should reflect just enough blue light for a Blu-ray player to read it okay. But it should also let enough light through for HD-DVD players to ignore the Blu-ray recording and find a second HD-DVD layer beneath." See the patent application, filed last month.
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[+] Toshiba Develops 3-Layer DVD and HD-DVD 228 comments
morpheus83 writes, "Toshiba, in collaboration with disk manufacturer Memory Tech Japan, has successfully combined a HD-DVD and DVD to a single 3-layer, twin-format disk. The resulting disk conforms to DVD standards so it can be played on DVD players, and also on HD-DVD players after upgrading the firmware. The disk can have either Single Layer DVD (4.7GB) + Dual Layer HD DVD (30GB); or Dual Layer DVD (8.5GB) + Single Layer HD DVD (15GB). There will not be a long wait as the new disk can be produced on the existing HD-DVD mass production line with minor process additions."
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  • Or they could... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by AKAImBatman (238306) * <(akaimbatman) (at) (gmail.com)> on Monday September 18 2006, @05:04PM (#16134053) Homepage Journal
    ...include two discs in the Amaray case?

    [...]

    Naaah. That's too easy.

    • Re:Or they could... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by John.P.Jones (601028) on Monday September 18 2006, @05:08PM (#16134079)
      No, you see then the purchaser could seperate the discs (give one to a friend). Obviously the studios would not like this...

      You aren't thinking nearly evil enough to be a film studio. :)

    • Re:Or they could... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by tomstdenis (446163) <tomstdenisNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Monday September 18 2006, @05:12PM (#16134112) Homepage
      Or they could stop acting like children, sit it down, discuss the technical and logistical merits of both and DECIDE ON ONE STANDARD FOR NOW. ...

      Just saying.

      Tom

      • Re:Or they could... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by AusIV (950840) on Monday September 18 2006, @05:22PM (#16134185)
        Or they could stop acting like children, sit it down, discuss the technical and logistical merits of both
        In my experience, children are better at compromise than adults who have money invested in something.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by kinglink (195330)
          Or have a preference. Adults defend worthless stuff to their death. I mean sony has been constantly making bad moves and there's still people who say that they haven't even made the first mistake. Sad

      • But then somebody would have to settle on a standard that doesn't involve tons of patent royalties to them.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by triso (67491)
      ...include two discs in the Amaray case?
      They would have to charge extra for this since you could give one away. That would cause some revenue loss.

  • Not buying it. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    HD-DVD and Blu-Ray don't look any better than DVDs on my 27" TV and I'm not spending $2,000 on a TV just so I can drool over PlayStation 3 games. Therefore I would recommend that you not buy this product. Furthermore I haven't met a single person who wants an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc player due to the crippling DRM and marginal increase in quality.

    • Who cares what you think? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I'm not spending $2,000 on a TV just so I can drool over PlayStation 3 games.

      Err, HD capable sets are doing just fine without PS3 and if you're fine with your NTSC signal on your 27" tv, then more power to you. However, just because YOU don't think it's worth it, just because YOU don't see a need to watch HD content doesn't mean squat for the rest of the populace. Fact is, lots of people are plunking money down for new tv's that are capable of playing HD, you the manufs don't really care about.

      BTW, t

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by AuMatar (183847)
        Except we're not. Less than 10% of the US has HD. Less than 50% of new TV sales are HD. HD has failed in the marketplace.

        • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward
          HD has failed in the marketplace.

          You're kidding right? HDTV capable set sales are increasing. Less than 10% of the market, of course, you're looking at an item that has massive market penetration, even 10% of that market is HUGE and it keeps getting bigger. Pay more attention at your local Walmart (which is an excellent indicator of what the "regular" folk are buying). More and more sq footage is being taken over by flat panel sets, most of them are HD capable (barring a few of the smaller lcd's or c
        • Except we're not. Less than 10% of the US has HD. Less than 50% of new TV sales are HD. HD has failed in the marketplace.


          And, just for shits and giggles... Is there any firm number on the percentage of sets with HDMI currently in use?

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by be-fan (61476)
          You're on crack. HD penetration has been growing tremendously quickly, to the point where the 10% number, which was accurate just a couple of years ago, has long since become obsolete. By the end of 2005, 17% of TV-owning households owned an HDTV. At this rate, by 2010, 57% of TV-watching US households will have an HDTV. That's less than four years from now.

          As of June, 41% of all TV sales in the US were HDTVs. Moreover, HDTVs accounted for 81% of TV sales by revenue. At a point when a cheap SDTV can be had

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by DaveWick79 (939388)
            The real question then, is what percentage of people have actually bought a new TV set during the past 2 years or so. if only 10% of the public bought a new TV set, then only 4% of the public has HD sets. And how many of those sets are 720p? Half? Now you're down to 2%. How many of those customers are in the upper middle class and higher and bought 2 or 3 HD sets. Now you might be down to 1% of households. Sure, it's growing, and will keep growing, especially as people are forced to replace analog se
    • want HD-DVD. More space means higher bitrates means better picture. Blockbuster dvds from major studios look fine on even a 27" crt. Obscure anime from small publishers look pretty awful. Anime distributers often don't have access to masters, let alone the time to do anything with them.

  • let me get this straight (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rpax9000 (916267) on Monday September 18 2006, @05:07PM (#16134073)
    They can phase out old DVDs even faster now... you're paying extra for the HD content anyway, so why not buy the HD player? Seems like a new approached to planned obsolescence by Warner.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      The cynic in me says these discs are being patented so that they may never be used, thus boosting total sales of regular discs. Want the special super deluxe edition? Only on HD-DVD. How about the extended directors cut? Blu-Ray exclusive. Collect them all, you greedy bastards! Pour your money into the industry in a debauched frenzy of consumerism!! Mwahahaha!!!

      Like I said, cynic speaking.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by rpax9000 (916267)
        I suppose this is an equally possible flip side.... I feel like any time I see a content provider patent a new tech, I get to thinking about how they are using it to maximize profit. Not that these businesses should have any other motive than profit, I don't guess, but at the same time I think we all need to be wary of any "technological advances" they are kind enough to offer the consumer. Of course, that leaves us with Sony trying to use content to sell us proprietary standards (rather than using a stan
  • Given that all of the players involved are interested in achieving "network lock in" with their proprietary technology and their proprietary players why would they incorporate all standards at once.

    Secondly, it obviates the need to replace all of your DVDs or buy a new player or two.

    Finally with all of the different standards, Sony might mess up their DRM and allow their drives to play the disk.

    Far too consumer friendly to work!
  • If you buy a movie stored on one of these discs, do you have rights to six copies of that movie (the three on the disc + three archival copies?)
    • What are these "rights" of which you speak? Even a school child knows that a media owner may only use the content as the copyright holder sees fit to allow them too.

  • *Blink* *Blink* (Score:3, Funny)

    by jpellino (202698) on Monday September 18 2006, @05:11PM (#16134107)
    While working on the road for on The GLOBE Program, I routinely explained to fellow passengers that this was an unprecedented case of hundreds of thousands of kids collecting real environmental data in a dozen areas for use by top scientists, and was a cooperative project between EPA, NSF, NASA, NOAA, Dept of State & Dept of Ed. I soon learned the their universal, blinking amazement was never for the kids/schools/data part, but for the cooperation of 6 gummint agencies.

    This is like that. Someone dare propose that all three systems coexist in a win-win-win scenario? Surely these are the end times.
  • This one is really going to confuse my Mom!!!
    ______________________________________________
    Free iPods? Its legit [wired.com]. 5 of my friends got theirs. Get yours here! [freepay.com]

  • Should? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by CaymanIslandCarpedie (868408) on Monday September 18 2006, @05:12PM (#16134116) Journal
    definition: "Should" - a work that should never be allowed in describing a patent.

    So they really haven't figured out how to do it? So what they file the patent hope they can figure it out and if not hope someone else does so they can sue them?

    • Re:Should? (Score:5, Informative)

      by kansas1051 (720008) on Monday September 18 2006, @05:33PM (#16134265)
      definition: "Should" - a work that should never be allowed in describing a patent.

      Agreed, but its only the submitter who used the word "should" in relation to the benefit of the disclosed technology. The actual application is very clear that the technology produces a layered DVD and only uses the word should once:

      "It should be understood that the discs in the drawings have been simplified for the sake of clarity and that various layers, including glue and resin layers well known to those skilled in the art have been omitted. "

      Patent attorneys rarely use "should" in applications because an invention which only has a prophetic utility does not satisfy the utility requirement of 35 U.S.C. 101.

  • Curious... (Score:4, Funny)

    by steveo777 (183629) on Monday September 18 2006, @05:13PM (#16134118) Homepage Journal
    Did anyone else imagine Wile E Coyote in a lab coat at the ACME factory?

  • shifts focus to price of players then (Score:5, Interesting)

    by 2ms (232331) on Monday September 18 2006, @05:13PM (#16134119)
    For one thing this probably isnt as perfect a solution as it seems because the disks will obviously be significantly more expensive than even the more expensive of either bluray or hddvd. For example, it will have to have that super expensive surface coating that bluray disks require since the wavelength of laser is so short (to prevent scratching).

    But the more interesting thing is that if these were to go mainstream among the media providers, then success of each format in terms of players sold will be determined much more simply by price relative to the other rather than by a combination of many more factors such as movie catalog/availability, disk cost, what kinds of disks friends have, etc.

    So, which of the two types of player is intrinsically cheaper and by how much? Does HDDVD have a huge advantage in the area of cost to manufacture players?

  • Not so. (Score:5, Informative)

    by rackhamh (217889) on Monday September 18 2006, @05:13PM (#16134120)
    Once again Slashdot shows its abyssmal understanding of patents.

    This patent was not FILED August 10, 2006. It was PUBLISHED August 10, 2006. The actual filing date, shown later in the publication, is December 22, 2005.

    It may seem a trivial, but in the digital media market, eight months can make the difference between being a leader and a follower.
    • The published application was filed December 22, 2005, but it claims priority to a provisional application filed Dec. 23, 2004. So, this application will be treated as if it was filed on December 23, 2004, just over 18 months ago. (U.S. patent applications typically publish 18-months after the filing of the earliest application to which they claim - 35 U.S.C. 122)

  • How is this a step in the "right" direction? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by HTMLSpinnr (531389) on Monday September 18 2006, @05:13PM (#16134125) Homepage
    How is this a step in the right direction - a common, unified standard? While this technology allows end-user technology ambiguity, it's not solving the dual standard dilemma. We need one standard.

    Also, how would a dual-standard drive handle this if one should ever come to exist? Would the drive automagically see the BlueRay disc, the HD-DVD, or simply refuse to play because both are present (really bad design)?

    And of course, will this increase the cost to the end user?

  • These discs may open some doors (Score:5, Insightful)

    by slapys (993739) on Monday September 18 2006, @05:15PM (#16134134)
    Now studios can release one disc that is pretty much universally playable. This should go a long way to encourage the adoption of HD-DVD AND Blu-ray. If these discs become prevalent, and people realize that they could upgrade their DVD player to a Blu-ray player, and still play their last 10 movies, but in higher quality on their HDTV, they might actually consider the upgrade. As opposed to now, where people might not upgrade because they must buy NEW movies and start a NEW collection in order to enjoy what they see as "slightly" better picture quality over DVD (as well as massive DRM!).

    If I was a movie studio executive, I would support these triple-layer discs at any cost.
  • "Warner's plan is to..." "This should reflect enough light..." "...to read it okay." "But it should also..." I'm not even sure they believe it'll work either with as much speculative wording as that.
  • The only way either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD is going to gain enough momentum to become a standard is if they release it an a non obtrusive way. Most people simply wont spend the money on the new equipment needed and there is a strong reluctance to having to "upgrade" their movies to a new "standard" this give an option for those who might see a desire for HD support down the road without having to make a full commitment. I know that I would probably pay a few dollars more for the option of having the higer form

  • Designing in the margins of a older spec -- NOT! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by kclittle (625128) on Monday September 18 2006, @05:17PM (#16134151)
    "Warner's plan is to create a disk with a Blu-ray top layer that works like a two-way mirror. This should reflect just enough blue light for a Blu-ray player to read it okay. But it should also let enough light through for HD-DVD players to ignore the Blu-ray recording and find a second HD-DVD layer beneath."

    Oh, this sounds like just a wunnerful guarantee of problem-free operation on all the drives, Blu-ray or HD-DVD, that were designed and produced with really tight tolerances before this mutant format was conceived. No problems with marginal signals at all, nosireee, we promise.
    -k
    • I had somewhat bad experience with regular double-sided DVD disks lately - several I bought were warped resulting in unplayable areas. Does anyone else have the same experience ?
    • Yeah, see, none of that is a real problem because there are so few Blu-Ray/HD-DVD devices on the market. Believe me, there were DVD players produced in the early days that have huge problems with "modern" dual-layer DVDs. Even my Zenith, produced two years after DVD's debut, could barely handle some discs released towards the end of 2000 (and later, of course).

      Anyone who has bought (or will buy over the next year) a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD device should be an early adopter educated enough to know that a coup
  • It seems like 2 markets were formed when the companies couldn't agree on one HD disk standard. Some of the same companies that couldn't agree are now going to step in with disks that work in both markets. Kind of lame.
    I guess what I am saying is that if there was only BluRay, there would be no need for a disk that had BluRay, HDdvd and DVD. Convenient.
  • for next-gen media.

    If one studio attempts to license the proposed CD format, how will it get made in a low cost manner? More specifically, you will need at least one manufacturer to build the machine to burn the media on a large scale.

    Who in their right mind will build the production equipment for a -single- studio owned technology? Say they don't make the manufacturer pay extortion, what cd production house will invest in the hardware for a -single- studio?

    At this point some joker must have the patent fo
  • Underneath drm formats some standards are used.
    But this matters very little since those standards are hidden to the consumer or third parties.

    The result is a non-standard format.

    Only with a near monopoly can a non-standard survive.

    Normally, if company 'A' sells proprietary music files, and company 'M' sells the the same music in another non-standard format, and company 'X' sells similar media, company 'X' will win.

  • HV-DVD, Blu-Ray, DVD all on one disc. Cool.

    But with the studios and RIAA/MPAA being the way they are, you will be licensed to view/listen to only one format.

  • I can't help but wonder (Score:5, Insightful)

    by hurfy (735314) on Monday September 18 2006, @05:44PM (#16134340)
    Just what the shelf life of these would be. Assuming it works and they figure out how to press the disk it sounds VERY touchy.

    How much of a scratch would it take to mangle the BluRay data that is being read off this semi-transparent layer. I thought those were pretty sensitive to start with.

    How about the stability? Will any of the optical properties change over time of any of the several compononts involved? Will your new Disney disc last til your kid is out of elementary school?

    All sounds like trouble waiting to happen to me.
    Especially as the patent included a lot of SHOULDs to start with :(

    oh well, pretty much a mental exercise as i am not going for either one for quite some time.
  • Such an obvious way to make a consumer pay extra unnecessarily will help kill the next gen formats. And I think that's a good thing.
  • I call your triple-standard player and raise you a quintuple-standard BluRay/HDDVD/DVD/CD/floppy disk hybrid.

    Bonus: If you punch a hole in the lower right corner, you instantly get double the storage!

  • Wow (Score:4, Insightful)

    by db32 (862117) on Monday September 18 2006, @05:50PM (#16134365) Journal
    So this actually looks like one of the first articles on slashdot that actually covers a real patent. Not some stupid lame one-click, conjugation, whatever other simple and obvious nonsense. This format for these disks actually seems fairly patent worthy.

  • Doesn't that mean paying two royalties? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by shotgunefx (239460) on Monday September 18 2006, @05:55PM (#16134397) Journal
    One for BluRay, one for HD-DVD?

  • Pfft, what I'M waiting for is.... (Score:3, Funny)

    by svunt (916464) on Monday September 18 2006, @06:37PM (#16134610) Homepage Journal
    is a 12" vinyl record..on one side, backed by a laserdisc with an SACD embedded into its centre. When I buy one, it will come with a complimentary sample of the new "minidisc within a betamax" unit. Sweet.

  • shooting self in foot (Score:5, Interesting)

    by gsn (989808) on Monday September 18 2006, @07:18PM (#16134819)
    The major studios might have been able to control piracy by phasing out DVDs and using BluRay or HD-DVD with HDCP (and BD+ or whatever they are calling it today) since no one has convincingly broken HDCP yet (not that I think this won't happen). The hardware control and the key revocation actually gave them a fighting chance technologically.

    This move is shooting themselves in the foot - lots of people on /. have said that the quality on DVDs is good enough and they wont upgrade - I won't because I'm a poor grad student who cannot afford to spend a 1000+ bucks on a HDTV because in the end its still a TV. Even if HDCP isn't broken they've left a gaping hole because CSS certainly is and so people can buy these combo discs and still pirate the DVD versions of movies using their DVD-RW drives like they are doing now.

    Ofcourse they are caught between a rock and a hard place - consumers don't want to upgrade from existing equipment that many of them think is good enough and the stuios want consumers to upgrade so that they can sell the same content again in a new format and control piracy more effectively - thus the combo disc. Ultimately the worst case scenario is people like the combo discs so they cant stop piracy and people still choose not to upgrade, and they have to sell these things at prices similar to regular dvds now or people won't buy it. I suspect this will likely happen if they implement this.

      • Fuck Everything, We're Doing Five Platters (Score:4, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 18 2006, @05:26PM (#16134213)
        Would someone tell me how this happened? We were the fucking vanguard of disk drives in this country. The Seagate Cheeta was the disk to own. Then the other guy came out with a two-standard disk. Were we scared? Hell, no. Because we hit back with a little thing called the ST-506. That's two-standards and an extra channel. For speed. But you know what happened next? Shut up, I'm telling you what happened--the bastards went to three standardss. Now we're standing around with our cocks in our hands, selling two platters and an extra channel. Speed or no, suddenly we're the chumps. Well, fuck it. We're going to five platters.

        Sure, we could go to three platters next, like the competition. That seems like the logical thing to do. After all, three worked out pretty well, and four is the next number after three. So let's play it safe. Let's make a wider channel and call it the Cheeta turbo. Why innovate when we can follow? Oh, I know why: Because we're a business, that's why!

        You think it's crazy? It is crazy. But I don't give a shit. From now on, we're the ones who have the edge in the multi-side game. Are they the best a man can get? Fuck, no. Seagate is the best a man can get.

        What part of this don't you understand? If two sides is good, and three sides is better, obviously five sides would make us the best fucking disk that ever existed. Comprende? We didn't claw our way to the top of the disk game by clinging to the two-platter industry standard. We got here by taking chances. Well, five platters is the biggest chance of all.

        Here's the report from Engineering. Someone put it in the bathroom: I want to wipe my ass with it. They don't tell me what to invent--I tell them. And I'm telling them to stick two more sides in there. I don't care how. Make the platters so thin they're invisible. Put some on the outside. I don't care if they have to cram the fifth platter in perpendicular to the other four, just do it!

        You're taking the "safety" part of "safety disk" too literally, grandma. Cut the strings and soar. Let's hit it. Let's roll. This is our chance to make disk history. Let's dream big. All you have to do is say that five platters can happen, and it will happen. If you aren't on board, then fuck you. And if you're on the board, then fuck you and your father. Hey, if I'm the only one who'll take risks, I'm sure as hell happy to hog all the glory when the five- platter disk becomes the storage tool for the U.S. of "this is how we shave now" A.

        People said we couldn't go to three. It'll cost a fortune to manufacture, they said. Well, we did it. Now some egghead in a lab is screaming "Five's crazy?" Well, perhaps he'd be more comfortable in the labs at Toshiba, working on fucking electrics. Rotary platters, my white ass!

        Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we should just ride in Sony's wake and make shitty game consoles. Ha! Not on your fucking life! The day I shadow a penny-ante outfit like Sony is the day I leave the disk game for good, and that won't happen until the day I die!

        The market? Listen, we make the market. All we have to do is put her out there with a little jingle. It's as easy as, "Hey, saving with anything less than five plattess is like scraping your beard off with a dull hatchet." Or "You'll be so smooth, I could snort lines off of your ide cable."

        I know what you're thinking now: What'll people say? Mew mew mew. Oh, no, what will people say?! Grow the fuck up. When you're on top, people talk. That's the price you pay for being on top. Which Seagate is, always has been, and forever shall be, Amen, five platters, sweet Jesus in heaven.

        Stop. I just had a stroke of genius. Are you ready? Open your mouth, baby birds, cause Mama's about to drop you one sweet, fat nightcrawler. Here she comes: Put another channel on that fucker, too. That's right. Five platters, two channels, and make the second one SCSI. You heard me--the second strip is SCSI. It's a whole new way to think about data storage. Don't question it. Don't say a word. Just key the music, and call the chorus girls, because we're on the edge--the razor's edge--and I feel like dancing.

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