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Advocating Dvorak
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Tue Jun 14, 2005 07:55 AM
from the no-not-the-columnist-who-thinks-i'm-his-nemesis dept.
from the no-not-the-columnist-who-thinks-i'm-his-nemesis dept.
zeroweb writes "A group of three faithful Dvorak promoters have launched new website at DvZine.org. The big thing here is a Comic (available in print, pdf and html) describing the history of QWERTY and Dvorak, how and why one should make the switch, and real-life stories of the converted.
If you are thinking about making the switch, this could push you over the edge. My favorite line: "It could be the difference between working in your garden at 70 or wearing wrist braces at 40." As someone who started wearing wrist braces at 23, I couldn't agree more - I read this comic, changed my keyboard layout and have been happier ever since."
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Dvorak Layout Claimed Not Superior To QWERTY 663 comments
Michael Pyne sends in an article published at Reason Online 13 years ago, dismantling the entrenched myth that the Dvorak keyboard layout is a superior technology to QWERTY. The odd thing is that this 13-year-old article recaps research (refereed and published in a respected economics journal) 19 years ago. While we have discussed Dvorak many times over the years, I don't believe we have dug into this convincing-sounding refutation of the Dvorak mythology. The article is in the context of arguing against the conventional wisdom of "first mover advantage" — that the first product to market gains a large entrenchment benefit, such as VHS vs. Beta, MS-DOS vs. anything, etc. It's very much a pro-markets piece.
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funny you should say that (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, please! (Score:4, Funny)
Here they come.
The Dvorak proofs.
The debunking of the proofs.
The debunking of the debunkings.
The debunking of those who debunked the debunkers.
[Insert Monty Python break here]
The only solution to YADS is tasteless humor.
Oh, wait. Even better: a compromise. All new Amigas will ship with Dvorak keyboards.
There.
Everyone happy and free of debunked debunkers?
hawk
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Oh, That Dvorak! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Not that Dvorak either! (Score:4, Funny)
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Dvorak is very good (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Dvorak is very good (Score:5, Funny)
Even more fun. Imagine how silly people will feel when they sit down at your keyboard and try to type something.
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Re:Dvorak is very good (Score:5, Funny)
With Qwerty or Dvorak, you have to use the same keys regardless of what the program is you're using them with. The "Q", for example, on a QWERTY keyboard, is always in the top left (on English language layouts. It's "A" that's in the top left for French "AZERTY" keyboards.)
However, with Gentoo, the keys move around. So, for example, in OpenOffice.org, because I have to type "O" a lot, the "O" is right there where the "D" is in a QWERTY keyboard. The "Q", on the other hand, is assigned to F2, because I rarely need it.
Some have criticised the layout, arguing that the 5% efficiency increase is more than offset by the fact that you have to spend a day compi^H^H^H^H^Hlearning the new layout. This may be a problem for some people, but if you do a lot of typing, it's obvious that this is much more efficient. And besides, you can always let it run overnight, with you learning how to type using the new layout when you'd normally be wasting time asleep.
You should try it. I find the best performance is with -funroll-fingers -O102.
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Re:Dvorak is very good (Score:5, Funny)
It sounds a bit similar to that new Microsoft keyboard, you know the one where it moves the keys round depending on which are most frequently used, and begins to hide those that haven't been used for a while.
Although it's probably a bit too revealing of (personal, as opposed to Unicode) character for some - a colleague's keyboard consists solely of the keys 'O', 'M', 'G', 'W', 'T' and 'F'.
I suppose it could be worse - the manager's keyboard is now a completely blank piece of plastic.
(Spider Blog: The spider has gone! It had made itself at home on a bank statement for several hours, but after I came back from lunch it was no longer there. More updates as things happen!)
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Re:Dvorak is very good (Score:4, Interesting)
it IS very good -- i switched back in 1997 over christmas.
although the first two weeks were hell, having all the vowels
and the most statistically frequent consonants on the home row
really increases typing speed and comfort.
the things that have helped most with reducing RSI are:
1) using the dvorak layout for typing.
2) reprogram mouse to eliminate double-clicks, and
3) learning to play a musical instrument (e.g. bass guitar)
to force the muscles into definite 'other' contortions
than are required by using a mouse (handwriting would
also work).
(btw - this is typed using a dvorak layout).
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Re:Dvorak is very good (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Dvorak is very good (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't understand this mentality. If someone convinces you something works, why would you decide to discard that simply because the person who convinced you turned out to be annoying? Either he's right or wrong. Why does the attitude of the messenger enter into it?
I agree that zealots are annoying. That doesn't mean they're always wrong, though.
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Re:Dvorak is very good (Score:4, Insightful)
The dvorak-advocates can blather all about languages and how one can speak several without losing proficiency in one, but muscle memory is a TOTALLY different league and is a bitch to relearn.
Sure, I can remap the keys so they have their "qwerty" equivs, but then I might as well stay with qwerty then.
And no, I'm NOT switching to emacs. They can pry my beloved vi from my cold dead fingers.
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Re:Dvorak is very good (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Dvorak is very good (Score:3, Funny)
Don't feel bad. At least you displayed patience and tenacity by giving it a whole 'few days' worth of effort.
Only going to work if it became standard (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been working in IT for a good number of years now without needing wrist braces, all the while using QWERTY. I know a lot of other people who haven't suffered this fate. I'm not saying no one has ever had this problem but when you exaggerate risks like this its called FUD/scaremongering.
Re:Only going to work if it became standard (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Only going to work if it became standard (Score:3)
Do you know what "exponential" means? Dvorak sounds cool and I might try it, but I have a REALLY hard time believing the above. I can currently type around 50 wpm, so if I switch to Dvorak I should be expecting at least 2500 wpm?
Re:Only going to work if it became standard (Score:5, Insightful)
A couple of points I can add to the discussion:
- I found that, while Dvorak may be 'faster', flat-out typing speed is rarely the limiting factor when I am working, if I'm writing code or any text that I want to sound decent my fingers usually have to pause occasionally while my brain catches up. If I was transcribing large blocks of other people's writing typing speed would be more important, but for me there wasn't that much difference.
- Other people's keyboards- this is the reason that I switched back to Qwerty. It's all very well to be happily chugging along at 80wpm on your own machine, but when you have to sit down at your boss's desk for 2 minutes to look into a problem, and you're slowly hunt-and-peck typing, it's rather embarassing. Even if you install the drivers and/or switch keyboards on their machines, it's a pain for them if you forget to switch back ("What did you do to my fing keyboard?")
- Qwerty is a standard, and as anyone who uses the internet knows, sometimes a sub-optimal standard is better than a superiour non-standard solution.
I would only recommend the switch to Dvorak if: A) the geek factor of using an alternate layout is enough that the problems are worth it, or B) if you rarely have to switch machines, and you do a lot of typing at full speed, or C) you have room in your head for 2 keyboard layouts at once, and can switch at will.Parent
Re:Only going to work if it became standard (Score:5, Insightful)
Typing speed for coding is vastly overrated.
Jedidiah.
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Re:Only going to work if it became standard (Score:5, Interesting)
First learned to type on my Commodore 64 when I was 10.
My first year of typing class in high school, I typed 70 WPM while my typing teacher typed 65 WPM.
My second year of typing class, I was up to about 90 WPM.
My third year of typing class, I was up to about 110 WPM.
I'm a 33-year old professional programmer with 15 years professional experience and now type over 130 WPM. I've never had a single problem with wrist or hand pain until about 3 months ago. I started having all kinds of numbness in my hand and pain in my wrist. Needless to say, I freaked out. The problem went from nothing to seriously impeding me in a matter of days.
Considering I never believed that carpal tunnel syndrome or other wrist problems existed previously, I was quite surprised. After a few weeks with fiddling with various things (using wrist straps at night, using Microsoft Natural Multimedia keyboard, taking B vitamins, etc.) I'm now symptom free. Pretty much the only thing I do now is use the MS Natural keyboard both at work and home and that seems to keep any problems at bay.
The bottom line is, just because you don't have any symptoms now doesn't mean that you won't sometime soon. Trust me, you'll be quite surprised if it happens.
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Re:Only going to work if it became standard (Score:4, Interesting)
That kind of thing has happened to me on occasion, too.
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Re:Only going to work if it became standard (Score:5, Insightful)
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3 years of typing class? (Score:4, Funny)
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in Mac OS X... (Score:3, Interesting)
Also, I still use Qwerty keyboards fine in the labs here. It's not true that Dvorak typists lose every ability to type with Qwerty, as shown by the fact that many of us do both. Typing on multiple keyboard layouts is as feasible as speaking multiple languages, or learning multiple operating systems.
"Comic" (Score:3, Interesting)
I made the switch years ago (Score:5, Funny)
Staying away for now. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Staying away for now. (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe it was the practice in both layouts at the same time while learning, but I can switch between layouts pretty easily. I'll make a few mistakes in QWERTY at first, but I'll be up at a moderately fast pace soon enough. Switching back to Dvorak is a much faster change.
You'll definitely slow down at first while learning, but
The best answer is in TFA itself! (Score:5, Funny)
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So.... who wants to tell him? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:So.... who wants to tell him? (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:So.... who wants to tell him? (Score:4, Informative)
1.) The keys didn't jam because of speed. They jammed because they were CLOSE to one another physically; the impact head on the typewriter was related in position to the location of the key on the keyboard. Simple mechanics.
2.)By putting two letters that are often side by side (e.g. si, ti, to,an, qu, th, etc) on opposing sides of the keyboard you also made it such that the impact heads would be 'coming in' from the left and right sides, and not both from the left side or both from the right.
By doing this you prevented, in most case, two letters trying to be in the same place at the same time -- which almost invariably caused a jam on the lever-arm type-writers. And yes, I've used one.
This does not mean the keyboard was meant to slow you down. It wasn't. I was used to speed up typing.
So, please, kill the keyboard FUD and just use whatever you bloody want to.
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Crackpots? (Score:5, Insightful)
Whatever (Score:3, Interesting)
I already type about as fast I need to and when typing text (like this), I'm held up more by thinking about what I want to say than the keyboard.
I've been programming for 26 years (and obviously typing that long) and I've never had any wrist problems. I think part of that is because I never learned to type "correctly." I don't hold my hands in awkward positions and make sure they stay centered properly. I don't use certain fingers for certain keys. Whichever finger can get to the key most comfortable is the one that goes. For example, right now, I'm noticing that my right middle finger is doing more typing than any other (except the right thumb which is hitting the space bar), but when I shift my position or rotate my chair a bit, that'll all change.
I think what we need to advocate is that people stop taking typing classes and learning to put their hands in completely unnatural positions. Then it won't matter if you're using QWERTY, Dvorak, or whatever.
DVORAK for real world, SysAdmin/Programming uses? (Score:5, Insightful)
These words often have none or few vowels.
One key line in the comic:
"Come on! How often do you type a semi-colon??? It's a wasted key! On the home row no less!"
Guess what
Honestly, it would be amusing to see how DVORAK stacks up, when programming and sysadmin tasks are taken into account. DVORAK could be a detrement in these cases...
Re:DVORAK for real world, SysAdmin/Programming use (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:DVORAK for real world, SysAdmin/Programming use (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:DVORAK for real world, SysAdmin/Programming use (Score:5, Interesting)
Dvorak: Total strokes are 14613 and total distance is 19593.6341607972.
QWERTY: Total strokes are 14869 and total distance is 26349.32260203948.
So, there you have it. If you're a UNIX admin who uses QWERTY, you are moving your fingers around 34% more than a Dvorak administrator, at least if you're using commands similar to mine.
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Dvorak might be good for your health (Score:3, Informative)
My findings (Score:5, Interesting)
As someone who does a lot of typing and is willing to spend a lot of time and money on ergonomic stuff (because I'm lazy and stupid), I have typed on a lot of strange things over the years to a pretty high rate of wpm. My findings have been:
1 -- The shift from Dvorak to Qwerty did not greatly increase my speed or accuracy. It made me a bit more comfortable, but learning it was total torture for about 2 months.
2 -- Learning Dvorak does not mean you forget Qwerty. I can flip between them now -- in fact, the varying placement of the shift key gives me more trouble.
3 -- None of these layouts is designed for programming in curly-brace languages
4 -- The difference in using a well-shaped keyboard (KINESIS!) is much greater than that between different letter key layouts.
5 -- Much of the hand strain I have suffered has to do with reaching for nonletter keys (cursor keys, and the backspace key) -- fixed by a Kinesis, but not by Dvorak.
6 -- Habits and posture (not resting hand on the keyboard etc) count for about as much as the ergonomics of the actual keyboard.
My suggestion therefore is: first fix your posture and find a way to stop reaching around for the backspace and arrow keys. If you crave more efficiency, get a kinesis. If you STILL demand utter total perfection, try Dvorak, but by that point you will be putting in a fair bit of work for what you gain.
Other people's mileage may, of course, vary. There's no doubt that Dvorak is more efficient and comfy -- but there's a serious cost/benefit calculation to be made.
P.S. Yay for Kinesis.
Mirror here (Score:3, Informative)
Have a mirror [mcgroarty.net].
BS and all (Score:3, Interesting)
Myself I have been behind a keyboard for nearly 25 years, my Mother 45 years, and my Father some 40 years.
NONE Have any wrist issues, I have even broken mine in both motorcycle and surfing accidents (no no at the same time) so one would THINK that would make me more suceptible ?
I have spoken with 3 doctors about just this issue aws my one son has a genetic and severe bone disease, he is at age 13 suffering osteopenia and rickets and his wrists suffer the worst.
The answer in people who DO NOT have defects like my son ? Its how your wrists are slept on, do you curl your wrists up under your head when you sleep (a question to rep motion sufferers) If you do I would seriously consider not, a coworker compalined about these issues and I told them what doctors had told me , guess what 3 weeks later he thanked me and said his wrists never felt better
Its not from typing its from SLEEPING
Dvorak sucks if you're not American. (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem is support. Keymaps with "native" characters. On install you see a whole list of keymaps for different countries, but all of them are variants of QWERTY, be it QWERTZ, AZERTY or similar. A non-US Dvorak is a rare. At one time I thought about switching. In Polish we have a bunch of extra characters that are laid out in pretty obvious manner - all are derivatives of some english characters and pressing the alt+original character produces the extra one, alt+o=ó etc. Pretty simple? Yes, and could be easily ported to Dvorak. But it wasn't. I'm left out in the cold, no Dvorak-PL for me.
Studies on Dvorak - the patent holder (Score:4, Interesting)
Starting at page 8:
The QWERTY design is reputed to be far inferior to the "scientifically" designed Dvorak keyboard, which allegedly offered a 40 percent increase in typing speed. Supposedly, the Navy conducted experiments during World War II demonstrating that the costs of retraining typists on the new keyboard could be fully recovered within 10 days. The story is claimed to validate path dependence: no typists learn Dvorak because too many others use QWERTY, which increases the value of QWERTY all the more.
That is an ideal example because the number of dimensions of performance is small, and in those dimensions, the Dvorak keyboard appears overwhelmingly superior. Yet upon investigation, the story appears to be based on nothing more than wishful thinking and a shoddy reading of the history of the typewriter keyboard. The QWERTY keyboard, it turns out, is about as good a design as the Dvorak keyboard and was better than most competing designs that existed in the late 1800s when there were many keyboard designs maneuvering for a place in the market.
Ignored in the stories of Dvorak's superiority is a carefully controlled experiment conducted under the auspices of the General Services Administration in the 1950s comparing QWERTY with Dvorak. That experiment contradicted the claims made by advocates of Dvorak and concluded that retraining typists on the Dvorak keyboard made no sense. Modern research in ergonomics also finds little advantage in the Dvorak keyboard layout, confirming the results of the GSA study.
So on what bases were the claims of Dvorak's superiority made? Critical examination shows that most, if not all, of the claims of Dvorak's superiority can be traced to the patent owner, August Dvorak. His book on the relative merits of QWERTY and his own keyboard is about as objective as a television infomercial. The wartime Navy study turns out to have been conducted under the auspices of the Navy's chief expert in time-motion studies--Lt. Comdr. August Dvorak--and the results of that study were clearly fudged. There is far more to the story, but it all leads to the conclusion that the QWERTY story qualifies as no better than a convenient myth.
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Footnote 11 from the above excerpt:
For a full debunking of the QWERTY myth, see S. J. Liebowitz and S. E. Margolis, "Fable of the Keys," Journal of Law and Economics 33 (1990): 1-25.
Cato institute hmm (Score:4, Interesting)
While I am myself kind of lukewarm on Dvorak (as you can see from my other post), I do feel it should be pointed out that Liebowitz and Margolis were market-forces fanatics who were trying to show that market forces are never wrong and that 'path dependance' (ie an inferior solution becoming standard because it has early support) does not exist -- a rather questionable thesis to say the least.
How anyone managed to make a political/ideological discussion out of keyboard ergonomics is beyond me, but apparently at the Cato Institute you can find people who are just _that_ messed up
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Dvorak Learning Resources (Score:5, Informative)
Dvorak Assistant [clabs.org] - Lets you change the Windows keyboard layout without administrator access. Useful for school lab computers.
Free Dvorak Tutor Software
KP Typing Tutor [fonlow.com] (Windows)
GNU Typist [gnu.org] (*nix)
Online Dvorak Tutorials
A Basic Course in Dvorak [gigliwood.com] - No frills tutorial, just make sure you repeat the lessons until you're actually proficient. You won't learn anything drilling through them only once.
dvorak.nl tutorial [dvorak.nl] - Very slick, remaps the keys for you if you want (convenient if you can't use Dvorak Assistant). Non-english languages available. Works better for experienced Dvorak typists.
Yes, of course (Score:5, Informative)
On this page http://www.koniaris.com/dvorak/ [koniaris.com] there is a discussion about distance of finger movement. The test document was the Unabomber's Mannifesto. The results:
* Typing the Unabomber Manifesto in QWERTY costs about 5.7km (XY).
* Typing the Unabomber Manifesto in Dvorak costs about 3.3km (XY).
In terms of planar movement Dvorak is more efficient. Then, for the pain standpoint, one must decide for themselves if moving up a row (above home row) is more comfortable, or would one rather move down a row. Personally I hate that bottom row - it compounds what rock climbing does to my wrists. I am much more pain-free on Dvoark, and I still have the ability to switch mid-sentance back to qwerty and not think about it, making other peoples' computers easy.
There are a ton of studies of varying levels of scientific valitidy. This was my first decent result of quick google search. The bottom line is it's thought out, and thus better, but people don't want to re-learn 'till QWERTY hurts them.
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Re:Really? (Score:3, Interesting)
Are you serious? QWERTY was designed for old manual typewriters to slow typist down - otherwise when they went too quickly the metal would run into each other and jam up the machine.
That's a myth [independent.org].
Re:Wait a minute... (Score:3, Informative)
Found some on this page http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/national.html [mwbrooks.com], as I was looking for a norwegian layout. There is a swedish layout there aswell.
The link to the norwegian dvorak layout is a bit wrong on the mwbrooks page the correct is http://www.stenling.no/dvorak/ [stenling.no]
Dvortyboard (Score:4, Informative)
www.dvortyboards.com
You get geek points just for having one on your desk.
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